These days, I'm mostly playing my Psychic and my caster Summoner and they happen to be around the same levels. And I just realized that they are actually super close: both of them are using Electric Arc as their bread and butter spell, with a small spell list on the side to cover the exceptional cases. They fill the same role inside the party: ranged damage dealer + emergency healer + a bit of utility.
Without even thinking about it, the comparison became quite obvious. And I must admit it didn't end well for the Psychic: My Summoner is significantly more efficient. Both are Humans, with a similar level of optimization, so it doesn't come from external factors. I can now state with quite a level of certainty that the Psychic class is weaker than the Summoner class.
To make a thorough comparison:
- Damage: Both are doing similar damage when the Psychic has his Psyche Unleashed. But you can't have your Psyche Unleashed all the time. Summoner wins.
- Toughness: The Summoner is definitely in a better spot here. Much bigger hit point pool, better saves and some excellent defensive abilities available. Summoner wins.
- Spell power: At first glance, it should be the Psychic biggest advantage: Slightly bigger spell list, more Focus Spells and Points, Legendary proficiency. The issue is that you regularly end up Stupefied, which is just killing your efficiency every time a fight lasts 4 rounds (which is far from uncommon, especially for tough fights). Summoner wins because of its ability to last.
- Versatility: The Summoner is massive in versatility. Skill wise, the Eidolon helps a lot. Evolution Surge covers a lot of situations. Between the Eidolon average AC and your high hit point pool you can also double down as an off tank. This is by far the best asset of the Summoner over the Psychic. Summoner wins.
- Feats: The Psychic feats are not really good, the Summoner has much better feats but many of them can be considered tax feats (Tandem Move...). Psychic wins as long as it chooses a nice Dedication to siphon its feats on.
I don't really find anything the Psychic is better at. I find the Summoner class to be just strictly better than the Psychic class. It's not miles ahead, but still a significant difference.
I played a Psychic just to test the class as I was having hard time determining what level of power it had compared to the other casters. I can now state that it's not really a strong class. On the other hand, I have been positively surprised by my Summoner, this is a very solid class, definitely a high tier one.
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I don't really find anything the Psychic is better at.
Psychic is a much better Int-Based caster. :D
Seriously, though, even if the Summoner is "better", how is that different from other class comparisons? I'd say the Rogue is a better and more powerful class than the Swashbuckler and in my opinion any divine Sorcerer is vastly superior to an Oracle.
If you pick a specific role and compare two classes in that role, one of them will always come out on top. So you might want to give a bit more information about your characters - especially on the Summoner - since the choice of tradition/eidolon will greatly affect your playstyle. If you mostly want damage with some utility, I can totally see how the Summoner will be ahead in most situations. But if you want to go for a more support-y role I'd say an Infinite Eye Psychic is probably superior to any Summoner build I can think of. Though I'll admit I have neve played either class and I'm not super familiar with them.
So, what exactly are you looking for with this thread? Just stating your opinion? Looking for someone to prove you wrong an tell you why the Psyhic is super-amazing?
So, what exactly are you looking for with this thread? Just stating your opinion? Looking for someone to prove you wrong an tell you why the Psyhic is super-amazing?
Speaking about a game I like!
Also, I don't think we have talked much about the Psychic power level. The class has been released recently and it's distinct enough from other casters to be hard to judge.Psychic is a much better Int-Based caster.
Definitely. Mine is one, but I don't consider Int to be superior to Cha, so I ignore this difference.
If you pick a specific role and compare two classes in that role
On that I disagree. I haven't picked a specific role. The Psychic is, thanks to Unleash Psyche, a strong cantrip-based damage dealer. It's also an emergency healer (especially at low level) as it's a role that is easy to cover with its small spell list. And versatility is important to casters in general. So I've encompassed the whole class.
The Summoner can fill more roles, but mine is a caster Summoner and as such very close to any other caster.So you might want to give a bit more information about your characters - especially on the Summoner - since the choice of tradition/eidolon will greatly affect your playstyle.
My Summoner:
Angel Summoner. My current build is Adapted Cantrip (Electric Arc), Energy Heart, Ranged Combattant, Tandem Move and Psychic Dedication (for Amp Guidance).My Psychic:
Unbound Step + Gathered Lore Psychic. My current build is Adapted Cantrip (Electric Arc), Bastion Dedication, Mental Balm, Parallel Breakthrough (for Amp Guidance).
So, as you can see, they share a lot of similarities. I have put aside the spell list, as this is something the Summoner can choose, and the main attribute difference as Intelligence and Charisma are roughly equivalent.
