An idea popped into my head, and now I'm curious.
If you wanted to make a martial spellcaster, is Magus the best choice? Or is there a viable reason to do Wizard > Fighter or Fighter > Wizard?
PF2's feat selection is a bit too overwhelming for me to figure this out myself, and I'm hoping some more experienced folks than I have done some thought on the matter.
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All three are viable, but there are differences.
Magus is a good martial class (maybe a bit low on HP). It also natively gets spellcasting. Magus also gets Spellstrike which has the interesting effect of letting you use spell attack rolls using your weapon proficiency and item bonuses to accuracy. No other spellcaster is as good with spell attack rolls since they don't get any item bonuses to it.
Fighter with Wizard archetype (or other spellcasting archetype) is a better martial than a Magus (higher HP and better weapon accuracy). The spell slots that they get are lower level though and aren't nearly as good at attacking with. They are good for utility and doing cool stuff other than damage (or healing) though.
Wizard with Fighter archetype will be a better spellcaster than a Magus. Much more spell slots. It will be rather limited in its weapon accuracy and HP even with the feats from Fighter archetype that boost those.
Another option to consider is Fighter with Magus archetype instead of Wizard. It will also get some limited spellcasting similar to what it gets from Wizard archetype, but you can also get Spellstrike (though only usable once per combat). Your spell slots won't be as high as a primary class Magus, but you can still Spellstrike with Cantrips or your few spell slots for good spike damage - especially considering the Fighter's increased weapon accuracy.
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An idea popped into my head, and now I'm curious.
If you wanted to make a martial spellcaster, is Magus the best choice? Or is there a viable reason to do Wizard > Fighter or Fighter > Wizard?
PF2's feat selection is a bit too overwhelming for me to figure this out myself, and I'm hoping some more experienced folks than I have done some thought on the matter.
These combinations I think would all work pretty nicely:
Pure Magus I have one of these, it works fine, it feels like mixing magic and martial, leaning a little towards the martial. You don't really feel like a 100% wizard, you sacrifice a lot for the magus stuff.
Magus => Wizard I also play one of these. The wizard side brings back the lower level spells that magi normally lose. This feels a lot more like an unusually martial wizard.
Fighter => Wizard I have one of these too, it also works well, but it's different. The martial aspect is much bigger, the magic aspect is mostly there to add some mobility and tricks to the fighter side. Notably, you can use wands and scrolls quite well. A wand of level 2 Longstrider is amazing for a normally slow-walking fullplate fighter.
Fighter => Magus I don't have one of these, but I think it'd end up similar to the Fighter/Wizard. You don't get to Spellstrike very often but you have a nice chance of critting with it. So it's more like your one special heavy shot per combat, while a regular magus is doing more spellstrikes but they don't crit as much.
What I wouldn't do is multiclass into fighter. As a wizard, you can do it, but your weapon proficiency won't improve at later levels, so you'll fall behind. And as a magus you just don't really gain much from it that you didn't already have.
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This is definitely a thread for me, but...
...this should not be in the rules area
That said, it really depends on what level you are playing up to.
From levels 1-10ish, I'd say wizard with a dedication of magus, fighter, or champion. I put wizard as the base because your going to be getting a solid number of spells. Weapon proficiency can be attained by ancestry and/or general feats as can armor proficiency. Until level 5 you have the same proficiency as other martials. Past level 10, your lack of weapon proficiency really starts falling behind to a more significant degree. Also, most wizard feats are meh and the everything that a wizard is is part of the base class and choices at level 1.
If you are playing past 10, I'd suggest straight magus, or with a sprinkling of wizard dedication. Past 10 a fighter with wizard or magus dedication is going to have spells of such low level that they are unlikely to contribute much. It is possible, but you'd have to be very clever. The magus base is going to keep your spellcasting at a relevant level while also keeping your weapon proficiency at a relevant level.
This profile is my society character that is a wizard that went champion and cleric dedication. It works well.
