Galt would have probably been another Andoran if not for the worm.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Nirmathi would object to that very strongly.How does being poorly organized but you on the level of galt. Galt was being manipulated by a conqueror worm.Galt is a great example, but fine the river kingdoms.
The point remains: unorganized == bad government == bad country. Great for individuals, sometimes.
The Nirmathi's opinions will deserve consideration when they don't have half their country annexed.
But the problem with Ravounel's state isn't "disorganization," it's decentralization and especially an extreme democratic deficit.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How does being poorly organized but you on the level of galt. Galt was being manipulated by a conqueror worm.Galt is a great example, but fine the river kingdoms.
The point remains: unorganized == bad government == bad country. Great for individuals, sometimes.
I guess the elven kingdoms would disagree.
Chaotic is not necessarily synonymous with unorganized either. It has a lot more variety than this.
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
What does being democratic have to do with a state's ability to operate competently?
A new state must cultivate legitimacy, which is not merely won through "competent" good-government. The citizens of Ravounel broadly demand that "its wealth and prestige [] be shared more equitably" than they were under Cheliax, and "are determined to build Ravounel into a fairer and kinder society." Sutter et al., Pathfinder Lost Omens World Guide, at *105 (2019). That is to say, the popular classes demand redistribution of wealth. But "the wealthy families of Kintargo [] control the shipping concerns, established industries, and domestic trade networks within the new country." Id., at *104. In order to win the demand for a social republic, the popular classes must upend the power of the Kintargo bourgeoisie (I'm including here both "true" burghers like Kohl Draksitus, as well as bourgeois aristocrats on the English model like Houses Jhaltero and Jarvis; proper rentierism was largely broken by the counter-nobility policy of the Thrune government since the Chelish Civil War), which dominates the Silver Council. That cannot happen as long as membership in the Silver Council remains a privilege conferred by adherence to the revolutionary provisional government, and is not conferred by universal, equal, and direct suffrage in regular and frequent elections, with delegates subject to immediate recall and imperative mandates. See Lundeen, et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path #147: Tomorrow Must Burn, at *59 (2019) (the Silver Council "was assembled during the rebellion that created Ravounel, replacing the city's former Court of Coin, and many people serving upon it consider their position to be a reward for backing the correct side."). And it cannot happen as long as every parochial interest is protected from democratic pressure in a federal Council of Peers. See Lost Omens World Guide, at *104 - 05. Andoran and Galt have enough problems instituting social reform even equipped with such singular and elected assemblies--Ravounel, without even elections and burdened with a federal council (and also the Board of Governors which by necessity contains open counterrevolutionaries Melodia Delronge and Geoff Tanessen (see Groves, Pathfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract, at *20, 22 (2015)), who are largely confirmed in their property rights even if "the Tanessen family's allegiance to House Thrune cost them dearly," Tomorrow Must Burn, at *40[1]), has no chance. In so many words, the road to legitimacy for Ravounel, grounded in a social republic, runs through the democratic republic. The longer the democratic republic (thus also the social republic) is denied the citizens, the less able the state will be to defend itself from foreign sabotage with popular support. The terms of the Cheliax Covenant and Kintargo Contract shall be no defense.
[1] That the class red lines of the Kintargo bourgeoisie include protecting property rights generally (that is to say, eschewing redistribution) but not necessarily patronage of any particular enterprise can be seen from the case of House Vashnarstill, which was confirmed in its property rights but denied government subsidy for its business. See Tomorrow Must Burn, at *28 - 29.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I guess the elven kingdoms would disagree.
They probably would--and they would also disdain the notion that a social alignment towards Chaos implies a political constitution based on the democratic republic. Kyonin is an autocracy. See Thorne, et al., Pathfinder Lost Omens Legends, at *106 - 07 (2020). Ironically, in attempting to align their elves away from Tolkien, Paizo has stumbled upon the quite Tolkienian concept of "anarchic monarchy," the idea of an absolute but laissez-faire and personalist sovereign.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ravounel also has the problem of needing the Council of Governors or whatever it is called of specific landed noble families to maintain the protections from Cheliax in the Kintargo Contract. Granted we don't know exactly how it works, but this board needs to ratify the Lord Mayor who can deny permission for Cheliax to deploy forces in Ravounel and if Cheliax does so, the entire Chelaxian Compact is voided.
That was the only reason the nation can exist at all because Cheliax cannot do much directly and Abrogail opted to negotiate instead.
Ravounel has a vested interest in making sure these lines have proper heirs and clean lines of inheritance, which will lead to problematic concerns when it comes time to take away their wealth and status when they are physical cornerstones of the entire nation's security against their diabolic neighbor to the south. Its also their biggest weakness as Cheliax could coerce or buy these people down the line as well.
