What would a Rare class look like?

[Loreguard]

Rare class potentially designed to be an option for a specific monstrous ancestry. We've seen an example of a prominent 3rd party with a Rare ancestry, that has access to a couple of Archetypes to help members of this ancestry lean into their ancestry further and involve a greater percentage of their abilities in the ancestry, even though they stick with a normal class. But one might like the idea of being a 'stereotypical' dragon, more than specifically a wizard, fighter, or cleric than happens to be a dragon.

It opens up a more full exploration of monstrous ancestral powers, and they can instead dip into other 'jobs/stereotypes' by way of Archetypes. It would be easy to imagine such a class being Rare. (it involves having an exceptional ancestry, and on top of that moving away from they typical classes)

Other examples of potential Rare classes.
Things that break expected norms... but may not be inherently unbalanced outside of the games/stories they would exist.

A SkyCaptain class...
They have an exceptional ability to control and pilot magical ships that can fly through the air between Cloud islands... Just for the sake of throwing a concept out, it otherwise is a Mixed Martial, but has some access to some Cantrip magic, and natural ability and affinity to invest the helm of these ships and control them. (there might also be an Class Archetype that can get you some of their abilities to control the ship)

This Class 'presupposes the existence and availability of these SkyShips' which is something one should not 'pre-suppose'. But once that assumption has been made, the class itself isn't necessarily any more powerful than other classes. Such a change of baseline would both make long term flying less specifically valuable, while might make short term flying or long range jumping even more valuable, to the campaign. But these aspect warrants it being called RARE, but doesn't mean the class itself isn't necessarily Balanced.

Other things that might trigger rarity would some sort of class that presumes unlocking/being a part of some other genre that might otherwise be level locked. Be that Underwater, or even multi-planer. If some class allowed jumping between planes, even at a lower level, it might enable some sort of multi-planer adventure for low level characters.

Perhaps one might have a set of classes designed to run a Fantasy (non-technological) story of Privateers in the Diaspora. Granting abilities to have them navigate between boulders/islands with various isolated atmospheres. (potentially something like the SkyCaptain class above?

I agree that generally speaking, rarity should not be designed to change the power level inherently, but it might be intended for situations where something typically higher level/power becomes more common, available and thus feel like it would have a that effect. (or if utilized without that change in assumptions it might grant something with more power). If you have a rare feat that unlocks easy flight at low levels, without any other changes... might make the ancestry with access to it notably more powerful during the lower levels. (however, once at the higher levels that advantage may well vanish)

Anyway, I see some potential for Rare classes, but I also see it less likely to be in a lot of rulebooks. It would probably be a class that was needed to unlock some type of new play that isn't otherwise viable in currently existing settings we generally see. There are probably normally easier ways to unlock such play with magic items or ancestry availability. However, a new class might be a viable option in some cases.

[AnimatedPaper]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I don't think "stronger than the baseline" is a good thing to do at the class level anyway. Since presumably the party will consist of a number of classes that are at the baseline, it's seldom good when one player gets more stuff because of a top level choice they made.

If you wanted to tell a story with PCs who are uncommonly capable, things like free archetype, deep backgrounds, and dual classing works better.

True, but reading your post, it occurs to me that ancestry, general, and skill feats are technically linked to your class. So it’s theoretically possible to have a class that reduces or eliminates those feat slots entirely for more mechanics (or just more class feats).

Which I suppose would qualify it as “stronger than baseline” while not actually breaking those guidelines.

And even if perfectly balanced, something that edits the base assumptions that thoroughly would certainly warrant a rare tag.

[Sasha Laranoa Harving]

Classes that are designed for individual campaigns that have unique mechanics seem like a good mechanical starting place for rare classes to me, especially if you give the framing that they're really only possible in that environment or a very similar one.

Some examples...

1. Ringmaster, which interacts with the circus mechanic from Extinction Curse.
2. Academician, which interacts with the academia mechanic from Strength of Thousands.
3. Royal, which interacts with the kingdom mechanic from Kingmaker.

