Greetings! I have a question about this combo noted on the subject.
As it's stated in the thrown trait:
"You can throw this weapon as a ranged attack, and it is a ranged weapon when thrown."
But: "A thrown weapon adds your Strength modifier to damage just like a melee weapon does."
And in the Thief racket for rogues:
"When you attack with a finesse melee weapon, you can add your Dexterity modifier to damage rolls instead of your Strength modifier."
Let's say I attack with a thrown weapon under the melee category which has the finesse trait (like a dagger), can I add the dexterity modifier to damages?
Thanks!
Complex question, because the line stating that it is a ranged weapon when thrown doesn't say if it stops being a melee weapon or not and there's nothing in the rules stating that a weapon is either ranged or melee, which may indicate that a weapon can be both.
Still, there are abilities that suggest the weapon stops being a melee one when thrown, like Flying Blade from the Swashbuckler.
I'd personally stick with the fact that it doesn't work together. But you can expect table variation.
My answer is no, because you're not making a melee an attack with a finesse melee weapon you're making an attack with a ranged weapon (when thrown).
Ignore the part of "just like a melee weapon" it's written in an informal way not as a statement of "this is mechanically intended to reference melee weapons".
No, dex go damage is only for melee. When you throw a weapon it is ranged and there is no dex to damage.
I'm fairly certain this has been clarified in a number of places.
You cannot benefit from both. For the purposes of most rules, a melee weapon that is swung or thrust is a melee attack. A melee weapon that is thrown is a ranged attack.
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I'm fairly certain this has been clarified in a number of places.
You cannot benefit from both. For the purposes of most rules, a melee weapon that is swung or thrust is a melee attack. A melee weapon that is thrown is a ranged attack.
Yep, I believe this was in one of the first batches of clarifications: A melee weapon becomes a ranged weapon when thrown.
Quick Forum Search: https://paizo.com/search?q=thief+thrown&forum=v5748dmu0pw6x
Welp, alright... I guess I can forget the idea I had with thrown weapons as a rogue.
Thanks for your replies
Welp, alright... I guess I can forget the idea I had with thrown weapons as a rogue.
Thanks for your replies
Don't dismiss it so quickly. Just don't play a thief rogue if you want to focus on throwing weapons.
Just because rogue benefits a lot from rogue, doesn't mean you can't make a rogue with high strength and even higher dex. It's possible to start with a 16 in strength and a 18 in dex. You could even do 14 strength so you could reinforce another stat more.
Remember, it's the difference between like 4 points of bonus damage or 2. It matters more at low levels, but isn't the end of the world. At high levels, you barely notice it.
You could even focus on strength as a ruffian rogue.
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“Just because rogue benefits a lot from rogue, doesn't mean you can't make a rogue...”
Duuuude…so true.
/mindblown:D
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You still have the opportunity for Sneak Attack.
Sneak attacking with a ranged weapon tends to be problematic: Not impossible, but without the option to Flank, it can be a bit awkward to get your target flat-footed.
Sneak attacking generally goes:
- Melee Weapon / Unarmed strikes: Easiest
- Melee spells: Slightly harder (Stealth doesn't work)
- Ranged Weapons: Harder (Flanking and feinting don't word)
- Ranged Spells: Hardest (Stealth, Flanking, and feinting don't work)
Again, it's not impossible by any means, but you'll probably need to invest some resources here...
“Just because rogue benefits a lot from rogue, doesn't mean you can't make a rogue...”
Duuuude…so true.
/mindblown:D
Don't know what happened to my finger when I was typing here, I meant to type dexterity. LOL.
You still have the opportunity for Sneak Attack.Sneak attacking with a ranged weapon tends to be problematic: Not impossible, but without the option to Flank, it can be a bit awkward to get your target flat-footed.
Sneak attacking generally goes:
- Melee Weapon / Unarmed strikes: Easiest
- Melee spells: Slightly harder (Stealth doesn't work)
- Ranged Weapons: Harder (Flanking and feinting don't word)
- Ranged Spells: Hardest (Stealth, Flanking, and feinting don't work)
Again, it's not impossible by any means, but you'll probably need to invest some resources here...