"A clear inheritance" is not necessarily "a big inheritance" or "an intact inheritance as counted from [some date]."
Furthermore, we do know quite a bit about how the Board of Governors works, and the only property qualification it cares about is owning the right to sit on the Board of Governors. This is not tied to the ownership of any other property. Laria Longroad was able to stand for the Urvises on the basis of an ancestor's inheritance of the family's rights despite being a former slave and possessing not a sliver of the Urvis property. See The Kintargo Contrat, at *23. Likewise Carliss Mayhart was a pauper-aristocrat renting a small apartment in Villegre, all the Mayhart lands having been lost long ago. See id., at *20. That the Delronges and Tanessens were permitted to retain their stuff was not a legalistic matter of property qualification, it was a political matter of needing their votes for a super-majority on the Board (not even a majority - this could have been had with Solstine, Mayhart, and Urvis support alone).
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Zimmerwald you asking a great deal of Ravounel to set up a standing government in less than 2 years.
The state had been independent for two years by the initial run of setting books (independence 4017, Lost Omens Campaign Setting base year 4019). It has been four years since then, for a total of six. In all that time, Ravounel has had a government, and a functioning government. It has not, however, had a single election, either for the legislature (which is still the self-selected provisional revolutionary council) or the chief executive (who was last elected in the days of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting), or the remainder of the federal/executive council (who likewise persist from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting except for the rokoa of Tastikka), or most importantly for a constituent assembly to come up with a basic law. In fact it does not have a basic law at all, instead persisting under the "provisional" government. Drafting a basic law does not take six years. If anything, the two years that passed since 4017 is a reasonable timeframe. Pennsylvania adopted its first state (ex-colonial) constitution in September 1776, less than three months after the colonies' Declaration of Independence. France's Constitutional Committee took longer, a little over two years from 1789 to 1791, to come up with its first constitution. Russia's Congress of Soviets adopted a constitution in July 1918 - nine months after November 1917 and eighteen months after February 1917 - and that was after the election and dispersal of the constituent assembly. Chile's constituent assembly drafted the recently-rejected constitution in less than two years over 2021 - 22.
Even the constitution of the People's Republic of China, for a gigantic country of over 500 million people and over 3.7 million square miles, took five years from the implementation of the provisional constitution in 1949 to be enacted in 1954. Ravounel covers a land area of about 33 thousand square miles,[1] and has a population of about 150 thousand souls.[2] It should not be taking longer.
[1] 355 land hexes * 93.53 square miles / hex.
[2] (355 land hexes + 110 water hexes) * 250 people / hex + 33,000 people in listed settlements--the 250 people / hex figure comes from Rivers Run Red; the listed settlements are Kintargo (11,800 => 12,000), Vyre (17,300), Cypress Point (1,850), Whiterock (1,500), Acisazi (146), and Tastikka (59).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
(To give those numbers further context, Ravounel's geopolitical position was compared upthread to Portugal's, and indeed the land area is similar: 33 thousand square miles of land area for Ravounel vs. 36 thousand for Portugal. But Portugal had about 1 to 1.1 million people in about 1400 (page 12), a year I think is a reasonable comparator, to Ravounel's 150 thousand. Lisbon had about 60 thousand people in 1400, to Kingargo's 12 thousand, but Ravounel is significantly more urbanized than Portugal was. About 19 to 20 percent of Ravounel's people live in Kintargo and Vyre, while only about 4 to 5 percent of Portuguese lived in cities of 10,000 or more in 1400.)
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Zimmerwald it took the US 11 years to ratify the US Constitution and in 1789 Delaware was the first state to elect Representatives Remember the Senate was 2 Senators that were appointed by the state. So cut Ravounel a little Slack.
It did not "take 11 years to ratify the US constitution." The Articles of Confederation (for a country of 2.4 million people as opposed to 150 thousand, 430 thousand square miles as opposed to 33 thousand, and thirteen federal subjects as opposed to five) were debated over the course of nineteen months and ratified in November 1777. The debate begin immediately upon declaration of independence, not waiting for years. The 1789 constitution was then debated and drafted over the course of five months in 1787 (May - September), was ratified by sufficient states in June 1788, and superseded the Articles (which had continued in force from 1777 and throughout this whole process) in 1789. Whiggishly claiming this whole process from 1777 to 1789 was part of the drafting of the 1789 constitution is absurd and counterfactual.
