Pistolero's challenge was a lot of fun in play for me. You challenge someone who doesn't want to focus on fighting you, and you make it difficult for them to attack you and it is an awesome action waster as well as damage buff. Challenge the enemy that would otherwise want to beat on your fighter engaged in melee with it. Do it from behind the cover of the bar in the saloon this brawl broke out in. Just don't challenge the awesome archer who is already in concealment and cover while you are standing in the middle of an alley. Pistoleros actually like to hide a lot too and playing cat and mouse with an enemy until you can have them flat-footed and debuffed and them blast them with dual pistol shots before dropping one pistol and going for risky reloads to finish them off fulfilled all the gunslinger ranged duel fantasy i could ever imagine. Our campaign ended at level 9 but the pistolero who didn't try to do the same thing every round, but could do several different things over the course of an encounter really felt powerful and fun to play.
That sounds really awesome ^^.
I think the difference in experience might come down to table variety and campaign-specifics here. Those particular encounters with my pistolero had few opportunities to really kite an enemy and even if you could, many were too dangerous to let come close. But then again, I didn't fully appreciate the possibilities this presents until now, at least when not necessarily used every fight like I would have treated it.
My current version basically just makes it so the enemy doesn't get the benefit as well and that you can only use it with one-handed weapons. So the opportunity for shenanigans like yours would still be there, if a bit diminished as the enemy has less incentive to attack you. Do you think that would be ok?
I think a common complaint about PF2 is that the game is very difficult and frustrating when you character has one specific set of actions that they are trying to do all the time in every encounter, and the game is much more interesting (and easier) when your character is capable of responding to the tactical situation of the encounter with different tools and resources.
That is something I'm learning more and more, yeah, at least the "interesting" part. My last character was extremely focused on one specific rotation and while that was fun, it wasn't just as often, if not more. Certainly bored me quite a bit for a few months until the end of the campaign.
You would think that it would be obvious that doing one thing over and over again wouldn't be great, but apparently that took me since the release of 2e to figure out :P
Well, in prior editions your one strong thing would be exceptionally strong and every other thing you could do would be exceptionally bad so of course it would feel more rewarding to stick with the strong thing. Evening that out is part of what makes playing on the grid way more fun in PF2.
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To lend support to OP, I also completely wrote off gunslinger and firearms entirely when I saw that they were all loading 1. I really like gritty steampunk/gaslamp fantasy settings with world war 1 technology and this just misses the mark pretty entirely for my tastes.
I know that they wanted to make firearms different from bows, but IMO, they made them different in that bows are superior/firearms are bad.
I ran a foul of this problem when I tried the investigator and it really soured me on the class. At least with other classes, I could hero point the big important roll for the cool thing I wanted to do, but with the investigator it was "well, a 7, great, that might hit, but it probably won't against this tough foe, I guess I intimidate this round, and try to aid an ally. Maybe I get cool turn in round 2? Next round, rolled a 4. What now?
I have since heard a lot of folks who have fun with the class tell me that MCing for save cantrips might really help, and that would certainly have been true for this character, even though it completely went against the character fantasy, but I did realize that I was putting too much focus on the thing I wanted to go right and PF2 just doesn't reward any character that always needs things to go right in order to contribute to encounters.
I may give investigator a second go, really focusing on skill actions that don't require an attack roll and either add spells or alchemy to the mix to help spice things up, but it is also a class I could pass on ever playing again. I was really into the play test for the class, but not super hot on the things that got changed so I started off on the wrong foot. The same thing is preventing me from ever trying a Magus. I really had fun with the gun slinger playtest and most of what I liked about it carried over well.
My experience with the sniper is that it is awesome fun if the whole rest of the party can take care of themselves, but as an additional character to an otherwise melee focused party that wants to spread damage around to all the characters and is going to constantly block your line of sight before you can get sniper's aim, then it can get pretty frustrating for everyone. I never had an interest in the drifter/vangaurd style those just feel too much to me like they should have been swash buckler variants than gunslinger variants. I guess it makes sense to bundle all the gun stuff in one class though if you know that a lot of tables want to be able to easily rule out all gun options from their games without going class by class through options to rule out.
To lend support to OP, I also completely wrote off gunslinger and firearms entirely when I saw that they were all loading 1. I really like gritty steampunk/gaslamp fantasy settings with world war 1 technology and this just misses the mark pretty entirely for my tastes.
