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I would like each of the elements to have some variable action impulses (1-3 actions) one of the big problem with variable action spells is it can feel wasteful to spend a spell slot on anything other than the 2-3 action version of the spell.
Kineticist doesn't waste a resource, and instead are just making the most of an opportunity. I think each element should get a variable action impulse at mid levels to play around with.
This actually would be a great idea if most impulses end up having variable action costs as that increases the amount of options a single feat selection gives you, ultimately translating to more bang for your buck which I think might be a good thing for a class that might end up feeling feat starved.
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It is interesting people say they want variable action activities, but balk at the action cost of activities that boost other activities, as being action economy destroyers. It the long run, the power output for either will probably end up the same, but if people are happy to have the actions built into the activity, I guess that is an option. It just feels like that will take up much more book space than giving us more single action activities that boost what other activities can do.
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Spending one action to stoke element at the end of your turn will very likely do way more damage on the overflow area of effect ability you can do next turn than even striking with a blast and then just doing the overflow ability.
A one action AoE light, assuming it didn’t have the overflow trait is not very likely to change this.
I understand some people would prefer constant smaller damage than building up and bigger damage bursts, but that is pretty much the difference between blasts and overflow abilities now.
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You do remember Stoke element is not universal, don't you?Spending one action to stoke element at the end of your turn will very likely do way more damage on the overflow area of effect ability you can do next turn than even striking with a blast and then just doing the overflow ability.
A one action AoE light, assuming it didn’t have the overflow trait is not very likely to change this.
People say "Dedicated gate is terrible and gets nothing at higher levels, but then write off that Stoke element is the primary damage booster for Overflow impulses in the game, but don't engage with it in their white board calculations.
Now maybe the "action tax" feel of it is not fun, but that feels to me the exact same as having variable action impulses that do more damage with more actions, which I would rather see separated out into separate actions instead of singular activities with variable action costs.
You do remember Stoke element is not universal, don't you?Spending one action to stoke element at the end of your turn will very likely do way more damage on the overflow area of effect ability you can do next turn than even striking with a blast and then just doing the overflow ability.
A one action AoE light, assuming it didn’t have the overflow trait is not very likely to change this.
People say "Dedicated gate is terrible and gets nothing at higher levels, but then write off that Stoke element is the primary damage booster for Overflow impulses in the game, but don't engage with it in their white board calculations.
Now maybe the "action tax" feel of it is not fun, but that feels to me the exact same as having variable action impulses that do more damage with more actions, which I would rather see separated out into separate actions instead of singular activities with variable action costs.
The issue with stoke if that it's locked to a gate, doesn't kick until 6th AND doesn't take effect until your next round: you can very well lose the bonus if your enemies die/move or you get an effect that limits your actions and/or ability to target. It's a real gamble and I can see why it's not factored into damage calculations as those kind of variables aren't something you can put a number on.
PS: I actually passed on stoke with my dedicated gate [took clear air instead] because of these issues: far too often there isn't enough actions as/is and having to guess that stoke will be useful next round isn't for me.
It seems incredibly rare to me that you would lose all three of your actions in a round to not even be able to Blast. Do you often go rounds where you do zero damage, graystone?
You do remember Stoke element is not universal, don't you?Spending one action to stoke element at the end of your turn will very likely do way more damage on the overflow area of effect ability you can do next turn than even striking with a blast and then just doing the overflow ability.
A one action AoE light, assuming it didn’t have the overflow trait is not very likely to change this.
People say "Dedicated gate is terrible and gets nothing at higher levels, but then write off that Stoke element is the primary damage booster for Overflow impulses in the game, but don't engage with it in their white board calculations.
Now maybe the "action tax" feel of it is not fun, but that feels to me the exact same as having variable action impulses that do more damage with more actions, which I would rather see separated out into separate actions instead of singular activities with variable action costs.
The issue with stoke if that it's locked to a gate, doesn't kick until 6th AND doesn't take effect until your next round: you can very well lose the bonus if your enemies die/move or you get an effect that limits your actions and/or ability to target. It's a real gamble and I can see why it's not factored into damage calculations as those kind of variables aren't something you can put a number on.
PS: I actually passed on stoke with my dedicated gate [took clear air instead] because of these issues: far too often there isn't enough actions as/is and having to guess that stoke will be useful next round isn't for me.
