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As of now, all APs are either level 1-20, 1-11 or 11-20.
I don't like much the very high levels (15+), I find them complicated and even if PF2 is quite a good system you see more differences in character power levels at these levels.
I also don't like much the very first levels. Mostly because you don't have many options to make your character really stand out.
I wonder why there are no level 6-15 APs? I really find these are the most interesting levels, mechanically. Don't you?
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I find all levels interesting and really dislike the idea of 10 level adventure paths being the standard.
Level 5-15 adventure paths are a worst case scenario for me though as they don't even give the option to add a low/high level ap to it to make a 1-20 experience.
My players always want to play to 20, I don't want to start at 11 and I don't have time/energy to run the number of games I do at the level of detail/quality I do without having an AP as a framework.
Imo people who want to run a 5-15 adventure would have a much easier time manually chopping out the first volume and last two of a six book AP than a GM would adding that content themselves, heck even if paizo started making level 1-5 modules and level 16-20 modules it would still be more complexity than simply removing books from a 1-20 ap imo.
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I'm down for any and all 3 parters of any range. As someone who's been teaching a group of zoomers (who are completely green to ttrpgs) how to play pf2e, having a proper campaign that also respects the reality of scheduling and real life is a blessing. Standalone adventures are just too short (if they were double the length and level range I'd consider them) and full length APs are doomed from launch. I'm almost 30 and have been playing various ttrpgs for maybe 15 or so years (which I know is not a long stretch by any means compared to many) with both stable friend groups and looser acquaintance groups. In that time I've had one 1.5 year homebrew campaign go the distance (I was a player); every other homebrew or prewritten adventure has petered out from the vagaries of life and time. Circling back to present day, 3.5 months and maybe 8-10 sessions has seen us almost finishing chapter 2 of the first Outlaws of Alkenstar book. Everyone's having a blast but focusing the attention of these kids to stay on task is a constant mission. Only having two books after this one means that finishing this campaign is an ACTUAL POSSIBILITY instead of a laughable pipedream. So yea, I'd like a 6-15 if only to have another achievable adventure path in a unique level range.
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Level 5-15 adventure paths are a worst case scenario for me though as they don't even give the option to add a low/high level ap to it to make a 1-20 experience.
You raise a valid point. But there's the beginner box for level 1-4 and Night of the Grey Death for level 16-18. So it's possible to make a 1-18 campaign with just a single level out.
As a matter of fact, lacking an AP that can happen after the beginner's box is a bit of an issue, in my opinion. AV should have been a level 4-13 or 5-14 AP. It's also more in line with the task at hand.
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Level 5-15 adventure paths are a worst case scenario for me though as they don't even give the option to add a low/high level ap to it to make a 1-20 experience.You raise a valid point. But there's the beginner box for level 1-4 and Night of the Grey Death for level 16-18. So it's possible to make a 1-18 campaign with just a single level out.
As a matter of fact, lacking an AP that can happen after the beginner's box is a bit of an issue, in my opinion. AV should have been a level 4-13 or 5-14 AP. It's also more in line with the task at hand.
The issue is having enough content to continually do that, and actually combining it into a coherent narrative is hard.
I put a lot of time and effort into tying my players pcs into events throughout a campaign (things that will gain their attention and investment) as well as foreshadowing / working on themes.
It is a pain in the ass enough to join quest for the frozen flame or abomination vaults up to fists of the ruby phoneix without it feeling disconnected. But doing that at level 4 and level 16... Paizo simply doesn't release enough content to handle that.
As I said, it is relatively easier for people to simply chop the start and end out of an AP, than to add unrelated content to a smaller AP.
Age of ashes cult of cinder to fires of the haunted city is easy to make into a 3 book ap imo.
Extinction curse, same deal with legacy or the lost god to seige of dinosaurs. Very little modification or knowledge from book 1 needed, everything can be baked in and seige of dinosaurs can easily feel like an end point with minimal changes.
Agents of Edgewatch, a little backstory from book 1 is necessary but again book 2 to 4 is a very easily ran self contained story (especially since belly of the black whale is so controversial)
Strength of thousands, this AP loses out the most but is still quite easily handled by simply working in NPCs in book 2 and starting as more advanced students. It ends before planet hopping and has a suitable conclusion. Plus the other students matter a little less than they would in the full AP so losing a bit of the early development doesn't hurt too badly.