Sounds like you want to play with a barricade buster.
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Well, in prior editions your one strong thing would be exceptionally strong and every other thing you could do would be exceptionally bad so of course it would feel more rewarding to stick with the strong thing. Evening that out is part of what makes playing on the grid way more fun in PF2.
And part of why classes that don't get to engage with that paradigm can feel kind of bad in practice.
To be honest I think ranged in general suffers from this since they have the best capabilities to turret and less access to alternative actions than other martials. TV helps this somewhat with cool new special ammo, but special ammo doesn't play super well with reloading.
I do agree that ranged classes are generally less engaging; I had a lot more fun with my Gunslinger once I started going really hard into alchemical shot, but even then I had more fun with the sword n' board ranger I started playing at the same time (player dropped at the end of the campaign so needed a melee body to finish the story).
Of course, this isn't unique to the gunslinger. Bows are even more boring because they don't even have a crowded action economy to force them to make decisions, you just roll your dice and pass turn.
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Well, in prior editions your one strong thing would be exceptionally strong and every other thing you could do would be exceptionally bad so of course it would feel more rewarding to stick with the strong thing. Evening that out is part of what makes playing on the grid way more fun in PF2.And part of why classes that don't get to engage with that paradigm can feel kind of bad in practice.
To be honest I think ranged in general suffers from this since they have the best capabilities to turret and less access to alternative actions than other martials. TV helps this somewhat with cool new special ammo, but special ammo doesn't play super well with reloading.
Yeah, ranged characters have it a bit worse as so many of the standard options - Aiding on attacks and maneuvres mostly - are functionally melee-only. Bon Mot and Demoralize are a thing and I highly recommend you use at least the former, but they also require an investment in Charisma that might not fit your character or you just don't have the space for. So unless you build for that, being an arrow machine gun is the play all day, every day.
Obviously the starlit span magus is easily number one, but other than that, I'd definitely say that ranger has that problem. You exhaust the interesting active ranged abilities quite quickly, as far as I can tell. The fighter has it to lesser extent, as even with the Hunted Shot "meta" being so strong, they get quite a few great situational feats that they have no problem picking up. Assisting Shot, Felling Strike, Incredible Aim and Parting Shot are quite neat, just to name a few. Gunslinger is probably the one that suffers least from this, but unfortunately it takes them quite a while to get there. The prevalence of Risky Reload and Fake Out (both are literally always mentioned in every gunslinger thread ever) is my biggest concern. It's like there is a gravity field at level 2 that everything revolves around.
However, there are also other classes that suffer from this. Champion gets very few active abilities in general and the emphasis on shields doesn't help. I've not played a swashbuckler, but they seem like a prime candidate for the "always one rotation" game as well. Psychic is vaguely in here, but I think the spell slots and relative variety of cantrips for each subclass keeps it relatively fresh.
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My level 1 sniper just one shot an ogre with a 54 damage crit. (Magic Weapon and Inspire Courage were involved.) Felt preeeeeetty good. I like my Sukung.
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Melee fighters can be a lot of fun if you pick feats for different situations and don't just try to force fit the same routine on yourself over and over again. The class feats of PF2 are well built to encourage tactical play and avoid putting all your eggs in one basket. But old edition logic can make you think "Hmm, Why would I pick up the swipe feat if I already have power attack? I won't use it every single encounter so it is a niche feat I don't need" and then you miss out on getting a crit against 2 foes that you knock prone and frighten when your power attack just kills one of them (probably overkilled because you only have energy runes because you envision your character as just a damage dealer).
My level 1 sniper just one shot an ogre with a 54 damage crit. (Magic Weapon and Inspire Courage were involved.) Felt preeeeeetty good. I like my Sukung.
Yeah, until about level 4 or 5, gunslingers using the big weapons are a real meme :D
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I mean "crits feel extra great" is a reasonable thematic niche for a class with top quality accuracy.
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I mean "crits feel extra great" is a reasonable thematic niche for a class with top quality accuracy.Not if its "crits are required for you to catch up to the other classes"
Agree to disagree. I think if your crit damage is going to be higher, it is only fair to expect a trade off in either normal damage or action economy.
It isn't for everyone, but niches aren't meant to be. And I've personally found manipulating my actions and positioning to maximize the chance of a crit really engaging. At least so far. We shall see how I feel in the mid levels.
