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One thing I want to know about is why is Isger not part of Cheliax but instead just a vassal state. Considering the length of time that passed since it was brought into the Chelish empire, shouldn't it be part of Cheliax. So the question of why isn't it part of it would be nice to know.
Probably because Cheliax regards it as a backwater, which is worth exploiting but not worth putting it on equal footing with the actual important regions of Cheliax.
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One thing I want to know about is why is Isger not part of Cheliax but instead just a vassal state. Considering the length of time that passed since it was brought into the Chelish empire, shouldn't it be part of Cheliax. So the question of why isn't it part of it would be nice to know.Probably because Cheliax regards it as a backwater, which is worth exploiting but not worth putting it on equal footing with the actual important regions of Cheliax.
IIRC, Isger is independent in name only - its leaders owe their positions to devil-written pacts made with House Thrune that grant them only so much leeway. Abrogail is still the power behind the throne, she just finds it convenient not to be SEEN to be in charge. As to why, having a buffer between itself and Andoran is probably pretty useful given Andoran's long-running antipathy, or during the Goblinblood Wars officially denying that goblins were conquering official Chellish territory, and having Isger facilitate trade with Druma may have also been handy while Cheliax was establishing itself and needed a less officially diabolist middle-man.
Lots of empires have nominally-independent vassals that they’re essentially running - think of Isger as something like a Fantasy Belarus, basically (in geopolitical position only, not anything else).
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Also, IIRC, Isger's current deal with Cheliax saddles it with all the obligations of a Chelaxian duchy but none of the rights. Yet another reason to let it remain "independent."
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Probably because Cheliax regards it as a backwater, which is worth exploiting but not worth putting it on equal footing with the actual important regions of Cheliax.
Equality only matters in the context of political representation, which nobody in Cheliax has due to it being an autocracy. Historically, Isger's special status has permitted it to act as an entrepot into Cheliax for Drumish capital and goods otherwise walled off by tariff. There was a brief (two-year?) period of attempted centralization after the Glorious Reclamation, that was put on indefinite hold after Tar-Baphon made his presence felt. Isger's special status currently means both that it both acts as a canary against Grafarian incursion for the Egorian government, and means they don't have to spend part of their budget defending it.
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I was thinking about Nirmathas and was wondering is nirmathas even organized enough to meet the legal definition of a country cause the only formal position they have is the forest Marshall right?
There is no "legal definition of a country," especially in a system of interstate anarchy without effective supranational institutions like Golarion's. A country is that which other countries recognize as their peer. Oprak at least has concluded treaties with, thus recognized, Nirmathas. I believe Korvosa has as well, as part of the process of settling its border with Nirmathas in the Bloodsworn Vale (part of this is now Korvosa's border with Oprak).
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The constitution I have outlined above is susceptible to being written down. Maybe I'll do that one of these days.
In furtherance of this aim, attached please find a possible text of the Kintargo Contract, to which ultimately the basic law of Ravounel must conform while it at the Cheliax Covenant endure, but which establishes the basis for the unity of Ravounel and the basic town rights of the citizens of Kintargo and Vyre.
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And, similarly, the Treaty of Confederation which confirms the unity of Ravounel, establishes many of its institutions, and extends such rights and privileges as may be determined by law (including the preexisting Kintargo Contract) equally to citizens. Included among the basic law may also be revolutionary proclamations of the Silver Council prior to the conclusion of the said treaty (but excepting the proposed draft of the Kintargo Contract, which is superseded by that set forth above, the Decree on Incorporation which is obviated by it, the Decree on the Establishment of the Council of Peers which is obviated by the Treaty of Confederation, and the Decree on the Archbarony of Cypress Point which is more in the vein of ordinary business).
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Finally among the texts of the Basic Law there is the Treaty of Peace with Cheliax (note however that the Domina is properly styled "Her Excellency" rather than "Her Ladyship").
Breaking up the basic law into a fairly small number of constitutive texts, but greater than one, is relatively common - Sweden does this, for instance.
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Brief commentary on some peculiar features of the Ravounel constitution as laid out above:
Peers other than the Domina (who must appear to meetings in person and without whom no meeting of the Council of Peers may take place) being permitted to appear by proxy was a concession to the Vyreans, whose Kings and Queens must by law and custom maintain public anonymity.