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The martial spellcaster ("gish") role is a difficult one to navigate, and before the Magus (and Summoner) was quite a trap IMO (other than for utility that is). If you are trying to have excellent offense as both a martial and caster, set that dream aside as the game's too balanced to let one PC be as good as more specialized PCs are in their niches.
There's a lot of good advice above, but I fully disagree with ever going Wizard first and expecting to contend well as a martial too. The only safe route is maybe pick up a bow for some bonus damage. It'll be look cute beside actual martial archers, but hey, it's bonus damage. Even then you'll likely prefer a staff in your hands at later levels (and for your money).
The core question is, when the boss arrives on scene for the finale, what do you want your PC to be focusing on? You should aim your class pick toward that as Archetypes won't catch you up to the power curve needed.
Magus & Summoner bypass much of what I just said. Magus's main trick is unloading a spell via a strike, and while this is obvious I feel it's worth pointing out since I think much of the imagery is around directly blasting when that's kinda secondary for them (though tremendous for example if that boss came in w/ lots of cannon fodder to clear out).
And personally I think dabbling in spells is far more beneficial than dabbling in weapons. I also think Fighter's a much safer (and simpler) class to begin your PF2 career with, taking the Wizard (or other) Archetype not for offense (nor counteracting), for utility, defense, and other shenanigans.
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Fighter => Magus I don't have one of these, but I think it'd end up similar to the Fighter/Wizard. You don't get to Spellstrike very often but you have a nice chance of critting with it. So it's more like your one special heavy shot per combat, while a regular magus is doing more spellstrikes but they don't crit as much.
This works very well. It costs what is a regular fighter 14 Int and 2 feats. For that price they get a couple of cantrips and one big spell strike every combat. Given that most combats only last 3-4 rounds it can make a big difference. In many combats the movement is such that you may only get the one round where you can spend the extra actions for the spell strike. If they take one more feat for some spell slots they can pick up a True Strike or two.
Anyway my fighters tend to have the feat space to do a few tricks. This is one which is pretty good.
Druids can't actually get that status bonus without using a lower level form.Another option for a martial caster is a high STR druid.
It varies with level and GM rulings on wild shape but with wild shape you can easily mix spell casting and martial activity (generally you choose one for an entire encounter).
Warpriest can fill the same role to at least some extent.
If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
They never fulfill the quoted condition except at level 4. If your gm gives it to you that's fine, but it's also homebrew.
Another option if you just want a fighter with a couple of tricks is to run eldritch archer, but this is mostly just straight inferior to a bow magus for a few reasons.
If you absolutely wanted a caster base though, I'd go with bard since they have native shortbow proficiency. Melee's biggest perks in 2e are reaction attacks and flail/hammer crit spec and you get neither as a caster base. Other casters need to use feats for bow access and are generally weaker than the bard to begin with too.
I don't have much to add. As mentioned, it depends on the specific capabilities you want and the emphasis to place on weapon vs. spellcasting.
Fighter with Wizard Dedication and Advanced Arcana (Bespell Weapon) isn't as good as magus at mixing spells and weapon attacks, but can still be very effective. An old example to demonstrate the basic concept.
Wizard with Fighter Dedication is harder to pull off because it's just easier to increase spellcasting ability than it is to increase martial ability.
Magus with Wizard Dedication* is probably the most effective choice as far as both combat and spellcasting goes.
Note that PF2 allows other ways to combine magic and weapon combat via archetypes (alone or in various combinations with other archetypes): beast gunner (Arcadia), eldritch archer, magic warrior (Mwangi), Red Mantis assassin (Mediogalti Island), runescarred (Saga Lands), shadowdancer, Sixth Pillar, spellshot (gunslinger class, Arcadia), to name a few. You aren't limited to fighter, magus, or wizard as your base class.
*- or another spellcasting class; witch might be one of the better choices with Int-based casting, the familiar, and the ability to choose arcane, divine, occult, or primal spells when selecting the patron
This is definitely a thread for me, but...
...this should not be in the rules area
Oh, should it not? I'm sorry, I figured talking about class comparisons would go in the rules area.
The big question is, what are you envisioning? What do you want?
Spellcasting + some decent martialing?