The problem is that the expected value doesn't work out. Yes, crits are higher. But doing 25% more damage 10% of the time, and 25% less the rest of the time, is doing lower damage. (Just throwing numbers out here)
Generally speaking, all Reload weapons are underpowered once you account for action economy. It's why all the classes and feats built around using them add flat damage among other things. But for some reason that damage isn't scaled to weapon dice in any case, which makes them all fall off in the long run. Gunslinger shouldn't be giving +1 damage, it should be +1 per die, etc.
That doesn't mean they can't be immensely satisfying though. TBH non-crit, non-spell, ranged damage is so low for most classes I almost don't care what the "regular" damage looks like. I only have 3 fights to this character so far, but I've crit in all of them and the crits energize the whole table. Everyone gets hyped when you throw such big dice around.
I am not really arguing whether the gunslinger should get a buff or not. But the sniper is at least delivering the right fantasy for me so far.
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I'm curious who else is in your party, Morgan. My gunslinger was played alongside a Monk who was grappling all of my targets so crits came easily for me and my bandolier of dueling pistols felt great. I assume you've got a similar setup going on.
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I'm curious who else is in your party, Morgan. My gunslinger was played alongside a Monk who was grappling all of my targets so crits came easily for me and my bandolier of dueling pistols felt great. I assume you've got a similar setup going on.
You'd be correct! My kobold's brother is a free hand fighter with Snagging Strike. Though so far I don't think it has mattered thanks to my spiffy stealth modifier. The bard in the group also helped with Inspire Courage, and in the case of the ogre making it sickened 1. (I want to say with Phantom Pain.) It is a tactically skilled group of players, which helps a lot. I've also found my Battle Oracle, another build which is often poo-pooed, to do exceedingly well in this group. Teamwork makes the dream work.
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I mean "crits feel extra great" is a reasonable thematic niche for a class with top quality accuracy.Not if its "crits are required for you to catch up to the other classes"Agree to disagree. I think if your crit damage is going to be higher, it is only fair to expect a trade off in either normal damage or action economy.
It isn't for everyone, but niches aren't meant to be. And I've personally found manipulating my actions and positioning to maximize the chance of a crit really engaging. At least so far. We shall see how I feel in the mid levels.
I mean trade offs are fine, but the goal of trade-offs should be better balance, not worse.
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After seeing John Wick 4, the thing I most want for the Gunslinger is a way to effectively throw empty guns and spent magazines at people.
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After seeing John Wick 4, the thing I most want for the Gunslinger is a way to effectively throw empty guns and spent magazines at people.
Weapon Improviser.
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I'm curious who else is in your party, Morgan. My gunslinger was played alongside a Monk who was grappling all of my targets so crits came easily for me and my bandolier of dueling pistols felt great. I assume you've got a similar setup going on.You'd be correct! My kobold's brother is a free hand fighter with Snagging Strike. Though so far I don't think it has mattered thanks to my spiffy stealth modifier. The bard in the group also helped with Inspire Courage, and in the case of the ogre making it sickened 1. (I want to say with Phantom Pain.) It is a tactically skilled group of players, which helps a lot. I've also found my Battle Oracle, another build which is often poo-pooed, to do exceedingly well in this group. Teamwork makes the dream work.
Thinking about this a little more, and being reminded of this post from Michael Sayre...
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43q66&page=2?They-really-nerfed-guns-from- 1st-edition#61
I think I'm understanding what he meant with: "Even with composite bows being a bit overtuned, they're not actually particularly stronger than equivalent guns, they're just much easier to achieve optimal performance with."
Guns crit so hard that your performance is going to be even more impacted by every +1 than is usual for PF2 combat. But it is also hard to maximize those bonuses on a single character. It is easy enough to get flatfooted, but harder to get that AND frightened AND a status bonus without relying on your team mates. Doesn't entirely fit the lone gunman trope, but it is pretty consistent with PF2's overall philosophy.
The gun will technically suffer if you're fighting a higher level enemy which is harder to crit, but if your ally can make it clumsy 2 you've effectively lowered it's level.
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I feel like this is a running theme with me in these 'big complaint' threads, but I'm pretty happy with the gunslinger as is? Ours have been pretty effective and while propulsive shortbows with Dex/Strength are probably the most consistent ranged weapons in the game I don't feel like guns and a decent build really fall behind much, and I like the metagame of playing around reload (e.g. Do i take Risky Reload, what if I use a double barreled weapon to offset my second turn double reload, etc.) Now that we have Triggerbrand, and the Ostentatious Reload option from Firebrands I feel like Gunslingers and Guns are actually in a really good place.