The privilege of Acisazi to receive elven dignitaries and conclude treaties with elven states is a concession to its essentially condominium status. The Silver Council receiving Nidalese dignitaries and negotiating a treaty with that country was a matter of consent and delegation.
Suffrage in the Kintargo Assembly is most properly, as outlined in the Kintargo Contract, a privilege of citizens of Kintargo, but is extended to all citizens of Ravounel on an equal basis by the operation of Article IV of the Treaty of Confederation. The Assembly's agenda is set by the Silver Council, but it reserves the power to debate and amend bills (powers denied to Roman assemblies, for instance) as well as to elect high magistrates including the Domina and judges. Jury trial in criminal matters is guaranteed by the revolutionary decrees of the Silver Council.
Other important elections include those of low and middling (essentially up to regimental) militia officers. Higher and naval officers, and cabinet ministers are appointed by and responsible to the Council of Peers, but appointments must have the consent of the Silver Council. Members of that body accordingly tend to end up in the cabinet or as generals or admirals, but the cabinet and Silver Council are not coextensive. The enumerated list of departments comes from the list of Leadership Roles in Daigle, et al., Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Campaign, at *200 - 04 (2013) - and ultimately from McCreary, et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path #32: Rivers Run Red, at *54 - 62 (2010) - whose vacancies carry a penalty. For my view of a "who's who" of the cabinet, see this post (specifically the section "Provisional Government of Ravounel (4716+) (mechanically)" - although, were I writing it today, I'd replace Geoff Tanessen in the General [Admiral] role with Cassius Sargaeta; replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Tayacet Tiora, and Tayacet Tiora in the Warden role with Octavio Sabinus while leaving the Royal Enforcer role vacant; and include Marquel Aulorian, Chuko, and Molly Mayapple on the Silver Council).
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although, were I writing it today, I'd replace Geoff Tanessen in the General [Admiral] role with Cassius Sargaeta; replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Tayacet Tiora, and Tayacet Tiora in the Warden role with Octavio Sabinus while leaving the Royal Enforcer role vacant
Actually, scratch that. Replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Jackdaw, and Belcara Jarvis in the Treasurer role with Mhelrem Gesteliel; Octavio Sabinus and Tayacet Tiora can stay Royal Enforcer and Warden respectively.
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Reposting from another thread:
If they do kill off Asmodeus, then that kinda makes the unleashing of the Rough Beast less likely since he's the guy who created the lock that seals him in the demiplane at the centre of the world - with him would go the knowledge of how it was made, or how to get through it. But if they do, given Golarion takes a lot of classical influence, I could see Dispater rising to replace him. They both fill a similar niche, and Dispater is arguable just as close to what Asmodeus is meant to be - a clear analogue to Satan who, though evil, keep their word - plus he's got a Hades/Persephone deal with Erecura a Hades/Zagreus deal with Ragathiel that would be neat to flesh out rather than just being The Big Red Guy who, let's be honest, doesn't have a lot of personality. Dispater brings some character complexity to his evil.
I don't know where it would leave Cheliax's pacts though, unless Asmodeus was very foresighted and included clauses that tied them to "the ruler of Hell" rather than Asmodeus himself. You could even end up with the Archdukes going to war with each other, but ending up settling on a joint council, suspiciously glaring at each other across a table every few aeons and keeping each other in check because disrupting the balance of power benefits nobody.
Order of the Sudden Audit.Please, give me Hellknights as the tax service. I'm begging you.Dispater is way fonder of military power than Asmodeus, from what I'm seeing, which makes me think that Asmodeus dying and Dispater stepping in could lead to Cheliax going to war. The obvious targets of Andoran and Taldor seem like they'd make good red herrings, while, being of a more strategic bent, Dispater might go straight across the Arch of Aroden and seize Rahadoum, catching *everyone* off-guard, since that's not the 'obvious' target.
As Sun Tzu would advise, "Do not go where your enemies expect you to go. Be where they are not."