Psychic doesn't tend to compare well to similar classes.
It's like the bard but it gets one more focus spell (up to 12 level), one less spell per level, weaker defences and nothing quite as good at will as the bards focus cantrips.
The biggest uncertainty was around Unleash Psyche in my case. The rest of the class is not stellar, but Unleash Psyche really makes a damage dealer out of the Psychic. Unfortunately, the duration is too limited. You don't have it at round 1, which is tough as it's really the round you want to unload your damage. And then at round 4, everything goes south. Most fights I've had were done by that time, but the tough ones lasted that long and it was a pain then.
As far as I know, the only niche people have found for psychic is going all in on blasting with shatter mind spam, being a rather large AoE with no friendly fire with a good damage die, good scaling and Unleash's damage bonus.
You can Unleash round 1 if your exploration activity was detect magic. Only advisable if your combat will go less than 3 rounds.
Typical combat routine is
1) amp shatter
2) unleash, amp shatter
3) amp shatter
And refocus to 3 after combat. If you can't rest to refocus often, probably best off avoiding the class entirely, but you can grab a familiar and strain mind to fill the gap a little.
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You can Unleash round 1 if your exploration activity was detect magic. Only advisable if your combat will go less than 3 rounds.
That's not true. The requirements are "You're in an encounter, you Cast a Spell on your previous turn, and you aren't stupefied.". As you were not in combat there's no "previous turn", so it should not be authorized. If you start considering there are turns outside combat, then you bring a lot of mess into the game (especially the Ready action exploits). Also, using Detect Magic as exploration activity doesn't mean that you are using it every 6 seconds, just that you are using it regularly.
As far as I know, the only niche people have found for psychic is going all in on blasting with shatter mind spam
Well, I don't know who are these people, as I've not seen that so strongly stated on the forum, but I kind of agree with them.
psychic stupefied are not uncounterable like oracle curse
blessed denial maybe the best way to deal with it
Yeah, but it'll hardly happen. It's a level 12 feat and more importantly it's one an ally has to take. It works only if you have a fixed party and a nice comrade to take it for you.
Removing the Stupefied condition on the fly is hard. I haven't found any simple and available way of doing it.
You can Unleash round 1 if your exploration activity was detect magic. Only advisable if your combat will go less than 3 rounds.That's not true. The requirements are "You're in an encounter, you Cast a Spell on your previous turn, and you aren't stupefied.". As you were not in combat there's no "previous turn", so it should not be authorized. If you start considering there are turns outside combat, then you bring a lot of mess into the game (especially the Ready action exploits). Also, using Detect Magic as exploration activity doesn't mean that you are using it every 6 seconds, just that you are using it regularly.
Fair enough. I probably got that tidbit from someone whose group hated how exploration and combat mode were separated like a jrpg.
As far as I know, the only niche people have found for psychic is going all in on blasting with shatter mind spamWell, I don't know who are these people, as I've not seen that so strongly stated on the forum, but I kind of agree with them.
Not this forum, but I've seen it pop up elsewhere. I haven't yet found a reason to disagree with the notion either.
I agree, but now that my Psychic has Amp Guidance, I tend to use it quite extensively. So it's not that major of an issue. Also, I want to test Tesseract Tunnel one day!
Overall, my Summoner is not much more optimized than my Psychic. Both are quite optimized builds without using the most optimized possibilities.
My idea of a optimised eidolon probably involves reach attack of opportunity and heroism with the deadly or fatal natural attack. Which should be doing a lot more damage.
You are speaking of an Eidolon-based Summoner. Mine is a caster Summoner. The damage is done by the Summoner, the Eidolon is there for supplemental damage. It's an uncommon style of play for the Summoner (I've explained in a guide I made when I started playing my Summoner).
And the more I play it the more I'm bought, it's really efficient, especially because it circumvents the biggest issues of the Summoner (mostly the 2 targets one).
While I can follow most of the reasoning, I do have to point out problems with this one:
- Spell power: At first glance, it should be the Psychic biggest advantage: Slightly bigger spell list, more Focus Spells and Points, Legendary proficiency. The issue is that you regularly end up Stupefied, which is just killing your efficiency every time a fight lasts 4 rounds (which is far from uncommon, especially for tough fights). Summoner wins because of its ability to last.
Slightly?
Only at lower levels. Or only if you are just looking at your top two or three spell levels.
The Occult list has several spells that are still quite nice even at -3 or more levels below your maximum. Not damage or healing spells obviously. But that does add a bit more versatility. Maybe it isn't something that you feel because your Psychic is focusing on dealing damage. At that point only the top two spell slots are going to be relevant - and Summoner has just as many spell slots as Psychic if those are the only levels being used.