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Thinking about this a little more, and being reminded of this post from Michael Sayre...
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43q66&page=2?They-really-nerfed-guns-from- 1st-edition#61
I think I'm understanding what he meant with: "Even with composite bows being a bit overtuned, they're not actually particularly stronger than equivalent guns, they're just much easier to achieve optimal performance with."
'Easier' is kind of a misnomer though because we're not really talking about complexity or a skill ceiling, we're talking about taking feats and hoping you have the right allies.
And even when all of those things are true, you don't really pull ahead in a meaningful way.
Just on a fundamental level I'm not sure how "If you take these specific feats and you don't pick the wrong weapon and your allies use the right abilities and your GM designs encounters specifically for you, you can almost start to break even with other builds" is supposed to be praise.
Guns crit so hard that your performance is going to be even more impacted by every +1 than is usual for PF2 combat.
I mean, a little bit, but not to the point that it radically changes the dynamic.
Also, if "guns crit so hard" is meant to be the thing that makes them (almost) worth using, does that mean even reload weapon that doesn't have fatal was just designed to be a trap?
Because that's kind of awful, too.
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Strictly speaking, arquebus will start to beat bows vs equal level enemies at net +3 accuracy and higher. However, this is 3 actions vs 2 and requires you to be unloaded at the start of every turn in order to risky reload with your first attack.
The archer in this scenario can either attack more (3rd attack, hunted shot, flurry, etc), use special attacks (debilitating shot), special ammo (bola shot, etc), aid (one for all, fake out), held items, single action spells, etc. They also don't need to time their movement with running reload making positioning easier.
The damage gains the gunslinger is getting with big de/buffing isn't enough to not get wiped out by the above. Lesser guns don't have a prayer of keeping up either.
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'Easier' is kind of a misnomer though because we're not really talking about complexity or a skill ceiling, we're talking about taking feats and hoping you have the right allies.
I think coordinating build choices with your team is a good example of advanced PF2 tactics which I wouldn't expect from newbies; it is easier not to bother with it.
And even when all of those things are true, you don't really pull ahead in a meaningful way.
I mean, a little bit, but not to the point that it radically changes the dynamic.
Well, it is interesting because you do pull quite far ahead... For a fight where you land a meaningful (ie not just overkilling an enemy with single digit HP) crit, if not in overall performance. A fatal d12 crit deals something like double the damage of a shortbow crit. When my first level gunslinger one shots a 3rd level ogre, I've ended the encounter. A shortbow mathematically can't do that... Even a max damage crit would require at least one more good hit to land. And now the ogre can get turn, and potentially massive damage kill one of your allies with one crit.
Even if I start to fall behind on a second round, that upfront spike did more to shift the battle. Gun crits just make such a big difference in any given battle.
Just on a fundamental level I'm not sure how "If you take these specific feats and you don't pick the wrong weapon and your allies use the right abilities and your GM designs encounters specifically for you, you can almost start to break even with other builds" is supposed to be praise.
First off, I didn't say the GM designs encounters specifically for me. All my gunslinger experience is from APs. Secondly, the sniper feels meaningfully different in play than the archer. I think regardless of whether it deals 10% less damage, the sniper playstyle feels more fun to me. Would I complain if it got a buff? Of course not. But I feel pretty good about it as is.
Thirdly, "jumps through more hoops for similar performance in a different way" is basically the niche most non-core classes have. I think that's OK for the gunslinger in particular, being uncommon.
Also, if "guns crit so hard" is meant to be the thing that makes them (almost) worth using, does that mean even reload weapon that doesn't have fatal was just designed to be a trap?
Non-fatal reload weapons are meant for non-gunslingers/fighters, IMO. Even the simple crossbow becomes competitive for a ranger with one feat. The harmona gun occupies a similar niche, but trades off kickback's requirements for saving your 1st level feat.
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On an entirely different note, what aspects of the gunslinger fantasy do you think isn't covered by the existing material? I've also not (really) played a triggerbrand, vanguard or drifter, so what aspects of theirs could be improved to make them more fun?
I've got quite a bit of time now and I'm looking for inspiration on what to add to my document.