Martialing + some decent spellcasting?something somewhere between?
Uh, I'm not sure, to be honest. I'm playing a nonviolent utility Wizard right now in an Agents of Edgewatch campaign and I'm very frustrated because I built high strength, low dex to reflect the character idea (He's a wizard that lifts at the library, you see.) And I feel like I'm being punished by the fact that the game expected me to max out Dex to have a functional AC, but also demands that I spend 2 actions to cast basically any spell.
I've been trying to figure out how to improve my AC in a realistic capacity. Thought about Armor, but I couldn't find any means of gaining armor without blowing a ton of feats, and the Mage Armor spell is a piddly +1 AC unless I cast it with one of my very limited high level slots.
I was considering Archetyping into Magus, but all you get from that is Spellstrike, which isn't useful to me. Could archetype into Sentinel for Light and Med armor proficiency, but I don't really want to become an armor master, I just want to be able to wear it, so the archetype ends up trapping me more than helping me. I'm seriously considering Wrestler because I've been enjoying grappling and handcuffing people in combat, but then my garbage AC makes me very easy to hurt and my wizard HP makes me very easy to kill.
*But* if we decide to keep playing after this campaign concludes, I'm planning on making a gish for Strength of Thousands, and I'm not sure how I want to build him.
His concept is that he's an eidolon whose summoner died to permanently summon, and he's only got one arm. He struggles to speak, so I'm going to give him Wellspring Magic to mimic Wild Magic from 5e. (He's inspired by this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6q41EnhPnU&vl=en)
Basically I'm just trying to feel out my options and decide what to do. I'm *probably* going to end up starting with Magus because it's the only realistic way to have spellcasting and martial-ing from Level 1.
Basically I'm just trying to feel out my options and decide what to do. I'm *probably* going to end up starting with Magus because it's the only realistic way to have spellcasting and martial-ing from Level 1.
Bard isn't bad with the warrior muse.
Alternately, champion with an ancestry that allows you to gain innate spells and the Oracle Dedication is better at fighting (although worse at spellcasting).
Basically I'm just trying to feel out my options and decide what to do. I'm *probably* going to end up starting with Magus because it's the only realistic way to have spellcasting and martial-ing from Level 1.Bard isn't bad with the warrior muse.
Alternately, champion with an ancestry that allows you to gain innate spells and the Oracle Dedication is better at fighting (although worse at spellcasting).
Being a spellbook-user feels very important to the character fantasy, so bard feels weird, and divine magic just feels all kinds of wrong as a creature summoned by arcane magic.
Though I do appreciate the suggestions!
I'd go Maestro for a martially inclined bard, honestly. The value of Martial Performance is brought down a ton by the fact that the Bard already gets shortbow and shortsword proficiency. Lingering Composition gives you spell+strike rounds without having to give up Inspire. The payoff for warrior muse is Courageous Assault but that's level 10.
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Yeah. When it comes to AC, you rock either higher Dex with light or no armor. Or, low Dex with heavy armor. There are a few ways around that being Mountain Stance, Scales of the Dragon, and drakeheart mutagen. With the low HP that a wizard gets, sadly you can't ignore the AC game.
Based on what you want, I'd say that the Magus is the right base class for you.
Side Note: Bespell weapon and the conducting weapon property rune can add a decent amount of damage.
Probably the correct forum for this would be Advice. But having the thread in the wrong forum isn't a big problem.
Also, it looks like it was moved there already.
I've been trying to figure out how to improve my AC in a realistic capacity. Thought about Armor, but I couldn't find any means of gaining armor without blowing a ton of feats, and the Mage Armor spell is a piddly +1 AC unless I cast it with one of my very limited high level slots.
I was considering Archetyping into Magus, but all you get from that is Spellstrike, which isn't useful to me. Could archetype into Sentinel for Light and Med armor proficiency, but I don't really want to become an armor master, I just want to be able to wear it, so the archetype ends up trapping me more than helping me.
Some other options that I know of:
Use a shield. Even without shield block, you can still raise your AC by 2 points for 1 action.