Blood Lords, I haven't actually read this one yet just skimmed the first two books so no comment.
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As of now, all APs are either level 1-20, 1-11 or 11-20.
I don't like much the very high levels (15+), I find them complicated and even if PF2 is quite a good system you see more differences in character power levels at these levels.
I also don't like much the very first levels. Mostly because you don't have many options to make your character really stand out.I wonder why there are no level 6-15 APs? I really find these are the most interesting levels, mechanically. Don't you?
If we was talking about 3.5/PF1 or D&D 5e I would agree perfectly due the horrible progression of these systems.
But for PF2 I have to disagree. The classes have way different gameplay experiences during different level ranges.
For example:
During levels 1-3: Mostly casters and martials have same weapons proficiency with just a bit stats bonus difference between them. We see many martials using their main Strikes and completing it with some skill action while casters usually due low number of spells plays in a more hybrid mode casting and striking at same time. Also in these levels is where some classes and subclasses like alchemists and warpriests, battle oracles and martial focused druids shines more.
During levels 4-10: Most martials begins to become more stronger due the Strike runes, weapon expertise, weapon specialization, precision damage increases, some feats turns martials more stronger. At same time casters beginning to receive AoE spells, stronger focus spells and starts to differentiate from martials.
During levels 11-20: Classes specializations begins to take force, casters aren't no more good at martial fighting, unfortunately warpriests and alchemists starts to become weak when compared to more specialized classes, many classes and builds begin to overcome many of their weaknesses and restrictions like halfling/goblin rogues becoming able to hide at plain sigh, spells begins to merge debuffs and damage effects in single cast or gain enormous range or AoE, flying and excavation speed starts to change how the chars uses the environment, more monsters becomes able to use many different reactions or AoO and/or begins to use spells or effects that can exploits different players strong/weak points like saves not only the AC, characters skills becomes more specialized and unique due the more specialized proficiency progressions and due the skill feats.
In conclusion the gameplay is gradually changing during level progression. You may prefer the gameplay style of some level range but it's hard to say that are a better or worse level range in the game for everyone.
Personally I like them all. Since level 1-20 I have fun as GM or as player. Maybe my char cannot start or end in the way I must like but these changes during gameplay progression makes everything interesting and avoid the boringness.
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I just prefer 1-20 even with using free archetype as standard in my groups.
I actually find 1-10,11-20 and 5-15 to be annoying.
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I love 10 level APs because playing for several years without anyone getting a major life change has proven to be hard. And I also love the high level stuff, I think the game really hits its strides after level 7 so I think a 5-15 would also satisfy me needs though I think the 11-20s are great.
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The issue is having enough content to continually do that, and actually combining it into a coherent narrative is hard.
Well, I was not asking for a lot of them. One would already be a good start. There are already plenty of other level range APs, I just think this range of levels is also interesting.
As I said, it is relatively easier for people to simply chop the start and end out of an AP, than to add unrelated content to a smaller AP.
Sorry, but I hardly see how you could do that. APs are supposed to be played from the first book to the last. Choping them in the middle has most chances to end up with a weird campaign.
There's always the option of just swapping out creatures in an AP and throwing +x on npc stat blocks and skill DCs to turn a 1-10 into whatever range.
Hardest part would be the loot, but that's easily swappable for a +x level item. Someone should probably find out what the proper gp curve is and then just apply it as a multiplier on whatever the listed amount is.
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Stolen Fate plugs a little more neatly into some of the 1-10s than Ruby Phoenix can, and that’ll only get more true as further 11-20s get published. It’s not too crazy to imagine an 11-20 set in the Darklands that Sky King’s Tomb could lead to someday.
I’m not opposed to a 5-15 existing, but level 15 as an endpoint makes my brain sizzle. It feels like a weird place to end off.
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As I said, it is relatively easier for people to simply chop the start and end out of an AP, than to add unrelated content to a smaller AP.Age of ashes cult of cinder to fires of the haunted city is easy to make into a 3 book ap imo.
Extinction curse, same deal with legacy or the lost god to seige of dinosaurs. Very little modification or knowledge from book 1 needed, everything can be baked in and seige of dinosaurs can easily feel like an end point with minimal changes.
