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Kind of a follow-up from my post in general. I'm working on refining this eldritch scoundrel rogue build I've grown to like.
The idea is to make a high utility switch hitter build with the ability to adapt to basically any situation and fill any role needed in the party to an adequate degree, a true jack of all trades type that theoretically anybody can pick up and learn regardless of what race they are and even if you got shafted with something akin to a 10 point buy as the spells would mostly be focused on buff/debuff and utility spells as opposed to anything like fireball or summon monster.
I already got it in a good spot, i just want to know if the build would be better off as Dex or Str. Because while i know dex probably would be better, i would be losing out on use of the longspear and be limited to the sap, light mace, dagger and shortsword as well as light and hand crossbows in terms of example weapons.
Why crossbows instead of bows? Because they don't need str and they have better sneak attack support. Still is losing access to such weapon options be worth it to make this build more...accessible so to speak? Here's the blueprint.
Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue(Play like an Arcane Slayer)
4.Ninja Trick:Kamikaze
8.Ninja Trick:Forgotten Trick
12.Stalker Talent:Lethal Grace(Arcane Strike)
1.Weapon Finesse
3.Piranha Strike
5.Point Blank Shot
7.Precise Shot
9.Extra Rouge Talent:Dampen Presence
11.Accomplished Sneak Attacker
13.Extra Rogue Talent:Skill Mastery
Feats 1-7 can be swapped depending on the user
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Light Weapon Choices:Light Mace, Sap, Dagger, Shortsword
Ranged Choices:Light Crossbow, Hand Crossbow(Assassin Sight)
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I'm sorry, but is the intent for this character to be bad at everything? Eldritch Scoundrel gives up a lot (half your base skill points, most of your sneak attack dice, your light armor proficiency*, and even uncanny dodge**) for a couple of spells per day and doesn't even work with Unchained Rogues, so you are stuck with the CRB version of the class (per PFS at least)...
Overall, 'switch-hitting' tends to be overrated:
If you're an archer, you shouldn't really need to invest significantly in melee combat.
If you're melee, you should have a ranged weapon for emergencies only, and melee rogues need to be pretty desperate to pull out their bows given the range limitation on Sneak Attack.
Given the Eldritch Scoundrel's lack of armor/uncanny dodge and its spell casting theme, I'm guessing you'd really want to go with an archery build for this archetype.
Piranha Strike is generally a poor option for Rogues due to their 3/4 BAB progression: Using this feat basically reduces you to a wizard's BAB.
As to your actual question, you'd need to go with Dexterity, as you desperately need the AC bonus if you are even considering being in melee range...
*Note that your spellcasting does not ignore Arcane Spell Failure chances, so even wearing 'No ACP' armor will probably create issues.
**Yes, you can take this ability as a Rogue Talent, but still...
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I'm sorry, but is the intent for this character to be bad at everything? Eldritch Scoundrel gives up a lot (half your base skill points, most of your sneak attack dice, your light armor proficiency*, and even uncanny dodge**) for a couple of spells per day and doesn't even work with Unchained Rogues, so you are stuck with the CRB version of the class (per PFS at least)...
Overall, 'switch-hitting' tends to be overrated:
If you're an archer, you shouldn't really need to invest significantly in melee combat.
If you're melee, you should have a ranged weapon for emergencies only, and melee rogues need to be pretty desperate to pull out their bows given the range limitation on Sneak Attack.
Given the Eldritch Scoundrel's lack of armor/uncanny dodge and its spell casting theme, I'm guessing you'd really want to go with an archery build for this archetype.Piranha Strike is generally a poor option for Rogues due to their 3/4 BAB progression: Using this feat basically reduces you to a wizard's BAB.
As to your actual question, you'd need to go with Dexterity, as you desperately need the AC bonus if you are even considering being in melee range...
*Note that your spellcasting does not ignore Arcane Spell Failure chances, so even wearing 'No ACP' armor will probably create issues.
