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keftiu wrote:

Vardoc Bloodstone wrote:

keftiu wrote:

People can be chubby or fat without being unhealthy.

Yes, people can naturally have different body shapes. But to call them chubby or fat is uncalled for.

I think treating "fat" as an utterly verboten word does far more harm than using it. It's just a descriptor of something natural and normal; acting like it's the worst thing someone can possibly be serves to further societal fatphobia, not combat it. The more it can be normalized, the lesser the stigma - it’s only negative if you frame it as such, and I’m not sure why you would.

Fat people exist! I'd like to see more of them in fantasy, in roles other than monstrous parodies, gluttonous nobles, and cowardly merchants.

That's kind of where they'd be most likely to pop up though. The rich and bakers/inkeepers/tavern owners/other people that work with cooking food.

The baseline salary isn't very high and most work is hard.

(Not just talking a historical perspective here, a skilled hireling is poor already and most people probably count as unskilled.)

I think it’s more common in larger towns and cities. Especially ones with an industrial capacity or ones the act as distribution points. You won’t need to go far for work and leads to a more sedentary lifestyle. Parts of jalmeray and absolam come to mind immediately.

Vardoc Bloodstone wrote:

keftiu wrote:

People can be chubby or fat without being unhealthy.

Yes, people can naturally have different body shapes. But to call them chubby or fat is uncalled for.

I think treating "fat" as an utterly verboten word does far more harm than using it. It's just a descriptor of something natural and normal; acting like it's the worst thing someone can possibly be serves to further societal fatphobia, not combat it. The more it can be normalized, the lesser the stigma - it’s only negative if you frame it as such, and I’m not sure why you would.

Fat people exist! I'd like to see more of them in fantasy, in roles other than monstrous parodies, gluttonous nobles, and cowardly merchants.

I mean my dockworker idea was meant to be a guy who is a hood and hardy person and is the lead on his team. He’s actually a great family man and pretty brave and he takes care of his family and crew. That was my vision anyway.

Paizo: Please don't remove posts without explanation. It is difficult to know which of the community guidelines were broken, if any, when posts simply disappear. And even more difficult to avoid repeating offenses that are not known to have happened in the first place.

What post was removed?

LoreLurker wrote:

keftiu wrote:

That Ancestral penalty to Constitution and a lot of fatphobic fantasy genre inertia keep most elves pretty slim in art, but I don't think anything precludes them from putting on weight or muscle like anyone else.

I was under the assumption that the negative in con was because of disease. Humans can adapt very quickly and pass on resistances to many diseases while being carriers for them being so populace, and since elves have such long life spans it would mean that a plague humans suffered from a hundred years ago, deadly or not, would still affect an elf where as the generation’s of humans after succeed more at driving away such ailments.

I imagine that weak immune systems lead them to be thin. Do you know why "barbarians" were depicted as tall and muscular? Actually, they were normal size. The ancient city dwellers were the ones that were small and puny.

Why is that? Well, in an ancient city, you got your water that is down stream from where 500 other people dump their chamber pots, and your meals consisted 98% of a single staple crop. In comparisons, barbarians had a varied diet, and they lived in smaller social groups with plenty of living space.

While elves probably do not haven these issues, their general weak immune system leaves them vulnerable. sidenote- I imagine dwarves have a con bonus because tunnel life made the specifically adapt in opposition of this problem.

Well they’re thin cause their bone structure is like that naturally. They’re not depicted as weak in any regard but rather graceful. A 10 point buck is massive but it runs gracefully. And yeah I imagine this is why dwarves have a con bonus too. Keeps them from saying “I got the black lung pa”

When it comes to the mehcanically-defined rarity mechanic, most classes in the game are common - Guns & Gears gave us our first uncommon classes, linked to thematic elements (gunpowder firearms and advanced steampunk tech) not found in every part of the world.

What, then, could a Rare class look like? What mechanical or thematic elements could warrant such rarity - and how could you go about accessing it?

It's unlikely we'll ever get one officially for a number of reasons, but if 13th Age, an RPG in the same fantasy d20 lineage as D&D and Pathfinder, can have what's functionally a Unique-rarity class (The Occultist), then surely Pathfinder could theoretically support Rare classes as well, right?

