Kineticist playtest hype!!!

[YuriP]

https://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest
Here we are!

[Karmagator]

24 pages... boy howdy

[keftiu]

The four elements… fire, bludgeoning, bludgeoning, and slashing. Super bummed to not see any cold damage options in here, and nothing for acid or sonic either.

[Kekkres]

Dear GOD is that a long feat list!

[Cthulhusquatch]

Big class, even during the play test. No wonder there is only one class.

[Cthulhusquatch]

keftiu wrote:

The four elements… fire, bludgeoning, bludgeoning, and slashing. Super bummed to not see any cold damage options in here, and nothing for acid or sonic either.

I see cold in the water feat section. Just not the base blast.

[Antony Walls]

Its here:

https://downloads.paizo.com/PZO2113_KineticistClassPlaytest.pdf

https://downloads.paizo.com/PZO2113_KineticistClassPlaytest.pdf

[keftiu]

Cthulhusquatch wrote:

keftiu wrote:

The four elements… fire, bludgeoning, bludgeoning, and slashing. Super bummed to not see any cold damage options in here, and nothing for acid or sonic either.

I see cold in the water feat section. Just not the base blast.

The blast is what I meant. Isn’t the entire fantasy of a Kineticist slinging an element around as your weapon? If the class doesn’t let me pelt people with snowballs and thunder, then I don’t really understand what it’s supposed to do.

[Verzen]

This is hilarious.

Their impulse feats are exactly how I remade casters in a tabletop game I was writing up in order to create an alternative casting method.

This is amazing.

[Ly'ualdre]

keftiu wrote:

Cthulhusquatch wrote:

keftiu wrote:

The four elements… fire, bludgeoning, bludgeoning, and slashing. Super bummed to not see any cold damage options in here, and nothing for acid or sonic either.

I see cold in the water feat section. Just not the base blast.

The blast is what I meant. Isn’t the entire fantasy of a Kineticist slinging an element around as your weapon? If the class doesn’t let me pelt people with snowballs and thunder, then I don’t really understand what it’s supposed to do.

Those are technically secondary elements and they did want to focus on the primary ones. So I'm not surprised. And I'm sure they'll come with the full release.

-----
God. The desire to read through this and my desire to nap are at war atm.

[Kekkres]

so wait, gather power doesnt seem to have a duration, when your in a dungeon can you just do that out of combat and hold it, like exploring with your weapon drawn?

[Verzen]

** Even to the point where I gave players multiple feats for starting out if they focus on 1 class (3) or multiclassed characters (2)

I literally predicted their design choices for kineticist like 3 months ago..

[GreatGraySkwid]

RoE Kineticist Playtest Forum when?

/taps foot impatiently
//looks at wrist, realizes doesn't wear a watch
///hits refresh, again...

[Perpdepog]

Kekkres wrote:

so wait, gather power doesnt seem to have a duration, when your in a dungeon can you just do that out of combat and hold it, like exploring with your weapon drawn?

Looks like it, yeah. Just don't go walking around holding floating rocks when in a town and you should be good.

[Karmagator]

Perpdepog wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

so wait, gather power doesnt seem to have a duration, when your in a dungeon can you just do that out of combat and hold it, like exploring with your weapon drawn?

Looks like it, yeah. Just don't go walking around holding floating rocks when in a town and you should be good.

But I really like those rocks and I want people to appreciate them.

[Brew Bird]

Am I reading this right? Impulse trait says it gives an action the manipulate and concentrate traits, unless something says otherwise.

Elemental blast does not appear to say otherwise, so do melee blasts have manipulate, thus provoking attacks of opportunity?

[Guntermench]

I don't see anywhere that actually says you attack with CON, so is this using STR or DEX to attack with delayed proficiency progression and being unable to start with an 18?

[Kekkres]

Guntermench wrote:

I don't see anywhere that actually says you attack with CON, so is this using STR or DEX to attack with delayed proficiency progression and being unable to start with an 18?

yeah the double wammy of delayed progressin and lack of a prime attacking stat is a bit... odd,

[AnimatedPaper]

Correct, yes.

It uses your unarmed proficiency and handwraps.

You are able to at least pick up a feat to make the ranged brutal and the melee finesse, so at least you don’t need both stats.

[Guntermench]

The delay from 5 to 7 is odd still. It's not like they're a spellcaster and thus get 3rd level spells, like a Warpriest.
If you go STR you still kinda need DEX because AC.

[Karmagator]

Yep... that's 87 feats alright

[keftiu]

Reminding everyone in advance to please be courteous in the playtest forum. There’s a fair bit here that I find frustrating, and I know there will be others with bigger objections… but remember, we’re talking to each other and the people who make the game we love.

