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I have been hearing gossip about Paizo making Ragathiel have a "fall from grace" and become evil once more? Is this true? I hope not because that will completely destroy one of my characters for PFS. Please tell me he is remaining the same so I won't have to scrap my Dhampir character.
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Ragathiel is a Lawful Good God according to Lost Omens Gods and Magic.
I have no idea what storylines may be planned for him in the future, but for the present, he's solidly good.
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That change if it happens likely happens in the game in general, it would be very, very unusual if they would make changes to the stats of a deity during an edition.
That said, if you want more people to see this, this is likely the wrong forum (though your thread title... needs work regarding clarity and information value).
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That change if it happens likely happens in the game in general, it would be very, very unusual if they would make changes to the stats of a deity during an edition.
That said, if you want more people to see this, this is likely the wrong forum (though your thread title... needs work regarding clarity and information value).
Where would this be better located then?
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I would do either Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion or Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion.
I have no idea where you heard the rumor about Ragathiel, but as Sebastien nodted, the god's statistics are already published for 2E, and they're unlikely to change it between editions no matter what story turns happen in the Adventure Paths.
I've flagged this thread to be moved to one of the other forums.
Hmm
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I would do either Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion or Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion.
I have no idea where you heard the rumor about Ragathiel, but as Sebastien nodted, the god's statistics are already published for 2E, and they're unlikely to change it between editions no matter what story turns happen in the Adventure Paths.
I've flagged this thread to be moved to one of the other forums.
Hmm
Thank you. Had heard it a few times from a couple of people in our local group but not sure where they heard it from.
In general I feel Paizo likes to show that deities are changeable, but those changes either happened a long time ago/off-screen, or as the result of PC actions in an AP.
Since we've had a couple of flavors of ascension/redemption/trending to neutral arcs recently I could totally see them feeling its time for a "fall" arc. Though I think they would be much more deliberate/careful with changing a fairly popular player character deity -- that's probably way we've had more of the redemption style arcs -- my gut feeling is there are fewer home games (and no society games) where the evil deity going through a story arc was legal, so it had less impact on existing characters. I feel Paizo is smart enough to realize that pulling that kind of story with a generally player facing presence is the type of thing that would cause intense anger/disillusionment. And is probably something they would save for the final AP of an edition, if they were to do it at all.
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I’d be very skeptical of Pathfinder metaplot details that come from anywhere other than, y’know, the writing team.
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I tend to chalk this up to player's desire to be edgy and cool and thus think LG is perceived as an inferior alignment. Paizo shills Chaotic Good like there's no tomorrow, so its not unexpected.
You'll hear some the same thing about Iomedae falling from time to time, and its just as much fanwank/circlejerk nonsense then as it is now.
Whaddaya mean, Iomedae already Fell in 2014 :V
Y'all are talking like we didn't see a full 3 characters ascend to godhood over the course of the previous APs. They can do anything they want during the course of the metaplot, but only hardcode it for the next edition.
But to the OP, even if there is an AP that sees Ragathiel become a Prince of Hell or whatever, the APs are all in a state of limbo until things are hardcoded, so you don't have to change your Dhampir even if they do something huge like this.
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Y'all are talking like we didn't see a full 3 characters ascend to godhood over the course of the previous APs. They can do anything they want during the course of the metaplot, but only hardcode it for the next edition.
But to the OP, even if there is an AP that sees Ragathiel become a Prince of Hell or whatever, the APs are all in a state of limbo until things are hardcoded, so you don't have to change your Dhampir even if they do something huge like this.
Good, because one of the new scenarios sounds almost like it was written for her. :)
Wait, Iomedae fell? Three characters ascended?
I've missed a lot, what was all this in?
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Iomedae hasn't fallen - indeed, she dropped LN followers in the move to 2e, leaving the gnarliest of her flock behind in pursuit of proper Good.
Casandalee rose to godhood in 1e's Iron Gods. I believe Nocticula's redemption happened in one of the Runelords APs. There's a third in a 2e AP, which I'll hide behind a spoiler:
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I keep hoping that we will see the rise of Teki Stronggut (current Starstone candidate) or some other good-aligned goblin god. Teki's the proposed goddess of unlikely and forgotten heroes, which could be a really fun niche for lore.
(Note, I wrote Teki for the Starstone Hopefuls article that appeared in Agents of Edgewatch, so I'm biased here. But I still want to see a good-aligned goblin god become canon.)
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Wait, Iomedae fell?
Not literally. They're likely referencing Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth, book 5 of the Wrath of the Righteous AP (which came out in 2014 as zimmerwald1915 noted). The conversation with Iomedae that occurs early in that module is still INCREDIBLY polarizing even 9 years later, and her reputation here on the boards has only recently started to recover thanks to things like Knights of Lastwall.