Remember Ravounel is not a democratic or federal republic
It is explicitly a confederation. See Lost Omens World Guide, at *96. And the fact that it is not a democratic republic is precisely the problem that will undermine it legitimacy-wise. As you say, Andoran (and Galt, and Vidrian with which Ravounel has a putative alliance much good it does either of them) are democratic republics, so contrary to your claim, there are certainly models. And even setting aside the Lost Omens World Guide's setting-forth of its citizens' demands for a social republic, and the logical need for a democratic republic to realize this demand, Ravounel has a both a democratic party and anarchists in evidence. See Frasier, Pathfinder Adventure Path #97: In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *8 (2015).
I could see Ravounel evolving into 2 city states each with its own form of government independent from the other but working together in foreign affairs.
That is something of a failure state.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You are using the wrong dates. Golarion is around the 1700s or early-1800s. Possibly even mid-1800s given how many revolutions are taking place.
Fair enough. I've used those comparators before (and contributed to the threads you're referring to), but used an earlier one here to give a slightly less huge population mismatch. And more importantly for using Portugal as a comparator, one that predates the bulk of the colonial empire. Seeing as how Ravounel doesn't have one.
Zimmerwald you asking a great deal of Ravounel to set up a standing government in less than 2 years.The state had been independent for two years by the initial run of setting books (independence 4017, Lost Omens Campaign Setting base year 4019). It has been four years since then, for a total of six. In all that time, Ravounel has had a government, and a functioning government. It has not, however, had a single election, either for the legislature (which is still the self-selected provisional revolutionary council) or the chief executive (who was last elected in the days of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting), or the remainder of the federal/executive council (who likewise persist from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting except for the rokoa of Tastikka), or most importantly for a constituent assembly to come up with a basic law. In fact it does not have a basic law at all, instead persisting under the "provisional" government. Drafting a basic law does not take six years. If anything, the two years that passed since 4017 is a reasonable timeframe. Pennsylvania adopted its first state (ex-colonial) constitution in September 1776, less than three months after the colonies' Declaration of Independence. France's Constitutional Committee took longer, a little over two years from 1789 to 1791, to come up with its first constitution. Russia's Congress of Soviets adopted a constitution in July 1918 - nine months after November 1917 and eighteen months after February 1917 - and that was after the election and dispersal of the constituent assembly. Chile's constituent assembly drafted the recently-rejected constitution in less than two years over 2021 - 22.
Even the constitution of the People's Republic of China, for a gigantic country of over 500 million people and over 3.7 million square miles, took five years from the implementation of the provisional constitution in 1949 to be enacted in 1954. Ravounel covers a land area of about 33 thousand square miles,[1] and has a...
You make a good point, but I think this is more a meta issue since in-universe time moves as fast as real-world, but it's not realistically possible to create enough products to cover everything that would happen in that time for the whole setting. When you add that to the fact that it's am RPG and the player characters being ones to shake things up is often considered preferable, you get a lot of situations where the status quo remains in place for an oddly long amount of time in a certain area if there wasn't just a major product release about it.
(Granted in this case there sort of was, Firebrands. I'll have to check my PDF of that, don't remember if it went over the current government system of Ravounel in detail)
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Granted in this case there sort of was, Firebrands. I'll have to check my PDF of that, don't remember if it went over the current government system of Ravounel in detail)
It doesn't, really. It notes that the Silver Ravens'/Firebrands' activity in Ravounel is limited to "restoring damages from the rebellion, uplifting struggling communities, and bringing issues of unfairness, exploitation, or conspiracy to those in power, such as the Silver Council and Domina Jilia Bainilus," but does not note any agitation for democratization of Ravounel's institutions, or running candidates for [hypothetical] election. Beck et al., Pathfinder Lost Omens Firebrands, at *19 (2023). It pays rather more attention to the Silver Ravens' work with other Firebrands, and outside Ravounel, and to Ravounel's foreign relations, than to Ravounel's domestic politics or institutions. See id., at *32 - 33, 111.
If Rexus Victocora's manifesto "The Dual Tyrannies of Crown and Currency," see Firebrands, at *6 - 7, is taken as representative of Silver Raven politics, one might well say of it what Engels said of the Erfurt Program: "The political demands of the draft have one great fault. It lacks precisely what should have been said." Rexus calls his party "committed to destroying all vestiges of slavery. . . overthrowing dictators and uncaring monarchs. . . [and] defending those who are persecuted, especially the poor, ill, and all those who are tyrannized for their very personhood," and says it wants "a world where we have control over our own lives, where we are not subjected to the miseries of poverty, debt, prison, and other tools of tyrants." Firebrands, at *7. A more comprehensive list of social-republican demands (indeed, evidence of the transition of the revolutionary movement from radical to social democracy) could hardly have been asked of Paizo (who I would not expect under any circumstances to include, say, demands for the nationalizations of important lands and industries even if they occasionally portray cooperative enterprises). But it omits their logical prerequisite: the democratic republic. And the Silver Ravens, having the gratitude and the ear of the state, see Firebrands, at *19, have not the excuse of circumstances demanding caution over raising the demand for the democratic republic. Rexus might be presuming that Ravounel is a democratic republic (presumably its leaders are not "dictators" or "monarchs"), which speaks either to stunning omissions by the writers of every book to have broached the topic of Ravounel's institutions so far (the World Guide, Legends, Firebrands, Tomorrow Must Burn, &c.) or quite poor political judgment on Rexus's part. In one of two ways: if Ravounel is not a democratic republic, then the Silver Ravens are abdicating their duty as a social-democratic party by failing to advocate for the democratization of its institutions; if Ravounel is a democratic republic, the Silver Ravens are abdicating their duty as a social-democratic party by only "bringing issues. . . to those in power" rather than contesting for power themselves in elections and using that power to implement the listed social-republican demands.