(I'm aware of Jason Bulmahn's Eventide and how it makes primal classes like druid rare to show that primal magic is all but gone in the world, but that's obviously third-party that plays by different assumptions than mainline Pathfinder and moreover the Lost Omens setting do; It's certainly the most prominent existing example, though.)

Wish alchemy maybe? Maybe a class that uses shoanti runes to du-du-dudu-dudududududu-duel?

Maybe a Gurkha or a ninja or an astrologist class from tian xia.

Arcadia may have something in store too.

I just presumed it had to do with a combination of genetic structure and diet as to why elves are not fat, but I do feel that the fact they are not human is enough as to why they don’t vary as much as humans do.

Well that is true and a good point but that being said a Neanderthal could be skinny and dainty. Would a Neanderthal be skinny or dainty? Unlikely as the time when they existed required more musculature and fat to survive, but if they had survived into our modern day they’d look a lot different then back in the Stone Age. The only factor that would make a dainty Neanderthal look different is the robust bone structure they naturally have.

As to why they don’t vary different? I’m not sure what you mean but if it’s the dimorphism in elves then as far as I’m aware it’s baked in and it’s fine. It’s pretty unique too.

Vardoc Bloodstone wrote:

I liked the elf that was presented in the Lost Omens Grand Bazaar book.

That said, I think an argument can be made that elves are more likely to be health-conscious given their long lifespans, and their diet is more fruit, nut, and vegetable-based by comparison. So from a cultural perspective, overweight elves are just less common.

People can be chubby or fat without being unhealthy.

And that’s where I was going with my post. I’m not talking about unhealthy but I am at least saying there can be more. James Jacobs makes a great point on the uncanny valley part and I appreciate it a lot!

In another comment in this thread I do make a point that elves do prefer aesthetics in fantasy and I believe that can be a factor along with diet but what if an elf lives among a largely human population and marries a human. Does that hold sway on how graceful the person in question looks still or would said elf adopt a more human lifestyle or habit. I think it’s uncommon or rare and maybe a surprise to see but I don’t think it can’t happen. There isn’t any art made by paizo is all and that’s fine. It has no bearings on the game at all. Especially when a big part of the game is creation.

I liked the elf that was presented in the Lost Omens Grand Bazaar book.

That said, I think an argument can be made that elves are more likely to be health-conscious given their long lifespans, and their diet is more fruit, nut, and vegetable-based by comparison. So from a cultural perspective, overweight elves are just less common.

Oh, agreed! I don’t think they are common and I think elves in fantasy have a pension towards aesthetics more too so that is a factor to me too. It doesn’t mean “can’t” though and that’s where I’m at and why I’m asking and trying to learn. Golarion is great, but I want to and need to learn about it more. I’m very thankful that people like you can come in and answer my questions like this.

That all said... we HAVE tried to do art of overweight elves, for example, before, but the results end up looking more like we're trying to be funny or cute. As someone who's struggled with obesity for decades (thanks, pandemic, for disrupting my largest weight loss ever), overweight elf art often, to me, feels like the artist is making fun of me. That is CERTAINLY my own insecurity and shame over my weight manifesting, but it's worth noting that art of overweight humans or halflings or dwarves doesn't trigger me that way.

So... maybe some day that might change, but for the moment... body diversity is something we tend to focus on representing with our human characters, because when you start doing that with non-human characters it can really quickly get gross and have the wrong effect on the people you're trying to include.

It's a pretty sensitive topic, and I hope that folks understand—this wasn't an easy post to write for me but I wanted to get it out there so people know that it's a lot more complicated than it sounds to significantly change body shapes for non-human creatures.

Mr. Jacobs, thank you for sharing that. I too understand how hard weight loss can be. The pandemic did me no favors either. You did not come off the wrong way in your last post and I honestly appreciate it. Thank you.

That being said I feel like this post can help people with npc ideas for the future at least and hopefully lead to a trove of beautiful and inspiring ideas.