[Verzen]

Very cool class, but there are some issues I see -

No kinetic defense like ability. I LOVED kinetic defense. This needs to be put back in imo.

There should be a way to combine elements together for your regular blasts

Like if I want fire and earth, I want a lava blast that takes traits from both of them and i don't want to be able to channel either fire or earth any longer. Like - I lose that ability to channel pure fire or pure earth. It has to be both.

So a 1st level class feat idea is to 'combine' your elements into one where every move you make is a combination of both your elements. If it dealt electricity damage? It now deals fire AND electricity damage, for example.

There are a lack of regular elemental energy attacks which surprises me. Why can't I just throw around electricity or cold? Why does only fire get that option?

Most everything else looks great to me and I can't wait to try it out!

[NameClassified]

CON key ability score with no core features that actually use CON is a bit weird - like maybe grant the ability to use Overflow actions without Gathering for 1 point of drained?

[Guntermench]

NameClassified wrote:

CON key ability score with no core features that actually use CON is a bit weird - like maybe grant the ability to use Overflow actions without Gathering for 1 point of drained?

Anything that uses the Class DC uses it. So Extract Element, Pure Adaptation, and any feats.

[willfromamerica]

Feats and flavor are incredible. Would definitely prefer getting to choose STR or DEX as key ability score, that’s huge for me. Delayed weapon proficiency progression is confusing given that the kineticist is pretty much designed with the same brush as a martial.

[AnimatedPaper]

Verzen wrote:

So a 1st level class feat idea is to 'combine' your elements into one where every move you make is a combination of both your elements. If it dealt electricity damage? It now deals fire AND electricity damage, for example.

Fusion blast, level 10. Seems to be the class’s version of dual wielding.

[Saedar]

Only things bugging me right now are:

1.) Not being able to pick your attack stat as your class stat/Con not appearing to interact with attacking.

2.) Just... Stop with the physical damage thing. It is fine. I get it. But like... Meh.

Don't want to go too hard in the hype thread. I like the positivity we had. :*(

[Dubious Scholar]

I love the names on the level 18 impulses. I'm not sold on all of them being desirable to actually use offhand. But the names are a win.

[Tangorin]

the servers got too much burn it seems

[Ly'ualdre]

Verzen wrote:

Very cool class, but there are some issues I see -

No kinetic defense like ability. I LOVED kinetic defense. This needs to be put back in imo.

There should be a way to combine elements together for your regular blasts

Like if I want fire and earth, I want a lava blast that takes traits from both of them and i don't want to be able to channel either fire or earth any longer. Like - I lose that ability to channel pure fire or pure earth. It has to be both.

So a 1st level class feat idea is to 'combine' your elements into one where every move you make is a combination of both your elements. If it dealt electricity damage? It now deals fire AND electricity damage, for example.

There are a lack of regular elemental energy attacks which surprises me. Why can't I just throw around electricity or cold? Why does only fire get that option?

Most everything else looks great to me and I can't wait to try it out!

There is a sidebar on page 5 that refers to additional Element options and specifically calls out Hybrid Impulses, to combine multiple elements; which it states will be added with the full release. They seemed pretty adamant on the base four Elements being the only options here, and the likes of electricity and cold (ice) are considered secondary elements in the system.

So I wouldn't really say it is an issue. They'll come in the future.

That being said, I am seeing a handful of Feats that deal Cold and Elecrtic damage. So this really seems like a non-issue.

We need to remember it is a playtest. It isn't going to have everything available. Otherwise we are going to end up disappointing ourselves.

[GreatGraySkwid]

keftiu wrote:

Reminding everyone in advance to please be courteous in the playtest forum.

It doesn't exist yet, so you can't make me! :-p

ETA:OK, there it is, now, fine...

[manbearscientist]

Some basic notes:

Con / 8 HP
Nature + 3 Skills
T/E/E/T in Perc/Fort/Ref/Will
Elemental blasts scale off unarmed attack, benefit from handwraps
Blasts deal between 1d4 agile and 1d8 damage, and don't benefit from constitution at all (standard str/dex to hit, str to damage if melee or propulsive)
Choose between more elements and more feats at level 1 (1/3, 2/2, or all/1)
Basic actions from leveling up: Gather Element, Adapt Element, Extract Element (for getting around elementals otherwise immune to you), and 7th and 11th level bonuses to Adapt Element
Gather element isn't a buff or burn reducer, it gives you a clump of elements that you can use for impulses (non-spell magic)
No damage/burn in basic class layout
Fighter-type flexibility feat, letting you pick an 8th or lower feat at 9 and two 14 or lower at 15
No focus point interactions
Not a lot of Constitution interaction

1
Elemental Weapon allow you to make a semipermanent simple or martial 1H weapon
Flexible Blasts lets you add use dexterity for melee elemental blasts or use strength for ranged, reducing MADness.