**Yes, you can take this ability as a Rogue Talent, but still...
Why does everybody forget that this archtype has access to mage armor? But thank you for answering my question, however snarky you may have been about it.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I already got it in a good spot, i just want to know if the build would be better off as Dex or Str. Because while i know dex probably would be better,
You are correct, dex would be much better. A switch hitter has no need of a reach weapon.
Also, take Vanishing Trick at an early level; it's one of your better options for both defense and getting sneak damage on ranged attacks.
That said, for an utility caster switch hitter, the Magus is probably a better pick.
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I already got it in a good spot, i just want to know if the build would be better off as Dex or Str. Because while i know dex probably would be better,You are correct, dex would be much better. A switch hitter has no need of a reach weapon.
Also, take Vanishing Trick at an early level; it's one of your better options for both defense and getting sneak damage on ranged attacks.
That said, for an utility caster switch hitter, the Magus is probably a better pick.
I already have a myrmidarch magus set up for just that, and i like having the wizard list for that as eventually this build would transition to its rogue roots and be more of a scout/stealth/support character.
As for the vanishing trick, that's what the forgotten trick is for.
Not my first choice, but we can try make it work...
Let's be an Elf, since they are proficient with with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows). If you trade Weapon Familiarity for Crossbow Training, you can reload a light crossbow as a free action and a heavy crossbow as a move action, provided that she is proficient with the weapon. If she selects the Rapid Reload feat for a heavy crossbow, she can reload the weapon as a free action. A Mage's Crossbow is a light crossbow... just saying. Anyways, the Elf FCB adds to your uses per day of Minor/Major Magic, which is kind of like extra spell slots, if you take those Talents.
If you can't be an UnChained Eldritch Scoundrel, then maybe Elven Battle Focus to add Intelligence to damage?
Technically you don't have to decide between Str and Dex, you can keep both at (roughly) equal numbers. It comes with a hit in accuracy, but your CMD improves a bit and you are more versatile when it comes to skill and ability checks. Also, ability penalties / damage / drain are less of an issue if you a backup stat for attacks (requires Weapon Finesse or switching). Improving both scores over the course of levels is more expensive, but you can make more use of buffs and magic items that boost either stat.
Piranha Strike might work sometimes, especially if you can't sneak attack and your damage is otherwise quite low. But personally I'd rather take the opportunity to pick up Arcane Strike early on: It works on any weapon, comes with no AB penalty and scales nearly as quickly as the difference between two-handed and one-handed Power Attack.
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Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.
The introduction of Pathfinder unchained states that you can use archetypes form other books as long as you have the class feature to trade out. I don’t see any class features the eldritch scoundrel is lacking, so there does not seem to be any reason you could not take the archetype on an unchained rogue.
This would make a DEX based eldritch scoundrel the obvious choice.
You also don’t have to have a good STR to use a bow. As long as you don’t have a STR penalty you can use one. You may not be able to add your STR bonus to the bow, but you can’t do that with a crossbow either.
Technically the eldritch scoundrel is losing half his skill ranks, but that is not really true. An eldritch scoundrel is going to have a much higher INT than the normal rogue. In many cases this becomes their primary stat and DEX becomes secondary. For the most part an eldritch scoundrel will have at least a 16 INT and will be boosting that up as he levels up. That puts him 1 point behind the standard rogue.
The eldritch scoundrel is also a spell caster which means he can use wands without needing UMD. Instead of focusing on a weapon for your ranged combat use a wand. Sure, it cost some gold, but then so does a magic weapon. Using wands and scrolls gives you the ability to have a lot of spells ready when you need them. This is part of why spell casters are considered powerful.
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Technically the eldritch scoundrel is losing half his skill ranks, but that is not really true. An eldritch scoundrel is going to have a much higher INT than the normal rogue. In many cases this becomes their primary stat and DEX becomes secondary. For the most part an eldritch scoundrel will have at least a 16 INT and will be boosting that up as he levels up. That puts him 1 point behind the standard rogue.
The eldritch scoundrel is also a spell caster which means he can use wands without needing UMD. Instead of focusing on a weapon for your ranged combat use a wand. Sure, it cost some gold, but then so does a magic weapon. Using wands and scrolls gives you the ability to have a lot of spells ready when you need them. This is part of why spell casters are considered powerful.