Ricochet feint can help, but yes it's a feat you would need and it doesn't come in until level 12. It's not an easy road to tread.
If you're not completely set on rogue, Investigator has a similar feel but I think you might be able to use Devise a Stratagem more easily with thrown weapons, but I haven't paid great attention to it. But Taja raises a good point that sneak attack and range aren't great friends.
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Melee weapons with the thrown trait are rarely meant to be primarily ranged attacks. They are built to switch hit. For example, if you move up to an enemy and kill it with one strike, throwing a dagger is probably a better move than striding up to the next enemy with your third action.
Dex to damage isn't really the biggest problem the thrown dagger build has. You also need to deal with shoddy range increments (common for melee thrown weapons) and low damage dice. Honestly, I'm pretty surprised we don't have a deadly simplicity feat for rogues and knives.
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Melee weapons with the thrown trait are rarely meant to be primarily ranged attacks. They are built to switch hit. For example, if you move up to an enemy and kill it with one strike, throwing a dagger is probably a better move than striding up to the next enemy with your third action.
Dex to damage isn't really the biggest problem the thrown dagger build has. You also need to deal with shoddy range increments (common for melee thrown weapons) and low damage dice. Honestly, I'm pretty surprised we don't have a deadly simplicity feat for rogues and knives.
Sneak attack is the rogue's Deadly Simplicity: A Rogue is basically doing 1d12 weapon damage with a d6 weapon and 1d10 weapon damage with a 1d4 weapon once you add in the Sneak Attack dice. Whenever I needed to shift to a bludgeoning weapon on my Thief, I dreaded rolling the tiny d4's, but that didn't really hurt my damage significantly...
Big issues with throwing weapons that you missed are:
- Magic: The mere existence of magic weapons has crippled throwing weapon builds for about 50 years now, as you just aren't going to carry enough magic daggers to keep this fighting style going for any period of time (I once had a DnD2 thief with six +2 daggers, but even that would only last him two rounds I think). The PF2 Returning rune is a good way to get around this, but it does take up a precious rune slot...
- Sneak Attack: Getting your foe flat-footed is very important for rogues, and doing this with a ranged weapon takes some extra effort (as noted in a previous post). If you are a melee build, you are probably better off getting into melee, while if you are a ranged build, you might was well just use a 'proper' ranged weapon like a shortbow.
Sneak attack is the rogue's Deadly Simplicity: A Rogue is basically doing 1d12 weapon damage with a d6 weapon and 1d10 weapon damage with a 1d4 weapon once you add in the Sneak Attack dice. Whenever I needed to shift to a bludgeoning weapon on my Thief, I dreaded rolling the tiny d4's, but that didn't really hurt my damage significantly...
Except that sneak attack still works with d6 martial weapons. Even with the janky bespoke weapon list of rogues, rapiers and shortswords are strictly superior for melee and shortbows are strictly superior for ranged. Daggers are an iconic part of the whole rogue concept that it feels weird they are suboptima, or don't have an option like the PF1 Knife Master archetype yet.
Big issues with throwing weapons that you missed are:
- Magic: The mere existence of magic weapons has crippled throwing weapon builds for about 50 years now, as you just aren't going to carry enough magic daggers to keep this fighting style going for any period of time (I once had a DnD2 thief with six +2 daggers, but even that would only last him two rounds I think). The PF2 Returning rune is a good way to get around this, but it does take up a precious rune slot...
- Sneak Attack: Getting your foe flat-footed is very important for rogues, and doing this with a ranged weapon takes some extra effort (as noted in a previous post). If you are a melee build, you are probably better off getting into melee, while if you are a ranged build, you might was well just use a 'proper' ranged weapon like a shortbow.
I'm saying that you shouldn't build around throwing weapons-- you should use them as a back up option when melee isn't viable. Within that space, they have utility.