While they could be used in other campaigns that use versions of those mechanics, they would likely require some amount of adjustment.

[Temperans]

Following that logic, rare classes could also revolve around alterante rules when just an archetype wouldn't be enough. For example a "Wordcaster" class would make a lot more sense as a class than just an archetype.

On that note, rare classes could also be used for "Collab" classes like Vampire Hunter and Omdura. Classes that could in theory exist in Golarion, but were actually created for a different setting.

[Captain Morgan]

Sasha Laranoa Harving wrote:

Classes that are designed for individual campaigns that have unique mechanics seem like a good mechanical starting place for rare classes to me, especially if you give the framing that they're really only possible in that environment or a very similar one.

Some examples...

1. Ringmaster, which interacts with the circus mechanic from Extinction Curse.
2. Academician, which interacts with the academia mechanic from Strength of Thousands.
3. Royal, which interacts with the kingdom mechanic from Kingmaker.

While they could be used in other campaigns that use versions of those mechanics, they would likely require some amount of adjustment.

Making a whole class for a single campaign seems indulgent, doesn't it? A full class with feats is like 20+ pages. I really can't see those being squeezed into an AP or player's guide. It also might feel like you're being punished by not selecting the unique class if that's the only class that fully interacts with the campaign mechanics, and that's limiting.

[Temperans]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Sasha Laranoa Harving wrote:

Classes that are designed for individual campaigns that have unique mechanics seem like a good mechanical starting place for rare classes to me, especially if you give the framing that they're really only possible in that environment or a very similar one.

Some examples...

1. Ringmaster, which interacts with the circus mechanic from Extinction Curse.
2. Academician, which interacts with the academia mechanic from Strength of Thousands.
3. Royal, which interacts with the kingdom mechanic from Kingmaker.

While they could be used in other campaigns that use versions of those mechanics, they would likely require some amount of adjustment.

Making a whole class for a single campaign seems indulgent, doesn't it? A full class with feats is like 20+ pages. I really can't see those being squeezed into an AP or player's guide. It also might feel like you're being punished by not selecting the unique class if that's the only class that fully interacts with the campaign mechanics, and that's limiting.

True but in some specific campaigns it might work. If they are for specific campaigns they wouldn't need as many feats as the important part of a class vs archetype is the stat block, which could be greately simplified. I can see it for example in a dual class campaign where you are also offered some campaign specific rare classes.

But otherwise yeah, I agree it would be extremely indulgent.

[UnArcaneElection]

SuperBidi wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

Any stryx spellcaster is broken ( being able to achieve permanent flying speed equal to your movement speed is also good by lvl 17 with uncommon ones ).

I've never cast Fly on a caster during combat, always on martials. PC casters don't need to fly at all, they need to stay behind the protection of martials (NPC casters on the other hand love to fly as their martials won't protect them). Martials need to fly as they sometimes have to get to a flying enemy.

{. . .}

What about for the purpose of keeping the casters above the fray of big bruisers, or for outright escape (not necessarily from the whole fight, but to get away from a sudden charge by a caster-squisher)?

[WatersLethe]

Qaianna wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Child of a deity.

SciFi-based class.

'Child of a deity' sounds more like a rare versatile heritage, just like 'aasimar' assumes a celestial in your family tree or 'half-orc' assumes a human in there.

Battlezoo showed that powerful ancestries paired with class archetypes and dedications can get you the flavor of playing something that the budget of an ancestry typically doesn't allow.

I could see a whole class paired with a godling ancestry as a way to do a Demigod setting, but archetypes are more likely.

[Sasha Laranoa Harving]

@Captain Morgan: If it were to be released by Paizo, then yes, I would agree it doesn't seem fair. But the question wasn't "what rare class do you think is likely to be released by Paizo?" The question was "what would a rare class look like?"