Someone more militant stepping up as a patron might help with Cheliax's militarisation, but not necessarily (or immediately) invading neighbouring Rahadoum or picking a fight with Andoran and Taldor. Cheliax is already mobilising against a regional threat - Tar-Baphon. Cheliax is phasing out slavery by instead introducing conscription to serve in the forces it's sending to contain the undead hordes ravaging the former lands of Lastwall. But a simmering Cold War that will heat up years in the future (as I'm on record being for in the Cheliax thread) feels like a long-term story that could be worth telling.
If Asmodues dies and nobody replaces him as sole ruler of Hell, I could even see all the Archdevils and maybe some of the Infernal Dukes becoming patrons of different aspects of Chellish society - Mammon as patron of bankers, Dispater of prison-wardens and judges, Moloch of soldiers, Geryon of propaganda, Mephistopheles of the diplomatic corps, and so on. Just for fun, make Barbatos the patron of Cheliax's healthcare system. Really lean into Cheliax's relationship with ALL of Hell, not just Asmodeus himself, and tie all of their fortunes into Cheliax's worldly success to forestall a power vacuum.
With a Core God set to die in an upcoming storyline, and odds apparently favouring it being Asmodeus, the changes that would necessarily wrack a post-Asmodeus Chelliax if it still wanted to keep its fiendish pacts are interesting to think about. Bringing in the other Archdevils and Infernal Dukes as patrons of aspects of Chellish society, in the absence of a single successor to the throne, are interesting to think about.
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I am pretty sure the Infernal pacts binding Cheliax are strong and tight enough to weather the death of Asmodeus.
Strength and tightness only come into play if the Cheliax Covenant is a pact between Abrogail I as sovereign of Cheliax and Asmodeus as an individual as opposed to sovereign of Hell. If the pact is between two sovereigns (that is, if it is a treaty), then it continues down the succession of sovereignty while the two states continue to exist. If the pact is between a sovereign and Asmodeus as an individual, however, then it is extinguished unless it specifies that it continues through Asmodeus's heirs. It could also be a mixed agreement, that is to say, Asmodeus in his role as sovereign of Hell promises the support of Hell's military to Cheliax, while also in his role as the patron of the Church of Asmodeus promises the support of the latter to Cheliax. Something similar could be happening on the Chelish side, with, for instance, Abrogail I as sovereign of Cheliax being promised the support of Hell, and Abrogail I, and her heirs as head of House Thrune, being promised the support of the Church of Asmodeus. I suspect this is the most likely scenario.
What happens to the Church of Asmodeus in a scenario where Asmodeus dies is an open question. The institution itself probably continues to exist, but in a diminished form like the Church of Aroden, but if Asmodeus did not specify his heirs in the contract freed from its obligations unless new ones are imposed upon it by power (for instance, by a new god assuming Asmodeus's position at the head of the church, or by House Thrune or the Chelish state directly).
What happens to the Church of Asmodeus in a scenario where Asmodeus dies is an open question. The institution itself probably continues to exist, but in a diminished form like the Church of Aroden, but if Asmodeus did not specify his heirs in the contract freed from its obligations unless new ones are imposed upon it by power (for instance, by a new god assuming Asmodeus's position at the head of the church, or by House Thrune or the Chelish state directly).
As was raised in the other thread, it would be cool if Cheliax shifted away from Asmodeus alone to a Pantheon of the Archdevils, the Infernal Bureaucracy. One of the things about Pathfinder (and D&D as a whole I guess) I've always found a little weird is how it treats a polytheistic world by having mono- (or at least heno-) theistic chasses like the cleric, when real life polytheism is a lot more fluid. Having the Church of Asmodeus become more broad, encouraging the worship of the other Archdevils and some of the more important Infernal Princes as saint-like figures, offers plenty of narrative possibility even if you don't get them involved in the running of the state in lieu of Old Scratch himself.
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As was raised in the other thread, it would be cool if Cheliax shifted away from Asmodeus alone to a Pantheon of the Archdevils, the Infernal Bureaucracy. One of the things about Pathfinder (and D&D as a whole I guess) I've always found a little weird is how it treats a polytheistic world by having mono- (or at least heno-) theistic chasses like the cleric, when real life polytheism is a lot more fluid. Having the Church of Asmodeus become more broad, encouraging the worship of the other Archdevils and some of the more important Infernal Princes as saint-like figures, offers plenty of narrative possibility even if you don't get them involved in the running of the state in lieu of Old Scratch himself.What happens to the Church of Asmodeus in a scenario where Asmodeus dies is an open question. The institution itself probably continues to exist, but in a diminished form like the Church of Aroden, but if Asmodeus did not specify his heirs in the contract freed from its obligations unless new ones are imposed upon it by power (for instance, by a new god assuming Asmodeus's position at the head of the church, or by House Thrune or the Chelish state directly).