Yes this is what I've been thinking. Considering int is your casting stat, it kind of balances out your skill points and given how many options spellcasting gives you anyway i don't see why people think having 4+int skill points per level is a detriment.
IMO, Rogue types of pretty much any build rely on sneak attack for their damage output. Maximizing it is critical. I have found the best way to maximize Sneak attack damage is with as many attacks as possible. This is where Two Weapon fighting comes in. TWF gives you the most number of attacks per round. This relies on Dexterity, so Rogue types should almost always be a dex build.
Piranha strike is great (don't listen to those people who talk about being reduced to a mages attack). About 80% of the time you should be attacking from Flanking, (+2 to hit) or from invisible (+2 to hit, and flat footed target) or both (+4 to hit and flat footed target)
Also, you should be using finesse weapons, so you'll Add DEX to hit, plus Some Rogue type can add Dex to damage.
All this being said.. Forget about Rogue STR builds.
Then, as a backup go for a bow of some kind (not a crossbow as they take time to reload).
As for other nuanced things to add to your Rogue type build - Knifemaster Archtype - d8 backstab is very nice.
Since you will be Dex build - you should have a pretty high AC, as well as a high Init Mod.
Pick up the Rogue talents that allow for sneak attack in the surprise round, and using terrain or opponents for flanking.
Vanishing Trick is awesome, IF you can pick up a ki pool.... otherwise, Ring of invisibility, Wand of Greater Invisibility, Boots of speed.
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IMO, Rogue types of pretty much any build rely on sneak attack for their damage output. Maximizing it is critical. I have found the best way to maximize Sneak attack damage is with as many attacks as possible. This is where Two Weapon fighting comes in. TWF gives you the most number of attacks per round. This relies on Dexterity, so Rogue types should almost always be a dex build.
Piranha strike is great (don't listen to those people who talk about being reduced to a mages attack). About 80% of the time you should be attacking from Flanking, (+2 to hit) or from invisible (+2 to hit, and flat footed target) or both (+4 to hit and flat footed target)Also, you should be using finesse weapons, so you'll Add DEX to hit, plus Some Rogue type can add Dex to damage.
All this being said.. Forget about Rogue STR builds.
Then, as a backup go for a bow of some kind (not a crossbow as they take time to reload).
As for other nuanced things to add to your Rogue type build - Knifemaster Archtype - d8 backstab is very nice.
Since you will be Dex build - you should have a pretty high AC, as well as a high Init Mod.
Pick up the Rogue talents that allow for sneak attack in the surprise round, and using terrain or opponents for flanking.
Vanishing Trick is awesome, IF you can pick up a ki pool.... otherwise, Ring of invisibility, Wand of Greater Invisibility, Boots of speed.
So the cool thing about eldritch scoundrel is that you can activate ninja tricks by using a spell slot equivilent to how many key points it would have taken to use it. So in vanishing tricks case you basically have access to swift action invisibility as a level 1 spell.
Also TWF simply isn't an option since you need a free hand to cast spells, and given how feat intensive it already is AND you would likely need quick draw on top of that, you're better off sticking with a single weapon.
Also TWF simply isn't an option since you need a free hand to cast spells, and given how feat intensive it already is AND you would likely need quick draw on top of that, you're better off sticking with a single weapon.
The TWF feat actually makes drawing two weapons as quick as drawing one:
If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Personally I'd always consider natural attacks for a rogue with sneak attack. Either as supplement for TWF or as replacement. A ring of rat fangs is rather inexpensive (5k), and a -5 AB penalty for a secondary natural attack isn't worse than the usual -5 AB for the first iterative.
Alternatively use a spell to polymorph yourself into something with a lot of natural attacks.
Be a Tengu, start with bite/claw/claw... and you also have a crossbow, or whatever.
Using a cestus or spiked gauntlet allows you to TWF while also keeping the hand free for spell casting.