Agents of Edgewatch, a little backstory from book 1 is necessary but again book 2 to 4 is a very easily ran self contained story (especially since belly of the black whale is so controversial)
Strength of thousands, this AP loses out the most but is still quite easily handled by simply working in NPCs in book 2 and starting as more advanced students. It ends before planet hopping and has a suitable conclusion. Plus the other students matter a little less than they would in the full AP so losing a bit of the early development doesn't hurt too badly.
Blood Lords, I haven't actually read this one yet just skimmed the first two books so no comment.
For Blood Lords, you can cut out the final two books if you don't mind abridging the plot. You can also add Night of the Grey Death at the end if you don't mind skipping level 15.
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I think it's good for the three-book format to exist, because some stories work best if they're not stretched out far too long or across levels where the theme of the story doesn't really match the power level.
If Fists of the Ruby Phoenix had to be a 20 level arc then you'd probably spend the first couple of books in a very long training sequence before you're actually at the level to participate in the tournament. And you'd get people asking if it doesn't make more sense to just start straight in book 4.
Likewise, there are also some stories that work quite well for a full 1-20 six book epic. I think that Strength of Thousands makes sense for example, showing your rise from beginning students to not-even-every-generation masters of the school.
So extending from that, I can see how there are adventures that would make sense in a 5 level block, or a 6-15 block.
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Seconding that the Brevoy/Choral plotline feels like it could be a 5-15. It makes sense to start off a little higher level as a fancy noble of some standing, while one (admittedly quite strong) red dragon isn't exactly a threat that demands demigod-like adventurers to solve.
More 11-20s is something I'd certainly prefer in the short term, though.
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I wonder why there are no level 6-15 APs? I really find these are the most interesting levels, mechanically. Don't you?
I do.
But surely you can use some of the existing paths and just ignore the first and last books. Typically they do have a reasonable break points between each book.| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, I'd still love to see some more 11-20 APs. All of the recent ones over the last year are basically 1-20 or 1-11.
I can't repeat this sentiment enough times. Having only two 11-20 APs (including Stolen Fate) when there are more than double that many 1-10 APs (including Sky King's Tomb) is a dramatic imbalance.
As I said, it is relatively easier for people to simply chop the start and end out of an AP, than to add unrelated content to a smaller AP.Sorry, but I hardly see how you could do that. APs are supposed to be played from the first book to the last. Choping them in the middle has most chances to end up with a weird campaign.
As I said, with all the ones mentioned it wouls take minimal effort. Becuase of the way Paizo tends to write their APs this is more likely than not to be the case.
Even an adventure like Abomination vaults which is all in one location (a rarity) is something i could run as only volume 1 or 2. Having it be volume 3 only would be a bit strange, but that is the same with most APs as the final volume does tend to reference back on previous volumes more heavily.
I am not saying it is plug and play... but it would be easier and result in a heck of a lot hassle/weirdness than plugging a 1-4 and a 16-20 int a 5-15.
I am not entirely against the idea as a once off, but as a new standard I would probably drop running PF2e once I run the existing APs I am interested in.
We are in a world where 1-20 has already been sunset for now with no plans to bring it back and it will be two years before they even think of returning to the format at the earliest (according to JJ). A 5-15 would almost certainly take the 11-20 slot given their reasons for producing less of them and dropping 1-20 as a format.
You could run any 1-10 AP with characters that are already 4th or 5th level. They will crush the first book and remain a level or two ahead for a good chunk of time but it will eventually mostly level out. You could even adjust by adding more monsters like you would if you had a 5th or 6th character and that will mostly just keep the party ahead of the expected level curve, which most players wouldn’t complain about. It won’t get you to level 15, but it could turn a 1-10 AP into a 5 to 12 AP that can even still be challenging with only adding the occasional additional monster from later on as foreshadowing, or letting the players jump the rails and discover short cuts to later parts mixed in with the early stuff.
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They should have a 1-5 level "rats in the basement" adventure, a 6-15 fleshed out, world-spanning campaign, then a 16-20 "uber-rats in Abadar's basement" which is the exact same as the first one with all the names filed off and differently colored, higher level versions of the enemies.
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Starfinder has 7-14's!