The Pantheon mechanic is the closest thing we have in PF2. But I agree. Clerics of a concept could be used for this purpose in previous editions, but this path is closed now.
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Coming into this discussion fairly late, so forgive the thread necromancy...
While I don't really have detailed opinions on Isger, Nidal, and Ravounel, I am admittedly somewhat concerned over what Cheliax proper will look like in a couple years' time.
For whatever reason, I rather like the good ol' devil empire, and so naturally I want it to stick around more or less as it has been throughout Pathfinder's lifecycle, but as others have noted, the repeated blows it has taken in recent years gives it an air of weakness that somewhat undermines the geopolitical threat that Cheliax is intended to pose. Kind of hard to take an evil empire seriously if they don't feel like they could actually win, and the biggest "win" Cheliax has had in quite a while is putting down the Glorious Reclamation (an internal rebellion that managed to take the old imperial capital of Westcrown) at roughly the same time they lost Ravounel and Vidrian.
There are compelling arguments that House Thrune ultimately came out in a stronger position overall - having consolidated power, purged dissidents, and let go of provinces that would have been difficult to hold onto long-term anyway - but from a top-level, bird's eye view, it still looks like Cheliax has suffered a string of recent losses and their one notable victory still managed to give them a very pronounced black eye. Even if they're actually stronger than ever, Cheliax currently looks somewhat weak on the geopolitical stage - as though all it would take to make them topple over is one more hard shove.
Which makes some of the things that have been confirmed and/or heavily foreshadowed for the near future (the death of at least one core deity, two great nations going to war) and the general speculation surrounding them rather concerning, as they seem to imply that Cheliax may well be due another major upheaval in the near future.
Tackling the obvious first, the hypothetical death of Asmodeus would leave Cheliax without a patron deity for the second time in ~120 years and severely weaken House Thrune, at least as far as the optics are concerned. No matter how smooth the transition of power in Hell itself may be, I can't see Cheliax swapping out its state religion - again - without a hefty dose of turmoil. Mephistopheles and the other archdevils, ancient though they may be, don't have the in-universe name recognition that Asmodeus does, so one of them taking the throne in Nessus is still going to feel like a downgrade to the Chelaxian people for quite some time. And refocusing away from a single patron deity to some sort of general "Infernal Bureaucracy" pantheon feels too...decentralized to me - if Cheliax were inclined to go for a "pax deorum"/"we need all the gods on our side that we can get" type of religious framework, they never would have turned to Asmodeus and Hell in the first place.
If Asmodeus dies and Cheliax as it exists under House Thrune is intended to survive for any meaningful length of time moving forward, I think they need a singular figure that they're already heavily invested in to rally around... Which honestly makes me wonder if the solution isn't just to put Abrogail herself at the top of the state religion, either by letting her acquire godhood through a trip to the Starstone, getting hit by a glob of godstuff as described by the upcoming exemplar class, or even pulling a Razmir and just faking it. Would really help sell the "Hell serves Cheliax" thing to make who/whatever succeeds Asmodeus play second-fiddle to the Queen herself, even if nothing else really changes in regards to the Hell-Thrune alliance.
On the more terrestrial side of things, a hypothetical war breaking out between Cheliax and Andoran (likely instigated by Andoran - an opportunistic attack hoping to take advantage of Asmodeus' death to a catch House Thrune off guard and vulnerable seems probable to me) could make for an interesting AP, but it can really only end one of two ways: either House Thrune is overthrown or Cheliax wins. I find it hard to imaging a scenario where such an AP were centered on the Andoran perspective (i.e. having the players fight against Cheliax) without them ultimately coming out victorious, and as previously discussed, Cheliax kind of needs a win in order to remain a convincing threat on the geopolitical stage.