Use miss chance spells like Mirror Image or Shattering Gem.
Use damage reduction spells like Barkskin or Stoneskin.
His concept is that he's an eidolon whose summoner died to permanently summon, and he's only got one arm. He struggles to speak, so I'm going to give him Wellspring Magic to mimic Wild Magic from 5e.
Wellspring Magic is only available to spontaneous casters - the ones that have a spell Repertoire. So Magus and Wizard couldn't use it. The only Arcane tradition classes that could are Sorcerer and Summoner.
This is definitely a thread for me, but...
...this should not be in the rules area
Oh, should it not? I'm sorry, I figured talking about class comparisons would go in the rules area.
The big question is, what are you envisioning? What do you want?
Spellcasting + some decent martialing?
Martialing + some decent spellcasting?something somewhere between?
Uh, I'm not sure, to be honest. I'm playing a nonviolent utility Wizard right now in an Agents of Edgewatch campaign and I'm very frustrated because I built high strength, low dex to reflect the character idea (He's a wizard that lifts at the library, you see.) And I feel like I'm being punished by the fact that the game expected me to max out Dex to have a functional AC, but also demands that I spend 2 actions to cast basically any spell.
I've been trying to figure out how to improve my AC in a realistic capacity. Thought about Armor, but I couldn't find any means of gaining armor without blowing a ton of feats, and the Mage Armor spell is a piddly +1 AC unless I cast it with one of my very limited high level slots.
I was considering Archetyping into Magus, but all you get from that is Spellstrike, which isn't useful to me. Could archetype into Sentinel for Light and Med armor proficiency, but I don't really want to become an armor master, I just want to be able to wear it, so the archetype ends up trapping me more than helping me. I'm seriously considering Wrestler because I've been enjoying grappling and handcuffing people in combat, but then my garbage AC makes me very easy to hurt and my wizard HP makes me very easy to kill.
*But* if we decide to keep playing after this campaign concludes, I'm planning on making a gish for Strength of Thousands, and I'm not sure how I want to build him.
His concept is that he's an eidolon whose summoner died to permanently summon, and he's only got one arm. He struggles to speak, so I'm going...
Basically I'm just trying to feel out my options and decide what to do. I'm *probably* going to end up starting with Magus because it's the only realistic way to have spellcasting and martial-ing from Level 1.Bard isn't bad with the warrior muse.
Alternately, champion with an ancestry that allows you to gain innate spells and the Oracle Dedication is better at fighting (although worse at spellcasting).
Being a spellbook-user feels very important to the character fantasy, so bard feels weird, and divine magic just feels all kinds of wrong as a creature summoned by arcane magic.
Though I do appreciate the suggestions!
So Magus + Wizard Dedication or Fighter/Champion/Battle Oracle + Wizard Dedication or even a Polymath Bard is what best fit for you.
Fighter/Champion + Wizard Dedication will solve your AC problem (say hi to heavy armor + shield + block) also the complete Wizard Dedication set (Wizard Dedication feat + the three basic/expert/master feats + Arcane Breadth feat) provides a good number of spellslots to provide utility spells for you and your party. If you aren't playing with free archetype variant I also recommend to be an Ancient Elf to take the dedication at first level and without need to spent a lvl 2 feat for this.
This build allows you keep the concept of utility wizard but you will loose half of your spellslots (if we consider the school spells or Drain Bonded Item as spellslot) and your caster level always will be 4 levels bellow. But you will fight or protect very well instead.
If you want to focus more in spellcasting Battle Oracle + Wizard Dedication can be a good option for you too. You will have more spellslots, focus spells and 2 different traditions to use as utility at same time that you can use heavy armors. The main problem of this build is MAD but as you want to be a utility caster this wouldn't a real big problem. The other problem is the conceptual situation of being a mixed char that uses spellbooks and this own mistical powers but due your concept, being a permanent summoned creature, mix of different powers (specially the "uncontrolled" and cursed nature os an oracle) maybe considered an side-effect from it's magical and outsider existence.