If ur looking for the ultimate jack of all trades I think that Feral Hunter is the best bet. Animal focus lets u be good at everything physical. U want to be stealthy, run faster, jump farther, swim better got that covered. Need evasion got that too. Want to buff perception, have darkvision or scent boom there u go. Want to buff ur physical stats, easy peasy. The planar focus feat adds even more goodies. Swim speed with water breathing, burrow and nat armor buff, constant feather fall/levitate. Fire damage to all melee attacks, cold damage to all attackers. Then u get Druid/ranger spellcasting. Resist energy and the ability to use wands of cure lite wounds at lvl 1 awesome. Wild shape at lvl 4 gives u stat buffs and nat attacks. Natural spell feat let’s u cast while polymorphed. Planar wild shape gives u celestial or fiendish template awesome. Weapon shift feat can double your reach with nat attacks(at lvl 8 u can turn into a giant octopus with a bite and 8 tentacle attacks that with weapon shift would have 40 foot reach. At lvl 6 u get minutes per lvl summon natures ally and can summon additional creatures. Hunters also get 6+INT skills per level and have a decent selection of class skills. If u take human as a race and take the alternate racial trait that swaps bonus skill ranks for all knowledge skills as class skills then ur pretty well covered skill wise. Feral Hunter was my go-to utility level dip for PFS. At least a third of my characters had a lvl dip in feral hunter.
Hate to be nitpicking but being knocked prone doesn’t deny you your dex bonus it simply causes a -4 penalty to AC versus melee or a +4 bonus to AC versus ranged attacks. You won’t automatically get sneak attack on prone targets.
I wanted to reiterate an above point that switch hitting isn't very good, doubly so on a rogue.
If you're making an archer, to do it well requires a lot of dedicated feats. Switch hitters wont have that, else you stop being a switch hitter and start being a dedicated archer. Keep in mind, sneak attack is limited to 30ft ranged by default, meaning no sneak attack on targets that you couldn't already engaged in melee.
Melee can have a bow to engage targets in the off chance an encounter start 100+ feet away (not common in my experience) but after round 1 you almost always drop the bow and switch to melee. Primarily because you're more likely to have dedicated feats to melee (and generally melee requires less feats to make work).
More generally, sneak attack is honestly quite difficult to get without dedicate a fair number of feats to make happen consistently (unless you have a very dedicated flanking partner).
Also don't count in invisibility to keep you safe. A lot of monster can get access to see invisibility and invisibility purge or have another method of dealing with invisibility. I remember playing a campaign with a ninja who would go invisible try to position themselves in the middle of enemies and then someone who realize that X creature has see invisibility or a caster would pop invis purge. And then the ninja would get ganged up on. Like 50% of combats.
A Saltspray Ring and Goz Mask combo will pretty reliably get you ranged sneak attack and the Animal Ally feat will get you a dedicated flanker for melee.
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Yes, but the archetype also sacrifices half of your Sneak Attack damage, so you won't actually be hitting very hard once you do sacrifice the spell slot....
So the cool thing about eldritch scoundrel is that you can activate ninja tricks by using a spell slot equivilent to how many key points it would have taken to use it. So in vanishing tricks case you basically have access to swift action invisibility as a level 1 spell.
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Arcane Anthology pg. 23 ...Source
Sneak Attack (Ex): The eldritch scoundrel doesn’t acquire the sneak attack class feature until 3rd level, when she gains a +1d6 sneak attack. This increases by 1d6 at 7th level, and again at every 4 rogue levels thereafter. This modifies the rogue’s normal sneak attack progression.
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At 10th level, the Eldritch Scoundrel only gets +2d6 Sneak Attack damage compared to +5d6 for the baseline rogue. Yes, you can take Accomplished Sneak Attacker to close that gap, but it will cost you half your feats to get back up to the baseline class...
I'd say go Dex. If you can use Unchained with that archetype, then you're getting dex to damage for free. Even without Unchained, you're getting it to your attacks for free. And if you plan to do any kind of archery, you need dex to be able to hit anything. Hurting yourself in one area to make another area stronger is fine. Heck, doing it for sheer flavor is fine. But don't hurt yourself just to hurt yourself. Leave your Str at 10 so you can carry your stuff and put the rest in Dex.