These are aspects of the feat that are pretty easy to dial in. I think the developers feel like these damage boosts are pretty high (given the Kineticist's abilities are so Multi-target focused) and then seeing how much people actually use it.
Who knows how much other damage boosters are planned into other parts of class, so it is less a question of whether Stoke fixes the existing damage disparity, and more if the boost itself is worth the action and restrictions tied to it.
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It seems incredibly rare to me that you would lose all three of your actions in a round to not even be able to Blast. Do you often go rounds where you do zero damage, graystone?
You have a 20'/30' range and the opponent has a high speed or you need to gather and move or the target hides and/or goes invisible or you have to deal with difficult terrain and cover. Losing actions to slow/stun just makes an already tight action economy even tighter before adding yet another action to boost damage next round. For me, the ability to go invisible and get a bonus from flatfooted trumped extra damage next round.
As to how many rounds I did 0 damage, quite a few actually. Gather energy and wings of air is 3 action, soothing breeze is 3 actions, Deflecting Wave reaction is overflow which requires a gather afterwards. Now if you meant how often I couldn't attack then very few but that number increases quite a bit if it's how often did it make sense not to use an attack vs something else [especially at the cost of another action I need to spend].
These are aspects of the feat that are pretty easy to dial in. I think the developers feel like these damage boosts are pretty high (given the Kineticist's abilities are so Multi-target focused) and then seeing how much people actually use it.
The thing is, most of those multi-target options require multiple actions to use AND an extra action to gather afterwards, meaning you are looking at 3-4 actions without even factoring in stoke which make is hard to even find the actions to get into position for those attacks.
Who knows how much other damage boosters are planned into other parts of class, so it is less a question of whether Stoke fixes the existing damage disparity, and more if the boost itself is worth the action and restrictions tied to it.
I agree and for myself, I don't think it is: I find the delay wonky and the extra action cost too much when the class already wants you to spend an extra action on overflow on 2-3 action attacks.
I mean, is stoke worth enough that it's worth more than just making an attack with a blast for the same action cost? For instance, if I do a flinging updraft, is +2 damage on an attack next round vs a blast this round? To me, it's the blast since I know the position of myself and the enemies while I don't know that next round.
For me, I used an elemental wisp to get a +1 damage to all my elemental attacks without needing an action [1st level familiar feat + familiar master dedication] and it could turn into a tattoo so I didn't have to worry about it or spend actions on it.
It seems incredibly rare to me that you would lose all three of your actions in a round to not even be able to Blast. Do you often go rounds where you do zero damage, graystone?You have a 20'/30' range and the opponent has a high speed or you need to gather and move or the target hides and/or goes invisible or you have to deal with difficult terrain and cover. Losing actions to slow/stun just makes an already tight action economy even tighter before adding yet another action to boost damage next round. For me, the ability to go invisible and get a bonus from flatfooted trumped extra damage next round.
So rather than spend one action for a bonus to your next attack, you decided to spend three. That's a valid choice, but kind of undercuts your position.
Everything else is the same as other characters deal with. If you have to gather and move, you still have an action to Blast.
Now maybe the "action tax" feel of it is not fun, but that feels to me the exact same as having variable action impulses that do more damage with more actions, which I would rather see separated out into separate actions instead of singular activities with variable action costs.
It's like variable action abilities, but you can spend actions across your turns.
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So rather than spend one action for a bonus to your next attack, you decided to spend three. That's a valid choice, but kind of undercuts your position.
No, it's 1 PLUS whatever actions the next attack is vs those 3 actions so at best it's 2+ actions over 2 rounds vs 3 action in the same round. I don't think that undercuts anything as to me actions that have effects next round are worth less that actions that have an effect this round. I know the situation this round but I don't know what it'll be next round.
Everything else is the same as other characters deal with. If you have to gather and move, you still have an action to Blast.
Not if have to stoke as that's move, gather and stoke not blast. Now if it's the next round, I have 3 actions and actions that take between 1-3 actions but I don't know if move and gather will leave me in a position to blast while I DO know what my action will do in the first round. Other classes don't have to delay an damage boost till next round: magus spellstrikes all in a round, barbarian deals damage for a duration, Panache stays until you use it, Precision rangers damage is the first hit/round, overdrive works right after you use it, boost eidolon works that round: So I disagree other classes have to deal with this.