Going a bit far from your original concept a Polymath Bard with Esoteric Polymath feat could be used to keep the spellbook caster feeling. The occult powers also can be a good base of your char concept (once you don't feels that divine powers meets well) and also is probably the one of the most utility tradition directly competing with arcane in this point.
The main mechanical advantage of this caster is this is a full caster that uses a light armor. So if you add enough dex you will have a good AC and you don't need to use a lot of feats to do all this (this way you can also take an occult sorcerer dedication to take more occult spellslots but these wont interact with your spellbook).
And for the last but not worse. The Magus + Wizard Dedication. This probably one of the best multiclass integration of the game. Wizard Dedication simply completes the Magus. You use the same spellbook and DC for both and this completes the lost spellslots while you keep high fighting abilities and allows you to spellstrike giving you a very high damage output at same time you keeps a good AC. You can also improves you AC even more at same time you improves your saves and add a shield block if you choose Sparkling Targe but notice that you need a Sturdy Shield to prevent it from easily broke.
For this build I strongly recommend that you play as Elf/Half-Elf with Elemental Wrath feat if your aren't playing with a Starlit Span magus because this keeps you able to spellstrike vs opponents that have AoO like reactions without trigger it (Elemental Wrath's cantrip haven't somatic components).
The other good side of these non-fullmartial+spellcaster dedication is if that you can use a Staff to improve your utility capacity even more once that you can use one of your higher spellslot to improve it's charges different from martial+wizard dedication that keeps your max charges 4 levels bellow.
Wellspring Magic is only available to spontaneous casters - the ones that have a spell Repertoire. So Magus and Wizard couldn't use it. The only Arcane tradition classes that could are Sorcerer and Summoner.
Well, that just ruins my entire concept in one fell swoop.
So Magus + Wizard Dedication or Fighter/Champion/Battle Oracle + Wizard Dedication or even a Polymath Bard is what best fit for you.
I'll need some time to flick through these, but I appreciate the many suggestions!
For my Eidolon, Thesis, I'm wanting to be more combat than utility. I've heard blasters aren't exactly... good in 2e, though, so I'm not sure if 'combat spellcasting' would be better used on self buffs though.
Flavor-wise, I wanted him to be a learned caster, not an intuitive or blessed caster, if that makes sense. He was taught magic by his summoner, whether or not he had any natural aptitude for it. I was really into the idea of wellspring magic causing problems when he mispronounced words or what have you, but it seems that's only available to spontaneous casters, which throws that right out, because I don't think I can combine Flexible Spellcaster with Wellspring Mage, and even if I did it would give me a staggering 1 spell per day.
Also spontaneous casters feel very limited, given they don't have a spellbook they can prep from, they have X number of spells with a hard limit, and that feels poopy given Pathfinder has hundreds of spells (and will likely end up with 1k+). I suffer from the tyranny of choice.
Bard halfway fits, since they do go to college, but I can't see this guy performing. He could maybe sing in howls, but I see him as quiet. Mechanically it might work, thematically it's all wrong in my head.
Race-wise I was leaning human just because they're generic and malleable, and nothing else fits the idea of some bestial creature from beyond the veil.
For my Eidolon, Thesis, I'm wanting to be more combat than utility. I've heard blasters aren't exactly... good in 2e, though, so I'm not sure if 'combat spellcasting' would be better used on self buffs though.
Blaster caster gets an undeserved bad rap. Blasting isn't as good as it was in PF1. And you have to acclimate yourself to the idea that a successful save and half damage is still a pretty good outcome for a spell slot.
So if you can get past those perception problems, blasting can actually be pretty good in PF2. Some classes do it better than others, and Wizard is one of the better ones. Summoner is not due to the very low amount of spell slots. They can still throw out Cantrips for damage though.
Flavor-wise, I wanted him to be a learned caster, not an intuitive or blessed caster, if that makes sense. He was taught magic by his summoner, whether or not he had any natural aptitude for it. I was really into the idea of wellspring magic causing problems when he mispronounced words or what have you, but it seems that's only available to spontaneous casters, which throws that right out, because I don't think I can combine Flexible Spellcaster with Wellspring Mage, and even if I did it would give me a staggering 1 spell per day.