Property rune slots are really only precious once elemental runes start showing up. Until then property runes are pretty niche. Even once elemental runes do start showing up, the tactical flexibility of a throwable weapon still has a place.
The rogue is inherently a skirmishing class with mobility focused feats 8hp a level. They deal their best damage in melee (as do most classes) but there are various circumstances where moving into melee isn't possible or advisable:
Third Actions
Difficult Terrain
Crowded hallways/doorways
Dangerous auras
Creatures with 3 action attack routines, like a caster with a nasty melee strike
Being low enough on HP
(Sneak Attack) When hiding from cover is viable and flanking isn't.
Having your striking melee weapon still be useful in these scenarios is not a bad value proposition, even if it costs you a property rune slot. But the dagger is still a weaker simple weapon, which hurts the concept.
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I think you're kind of overstating it a bit. You're trading a die size for a throwing range increment, which is closer to even than not (even if it's kind of a sad range increment). If anything, daggers are already kind of overbudget for simple weapons.
I think you're kind of overstating it a bit. You're trading a die size for a throwing range increment, which is closer to even than not (even if it's kind of a sad range increment). If anything, daggers are already kind of overbudget for simple weapons.
Eh, fair. It does feel odd to me that a Rogue who becomes a Cleric of Pharasma is so good.
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I'm playing Edgewatch and the fighter in our party uses Snagging Strike, Combat Grab, and swords. Enemies are flat-footed very often.
I think the ranged rogue is quite viable but you want to see what kind of characters the other players are playing before you decide.
You could also go mostly melee but have that Returning rune so that if an enemy happens to be flat-footed for some reason, you can just take the opportunity.
I'm playing Edgewatch and the fighter in our party uses Snagging Strike, Combat Grab, and swords. Enemies are flat-footed very often.
I think the ranged rogue is quite viable but you want to see what kind of characters the other players are playing before you decide.
You could also go mostly melee but have that Returning rune so that if an enemy happens to be flat-footed for some reason, you can just take the opportunity.
Yeah, with a character like that in your party a ranged rogue can really go to town because their build is synergizing with yours (I mean, you haven't done anything special other than have sneak attack but it's there).
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If anything, there aught to be more ways to give flatfooted at range especially with thrown weapons, which have a lot of presence in the rogue feat list.
Honestly, making this easy could make rogue archers/throwers a bit overpowered as it minimizes the rogue's main weakness (its fragility) while maintaining melee damage numbers (or fairly close to it at least): A sneak attacking rogue with a Javelin or Shortbow gets slightly better damage dice (2d6) than a melee greatsword (1d12) with far less risk of bodily injury, while the much maligned dagger still falls right between your 1d10 and 1d12 weapons.
Intentionally or not, the rogue's combat options tend to be pretty well balanced: The safer you are, the less damage you'll probably do without 'special' party or magical assistance.
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Then instant opening kinda makes the shortbow rogue better than any other rogue at just sneak attacking. I don't really get why that feat exists. It invalidates the other ways that are built in to gain flatfooted. Or maybe mostly the feint focused rogue. Tripping and demoralizing are still useful by themselves
Keep in mind Instant Opening is a 14th level feat. You're waiting 14 levels for your shortbow rogue to get the payoff.
Now, I'm not saying if you're making a ranged rogue that the short bow isn't the way to go. It absolutely is. There's no reason to make a thrown weapon focused rogue when you have access to the short bow, except that you want to use thrown weapons.
But your statement that it's better than other kinds of rogues at sneak attacking isn't really true. Feinting doesn't require a feat for melee rogues, and has feats that improve it over time. Instant Opening is Feinting at up to 30ft (no check required) but it's 14th level. It's a good feat for sure. But you're pretending like Twin Feint, Distracting Feint, and Overextending Feint don't exist and aren't available much earlier.
Instant Opening or Ricochet Feint is practically required if you want to consistently Sneak Attack with ranged weapons without relying on someone else. And they're pretty high level. Too high level to make ranged sneak attack a fun thing to focus on before they're available.