I think that the ringmaster, academician, and royal classes I detailed are all things that could be released on Pathfinder Infinite, and appropriately answer the question asked. And I don't think it's punitive at all to not invest as thoroughly as someone else in the campaign's mechanics. Different people play campaigns for different reasons.

That said, these rare classes would, by virtue of being rare, require GM input and (in the ideal situation) likely a discussion with the other players, so if a player DOES feel like another player's class choice is punitive to them, it just doesn't get played.

[Sanityfaerie]

More broadly, any sort of class that needs to interact with an otherwise optional rule or mechanic would do it. It does't need to be inherently tied to a single campaign, but... a fair number of the classes that are coming out of Battlezoo, for example, are based on things that are effectively optional rules.

Also, any sort of class that has as an inherent part of its lore something that some people would fund fundamentally objectionable. For examples... well, honestly, the 3rd ed Book of Vile Darkness has you covered there. PF2 versions of any of those things would most certainly be rare.

[Captain Morgan]

Sasha Laranoa Harving wrote:

@Captain Morgan: If it were to be released by Paizo, then yes, I would agree it doesn't seem fair. But the question wasn't "what rare class do you think is likely to be released by Paizo?" The question was "what would a rare class look like?"

I think that the ringmaster, academician, and royal classes I detailed are all things that could be released on Pathfinder Infinite, and appropriately answer the question asked. And I don't think it's punitive at all to not invest as thoroughly as someone else in the campaign's mechanics. Different people play campaigns for different reasons.

That said, these rare classes would, by virtue of being rare, require GM input and (in the ideal situation) likely a discussion with the other players, so if a player DOES feel like another player's class choice is punitive to them, it just doesn't get played.

Fair points, Sasha!

[JiCi]

Here's a better question: which returning P1E class would qualify as rare, if any?

[AnimatedPaper]

JiCi wrote:

Here's a better question: which returning P1E class would qualify as rare, if any?

The ones Temperans mentioned, Omdura, Vampire Hunter, and Gentleman classes all seem likely for this.

[LoreLurker]

RiverMesa wrote:

When it comes to the mehcanically-defined rarity mechanic, most classes in the game are common - Guns & Gears gave us our first uncommon classes, linked to thematic elements (gunpowder firearms and advanced steampunk tech) not found in every part of the world.

What, then, could a Rare class look like? What mechanical or thematic elements could warrant such rarity - and how could you go about accessing it?

It's unlikely we'll ever get one officially for a number of reasons, but if 13th Age, an RPG in the same fantasy d20 lineage as D&D and Pathfinder, can have what's functionally a Unique-rarity class (The Occultist), then surely Pathfinder could theoretically support Rare classes as well, right?

(I'm aware of Jason Bulmahn's Eventide and how it makes primal classes like druid rare to show that primal magic is all but gone in the world, but that's obviously third-party that plays by different assumptions than mainline Pathfinder and moreover the Lost Omens setting do; It's certainly the most prominent existing example, though.)

Wish alchemy maybe? Maybe a class that uses shoanti runes to du-du-dudu-dudududududu-duel?

Maybe a Gurkha or a ninja or an astrologist class from tian xia.

Arcadia may have something in store too.

[Albatoonoe]

I could see a rare class being one that significantly alters normal aspects of a character, making it further from a shared baseline. Stuff like significant downsides or the inability to communicate.

[CorvusMask]

Sidenote, any class heavily themed around tech or Distant Worlds themes would likely be rare.

Also realized we could definitely have solarians in pathfinder :p Like they were bought to pact worlds by kasatha. So even if we assume that solarians didn't exist yet even as proto form when kasatha were hunter-gatherers, if there ever was adventure about bringing the hunter-gatherer kasathas who have been on stasis for thousands of years back to modern kasatha, we could still meet them xD

[The Raven Black]

The Frenzied Berserker who attacked their own allies should be Rare too if it was ever ported.

[UnArcaneElection]

^Frenzied Berserker would definitely be Rare . . . because it isn't well-done.