So far I've:
- added slings to be equal to guns/crossbows
- added some more crafting-related things
- added a few fighter and ranger feats to the gunslinger's list (PBS, Far Shot and Incredible Aim for example)
- functionally rolled the Eldritch Archer into a series of class feats
- added a way to quickly create cover in limited amounts so the sniper isn't too screwed in a lot of situations
- hopefully de-clunked dual wielding (screw dual-weapon reload!)
- fixed the vanguard being able to waste Living Fortification's AC bonus by rolling too high
- fixed quite a few existing issues with feats, rules and equipment
- added Running Reload as an unspecific 1st level class feat
- given advice on how to reflavour existing weapons to get more modern examples (e.g. capacity pistols become single-action revolvers)
and more besides.
I would love to hear your thoughts ^^
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On an entirely different note, what aspects of the gunslinger fantasy do you think isn't covered by the existing material? I've also not (really) played a triggerbrand, vanguard or drifter, so what aspects of theirs could be improved to make them more fun?
Good question!
Drifter: consistent support for weapons and unarmed attacks. Like for example, their reload ability works with unarmed strikes too. But sword and pistol doesn't.
Drifter: their melee-based reload action maybe shouldn't provoke AoO. Sword and Pistol allows you to shoot in melee without provoking, but doesn't sort that for reloading. Again with the inconsistency.
Ways: I'm missing a "big gun but doesn't want to vanguard into melee" focus. Sniper is really focused on the stealth/precision thing, that's a bit specific.
If you're trying to pivot away from "guns are lackluster but the class pulls them back to average" by upgrading guns to the point where other classes seriously consider using them, then gunslinger needs a bit of a new angle. Because if guns are more powerful, maybe the gunslinger doesn't need to add raw power (more than to keep up with a gun-using fighter). Maybe more trick shots, using guns to support other characters, and enough social feats that you can strongly play that way.
On an entirely different note, what aspects of the gunslinger fantasy do you think isn't covered by the existing material? I've also not (really) played a triggerbrand, vanguard or drifter, so what aspects of theirs could be improved to make them more fun?
Good question!
Drifter: consistent support for weapons and unarmed attacks. Like for example, their reload ability works with unarmed strikes too. But sword and pistol doesn't.
Drifter: their melee-based reload action maybe shouldn't provoke AoO. Sword and Pistol allows you to shoot in melee without provoking, but doesn't sort that for reloading. Again with the inconsistency.
Ways: I'm missing a "big gun but doesn't want to vanguard into melee" focus. Sniper is really focused on the stealth/precision thing, that's a bit specific.
If you're trying to pivot away from "guns are lackluster but the class pulls them back to average" by upgrading guns to the point where other classes seriously consider using them, then gunslinger needs a bit of a new angle. Because if guns are more powerful, maybe the gunslinger doesn't need to add raw power (more than to keep up with a gun-using fighter). Maybe more trick shots, using guns to support other characters, and enough social feats that you can strongly play that way.
I guess I'll just add unarmed attacks to Sword and Pistol, seems safe enough. Thanks ^^
I've also added a new Way, the Way of the Skirmisher. Heavy focus on mobility and weapon-agnostic.
As far as reload weapons go, I've not made any changes except some minor Bulk cleanup and errata. And I don't plan to. The only one I've added is an advanced pistol that makes one-pistol builds not suck. I've tried to solve the problems in other ways (heh).
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Ways: I'm missing a "big gun but doesn't want to vanguard into melee" focus. Sniper is really focused on the stealth/precision thing, that's a bit specific.
TBH I feel like the Gunslinger is almost missing some kind of 'regular' way.
You have the melee brute, the stealth specialist, the sword and pistol build, the pistol performer, the combination weapon user, and the gunmage.
There's a weird gap if you want to be just good with a gun: a pistol user who isn't charismatic, a rifle user who isn't necessarily stealthy or in your face.
It's a problem I keep having players come to me with, that they have an idea but it doesn't really fit in one of those slightly too specific boxes that already exists. A lot of them end up playing Sniper, but never really feel satisfied with it.
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There might also be room for a mounted way. Pretty niche in RPGs since horses don't love dungeons. But a wolf-mounted goblin with a gun seems kinda neat. But which of the Ways serves that?
- Drifter? I dunno if you want to be in melee so badly. What is it with so many melee Ways anyway?