An AP focusing on an Andoran/Cheliax war from the Chelaxian perspective could likewise be interesting in theory, but it would need to avoid being framed as an "evil AP" a la Hell's Vengeance - if they can go the Blood Lords route and try for something where playing evil/unholy is ostensibly valid, but not necessarily required, I think it could work. Let Cheliax rebound a bit, take some territory, and put Andoran on the back foot, then maybe have Tar-Baphon make a move late in the game to encourage everyone into an armistice and prevent Abby from fully wiping Andoran off the map, at least for the near future. I don't have particularly strong feelings for Andoran, but I doubt anybody wants Galt to be the last surviving bastion of democracy in Avistan...
If Asmodeus does bite it as a result of the War of Immortals storyline, I think the chances of Andoran launching a bid to "liberate" Cheliax from the rule of House Thrune go up fairly drastically, and that in turn makes an Old Cheliax book more or less mandatory (and depending on what happens to Andoran, perhaps setting up a Shining Kingdoms one as well). Would be a good opportunity to get a Lost Omens: Hellknights supplement as well.
We'll see what's happening as Divine Mysteries gets closer to release, I suppose.
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Kind of hard to take an evil empire seriously if they don't feel like they could actually win, and the biggest "win" Cheliax has had in quite a while is putting down the Glorious Reclamation (an internal rebellion that managed to take the old imperial capital of Westcrown) at roughly the same time they lost Ravounel and Vidrian.
Cheliax feels like Golarion's answer to the Realm's Zhentarim, basically existing to get smacked down by the good-guys over and over and over, and yet, for some inexplicable reason, being seen as a credible threat.
At this point, I'd be interested in seeing some of the pre-Thune history start to resurface, in places that have separated off from Cheliax due to recent upheavals, both free of imperial censors for the first time, but also perhaps due to forces that had been squirreling away 'the true history' to preserve it, and counter-forces (Norgorberites, but also perhaps Geryon cultists?) who are seizing the opportunity to plant some fake history in this 'recently uncovered truth being restored' to advance their own agendas.
Thanks to the Thrunite censorship, 'history' and 'truth' are squishier than normal in Cheliax and it's former holdings, and it would be a great time for forces in favor of truth and the advancement of knowledge and reason, like the churches of Sarenrae and Shelyn and Irori, to start whipping out the censored history and 'scandalous' artwork and 'seditious' philosophies of personal freedom and responsibility, but also more dubious groups to push narratives that legitimize themselves or undermine their rivals. (Much like folk in post WW2 France who would blame a neighbor of being a collaborater to get then dragged away, so that were eliminating a competitor, or freeing up their land or assets to seize...)
Technically Cheliax didn't lose Vidrian, since Sargava had already been independent for a century, but the two are still on poor terms with one another and IIRC there is some desire in Cheliax to retake that area, so I guess it's still something of a loss for them.
Honestly, goddess Abrogail is a really fun idea. I'd love that.
I feel like Paizo is clear that the current trajectory of Galt is that this particular reformation is likely to stick as the primary reason all the other ones failed has been removed.
Like the Galtan people have long strove for Liberté, Égalité, et Fraternité in a manner that must be taken as genuine, but there was a corrupting influence subverting their noble revolutionary project. Thankfully, some PCs killed it.
We may not be back to Galt before PF3, though based on the apparent Paizo policy of assuming not enough people have completed any given adventure that they can base a setting book or future adventure on the outcome of a specific one.
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I feel like Paizo is clear that the current trajectory of Galt is that this particular reformation is likely to stick as the primary reason all the other ones failed has been removed.
Like the Galtan people have long strove for Liberté, Égalité, et Fraternité in a manner that must be taken as genuine, but there was a corrupting influence subverting their noble revolutionary project. Thankfully, some PCs killed it.
We may not be back to Galt before PF3, though based on the apparent Paizo policy of assuming not enough people have completed any given adventure that they can base a setting book or future adventure on the outcome of a specific one.
We've had PF2 products assume that a few different PF2 APs (Age of Ashes, Fists of the Ruby Phoenix) have occurred and had a canon ending. I hope we can see more of post-NotGD Galt this edition!
We've had PF2 products assume that a few different PF2 APs (Age of Ashes, Fists of the Ruby Phoenix) have occurred and had a canon ending. I hope we can see more of post-NotGD Galt this edition!