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I have been hearing gossip about Paizo making Ragathiel have a "fall from grace" and become evil once more? Is this true? I hope not because that will completely destroy one of my characters for PFS. Please tell me he is remaining the same so I won't have to scrap my Dhampir character.
It's not true.
James Jacbos has did say that in his headcanon Ragathiel is likely to shift alignment to Evil and that he's personally not passionate about the character, but he also emphasized that the voices of others writers at Paizo matter a lot.
Creative Director
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I have been hearing gossip about Paizo making Ragathiel have a "fall from grace" and become evil once more? Is this true? I hope not because that will completely destroy one of my characters for PFS. Please tell me he is remaining the same so I won't have to scrap my Dhampir character.It's not true.
James Jacbos has did say that in his headcanon Ragathiel is likely to shift alignment to Evil and that he's personally not passionate about the character, but he also emphasized that the voices of others writers at Paizo matter a lot.
What's in my head is not canon for Paizo. It's only what gets published that is. I have to be really careful about saying anything new about canon here as a result, because folks often misunderstand or take things out of context, which is unfortunate in that it prevents me from being able to really take part in discussions like this.
That said... discuss away! Even if I'm not commenting, I'm often watching! :)
And for the record... if we ever DID do something that changed a non-evil player-facing deity in canon, addressing how existing players of clerics and other worshipers of that deity would need to change or adjust would be at the top of the to-do list. It's one thing to have a new deity appear (as in the case of Casandalee) or to adjust an existing one that's evil and isn't nearly as likely to have player characters associated with them (such as Nocticula), but changing a PC-facing deity, no matter how minor that deity might be canonically, would be the same disruption to play in my opinion as would changing fundamental rules about how classes work. It has to be done with care and much thought.
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It also needs to be thought of carefully because doing it in Ragathiel's case carries implication of "he falls to evil because its in his blood to be evil" :p
(I think people really often misunderstand what Ragathiel is about.
Like if we want good deity turn evil because of them being too extreme, there is already one god even more extreme whose purpose is to destroy anyone that is evil. Ragathiel on otherhand has sense of "not too evil to redeem", "good can come from unlikely places" and "not inherently evil", Ragathiel is about punishing horrible acts, not hunt down existence of evil)
I'm always fascinated at how Ragathiel has "revenge" in his portfolio, since as a LG being, we're used to calling that "justice."
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It also needs to be thought of carefully because doing it in Ragathiel's case carries implication of "he falls to evil because its in his blood to be evil" :p
(I think people really often misunderstand what Ragathiel is about.
Like if we want good deity turn evil because of them being too extreme, there is already one god even more extreme whose purpose is to destroy anyone that is evil. Ragathiel on otherhand has sense of "not too evil to redeem", "good can come from unlikely places" and "not inherently evil", Ragathiel is about punishing horrible acts, not hunt down existence of evil)
Based on what I know of Ragathiel, his nature seems to be summed up by Paarthurnax from Skyrim's question: "What is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" As the son of Dis Pater, or perhaps even a part of Dis Pater who got rejected and spun off into his own being, he has an innate spark of evil and rage and hate inside, and an urge to dominate and punish, but he spends his life refusing to allow that to rule him, and trying to channel it to nobler, more constructive pursuits. I do agree that if they allow Ragathiel to fall it needs to be for a damn good reason, not just "giving into my nature," growing silver bangs and carrying a sword bigger than he is, ranting about how he wants to put an end to suffering (by killing everything) but it would be kinda trope-appropriate for someone seen as the Patron Saint of Edgelords. :P
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As reminder, this is TRPG tradition that has for long time had Lawful Good palading sword called Holy Avenger. Calling Ragathiel inherently evil because of revenge theme is bit of odd in that light. Hell, Batman is known as avenger. We have super hero team called avengers.
Basically there is long tradition for idea of "avenging the wrongs" being a good guy thing :'D The thing about revenge is that there are multiple kinds of it and usually all variants of it are called something else.
(that and there are three of the edgy LGs and Vildeis is worst of them. Damerrich at least makes sure there are no false executions)
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What's in my head is not canon for Paizo. It's only what gets published that is. I have to be really careful about saying anything new about canon here as a result, because folks often misunderstand or take things out of context, which is unfortunate in that it prevents me from being able to really take part in discussions like this.
That said... discuss away! Even if I'm not commenting, I'm often watching! :)
James, you are not responsible for people taking words out of context. People do that because they are people. In the past week I've heard the following ridiculous rumors:
1) Pathfinder 2e sold out to WOTC because they are now publishing 5e adventures.
(Based on 5E versions of popular adventure paths like Kingmaker,)
2) Paizo is in financial trouble because they're doing an out of business sale.
(Based on Humble Bundle activity.)
These are rumors that are absurd, that anyone who did a bit of actual research would know was false in an instant.