- Vanguard? Same
- Triggerbrand.
- Sniper? Your mount would have to get a team stealth action of some kind.
- Pistolero? Maybe.
- Spellshot? Not really compatible since you probably need another archetype for a mount.
Finally, Running Reload isn't good with a mount either.
Ways: I'm missing a "big gun but doesn't want to vanguard into melee" focus. Sniper is really focused on the stealth/precision thing, that's a bit specific.TBH I feel like the Gunslinger is almost missing some kind of 'regular' way.
You have the melee brute, the stealth specialist, the sword and pistol build, the pistol performer, the combination weapon user, and the gunmage.
There's a weird gap if you want to be just good with a gun: a pistol user who isn't charismatic, a rifle user who isn't necessarily stealthy or in your face.
It's a problem I keep having players come to me with, that they have an idea but it doesn't really fit in one of those slightly too specific boxes that already exists. A lot of them end up playing Sniper, but never really feel satisfied with it.
This is something I definitely agree with. Ironically I feel the best choice for a generic way reload would essentially just be running reload.
I wonder if they wanted to avoid something like the Fury Instinct Barbarian, where no one ever seems to want to take that one since it is so generic.
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I wonder if they wanted to avoid something like the Fury Instinct Barbarian, where no one ever seems to want to take that one since it is so generic.
...Is THAT what Paizo thinks the problem is with Fury? People definitely want the Barbarian with no weird gimmicks, they just also don't want to be punished for it with the least damage and zero tools.
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This is something I definitely agree with. Ironically I feel the best choice for a generic way reload would essentially just be running reload.
Ways: I'm missing a "big gun but doesn't want to vanguard into melee" focus. Sniper is really focused on the stealth/precision thing, that's a bit specific.TBH I feel like the Gunslinger is almost missing some kind of 'regular' way.
You have the melee brute, the stealth specialist, the sword and pistol build, the pistol performer, the combination weapon user, and the gunmage.
There's a weird gap if you want to be just good with a gun: a pistol user who isn't charismatic, a rifle user who isn't necessarily stealthy or in your face.
It's a problem I keep having players come to me with, that they have an idea but it doesn't really fit in one of those slightly too specific boxes that already exists. A lot of them end up playing Sniper, but never really feel satisfied with it.
That was exactly what I was thinking, so I've made this: (sorry for the bad formatting and yes, the advanced deed being 7th level is intended)
Slinger’s Reload - Repositioning Reload (1 action):
You are always one step ahead. You Stride or Sneak, and then Interact to reload. This movement does not trigger reactions. You can use Repositioning Reload when Climbing, Flying, or Swimming instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type.
Initial Deed - Opening Salvo (free action)
**Trigger** You roll initiative.
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You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your initiative roll, and you can Interact to draw a ranged weapon. On your first hit with a ranged Strike on your first turn, the target becomes flat-footed until the end of your next turn.
Advanced Deed (7th) - Retrograde Advance (reaction)
**Trigger** An enemy ends its movement near you. They must be within 10 feet of you or you must be within their reach, whichever is greater.
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You Stride. This movement does not trigger reactions. If you end your movement within 30 feet of the triggering target and are wielding a loaded ranged weapon, you can make a ranged Strike with that weapon against them.
Greater Deed (15th) - Shock and Awe (three actions)
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**Traits** concentrate, flourish, gunslinger, open
**Requirements** You're wielding a loaded ranged weapon
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Make a ranged Strike, then Interact to reload. Then make a second Strike against the same target. You can Interact to reload afterwards. Each attack counts toward your multiple attack penalty, but do not increase your penalty until you have made both attacks.
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The big problem you face with a setup like this is that the reload will be functionally irrelevant like 80-90% of the time, at least in my experience. If the frontliners are doing their job, most of the time you simply don't have to move much. That said, I'm fresh out of ideas on what other type of reload to give a generic Way. I already have the Bon Mot reload as a feat for everyone and I really don't want to change that.
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That was exactly what I was thinking, so I've made this: (sorry for the bad formatting and yes, the advanced deed being 7th level is intended)
Slinger’s Reload - Repositioning Reload (1 action):
You are always one step ahead. You Stride or Sneak, and then Interact to reload. This movement does not trigger reactions. You can use Repositioning Reload when Climbing, Flying, or Swimming instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type.