I wouldn't say it really puts the class on its head. Sneak Attacking at range becomes easier (but how big the difference is depends on how much your allies do things to make targets flat-footed anyway). The damage per Strike becomes less skewed towards melee, sure.
On the other hand, overall damage output is still higher for the melee crowd than for someone keeping their distance, because Opportune Backstab is such a huge deal, and only works on targets in your melee reach.
Melee weapons with the thrown trait are rarely meant to be primarily ranged attacks. They are built to switch hit. For example, if you move up to an enemy and kill it with one strike, throwing a dagger is probably a better move than striding up to the next enemy with your third action.
Dex to damage isn't really the biggest problem the thrown dagger build has. You also need to deal with shoddy range increments (common for melee thrown weapons) and low damage dice. Honestly, I'm pretty surprised we don't have a deadly simplicity feat for rogues and knives.
What do you think the range increment should be for a thrown dagger?
I mean 10ft is pretty realistic, it's just really bad when talking about focusing on thrown weapons compared to simply using a short bow that rogues are proficient with that has a range of 60ft.
From a playability standpoint, I think 30ft would be great but that would be more than any other current thrown weapon except the Rungu and Bladed Diabolo. And neither of those qualify for sneak attack since they're not agile or finesse :(
I wouldn't say it really puts the class on its head. Sneak Attacking at range becomes easier (but how big the difference is depends on how much your allies do things to make targets flat-footed anyway). The damage per Strike becomes less skewed towards melee, sure.
On the other hand, overall damage output is still higher for the melee crowd than for someone keeping their distance, because Opportune Backstab is such a huge deal, and only works on targets in your melee reach.
Yes it is interesting that Opportune Backstab does work with ranged attacks, but it required to be within your melee reach.
The other problem is GangUp is so strong, and reach in general is so powerful there is just no point in having a 10ft thrown weapon when you can just pick up a reach weapon instead eg. Elven Branched Spear, Whip Claw, Scorpion Whip, Whip or even just a Long Spear as a Ruffian.Bascially Reach kills any space there might have been for a thrown weapon Rogue.
What they need to do is:
Write another Gang Up but make it apply if you have a ranged weapon within 20ft/first range increment, and you have an ally in melee range.
You and your allies harry an opponent in concert. Any enemy is flat-footed against your attacks due to flanking as long as the enemy is within your ally’s reach and within 15ft of you. Your allies must still flank an enemy for it to be flat-footed to them.
This also helps for spells attacks as well. Which at the moment is even worse that thrown weapons.
Change Opportune Backstab to make it apply to enemy within 15ft instead of melee reach.
Maybe another feat to add 5 ft to the range of thrown weapons - perhaps change Far Throw to do this.
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I don't think daggers should get a better range increment. I think they should get a feat which makes them d6. Though that would also make them strictly better than short swords, I don't think if would be especially unbalanced. The rogue has other options that are generally upgrades but it needs to use feats to pick up, like proficiency in elven curve blades or spike chains.
Re: Instant opening: by level 14 feats have gotten pretty crazy. It isn't uncommon for them to give you extra actions or pretty absurd DPR buffs. I don't think it is a huge problem, especially when with a little team work you can get basically the same effect from low levels. A fighter with combat grab or a bard with Dirge of Doom also more or less guarantees flatfooted.
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I don't think instant opening is broken per se, but I don't really like the progression of ranged flat footed being really noticeably difficult to manage and usually requireing team support for 13 levels and then super easy at 14. It also makes the shortbow rogue kind of turrety after that feat comes online.
Really? Instant Opening is a catch all plan B. It is not that great, maybe 3 stars, it costs an action and I just wouldn't take it. Because I sorted out my near automatic flanking much earlier.
The Rogue is far better off using one of the many other ways of getting the flat footed. Example Gang up is almost automatic and no action cost, going multiclass Bard or just have a Bard, Dirge of Doom, and Dread Striker is basically automatic.
All Instant opening does is give you a way of dealing with enemies that are immune to flanking or immune to mental effects (Feint/Demoralize/Fear) or immune to your Mastermind ability, and no one in the party can make them prone or grapple them.