As an aside, other than the limited legitimacy afforded by the recognition of another young state (which can be had from more established powers like Andoran, Osirion, and Absalom), what does Vidrian get out of its alliance with Ravounel?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think it's so much that either of them expects to get much from the other, and more that they're both opposed to Cheliax and motivated to support revolutionary movements similar to the ones which established their respective countries, so their interests are generally aligned.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As an aside, other than the limited legitimacy afforded by the recognition of another young state (which can be had from more established powers like Andoran, Osirion, and Absalom), what does Vidrian get out of its alliance with Ravounel?
Given the legacy of colonisation, putting a thumb in Cheliax's eye would be an enticing enough prospect, I imagine. But more practically, I'd guess Vidrian would prefer Cheliax to be more focussed on problems closer to home than settling old scores.
As for Ravounel's government, and noting both A.) this is a place where players are meant to determine what government it ends up with, and B.) that I haven't had the chance to read Firebrands yet, the fact that Ravounel is harkening back to Cheliax's pre-Thrune imperial past, and its flag notably includes an olive wreath, I'd guess Ravounel is probably going to end up with something like the Roman Senate and Assemblies ruling its affairs, with a mixture of democratic elections for the Assemblies and permanent Senators from the ruling families, with an elected or appointed Dominus/Domina. An elected Assembly especially sounds like something the Firebrands would champion the existence of, even if the more conservative members of Ravounel's society throw up the Senate as a bulwark against true radical reform.
Then again, if my group had ever gotten that far we were planning to overthrow the rich and establish the People's Republic of Ravounel. :P
|
|
Since the mere existence of Ravounel comes from the results of an AP, I expect it to get plot armor against the revolutionary trends of the Firebrands for quite some time.
Not to mention that RL revolutions often ended up in the long run creating systems that were more interested in protecting their new status quo than keeping on evolving.
I do think if they want to follow up on a popular PF1 AP, "let's help Ravounel solve a problem" would be a good choice.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do think if they want to follow up on a popular PF1 AP, "let's help Ravounel solve a problem" would be a good choice.
TBH thwarting Cheliax schemes is becoming a tired old trope. Maybe because I'm playing PFS.
Even Indiana Jones had to fight people that were not Nazis from time to time.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Given the legacy of colonisation, putting a thumb in Cheliax's eye would be an enticing enough prospect, I imagine. But more practically, I'd guess Vidrian would prefer Cheliax to be more focussed on problems closer to home than settling old scores.
But Vidrian doesn't need to commit to a mutual defense pact (with a power that needs Vidrian's military assistance but cannot provide Vidrian any military assistance of its own) to get that from Ravounel. It can get that from Ravounel's bare existence, and given the Cheliax Covenant it does not need to commit its military to securing Ravounel's bare existence. That's the point, it seems like Vidrian is giving up something for nothing.
As for Ravounel's government, and noting both A.) this is a place where players are meant to determine what government it ends up with, and B.) that I haven't had the chance to read Firebrands yet, the fact that Ravounel is harkening back to Cheliax's pre-Thrune imperial past, and its flag notably includes an olive wreath, I'd guess Ravounel is probably going to end up with something like the Roman Senate and Assemblies ruling its affairs, with a mixture of democratic elections for the Assemblies and permanent Senators from the ruling families, with an elected or appointed Dominus/Domina. An elected Assembly especially sounds like something the Firebrands would champion the existence of, even if the more conservative members of Ravounel's society throw up the Senate as a bulwark against true radical reform.
I'm pretty sure based on the lack of olives and the shape of the leaves that that's a laurel wreath (though the dispersion of leaves is too sparse for either olive or laurel). Ironic for a power that has never had and never will have a military victory, but then, maybe that's the point. In any event, Ravounel's flag owes most to Poland's, design-wise (bicolor, shield, bird).