Also the uncanny valley is a hard one to traverse x.x

We generally avoid this for our elves—they also don't get wrinkled as they age. Elves are not humans. It's important to have a wide range of skin tones for elves (and dwarves and halflings and gnomes, etc.) but we try to keep our elf/dwarf/halfling/gnome silhouettes pretty identifiable, since that (along with other visual markers, like hairy feet or pointed ears or whatever) is important from a game brand issue (we want our elves/dwarves/gnomes/halflings etc. to be identifyably Pathfinder, while remaining at the same time obviously elves/dwarves/etc.). For the same reason we avoid doing 6-foot-tall halflings or gnomes, or super skinny dwarves, or goblins with non-sharp teeth, etc.

Despite the ever-expanding range of ancestry options in the game, Golarion does remain a humanocentric world, and when it comes to representation it's through our human characters that we're doing the most of the focus and work on.

And I can understand that that’s why the art doesn’t exist. Elves in Pathfinder are pretty distinct just facially to me and I appreciate the art you guys produce a lot. It’s the problem of my dm not allowing it in a private campaign for petty reasons and trying to justify it. None of it reflects on the company in anyway. To me just because there is no art does not equate to “it can’t be done in a homemade campaign or be a player character”. (Though feel free to correct me as I read that as “we don’t produce art of it due to the challenges and we want to make characters identifiable at a glance”) Thank you for taking the time to reply Mr. Jacobs, hopefully one day you guys can crack the code to it, but you don’t have to. This was never intended as a criticism of your art or the company. It was a question born from a heated argument and trying to understand it is all. I want to learn about golarion and the rest of the pathfinder universe.

Just been pondering this for a good month if that wasn’t clear. Also the only npc in my original description I thought of was the lawful evil mob boss elf.

Ooh... I wonder how elves carry fat... It's so hard to picture since so much of their visual identity is 'tall slender humans' but it would be really neat to see if they carry it in a slightly different way than a human body might? Just minor distribution differences perhaps.

In a previous reply I suggest their bone structure is different. A human who is 220 might look wider than an elf who is 220 or the elf who is 220 might look like a person who is 235. I think they have narrower hips and shoulders which also might help make them look less sexually dimorphic.

That Ancestral penalty to Constitution and a lot of fatphobic fantasy genre inertia keep most elves pretty slim in art, but I don't think anything precludes them from putting on weight or muscle like anyone else.

I was under the assumption that the negative in con was because of disease. Humans can adapt very quickly and pass on resistances to many diseases while being carriers for them being so populace, and since elves have such long life spans it would mean that a plague humans suffered from a hundred years ago, deadly or not, would still affect an elf where as the generation’s of humans after succeed more at driving away such ailments.

My former DM said they physically couldn’t be fat and that the negative in con meant they didn’t have the bone density. However in PF1 there’s a blurb that says they are skinny bone wise but their bones are sturdy. So to me it seems it should be read more as narrower hips and shoulders and overall bone structure than anything else.

Just wondering but is there an actual reason elves aren’t fat? I’m not even talking obese either because if you factor in a bit of realism then most humans won’t be fat. However, why can’t elves get a little chubby? Why do they always look like they’ve been fasting? I’m sure there have to be elven shop keeps or bartenders who have a pounch or a beer gut. Conversely you don’t see many elves with huge muscles. Idk if there are gladiators but they want to look strong for the fans I’d think. And if we meet in the middle why are there no dad bod types? A dockworker with a muscle gut and a bit of brawn on the arms and legs who has a loving shoanti wife who decided to stay in his hometown and an optimistic half elven child waits for him at home. You meet him using the a home in every port feat and stay with them for a night. Why can’t that be a thing? Also, if you want an obese character then why not a elvish shadow leader of a gang that uses bribes to get political influence and uses its strength to assert and maintain power. He claims to be a devout follower of calistria but that manifests in a largely hedonistic lifestyle. Think hedonismbot but lawful evil. You could take him down using a information network through a network of local calistrians but he has his own so it’s an information war taking the party to locations to get more evidence to show the government and temple of calistria.

I’ve been told it can’t and I’ve tried to find things on it to justify the “can not” but it seems inconclusive aside from a blurb on the wiki saying citation needed. Obviously these are mostly npc ideas but the dockworker idea I like as he can be a very wholesome player character I feel. I’m really looking for an answer.