Yeah, it's certainly possible. Since the easiest adventures to assume "they happened" was the ones that prevent a crisis or resolve a problem. Like you don't need to have run your group through Strange Aeons to insist that Golarion is still there.
But partly I think the reason the first time they addressed the Galt issue was in a PF2 *adventure* some 12 years after posing this problem was that the appetite for Galt content among the people who write PF books or decide which ones get published is minimal. Night of the Gray Death might have been just a "well, we have to address this plot hook eventually". I certainly wouldn't have minded it being spun off into an AP (like a 3 part high level one.)
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We may not be back to Galt before PF3, though based on the apparent Paizo policy of assuming not enough people have completed any given adventure that they can base a setting book or future adventure on the outcome of a specific one.
I feel like Paizo could get decent mileage out of an adventure where the PCs are running the campaign of one of the candidates to fill out the Council and/or Senate. This strictly speaking needn't require Night of the Gray Death to have happened, but also isn't excluded by it and may be enriched by it.
That said, speculation about Galtan democracy is rather outside the scope of this thread, which covers a region where democratic forces are very much in opposition, revolutionary or loyal.
I recall Firebrands covered post-Night of the Gray Death Galt a bit, though it was somewhat vague about the current state of Galt's government (or attempt at one). Understandable though, there hasn't really been time for things to stabilize.
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We've had PF2 products assume that a few different PF2 APs (Age of Ashes, Fists of the Ruby Phoenix) have occurred and had a canon ending. I hope we can see more of post-NotGD Galt this edition!Yeah, it's certainly possible. Since the easiest adventures to assume "they happened" was the ones that prevent a crisis or resolve a problem. Like you don't need to have run your group through Strange Aeons to insist that Golarion is still there.
It's not just "the disaster didn't happen," we've got Lost Omens books suggesting Hermea is under new management. (I expect a follow-up on how things are going in Mzali is inevitable and, perhaps, imminent!)
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It's not just "the disaster didn't happen," we've got Lost Omens books suggesting Hermea is under new management. (I expect a follow-up on how things are going in Mzali is inevitable and, perhaps, imminent!)
Preferably in the form of an adventure. Sticking Vidrian's and Katapesh's revolutions in the background as setting elements will never not be a disappointing coward's move, and should not be replicated going forward.
Sorry if this is necro'ing.
Purely selfish stuff, really, is all I want. I've been following things since Paizo controlled the Dungeon and Dragon Magazines but rarely got to do more than a couple individual books of different adventure paths, my knowledge of Golarion and its outer realms is scattered and sparse. The Travel Guide was neat, if only for the Cradle Minders.
Now we're doing full campaign (in Cheliax, good and neutral PCs) and I'm coming up with questions like, "Where are all the elves?" (all the city populations seem to be: x humans, x/10 halflings, x/100 tieflings. Except for one town just bustling with gnomes. And given the localized dwarven areas whether or not the hyrngar would seek them (or Cheliax itself) out as an overworld ally, or escape-route from their overbearing religion.
Given the whole setup with the King of Hell himself, I'd fully expect there to be a number of Houses who are trying to curry favor with other archdevils to try and get an edge, and demon cults popping up to try and influence other Houses that have fallen by the wayside and may want a "boost." I know the Blood War isn't a thing but Asmodeus seems like the prime target for everyone who wants power in the "lower planes." Some way that happens (like Fex in Hell's Vengeance).
Also some explanation of what "random monster encounters" are like. Most of the lists I've seen have fiendish animals, cool, some human threats, but then a bunch of devils. Would the average citizen of Cheliax have some way of fending off a lemure or peacefully bypassing an erinyes with her two bearded devils? Maybe the Church sells talismans to show you're supposed to be good with them? I appreciate these are more intelligent devils and not just ganking every human they see but does a wagoner bringing grain to town just give these things a polite nod and keep going?
I really dig the place, for adventuring. They are a bad guy like the Zhentarim, but the cities seem far more orderly (which I guess is the point), while Zhenthil Keep was more of a "hive of wretched scum and villany," where every alley had monsters (literal and mundane) eager to turn a mugging into a murder.
But I don't see it happening for a long while, it looks like some of the more long-wondered about places are getting books. Still, if anyone makes a thorough homebrewed take on Cheliax I'd probably buy it.