As for institutions, the following are in evidence. First, the Dominate. See Lost Omens World Guide, at *104. This is clearly a chief executive of some kind, and it's occupied by "Jilia Bainilus, the former Lord-Mayor of Kintargo." Id. That "former" cannot mean she doesn't still hold the position. Not only is a replacement Lord-Mayor never mentioned, Kintargo must maintain the institutions of the Lord-Mayoralty and the Board of Governors for the Kintargo Contract to work. See The Kintargo Contract, at *7 ("only an officially appointed lord-mayor of Kintargo may grant House Thrune and its allies [] permission to enter [Ravounel] en masse. . . . if a properly ratified lord-mayor denies House Thrune permission to intercede, any direct military action against Kintargo or its associated holdings of Ravounel [] terminates the Cheliax Covenant."). This leaves basically three options: 1) the Dominate is the same institution as the Lord-Mayoralty under a different name; 2) the Lord-Mayoralty was subsumed into the Dominate, probably along with the Archduchy (the institution); or 3) the Lord-Mayoralty and the Dominate happen to be held by the same person (as a matter of coincidence or as a matter of necessity). I've been assuming option 3 (necessity variation), but a close reading of The Kintargo Contract suggests it might actually be option 1. See id., at *5 (describing the Lord-Mayor as "the official leader of the city, and technically the leader of Ravounel," despite pre-revolutionary Ravounel being an archduchy led by an archduke); see also Lost Omens World Guide, at *104 ("The Silver Ravens. . . installed Lord-Mayor Bainilus as the leader of this new nation, and worked to unite various factions within Ravounel behind her. Upon attaining office, Lord-Mayor Bainilus chose the title 'Domina,' an old-fashioned honorific that had fallen into disuse after the Chelish Civil War.[1]"). The Lord-Mayor of Kintargo, thus also the Domina, is elected by the people of Kintargo, see In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *7, 8, and ratified by a Board of Governors consisting of five hereditary members. See The Kintargo Contract, at *7.
Second, the federal Council of Peers. See Lost Omens World Guide, at *104 - 05. This is composed of "factions' representatives," id., the factions being: 1) "the wealthy families of Kintargo, who control the shipping concerns, established[2] industries, and domestic trade networks within the new country;" 2) "the aquatic elves of the Dismal Nitch;" 3) "the strix of the Ravounel Forest;" and 4) "the self-styled Kings and Queens of Vyre" who are the most independent-minded. The name of the council suggests that its members are meant to be the Domina's equals, even if she is the first among them.[3] As first among equals, Domina probably presides over meetings of the Council of Peers. The aquatic elves and strix are presumably represented by their Speaker and Rokoa respectively, chosen according to tradition. See Pett, Dance of the Damned, at *12 - 14 (2015); The Kintargo Contract, at *60 - 61, 70 - 72. "Power in Vyre goes to those who can seize and keep it," so presumably the Kings and Queens are those who have seized and hold the loyalty of their relevant Masks. Dance of the Damned, at *67. The Masks would determine their loyalties by internal deliberations and confirm them by election, but each King and Queens selects their Masks so it would take some significant upset for their loyalty to sour. See id., at *66. There is a significant overlap between the Council of Peers as described in the Lost Omens World Guide, supra, and the signatories of the Kintargo Contract: the Council of Peers includes a representative of the Silver Council, infra, who do not appear among the signatories of the Kintargo Contract, and excludes Xerelilah who does. C.f. The Kintargo Contract, at *27 - 28; see also Tomorrow Must Burn, at *19, 24 (Xerelilah appears to have been elevated to the leadership of Cypress Point). If pressed, based on their respective positions as town leaders, I would put Xerelilah on the Council of Peers as representative of the North Plains, and Canton Jhaltero (infra), as representative of the Silver Council. Based on its small size, and the inclusion of the chief executive, I'm fairly certain that the Council of Peers is an executive council jointly exercising the executive power.