2
Kinetic Activation lets you activate items
Voice of Elements - So long as you've gathered an element, you can speak the associated language and make requests of mindless elements of that element

4
Blast Barrage >> Impulse to fire 3 Elemental Blasts at different targets; your MAP increases normally. Note that gathering takes 1 action and needs to be done first.
Command Elemental >> - Overflow (lose element) to control or more likely slow an elemental, but ends if you attack said elemental. Mostly worthless against almost anything you can face: does nothing on success, and against a minion level mob (your level - 2) it still only slows if no allies attack the elemental.

6
Cycling Blast > - You Elemental Blast then Gather Element to switch elements. Only available for those with extra elements.
Stoke Element > - Dedicated element only, adds status bonus to damaging impulses (including elemental blast). 2/3/4/5, doubled on overflow.

8
Aura Shaping - Can change shape of auras, and target creatures to make immune.

10
Chain Blasts >> - You can keep hitting enemies within 1 ranged increment of each other, up to 5, with no increase to MAP in the middle. Extremely potent.
Deconstruct Element R - Counterspell
Fusion Blast >> - Add another element's weapon dice to your elemental blast. No other bonuses doubled.

Each element gets a lot of specific feats. Some highlights:

Air - Invisibility, wall of wind, 8th level fly
Earth - Shield, Healing, can get benefit of Apex item to STR at 14 without counting as Apex item (highly doubt this goes to live)
Fire - Level 1 AOE, can create a miniature sun that lightly tickles enemies at 18, easily spreads persistent 3d6 fire that enfeebles
Water - Healing, Wall of Ice, can create damageless pure water field at 18 or make a small amount of difficult terrain in water at 18

To me, there seem to be some pretty big imbalances in later feats and some damage wonkiness. There are a few efficient actions in there, but the baseline damage and accuracy seems to be really low, at a maximum STR/DEX of 16 to start and only 1H weapon scaling.

[Perpdepog]

I'm missing kinetic defense too. I was certain we'd see a feat that let you craft medium and eventually heavy armor out of an element after the 1st-level feat that let you make weapons, but so far that seems to be no dice. Hopefully that's in the finished product.

[Ly'ualdre]

Perpdepog wrote:

I'm missing kinetic defense too. I was certain we'd see a feat that let you craft medium and eventually heavy armor out of an element after the 1st-level feat that let you make weapons, but so far that seems to be no dice. Hopefully that's in the finished product.

I'm almost wondering if they are trying to gauge general survivability without defensive bonuses.

[Squiggit]

willfromamerica wrote:

Delayed weapon proficiency progression is confusing given that the kineticist is pretty much designed with the same brush as a martial.

It's doubly confusing because they otherwise still use standard martial proficiency.

It's only at specifically levels 5 and 6 that the kineticist is behind. It gets master at 13 just like Barbarians.

So like, what's so special about levels 5 and 6?

[Guntermench]

Water doesn't have an area for the splash that I can see.

[Verzen]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Verzen wrote:

So a 1st level class feat idea is to 'combine' your elements into one where every move you make is a combination of both your elements. If it dealt electricity damage? It now deals fire AND electricity damage, for example.

Fusion blast, level 10. Seems to be the class’s version of dual wielding.

EH not exactly what I want though. Doesn't fulfill the fantasy at all, really.

[manbearscientist]

Squiggit wrote:

willfromamerica wrote:

Delayed weapon proficiency progression is confusing given that the kineticist is pretty much designed with the same brush as a martial.

It's doubly confusing because they otherwise still use standard martial proficiency.

It's only at specifically levels 5 and 6 that the kineticist is behind. It gets master at 13 just like Barbarians.

So like, what's so special about levels 5 and 6?

At level 5, martials will go from 18 to 19 in their primary attack stat but will go +2 off promoting to expert. Kineticist will go from 16 to 18 in their primary attack stat. It seems like they want kineticists to be at -1 to attacks from 1-4, and don't want them to go +0 from 5-10.

Not sure the payoff is worth it, at least for elemental blasts. It seems to be the cost for having access to Aerial Boomerang, Flame Eruption, and Tidal Hands, giving semi-reliable AOE damage at also -1 DC.