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At 10th level, the Eldritch Scoundrel only gets +2d6 Sneak Attack damage compared to +5d6 for the baseline rogue. Yes, you can take Accomplished Sneak Attacker to close that gap, but it will cost you half your feats to get back up to the baseline class...Yes, but the archetype also sacrifices half of your Sneak Attack damage, so you won't actually be hitting very hard once you do sacrifice the spell slot....
So the cool thing about eldritch scoundrel is that you can activate ninja tricks by using a spell slot equivilent to how many key points it would have taken to use it. So in vanishing tricks case you basically have access to swift action invisibility as a level 1 spell.
...Arcane Anthology pg. 23 ...Source
Sneak Attack (Ex): The eldritch scoundrel doesn’t acquire the sneak attack class feature until 3rd level, when she gains a +1d6 sneak attack. This increases by 1d6 at 7th level, and again at every 4 rogue levels thereafter. This modifies the rogue’s normal sneak attack progression.
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Sense vitals spell.
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Sense vitals spell.At 10th level, the Eldritch Scoundrel only gets +2d6 Sneak Attack damage compared to +5d6 for the baseline rogue. Yes, you can take Accomplished Sneak Attacker to close that gap, but it will cost you half your feats to get back up to the baseline class...Yes, but the archetype also sacrifices half of your Sneak Attack damage, so you won't actually be hitting very hard once you do sacrifice the spell slot....
So the cool thing about eldritch scoundrel is that you can activate ninja tricks by using a spell slot equivilent to how many key points it would have taken to use it. So in vanishing tricks case you basically have access to swift action invisibility as a level 1 spell.
...Arcane Anthology pg. 23 ...Source
Sneak Attack (Ex): The eldritch scoundrel doesn’t acquire the sneak attack class feature until 3rd level, when she gains a +1d6 sneak attack. This increases by 1d6 at 7th level, and again at every 4 rogue levels thereafter. This modifies the rogue’s normal sneak attack progression.
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Okay, so now you are burning a standard action and a 2nd level spell slot each fight just to keep up with the baseline class...
Honestly, the archetype seems more of a 'sneaky wizard' than the 'rogue with spells' that you seem to be building, and even then it is kinda weak: If you really want to build an Eldritch Scoundrel, I think you need to focus on a single 'theme' because you are going to have to spend a lot of resources to make that one theme actually work and won't really have anything left over for another role...
Be an ElF with both the Industrious Urbanite and Overwhelming Magic alternative racial features to start with Spell Focus Conjuration and Spell Focus Evocation. Or be a human for the extra feat if you want a Familiar. You could get a Familiar with just Rogue Talents, too. Your Rogue Talents are limited, so you might want a Ki Pool (and Unlock Ki) instead... just for another resource pool outsise of burning spell slots. Wear Sunsilk Ceremonial Armor for no ASF chance and no ACP. Could use a Starknife, that way you get your Dex-to-DMG, and all your weapon specific feats, like Weapon Focus and Startoss Style, work both ways. Point Blank Shot works with Acid Splash, too. I would focus on Acid Splash and the Conjuration version of Snowball at low levels... something like the swift action Cold Ice Strike at your highest levels.
Eldritch Scoundrel UnRogue
1B. Weapon Finesse
1.
3.
4. Forgotten Trick
5. Intensify Spell
7.
8. Ki Pool
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11.
12. Unlock Ki
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15.
BAB +11
Base saves +5/+9/+5
CL 15, 5th-level spells
Sneak Attack 4D6
Eldritch Scoundrel UnRogue
1B. Weapon Finesse
1.
3.
4. Forgotten Trick (Rogue Talent)
5. Intensify Spell
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8.
Arcane Trickster
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11.
13.
15.
17.
At 18:
BAB +11
Base saves +5/+11/+7
CL 18, 6th-level spells
Sneak Attack 7D6