Third, the revolutionary Silver Council. This group embraces "the wealthy families of Kintargo," supra, but also committed Silver Raven partisans. It was initially formed at the initiative of Mialari Docur as a kind of underground coordinating committee of the Silver Raven party and transformed itself into the putative government in the course of the uprising against Barzillai Thrune. See Dance of the Damned, at *6. "Who attends the Silver Council" initially "is left to the PCs," id., but presumably it would include the PCs and any of their Allies up to that point: Blosodriette, Laria Longroad, Rexus Victocora, Cassius Sargaeta, Octavio Sabinus, Hetamon Haace, and/or Mialari Docur herself. See In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *51; Shel, Pathfinder Adventure Path #98: Turn of the Torrent, at *61 (2015); Dance of the Damned, at *57. Over the course of Dance of the Damned the list of Allies can expand to include Jilia Bainilus, Manticce Kaleekii, and Tayacet Tiora. See Dance of the Damned, at *57. And it can expand further during the uprising A Song of Silver to include Chuko, Molly Mayapple, Shensen, Jackdaw, and Strea Vestori. See Jacobs, A Song of Silver, at *6 - 7, 63 (2015). Given these families' dominance of the Silver Council as of the advent of the Lost Omens Campaign Setting, it also likely includes Eldonna Aulamaxa, Marquel Aulorian, Belcara Jarvis, Canton Jhaltero, and/or Sendi Vashnarstill. See Dance of the Damned, at *8 - 9; see also Tomorrow Must Burn, at *59 (the Silver Council is "a loose association of Ravounel's noble houses and the wealthiest power brokers in Kintargo"), 62 (Canton Jhaltero is a noted member of the Silver council); but see Tomorrow Must Burn, at *29, 88, and passim (no Aulamaxa, Aulorian, Jarvis, or Vashnarstill is noted to be a member of the Silver Council, "the Vashnarstills" failed to secure a monopoly in negotiations with the Silver Council, Mialari Docur is noted to have left the Silver Council). Dance of the Damned and A Song of Silver illustrate that membership in the Silver Council is self-selected (that is, selected by the PCs), and indeed "[m]any people serving upon [the Silver Council] consider their position to be a reward for backing the correct side." Tomorrow Must Burn, at *59. Tomorrow Must Burn excludes the Kings and Queens of Vyre from the Silver Council; describes Rarrnir, the new Rokoa of Tastikka, meeting with the Silver Council; and describes the elves of Acisazi as seeing themselves apart from Ravounel entirely. See id., at *60, 61. This is probably a description of the Council of Peers by another name. That book is insistent that the Silver Council is a Kintargo municipal institution, see, id., at *5, 25, 29, 57 (characterizing the Silver Council as "lead[ing] Kintargo," being "that city's rul[ers]," "the city's new leadership," and "the leaders of Kintargo"), but the Dominate illustrates that Kintargo municipal and Ravounel state institutions are highly conflated. Based on having directed the uprising against Barzillai Thrune, and thus needing to be in a position to issue proclamations prior to the reinstatement of Jilia Bainilus as Lord-Mayor, I imagine the Silver Council has appropriated to itself the legislative power or at least legislative initiative, including the power of the purse. C.f. Turn of the Torrent, at *6; Dance of the Damned, at *5 (Kintargo's Lord-Mayor possessed the power to levy taxes); Tomorrow Must Burn, at *25 (the Silver Council receives diplomats and conducts treaty negotiations), 29 (the Silver Council charters corporations and grants monopolies), 57 (the Silver Council can disburse funds from the state treasury), 63 (the Silver Council can expropriate property [here from the Church of Asmodeus] and dispose of state property). Its laws may need confirmation, by the popularly-elected Domina, or (following the Roman example you used) by an assembly of the citizens of Kintargo directly.
As an aside, it is not clear who appoints government/cabinet ministers (that is, the people responsible for spending the budgets and overseeing the employees of government departments), or to whom they report. The representative of the Silver Council on the Council of Peers may be accounted the prime minister, in which case he is responsible to the Silver Council that appoints him. The process of choosing other ministers may be consultative between him and the Domina, or may be a matter of appointment by the Council of Peers collectively (probably the latter). There may be a requirement to select or tradition of selecting government ministers from among the Silver Council.
Fourth, the Board of Governors. Having lapsed for the decades between the Civil War and Ravounel's independence, this body appears to have no function outside ratifying the election of Kintargo's Lord-Mayor (thus also the Domina). See, The Kintargo Contract, at *5. It consists of Melodia Delronge, Geoff Tanessen, Raenna Solstine, Carliss Mayhart, and Laria Longroad. See, id., at *19 - 23. It would make a great deal of sense for this body to continue to be sidelined, nearly half composed as it is of outright counterrevolutionaries. See id. Geoff's membership on it does not seem to have protected the Tanessens in their wealth or influence--he may have been reduced in rank from Count to Baron or Archbaron. See Tomorrow Must Burn, at *40. Worth noting is that the only requirement for membership is apparently to be a member of the relevant family--not necessarily its head, though the current members are all family matriarchs and patriarchs. See, The Kintargo Contract, at *5. These Governors were chosen by the Silver Council (read: the Hell's Rebels PCs), and having appropriated that power to itself the Silver Council can presumably replace the Governors from time to time as long as the replacement comes from the same family.