[LordeAlvenaharr]

Well, I agree it's kind of weird that Constitution isn't widely used in the class, just class DC from what I could see, not counting the "basic" uses. But I liked the level 3 Extract Element skill, if I understand correctly you steal the element of an elemental target, and it deals damage, but the interesting thing is that you can now use the target's element to overcome your immunity? Like I caught fire from a red dragon, and now he is no longer immune to my fire attacks, and still loses 1 in AC? That's it? So he and a Thaumaturge in the party are the terror of elemental creatures lol!

[manbearscientist]

LordeAlvenaharr wrote:

Well, I agree it's kind of weird that Constitution isn't widely used in the class, just class DC from what I could see, not counting the "basic" uses. But I liked the level 3 Extract Element skill, if I understand correctly you steal the element of an elemental target, and it deals damage, but the interesting thing is that you can now use the target's element to overcome your immunity? Like I caught fire from a red dragon, and now he is no longer immune to my fire attacks, and still loses 1 in AC? That's it? So he and a Thaumaturge in the party are the terror of elemental creatures lol!

That's basically true, but keep in mind that there are no bludgeoning or slashing elementals. This isn't quite as impressive for air, earth, or water.

[Karmagator]

Ok, I'm now through everything but the air and fire impulses and this stuff is dope. A bit of weirdness, especially with that first weapon proficiency increase at level 7, but overall I'd say this is really really cool. I'm not in the headspace to really comprehend whether it totally checks out mechanically, but it certainly has passed on the vibes so far :D

[RexAliquid]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Verzen wrote:

So a 1st level class feat idea is to 'combine' your elements into one where every move you make is a combination of both your elements. If it dealt electricity damage? It now deals fire AND electricity damage, for example.

Fusion blast, level 10. Seems to be the class’s version of dual wielding.

They did note that hybrid blasts are a possibility for final release.

sidebar wrote:

likely some hybrid impulses using multiple elements

[Saedar]

Karmagator wrote:

Ok, I'm now through everything but the air and fire impulses and this stuff is dope. A bit of weirdness, especially with that first weapon proficiency increase at level 7, but overall I'd say this is really really cool. I'm not in the headspace to really comprehend whether it totally checks out mechanically, but it certainly has passed on the vibes so far :D

Same. Mechanical tuning aside, this feels fun at a glance.

[Guntermench]

Ha, Soothing Breeze doesn't heal Undead.

[Perpdepog]

manbearscientist wrote:

LordeAlvenaharr wrote:

Well, I agree it's kind of weird that Constitution isn't widely used in the class, just class DC from what I could see, not counting the "basic" uses. But I liked the level 3 Extract Element skill, if I understand correctly you steal the element of an elemental target, and it deals damage, but the interesting thing is that you can now use the target's element to overcome your immunity? Like I caught fire from a red dragon, and now he is no longer immune to my fire attacks, and still loses 1 in AC? That's it? So he and a Thaumaturge in the party are the terror of elemental creatures lol!

That's basically true, but keep in mind that there are no bludgeoning or slashing elementals. This isn't quite as impressive for air, earth, or water.

Similarly, this ability doesn't work on something that isn't an elemental. Devils are one of the biggest, if not the biggest, monster families in the game, and are baseline immune to fire, but a pyrokineticist can't do anything about that.

That and my prior grumble aside, yeah this class looks most excellent. The vibes are strong and they are good. I love the 12th-14th level feats that let you remake yourself into some elemental form or other.

The wild thing is that even at 24 pages I'm sure there are more feats that we aren't seeing. Some manner of summoning or battleform feat, for example, and some other general-use abilities I haven't thought of yet. I'm glad they're only releasing this class in RoE; it's going to be a bear.

[aobst128]

I like it. Expert at 7th and master at 13th is definitely weird though. They pretty much made a spell list and made them feats instead.

[aobst128]

Elemental weapon is cool. It should probably mention how runes work with it. Presumably, it uses the runes on your handwraps. Earth kineticist with a gun is definitely that gun from control.

[Saedar]

aobst128 wrote:

Elemental weapon is cool. It should probably mention how runes work with it. Presumably, it uses the runes on your handwraps. Earth kineticist with a gun is definitely that gun from control.

This is almost exactly what I immediately wanted to build. MAGIC BULLETS!

[Perpdepog]

aobst128 wrote:

Elemental weapon is cool. It should probably mention how runes work with it. Presumably, it uses the runes on your handwraps. Earth kineticist with a gun is definitely that gun from control.

Why not make yourself a water kineticist? You can call yourself the Super Soaker.