Yeah, at this particular point in time, we don't really have a good option in the official rules for wild magic or other types of unexpected spell results.
Perhaps there is something in 3rd party products, or perhaps you could homebrew your own based on the Wellspring Surge table. Neither would work in a PFS game or with a GM that is uncomfortable with 3pp/homebrew.
Also spontaneous casters feel very limited, given they don't have a spellbook they can prep from, they have X number of spells with a hard limit, and that feels poopy given Pathfinder has hundreds of spells (and will likely end up with 1k+). I suffer from the tyranny of choice.
Yes, and no. Other than Cleric and Druid, the prepared spellcasters have to learn their spells - and that costs time and money to get a wide selection of them. They will naturally gain a bit wider of a selection than a spontaneous caster, but not by much.
Yeah, at this particular point in time, we don't really have a good option in the official rules for wild magic or other types of unexpected spell results.
Perhaps there is something in 3rd party products, or perhaps you could homebrew your own based on the Wellspring Surge table. Neither would work in a PFS game or with a GM that is uncomfortable with 3pp/homebrew.
I'm not super comfortable with 3pp/homebrew because I don't know enough about PF2 to know if something is busted or bad. My GM might be willing to cook something up, or just modify the wellspring for prepared casters. Or I'll just have to suck it up and just do a spontaneous caster flavored as a prepared caster.
Yes, and no. Other than Cleric and Druid, the prepared spellcasters have to learn their spells - and that costs time and money to get a wide selection of them. They will naturally gain a bit wider of a selection than a spontaneous caster, but not by much.
The option to add to your spellbook by spending money or finding scrolls feels so powerful when compared to the fact that Wizards gain 44 spells as part of their class (10 at 1st level, 1 from school, 2 every level) by level 20
Sorcerers gain 40 spells as part of their class (2 spells + 1 bloodline spell every odd level, 1 spell every even level) by level 20.
And Sorcerers need to learn each spell level separately except for their signature spells, which effectively reduces their repertoire if they want non-signature spells to be accessible at low and high level.
You can switch one spell every time you gain new spells (without spending downtime to retrain), meanwhile the Wizard can just nip down to the Magic Shop, or find new spells in a dungeon. It costs money, but I feel like money is cheaper than time.
I've always felt like Spontaneous Casters get the short end of the stick because of the relative permanence of their choices, but I do appreciate that they can cast more often and more freely in PF2.
Yeah, the swap out time is the limiting factor. Spontaneous casters can learn spells the same way that prepared casters can.
You could also start a request on the Homebrew forum to see if someone knows of something that already exists, or can help you navigate the process of creating something balanced.
Yeah, the swap out time is the limiting factor. Spontaneous casters can learn spells the same way that prepared casters can.
but Prepared casters don't have to replace a spell they know, they can just add it to their spellbook, while Spontaneous caster must forget a spell to learn a spell.
You could also start a request on the Homebrew forum to see if someone knows of something that already exists, or can help you navigate the process of creating something balanced.
I might consider it, but this game is still very hypothetical. Our experience with Edgewatch has been... rocky, with the system largely getting in the way of itself. Next time we get together to play, we're going to be doing some character rebuilds and establishing some house rules to see if we can't enjoy ourselves more.
I'm not super comfortable with 3pp/homebrew because I don't know enough about PF2 to know if something is busted or bad. My GM might be willing to cook something up, or just modify the wellspring for prepared casters. Or I'll just have to suck it up and just do a spontaneous caster flavored as a prepared caster.
Curiously many 3pp content is well balance and sometime even made or supervised by Paizo ex-employers.
About homebrew content due tight balance of the PF2 IMO is easily to be done or checked. Many things in homebrew foruns are discussed if it's well balanced and many players put suggestion and use many existent resources to use as reference. Yet for homebrew is always recommended to your GM to check too.
Yeah, the swap out time is the limiting factor. Spontaneous casters can learn spells the same way that prepared casters can.but Prepared casters don't have to replace a spell they know, they can just add it to their spellbook, while Spontaneous caster must forget a spell to learn a spell.