This is just a mite better than running reload, being able to Stride without reactions, instead of being able to Step. Isn't that just a little bit too much of a good thing?
Initial Deed - Opening Salvo (free action)
**Trigger** You roll initiative.
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You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your initiative roll, and you can Interact to draw a ranged weapon. On your first hit with a ranged Strike on your first turn, the target becomes flat-footed until the end of your next turn.
This feels really good - maybe flat-footed only until the start of your next turn? This is better than feinting or the sword crit effect. And it's not like you really need to be rewarded for taking a shot in turn 1, you were going to do that anyway.
Advanced Deed (7th) - Retrograde Advance **Trigger** An enemy ends its movement near you. They must be within 10 feet of you or you must be within their reach, whichever is greater.
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You Stride. This movement does not trigger reactions. If you end your movement within 30 feet of the triggering target and are wielding a loaded ranged weapon, you can make a ranged Strike with that weapon against them.
This is two levels earlier than other reloads. But more importantly, this is just EXTREMELY good. I don't think any class gets a defensive ability quite this good - there are some "step away after you get hit abilities", but nothing that lets you step away without provoking before enemies get a chance to hit you.
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I'm not happy with Sword and Gun. SOmething about it just irks me...
Also, I was kinda disappointed that there isn't some kind of 'can flank with ranged weapon.' for that Gun kata feeling ALA John Wick.
Well it used to just work until Paizo errated it not to work.
It is a sore point.
That was exactly what I was thinking, so I've made this: (sorry for the bad formatting and yes, the advanced deed being 7th level is intended)
Slinger’s Reload - Repositioning Reload (1 action):
You are always one step ahead. You Stride or Sneak, and then Interact to reload. This movement does not trigger reactions. You can use Repositioning Reload when Climbing, Flying, or Swimming instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type.
This is just a mite better than running reload, being able to Stride without reactions, instead of being able to Step. Isn't that just a little bit too much of a good thing?
Well, it has to be better. All Slinger's Reloads are priced as 10th level feats, according to the archetype. Running Reload is a level 4 feat (or level 1 if you ask me). Most of the time it won't matter anyway, which is kind of the problem. Either you don't need to move or aren't facing enemies with movement-trigger reactions. The upside is very situational, unlike pretty much all other reloads.
Initial Deed - Opening Salvo (free action)
**Trigger** You roll initiative.
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You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your initiative roll, and you can Interact to draw a ranged weapon. On your first hit with a ranged Strike on your first turn, the target becomes flat-footed until the end of your next turn.This feels really good - maybe flat-footed only until the start of your next turn? This is better than feinting or the sword crit effect. And it's not like you really need to be rewarded for taking a shot in turn 1, you were going to do that anyway.
If it was until the start, chances are very high you won't be able to take advantage of it or that the benefits to you will be marginal. Yes, it is very helpful to the party, but its your class feature, not theirs.
This is two levels earlier than other reloads. But more importantly, this is just EXTREMELY good. I don't think any class gets a defensive ability quite this good - there are some "step away after you get hit abilities", but nothing that lets you step away without provoking before enemies get a chance to hit you.Advanced Deed (7th) - Retrograde Advance **Trigger** An enemy ends its movement near you. They must be within 10 feet of you or you must be within their reach, whichever is greater.
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You Stride. This movement does not trigger reactions. If you end your movement within 30 feet of the triggering target and are wielding a loaded ranged weapon, you can make a ranged Strike with that weapon against them.
If you mean the advanced deed being level 7, that is a change I made to the entire class. It isn't exclusive to any Way. As far as Retrograde Advance goes, you are definitely right that it is too spicy at the moment. This was the first draft - made only hours before the post - to get a rough idea on the page. The current version doesn't have the "don't provoke reactions" part in.
I think just Running Reload for free as the Slinger's Reload is fine.
That doesn't seem like a good idea. Running Reload is very situational, priced 6 levels lower than the other reloads and easily accessible by everyone. Imagine how the sniper would feel if everyone could get Covered Reload at level 4?
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Well, that went much faster than anticipated. Here is the link for the full Gunslinger Reloaded document.
Have fun :)
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Feats available through archetypes are deliberately at least x2 the level that they are to the class itself. So when estimating that the reload feats are level 10 feats because that is when other classes can get them isn’t really looking at the inherent balance of the ability or feat to the initial class. Those are choices about niche protection, not balance.