Fifth, the courts. Kintargo's municipal courts and Ravounel's high court sit in the House of Truth and Clarity in Kintargo. See, In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *66; Tomorrow Must Burn, at *63. Nowhere is it stated whether these courts are jury or bench or mixed tribunals, or how judges if there are any are chosen. We may imagine elected judges, or judges appointed by the Domina, or juries selected by lot, or a combination of either appointed or elected judges with juries. A pure jury system is unlikely to my mind. Cheliax makes use of judges, see Moreland, et al., Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Cheliax, the Infernal Empire, at *27 - 28 (2015), and Ravounel would have inherited its legal code. I could see Kintargo's judges being elected, given the citizens' enthusiasm for election. See In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *7, 8. This would actually be in line with your Roman example, with the citizens of Rome (Kintargo) electing as magistrates a consular executive (the Domina) and judicial praetors (judges), and also sitting as jurors from time to time. That we haven't been told of elections taking place is less of a barrier here than elsewhere: we're told precisely nothing about how judges are chosen, practically anywhere. The unelected Silver Council in this scheme is analogous to the unelected Senate, except being composed of ex-revolutionaries rather than ex-magistrates (notably the Senate possessed legislative initiative).
Sixth, the nobility. These appear to be formally charged with most local government (executive administration, legislative rulemaking, and judicial adjudication--all either directly or through appointees), but their exercise of their rights and duties is highly variable and has in several cases been appropriated by the people. Canton Jhaltero, for instance, is hands-on in Whiterock, but Aldonna Aulamaxa is laissez-faire with respect to Cypress Point and appears to have been largely superseded in her role by Xerelilah, who has leadership of the town by acclamation. See Tomorrow Must Burn, at *19, 24, 47; see also Dance of the Damned, at *back inside cover (but note that Canton Jhaltero is described as more hands-off here than he is portrayed in Tomorrow Must Burn). In her role, Xerelilah has overseen, among other things, the municipalization of important enterprises. See Tomorrow Must Burn, at *20; see also In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *29; Turn of the Torrent, at *6 (Kintargo's Lord-Mayor has the power to expropriate and distribute property). None of the loyal nobles other than Marquel Aulorian (who was not the head of his house at the time of Ravounel's independence) is ranked higher than Archbaron. See Dance of the Damned, at *8 - 9. The disloyal Counts and Countesses may have been reduced in rank as punishment, or in the case of the Sarinis, dispossessed entirely.
One would indeed think "an elected assembly. . . sounds like something the Firebrands would champion the existence of," but they don't. But going back to the Roman example, its assemblies weren't elected, but composed directly of all citizens who happened to show up (albeit these were segregated into voting blocs and blocs' votes were weighted by class). If the Kintargo assembly speculated about supra does in fact constitute the electorate for the Domina and justices, and does ratify laws, and if Kintargan citizenship has been extended to all of Ravounel's people, and if citizens' votes are not weighted by class, such an assembly would fill the democratic niche in Ravounel's constitution. Being directly composed of citizens it would obviate the need for an elected legislative chamber (and also explain why Silver Ravens don't run in legislative elections - the directly-democratic assembly obviates the need for them). Likewise, if a citizens' assembly is the electorate for justices, along with the Domina, and votes are not weighted by class, the courts and the Dominate become popular institutions. Such an assembly is feasible given Ravounel's small size (no point in Ravounel is more than about 200 miles from Kintargo), low population (circa 150 thousand, supra), and high rate of urbanization (circa 20 percent, supra). Even the population that lives outside Kintargo is mostly clustered around Yolubilis Harbor and the river below Whiterock. The populations that aren't include the aquatic elves and strix who live away west, but they are protected by the Council of Peers, and being able to swim and fly can travel to Kintargo more easily than most if they want to vote in the assembly (the aquatic elves at least probably do not, judging by the description supra). The truly excluded populations would be the giants and orcs of the Menador Mountains, the goblins of Cape Dis, and the small farmers of the upper Yolubilis and the North Plains, who all have much more of a problem travelling. The trouble is, outside of brief references to elections of the Lord-Mayor in In Hell's Bright Shadow, the existence of this assembly is almost wholly speculative; the stipulations that require it to be a democratic force (universal citizenship, equal suffrage) are entirely so. They can only be inferred by presuming that the Silver Ravens/Firebrands are pro-democracy, and from their failure despite this to advocate for more democracy in Ravounel's constitution.
The constitution I have outlined above is susceptible to being written down. Maybe I'll do that one of these days.
[1] It was also the name of one of Korvosa's most effective and centralizing monarchs.
[2] "Established" here means "state-chartered," that is to say, a corporation, e.g., Sunset Imports. Not necessarily a joint-stock company.
[3] Making the Dominate an utter misnomer - it should be a Principate. Maybe this was also ironic?