Well, prepared spellcasters do have to replace their spells prepared every morning and forget the ones that they had prepared the previous day.
It is a common misconception - caused primarily because it does work this way in PF1 - that a Spontaneous spellcaster only knows the spells that they have in their Repertoire.
In PF2 they don't. A Sorcerer, Oracle, Bard, or any of the others can learn as many spells as they want and sit on them. Swapping them into Repertoire takes more than an hour of morning preparations, but swapping a spell out of Repertoire does not cause it to become forgotten or 'unlearned'.
Sorcerere and bards both have feats that let them get spell books. They only get to "prepare" a single spell from them each day but that is often all you need on top of your normal repertoire.
I think a wizard base that goes into fighter would work well for you.
Gonna disagree if being in melee is a primary goal. Muscle wizard is hard to make work. I'd use magus or fighter as the base and go into wizard.
Yeah, the swap out time is the limiting factor. Spontaneous casters can learn spells the same way that prepared casters can.but Prepared casters don't have to replace a spell they know, they can just add it to their spellbook, while Spontaneous caster must forget a spell to learn a spell.Well, prepared spellcasters do have to replace their spells prepared every morning and forget the ones that they had prepared the previous day.
It is a common misconception - caused primarily because it does work this way in PF1 - that a Spontaneous spellcaster only knows the spells that they have in their Repertoire.
In PF2 they don't. A Sorcerer, Oracle, Bard, or any of the others can learn as many spells as they want and sit on them. Swapping them into Repertoire takes more than an hour of morning preparations, but swapping a spell out of Repertoire does not cause it to become forgotten or 'unlearned'.
I don't think forgotton/unlearned are helpful terms. Access is the only thing that matters. If you drop a spell from your repertoire you still have access and can add it back later (through retraining or level up or the Bard feat or perhaps other methods I don't know), but you don't meaningfully "know" it when it's not in your repertoire, even if it's an uncommon one that you used Learn a Spell to make it accessible to your repertoire.
I don't think forgotton/unlearned are helpful terms. Access is the only thing that matters. If you drop a spell from your repertoire you still have access and can add it back later (through retraining or level up or the Bard feat or perhaps other methods I don't know), but you don't meaningfully "know" it when it's not in your repertoire, even if it's an uncommon one that you used Learn a Spell to make it accessible to your repertoire.
Let's pick a particular common spell to use as an example - Mud Pit.
If you don't pick to learn Mud Pit when you level up, you can still use Learn a Spell to learn it. But learning the spell doesn't put it in your Repertoire. So now it is in an odd place. It is a known spell, but it isn't in Repertoire and able to be cast. But that is a different state for the spell to be in than a different spell that you also didn't select to learn during level up or spend the time and money on Learn a Spell to learn - those are spells that are on your tradition list, but are not learned spells.
Now, the next time that you level up and gain new spell slots, you can also swap Mud Pit in to one of your 1st level Repertoire spell slots. You don't need to use Learn a Spell or make any skill checks in order to do this. You can also swap the spell out of your Repertoire when you level up and gain spell slots.
You can additionally use Downtime to swap spells in your Repertoire - swapping in Mud Pit into a 1st level spell slot. Again this does not require Learn a Spell or any cost of money (outside of the Retraining itself), or skill checks. You already know the spell.
And if you swap out Mud Pit from your Repertoire using any of these methods, the spell still remains in that learned but not castable state that it was in after using Learn a Spell on it.
If you want to use Downtime to swap in a spell that you don't know - even a Common spell, then you do have to use Learn a Spell on that spell first. Then use the Downtime to swap the spell into your Repertoire.
Depending on how the GM rules on the ambiguity, if you are swapping a lower level spell during level up, you may be able to swap in a common spell that you don't already know without having to use Learn a Spell on it first.
And all of this is different than rarity access. This example is using a Common spell. The same process would be used for Uncommon or Rare spells.
No-no-no, absolutely not.