I've just got better things to do as a Rogue.
If you want to do a thrown weapon or ranged rogue go the Demoralize - Dread Striker or the Kobold Grovel Feint or Mastermind route. Then let your allies help with the rest.
If you want to do a thrown weapon or ranged rogue go the Demoralize - Dread Striker or the Kobold Grovel Feint or Mastermind route. Then let your allies help with the rest.
The thing with Instant Opening is that there isn't any restrictions on who you can target: a Mastermind might run into a DM that doesn't allow multiple Recall checks on a single target, the target might be immune to emotion or mental effects or whatever check required fails, ect. None of that matters to Instant Opening as long as it can hear or see you. You might see it as a plan B but it's a mighty fine plan B as it covers all the reasons you might NOT be able to sneak attack and the last thing a rogue wants is no sneak attack on a damage roll...
Well you can't play the game if your GM is just going to be contentious. Most Masterminds go into a second knowledge skill like Loremaster Lore or Gossip Lore. It is simple and pretty easy. So you should always have a second lore.
Yes GMs can be totally uncooperative with Recall Knowledge. If you encounter such a GM then ask them why the rules are in the game if the whole concept is unplayable? Then build another character or just leave.
I know I may be sounding like SuperBidi here and only seeing the one true optimised path, it does have its uses but I just can't ever see that I'd choose Instant Opening.
Yes GMs can be totally uncooperative with Recall Knowledge.
Even if your DM is cooperative you still have to make the rolls: nothing like Rare/Unique creatures to put the damper on things with a -5 or -10 to the rolls. Similar with grapple/trips outside the size range and demobilize/grovel/ect vs mindless or otherwise immune to mental/emotion abilities. Each method have large enough sections of the creatures they can meet that they either can't use their normal method to get flat-footed or have it substantially harder to use it that a method that bypasses all of that is valuable.
I know I may be sounding like SuperBidi here and only seeing the one true optimised path, it does have its uses but I just can't ever see that I'd choose Instant Opening.
*shrug* I mean, you do you: I'm not trying to make you take it. I'm just saying for me I've seen it work and work well and have no issue spending the feat on it: IMO it's a free 'get out of jail card' when normal methods aren't working for sneak attack.
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Even if your DM is cooperative you still have to make the rolls: nothing like Rare/Unique creatures to put the damper on things with a -5 or -10 to the rolls.
I don't mind the modifier here. It is just that MOST creatures in many modules are Rare or Uncommon - which is an oxymoron. At that point it becomes a nerf.
This is a problem that Paizo need to fix.
I know I may be sounding like SuperBidi here and only seeing the one true optimised path, it does have its uses but I just can't ever see that I'd choose Instant Opening.
Hey!
I find the argument "You can choose to make an unoptimized choice" not to be an argument. That's all. Especially when the optimized choice is both strong and obvious (like who will speak of a melee Rogue without Gang Up and Opportune Backstab?).Anyway, my PFS Rogue Archer went the Dread Striker route (and she's a Scoundrel to maximize Demoralize). I haven't thought about my level 14 feats as they are too far away, I'll see then if I have issues with Sneak Attacking (I currently have some as I can't count on anyone to give the flat-footed condition to enemies as it's PFS).
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I'll see then if I have issues with Sneak Attacking (I currently have some as I can't count on anyone to give the flat-footed condition to enemies as it's PFS).
I'm in a similar situation most times as I rarely make characters collaboratively with the other players and often have never met/played with them.
Even if your DM is cooperative you still have to make the rolls: nothing like Rare/Unique creatures to put the damper on things with a -5 or -10 to the rolls.I don't mind the modifier here. It is just that MOST creatures in many modules are Rare or Uncommon - which is an oxymoron. At that point it becomes a nerf.
This is a problem that Paizo need to fix.
IMO they should look at some suggested guidelines [for both DM's and the people making the adventures] Recall as a whole, top to bottom. It can be quite frustrating when your character has an ability that relies on it.