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"Where are all the elves?"
Speaking without comprehensive knowledge of Cheliax but more a general vibe of the area, the places where elves tend to be localized are quite far from Cheliax's borders. More to the point, given the Chelaxian disdain for all non-human ancestries, it strikes me that anyone capable of or willing to leave the country (or at least the cities with listed population) would certainly do so, meaning relatively few elves would have a good reason to settle. Elves most probably exist in Cheliax as a whole, just apparently not in large enough numbers to get out of the 'other' category that every population breakdown ends with.
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"Where are all the elves?"Speaking without comprehensive knowledge of Cheliax but more a general vibe of the area, the places where elves tend to be localized are quite far from Cheliax's borders.
This is more true for the Lost Omens Campaign Setting than it was for the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. Much of the elven population in the meta-region is of the aquatic variety, and is localized in the Arcadian Ocean. There are two small aquatic elf cities off what is now the coast of Ravounel, and since 4717 AR there has been an uptick in contact and trade between these and the mainland.
The council of thieves AP does a really great job of painting a city under Cherish rule for Westcrown. As long as you follow all the rules, never go out at night, and have minimal ambition, you can work your life away in relative safety, never really accruing any real wealth for yourself, as it all funnels up stream. You absolutely can try to get ahead and start trying to make cunning moves to exploit others, but that is when you tend to get a target on your back and you end up in over your head, making deals with the most predatory lenders and associates.
But otherwise, life is safe. There aren’t a lot of surprises, and there are worse places in Golarion to try and raise a family…as long as you are in good standing.
The whole random wandering monster thing is no doubt something filed under 'don't think too hard about it.' Considering that a single life draining undead can reduce an entire village to thralls in addition to the other nasties wandering around, a more accurate map of the world would be fortress cities and towns with vast swaths of wilderness between them.
I was watching a video about the hellknights and was wondering do we have information on the chelish prison system like famous prisons, what are the conditions in prison and are dissidents keep separate from common criminals or are they all held together? Any mention of the use of prison labor?
Cheliax has long been a supporter of slavery and recently adjusted its posture to indentured servitude. So, not great.
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Cheliax has long been a supporter of slavery and recently adjusted its posture to indentured servitude. So, not great.
Cheliax's policy at the moment is much more in line with post-emancipation Russian policy, fostering debt peonage and other systems of economic dependence of former slaves upon former slavemasters and on the bourgeoisie by eschewing land reform or state aid to former slaves. Its only similarity to a system of indentured servitude is relying on economic pressure rather than conscription to encourage enlistment into the army (and it is only similar inasmuch as that enlistment takes the form of a long-term contract).
Cheliax has long been a supporter of slavery and recently adjusted its posture to indentured servitude. So, not great.Cheliax's policy at the moment is much more in line with post-emancipation Russian policy, fostering debt peonage and other systems of economic dependence of former slaves upon former slavemasters and on the bourgeoisie by eschewing land reform or state aid to former slaves. Its only similarity to a system of indentured servitude is relying on economic pressure rather than conscription to encourage enlistment into the army (and it is only similar inasmuch as that enlistment takes the form of a long-term contract).
Yep yep! I was just speaking generally (and a little glibly). The long and short of it is that while chattel slavery isn't quite so present in Cheliax, its replacement isn't especially better in most practical senses. People are still in desperate bondage, even if the shape has changed.
So at least we can still put the boot to Thrune without problems
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Is there anything about hpw the Archdickes and Whore Queens interact in Chrloax?
Is there anything about hpw the Archdickes and Whore Queens interact in Chrloax?
Yikes, I should not type on my phone.
Well they are rather rude to others. Plus why should we show devils respect when they keep messing with us?
One thing is how do the clerics of Asmodedus have spells. Sine the queen outlaws slavery and that is against Asmodedus edicts, it’s his anathema to free a slave, singular. So should they not all be fallen clerics?
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One thing is how do the clerics of Asmodedus have spells. Sine the queen outlaws slavery and that is against Asmodedus edicts, it’s his anathema to free a slave, singular. So should they not all be fallen clerics?
Asmodeus' anathema has changed with the remaster. The new anathema are:
break a contract, share power with the weak, insult Asmodeus by showing mercy to your enemies.