"You choose these from the common spells from the tradition corresponding to your bloodline, or from other spells from that tradition to which you have access. "
That is for gaining spells from leveling up.
This wasn't repeated there:
"Each time you gain a level and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level. This spell can be a cantrip, but you can’t swap out bloodline spells. You can also swap out spells by retraining during downtime (page 481)."
As is this.
And I also note that it doesn't repeat the restriction of only swapping in common spells. Surely you aren't arguing that you could swap in an uncommon or rare spell without learning it first.
But what I am pointing out is the swapping out during Downtime.
Also, it seems a bit class biased to rule that the only classes that need to use Learn a Spell on common spells is Wizard, Magus, and Witch. Why do all of the other spellcasting classes get to automatically and cost-free know all of the common spells on the entire tradition list?
And as for my wording focus of the same rules, this is what I see.
The collection of spells you can cast is called your spell repertoire. At 1st level, you learn two 1st-level spells of your choice and four cantrips of your choice, as well as an additional spell and cantrip from your bloodline.
and
As you gain new spells in your spell repertoire, you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned. Each time you gain a level and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level.
Learning a spell or two is done automatically as you level up, but you additionally and separately swap them into your Repertoire.
Sorcerere and bards both have feats that let them get spell books. They only get to "prepare" a single spell from them each day but that is often all you need on top of your normal repertoire.
That could be interesting, but one spell feels... like a waste?
Now, the next time that you level up and gain new spell slots, you can also swap Mud Pit in to one of your 1st level Repertoire spell slots. You don't need to use Learn a Spell or make any skill checks in order to do this. You can also swap the spell out of your Repertoire when you level up and gain spell slots.
But you still need to spend (at least) a week retraining the spell, so it's not quite the same as a wizard who can freely plan their spells out of a spellbook, so long as they have a spellbook.
I don't really understand the need to Learn a Spell in the first place, unless you're specifically adding an Uncommon or Rare spell, though, since all classes have the same list of spells as long as they share a Tradition. Retraining should automatically include learning the spell, since you're retraining your spell choice.
I've been trying to figure out how to improve my AC in a realistic capacity. Thought about Armor, but I couldn't find any means of gaining armor without blowing a ton of feats, and the Mage Armor spell is a piddly +1 AC unless I cast it with one of my very limited high level slots.
The two options I would suggest for a high Str low Dex character would be Drakeheart Mutagen (works for anyone with low Dex) or Sentinel archetype.
Of the two, the mutagen would be easier to combine with a Wizard. You could either go for the alchemist multi class archetype or just pick up crafting and the alchemical crafting feat. Either could be made to work.
The sentinel would take better advantage of the strength, but the wizard doesn’t improve their proficiency in armor so you wouldn’t become better than Trained in armor until 13th level.
Sorcerere and bards both have feats that let them get spell books. They only get to "prepare" a single spell from them each day but that is often all you need on top of your normal repertoire.That could be interesting, but one spell feels... like a waste?
Why?
The two options I would suggest for a high Str low Dex character would be Drakeheart Mutagen (works for anyone with low Dex) or Sentinel archetype.
Of the two, the mutagen would be easier to combine with a Wizard. You could either go for the alchemist multi class archetype or just pick up crafting and the alchemical crafting feat. Either could be made to work.
The sentinel would take better advantage of the strength, but the wizard doesn’t improve their proficiency in armor so you wouldn’t become better than Trained in armor until 13th level.
Interesting, I hadn't even considered Mutagens. I figured it was an Alchemist only thing.
I considered Sentinel, but the main issue is that I don't really want anything else from the sentinel archetype, so I'd be trapping myself.
Why?Sorcerere and bards both have feats that let them get spell books. They only get to "prepare" a single spell from them each day but that is often all you need on top of your normal repertoire.That could be interesting, but one spell feels... like a waste?
I dunno, it just seems... underwhelming. I guess since it works as a Signature spell, it means it will be at your highest level, and it gets added to your repertoir, so you can cast it as many time as you can any other spell of that level, which is nice. It just seems... Like I want more. I'm greedy.