The fact is, is that some people will willfully misunderstand everything and anything. We're human. After all, that's why the game of Telephone still exists, because messages degrade.
When you post, you are a joy to read, and you raise the quality of our discussions. Please do not stop posting.
Respectfully yours,
Hmm
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I have been hearing gossip about Paizo making Ragathiel have a "fall from grace" and become evil once more? Is this true? I hope not because that will completely destroy one of my characters for PFS. Please tell me he is remaining the same so I won't have to scrap my Dhampir character.It's not true.
James Jacbos has did say that in his headcanon Ragathiel is likely to shift alignment to Evil and that he's personally not passionate about the character, but he also emphasized that the voices of others writers at Paizo matter a lot.
What's in my head is not canon for Paizo. It's only what gets published that is. I have to be really careful about saying anything new about canon here as a result, because folks often misunderstand or take things out of context, which is unfortunate in that it prevents me from being able to really take part in discussions like this.
That said... discuss away! Even if I'm not commenting, I'm often watching! :)
And for the record... if we ever DID do something that changed a non-evil player-facing deity in canon, addressing how existing players of clerics and other worshipers of that deity would need to change or adjust would be at the top of the to-do list. It's one thing to have a new deity appear (as in the case of Casandalee) or to adjust an existing one that's evil and isn't nearly as likely to have player characters associated with them (such as Nocticula), but changing a PC-facing deity, no matter how minor that deity might be canonically, would be the same disruption to play in my opinion as would changing fundamental rules about how classes work. It has to be done with care and much thought.
Thank you, James. You are really a good person.
I really wish the changes in allowed alignments for Clerics between PF1 and PF2 had been handled with such care.
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Well, I hope nothing ever removes Ragathiel from being a good deity as I have two characters that are following him currently (My concept of Ghost Rider, a Champion of Justice that also uses a drake rifle....and a dhampir based on the 1e PFS arc where the vampire cult of Lissala comes into play).
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I think Ragathiel "swapping" is now more unlikely than ever. Even if Ragathiel as "good" was kinda debatable, he was a bit too extreme and I can see how it felt weird for one like him to be considered "cosmically good", he absolutely picked a side in the war between holy and unholy, and it sure wasn't the unholy side. I feel like Ragathiel is an incarnation of the "angel going overboard in their crusade to smite all evil" trope, and that despite the edge and possible moral dubiousnes of such character, they can't not be holy.
it's one of the case where I feel like calling these side "holy and unholy" instead of good and evil actually enrich the world, because it allow for less than ideal divinity or character to be holy as long as they stand against the "unholy" side, and for unholy divinity or character to still show some amount of virtue or moral backbone, as long as they stand against the "holy" side. While before, having a "good" god that was morally not that great felt like a complete oxymoron.
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Thing about Ragathiel is that he actually wasn't THAT extreme. Vildeis is much more extreme, but I don't mean that he isn't that bad because Vildeis exist.
Like Ragathiel is all about avenging victims and all that jazz, but his faith did acknowledge possibility of good coming from evil origins. Its more of players who keep interpreting him differently.
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I think Ragathiel "swapping" is now more unlikely than ever. Even if Ragathiel as "good" was kinda debatable, he was a bit too extreme and I can see how it felt weird for one like him to be considered "cosmically good", he absolutely picked a side in the war between holy and unholy, and it sure wasn't the unholy side. I feel like Ragathiel is an incarnation of the "angel going overboard in their crusade to smite all evil" trope, and that despite the edge and possible moral dubiousnes of such character, they can't not be holy.
it's one of the case where I feel like calling these side "holy and unholy" instead of good and evil actually enrich the world, because it allow for less than ideal divinity or character to be holy as long as they stand against the "unholy" side, and for unholy divinity or character to still show some amount of virtue or moral backbone, as long as they stand against the "holy" side. While before, having a "good" god that was morally not that great felt like a complete oxymoron.
Holy and Unholy do not merely oppose each other. They still carry absolute moral judgement.
"Sanctification
Some deities sanctify their clerics and similarly devoted followers. This gives the follower the holy or unholy trait. The holy trait indicates a powerful devotion to altruism, helping others, and battling against unholy forces like fiends and undead. The unholy trait, in turn, shows devotion to victimizing others, inflicting harm, and battling celestial powers."
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Thing about Ragathiel is that he actually wasn't THAT extreme. Vildeis is much more extreme, but I don't mean that he isn't that bad because Vildeis exist.
Like Ragathiel is all about avenging victims and all that jazz, but his faith did acknowledge possibility of good coming from evil origins. Its more of players who keep interpreting him differently.
And a great deal of that DID come from a poorly-worded obedience getting memed into "LOL, Ragathiel worshippers r serial killerz!" here on the boards. <_<