I think the wording on stoke is needlessly restrictive and a little difficult to parse. I begrudge no one for not using it. It is weird that it doesn't seem like it will work well with blast barrage, but on Storm Spiral (I was testing level 11 so I had elemental flexibility), the +6 damage on each target was nearly a free highten. On boomerang it was like 2.5 hightened.
I also avoided it with my first test, but on the second test it was interesting to play with.
I think the wording on stoke is needlessly restrictive and a little difficult to parse. I begrudge no one for not using it. It is weird that it doesn't seem like it will work well with blast barrage, but on Storm Spiral (I was testing level 11 so I had elemental flexibility), the +6 damage on each target was nearly a free highten. On boomerang it was like 2.5 hightened.
I also avoided it with my first test, but on the second test it was interesting to play with.
I tried it but found myself in situations where it was difficult to use the next round as people/foes move around making it so that I couldn't hit as many people or party members where in the way. I tried to focus on my elemental abilities vs generic ones like blast barrage and chain blast: I can see having an easier time if I had used them instead but I wanted to try out as much as I could to see what I liked and didn't. That and doubling the actions needed to make a simple blast for +2 damage didn't seem so good to me.
I'm hoping stoke will be reworked into a core mechanic similar to overdrive. Remove the next turn restriction and let it last until using an overflow and it'll be a lot better.
I think it could be folded into gather energy: spend a gather energy action after the first and gain a +1 damage each time you do so [until whatever cap they make like Con modifier] until an overflow is used.
So rather than spend one action for a bonus to your next attack, you decided to spend three. That's a valid choice, but kind of undercuts your position.No, it's 1 PLUS whatever actions the next attack is vs those 3 actions so at best it's 2+ actions over 2 rounds vs 3 action in the same round. I don't think that undercuts anything as to me actions that have effects next round are worth less that actions that have an effect this round. I know the situation this round but I don't know what it'll be next
You are very inconsistent in how you are counting actions.
You are very inconsistent in how you are counting actions.So rather than spend one action for a bonus to your next attack, you decided to spend three. That's a valid choice, but kind of undercuts your position.No, it's 1 PLUS whatever actions the next attack is vs those 3 actions so at best it's 2+ actions over 2 rounds vs 3 action in the same round. I don't think that undercuts anything as to me actions that have effects next round are worth less that actions that have an effect this round. I know the situation this round but I don't know what it'll be next
It doesn't seem that way to me. We're dealing with a class that has the majority of abilities taking 2-3 actions and stoke in essence adds another action on top of those attacks and makes basic attacks cost 2 actions. Then you add on top of that overwhelm abilities adding an additional action on top of that for a new gather energy action. If you have to move, seek, or other things it's hard enough as/is without spending an action and hoping you'll have the actions and positioning opportunities to use the abilities you want.
Could I blow 2 actions over 2 rounds to get a 1d4+2 damage with an air blast most rounds? Sure, but that's about the least exciting option I can think of for 2 actions.
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5 - General feats for Natural Ambition
Natural Ambition can only be taken once.
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Now maybe the "action tax" feel of it is not fun, but that feels to me the exact same as having variable action impulses that do more damage with more actions, which I would rather see separated out into separate actions instead of singular activities with variable action costs.What I meant is hypothetical varied-actions impulses would be for everyone, but Stoke is only for one gate and this 'solution' doesn't work for the class in general.
And generally I don't care that much about particular mechanics version provided the end result is good: useful lesser actions impulses and any sort of empowerment that gives good power boost for actions (and potentially resources) spent.
Not a fan of pf1's burn though.
Hypothetical impulses that had variable actions would only be useful for characters that can and do choose that one impulse. Impulse riders could be feats that can be used on any impulse. If multiple impulses would end up with similar riders, it would eat up a lot of book space to have them be connected to the feats instead of something that worked more like metamagic
Variable Action Impulses seems like it could be a good idea. Also if we had Variable Action Impulses we could probably get rid of Overflow. Anything balanced around Overflow could just have the Overflow equivalent level of Damage/Control available at a certain action threshold.
Though it would mean we probably wouldn't want a high level class feature to Gather as a free action, and instead have it give a free action each round to spend on one of the actions for a Variable Action Impulse.