Then again, if my group had ever gotten that far we were planning to overthrow the rich and establish the People's Republic of Ravounel. :P
Good on your players. But "People's Republic" is a class-collaborationist nationalist slogan - hence I've gone with "social republic" as a description of a state with more or less socialist commitments (i.e., to socializing (collectivizing, municipalizing, or nationalizing) property, all of which Ravounel does in canon; and to redistributing wealth). Based on the name of the chief executive, in canon the state is almost certainly styled the "Dominion of Ravounel."
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Since the mere existence of Ravounel comes from the results of an AP, I expect it to get plot armor against the revolutionary trends of the Firebrands for quite some time.
The trouble with that is that the state was created in a revolution that the [proto-]Firebrands made. You'd need to assume some manner of revolutionary betrayal, counter-revolution, or both.
I do think if they want to follow up on a popular PF1 AP, "let's help Ravounel solve a problem" would be a good choice.
They did that in Age of Ashes.
Even Indiana Jones had to fight people that were not Nazis from time to time.
Yeah, in the two worst movies :P
(I can't speak to quality of the TV shows, or the prevalence of Nazis therein.)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Given how long cheliax and ravounel were one country how so you think they dealt with mutual overlordship? Did they make new cadet houses and give them the lands or do you think they just seized them?
I'm not sure what you mean by "mutual overlordship." Do you mean the problem of some Chelish subjects owning land in Ravounel, and some Ravounel citizens owning land in Cheliax? If so, this isn't actually a problem as long as they all pay their taxes to the state that controls the territory (the frontier is well-defined in the Kintargo Contract).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My concern is that a noble in cheliax with holdings in ravounel could raise an army from their chelaxian lands and use the fact that they are also a ravounel Noble to use that army to fight ravounel because technically they are not invading but simply rebelling against their overlord. Or does the Kintargo contract have clauses that prevent that?Given how long cheliax and ravounel were one country how so you think they dealt with mutual overlordship? Did they make new cadet houses and give them the lands or do you think they just seized them?I'm not sure what you mean by "mutual overlordship." Do you mean the problem of some Chelish subjects owning land in Ravounel, and some Ravounel citizens owning land in Cheliax? If so, this isn't actually a problem as long as they all pay their taxes to the state that controls the territory (the frontier is well-defined in the Kintargo Contract).
It doesn't, as long as the hypothetical noble isn't an agent of Thrune or the Church of Asmodeus. Y'know what does prevent it? Eighty years of anti-noble Thrune policies that mean that armies in this era have been transformed into state levies (Ravounel will call theirs a citizen militia, no doubt - and this may even be more than an affectation!) and are no longer nested retinues, these having largely atrophied away.
Do you think people in cheliax use ravounel as a tax haven cause there is no way ravounel taxes are as high as the ones in cheliax right?
I assume people from all over hide various malfeasances in Vyre. But Cheliax is thoroughly corrupt anyway, so I imagine that most of the tax burden is already levied on the middle class (and the underclasses, but you can't get as much from them.)
Remember Cheliax has a bad government that exists to enforce hierarchy and keep people oppressed. They ask very little from people already on top, who are the people who would have the ability to like "use tax shelters."
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Possible Cabbage, Feudal Systems do not have tax breaks the Tax collector
directly takes the levied tax from the lower classes in either gods or coin. Nobles paid in either suctage [levied troops] or coin from their purse or both. There are no tax shelters in Cheliax you pay the tax your social betters tell you to pay or bad things happen to you. I would imagine taht tax collection is very easy at the beginning of the you the tax rates are posted so the masses can see what they owe the government at tax time. Rates are not changed on the masses but the Nobles can have higher rates in goods from their holdings or increases in levied troops if the nation is at war. Its very hard to change ones station in Cheliax unless one gets an appointment from the state to a higher noble station.
Again I would think that the tax rate would be at a level that would prevent social climbing by the non-nobles.
AFAIK there are very few medieval feudal systems like the one you describe on Golarion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The economies of Avistan are more predicated on mercantilism than they are on feudalism. You would probably expect feudalism to persist in the "Russia-coded" places like Iobaria and Irrisen though.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Raven Black and Possible Cabbage, you two are confusing taxation vs. the Larger economy. Most of the Inner Sea economies rely on Mercantilism
but still collect taxes as I described above except for Andoran which has tax collectors like the IRS. I would think that most inner Sea governments are similar to pre-civil war England with the exception of Andoran and Katapesh
Marcantilism and tax farming don't go together. To do mercantilism you need a relatively strong state and if you have that administrative apparatus you're going to use it to collect tax.
One thing I want to know about is why is Isger not part of Cheliax but instead just a vassal state. Considering the length of time that passed since it was brought into the Chelish empire, shouldn't it be part of Cheliax. So the question of why isn't it part of it would be nice to know.