And yes, timing when to use Unleash Psyche is part of the puzzle of how to play Psychic. Doing it too early can be a problem.
And finally as far as the ability to last: It looks like you are looking at the ability to last through one fight - not the ability to last through the entire day. Since most of the Psychic's damage dealing comes from cantrips and focus points and those top two spell slots, it definitely has an edge over Summoner for spellcasting damage on fourth or fifth battles of the day because focus points and unleash psyche are renewable. Summoner compensates for that by having an Eidolon and switching over to physical damage dealing. But if looking at just their spell power, Psychic definitely wins the 'blaster caster all day' competition.
You are speaking of an Eidolon-based Summoner. Mine is a caster Summoner. The damage is done by the Summoner, the Eidolon is there for supplemental damage.
I have always thought it strange that many of the recommendations that I have seen for Summoner builds are effectively an Eidolon and Eidolon booster pair.
I like the idea of Caster and Eidolon backup that you are describing, though that isn't what I am planning for my first Summoner either.
I'm currently building Summoner for a playthrough of Kingmaker. I am planning on Eidolon partnered with the Summoner in either a secondary Summon spell, or the Summoner in a battle form spell - depending on which sounds good for that particular battle.
I'll let you know how it goes after I have played it for a bit.
Slightly?
Only at lower levels. Or only if you are just looking at your top two or three spell levels.
I obviously value high level spells higher than low level spells.
But you also have to consider that the Summoner gets an extra top level spell slot over the Psychic every 2 levels after level 3.Also, even if there are a few evergreen spells at level 1 and 2 (Command, Fear...), they are still quite weak compared to level 3+ spells so I tend to disregard these levels.
So it means having to wait for level 10 for the Psychic spell advantage to start being noticeable. To be more than 'slightly' bigger spell list, you have to wait for the end game. I don't consider level 15+ as my characters rarely get there and even if they ever do I'll rarely play much at these levels.
And finally as far as the ability to last: It looks like you are looking at the ability to last through one fight - not the ability to last through the entire day.
As I stated earlier, my Summoner bread and butter spell is Electric Arc, like my Psychic. They have the same ability to last, both of them are highly focused on cantrips.
I'll let you know how it goes after I have played it for a bit.
Don't hesitate, it's always interesting.
I'll let you know how it goes after I have played it for a bit.Don't hesitate, it's always interesting.
Since it is Play by Post, 'a bit' means probably 6 months before I can describe how it worked out for low level play. Still, it will be another data point for you to incorporate into your Summoner guides.
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I have seen both a Oscillating Wave and The Silent Whisper in action. I think Oscillating Wave does more damage. Silent Whisper has a nice base cantrip with Forbidden Thought, but it only works once per target per battle. Shatter Mind is nice too.
Oscillating Wave is pretty nice. Does very consistent, long-range damage. You can alternate between fire and cold damage, so you don't get too locked down if you need to figure out a weakness. Their higher level cantrips and bonus spells are pretty useful.
The other Psychic minds don't look so great. But those two seem decent. Psychic isn't a bard or druid, but it's not too bad.
I have seen both a Oscillating Wave and The Silent Whisper in action. I think Oscillating Wave does more damage. Silent Whisper has a nice base cantrip with Forbidden Thought, but it only works once per target per battle. Shatter Mind is nice too.
I can vouch for Silent Whisper. One basically changed how our GM built encounters. Amped Shatter Mind is a beast of a spell: good damage, huge aoe, debuffs on fail and party safe. We weren’t exactly shocked with the sudden surge of mindless and/or high will save enemies and anti-cone enemy formations shortly after back to back unleashed + amped Shatter Minds became a staple. The Psychic isn’t even mad because they didn’t intend to build a dedicated blaster in the first place.
Infinite Eye did look interesting. Very support oriented character, but I could see some real synergistic builds with The Infinite Eye. It's pretty cool conceptually.
I'm playing a Dual Class campaign. I wanted a Star Child build. So I made a Cosmos Oracle/Oscillating Wave Psychic that I envision having the power of a living star.
I was tempted to play an Infinite Eye Psychic imagining more of a Eye of the Cosmos style of Oracle and Psychic.
My buddy picked up Glimpse Weakness with the extra cantrip from another Mind feat. He likes using it. One action for some near guaranteed extra damage.
Infinite Eye's unique cantrips are all single actions too. I haven't played one but I really like how that offers better turn flexibility and spell options I wouldn't feel too bad risking during your stupefied turns.