Interesting points, I thought of the Orc to have 12 racial HPs, I would focus on Strength and Charisma, and Athletics, but I agree that a weapon with a higher chance of damage is always welcome, I'm not scared with the "low resistance" of Thaum but I would like to soften it. Now a question, would it be interesting via feat to get the Shield cantrip? I want to get the weapon implement at the beginning and maybe amulet later. Anyway, I'm just speculating...
Strength and Charisma, and Athletics, but I agree that a weapon with a higher chance of damage is always welcome, I'm not scared with the "low resistance" of Thaum but I would like to soften it.
Currently while we don't know feat I prefer to do a thauma with low Cha. Probably 12 dex, 16 str, 16con and 14 cha for melee than focus in charisma. For ranged ones I switch con and dex.
Now a question, would it be interesting via feat to get the Shield cantrip? I want to get the weapon implement at the beginning and maybe amulet later. Anyway, I'm just speculating...
In general if you aren't building a caster focused is better take a buckler. It's doesn't prevent you to use a implement because don't occupy a hand.
Checking the Dedication, it isn't good as I expected but yet still interesting.
Glimpse Vulnerability +2 to damage is far from fantastic but always useful. It's mechanics remember a ranger's hunt prey.
What's shine IMO is Implement Initiate, specially for rogues have it with Mirror Reflection is guaranteed sneak attacks that only use 1-action, no checks, no MAP but risks to take an AoO.
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Something that people haven’t considered for early level builds before you can get a returning rune is going for a combat Grapnel or an Aklys, which have the feathered quality so you can yank them back after throwing.
You could also just start with a whip/bladed whip/asp coil and move up to a thrown weapon later. The yanking back takes extra actions.
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Checking the Dedication, it isn't good as I expected but yet still interesting.
Glimpse Vulnerability +2 to damage is far from fantastic but always useful. It's mechanics remember a ranger's hunt prey.
What's shine IMO is Implement Initiate, specially for rogues have it with Mirror Reflection is guaranteed sneak attacks that only use 1-action, no checks, no MAP but risks to take an AoO.
Imo, it's a bit nicer for ranged characters than dedication sneak attack; though it probably favors flurry of strikes characters vs nova characters. Monks probs really like it given that unarmed attacks aren't as picky about free hands and have access to a nice array of both melee and ranged attacks they can flurry with.
I do like how many initiate implements are good for other characters though; all three of the passive ones are good over a wide range of characters, amulet provides a good reaction independant of saves, mirror has all sorts of positioning shenanigans, and chalice is a psuedo focus heal with it's own, automatically refilling resource pool.
I think trying to get proficiency on the repeating hand crossbow is the move. Thaumaturge has tons of things it wants to do in its turn and it is very squishy, a repeating hand crossbow goes around both. It is also extremely cool.
I'm thinking of going for a 10/16/14/10/12/16 stat distribution. Even when going ranged the damage seems to be pretty high.
So far i like amulet, book and mirror the most. Weapon is very good, but seems a bit boring in comparison.
Checking the Dedication, it isn't good as I expected but yet still interesting.
To me it is a bit of a letdown that you can't get esoteric lore with other classes. Even with trained/expert proficiency it would be amazing for Enigma Bards.
Could a familiar keep reloading for me and I just swap weapons with him?
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Could a familiar keep reloading for me and I just swap weapons with him?
This got errata'd away some time ago.
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Having played the Thaum playtest from 1-20, the front-line Thaum is no joke and certainly where my eye would be drawn depending on what the feats end up looking like.
An implement array of Weapon/Chalice/Amulet let me be the parties front-liner, if a little sluggish on the movement at times.
Initially I was drawn to lantern due to the flavour, but as levels progressed its value dropped off pretty hard. It doesn't look to have gained much from the PT that would let it keep its value.
Tome looks super interesting and powerful and I could see replacing Chalice with it when I eventually get around to playing one for real. This will also replace the PT build of taking Pathfinder Agent dedication for Thorough Reports and then the Scrollmaster Dedication, as it looks like its now a straight Lore check and not actually Recall Knowledge.
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One small detail I love is that the Chalice works with negative healing, because that implement is perfect flavor for a dhampir/vampire character.
Also, assuming you can get an implement and its initiate feature by level 4 or 6 on a multiclassed character, what implements are the best for other classes? Mirror seems phenomenal on a Rogue, allowing you to set up sneak attack by yourself easily. Chalice and Amulet seem good for any front liners with a free hand, notably fighters who don't mind giving up a shield. Tome is a straight upgrade for any Raise a Tome Magus.
What or which feat must a Thaum have to be able to use a Repeating Hand Crossbow? I'm starting to consider a ranged combatant, and in that case, weapon implement could be used in AoO? If not, would Amulet be the most viable choice?
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What or which feat must a Thaum have to be able to use a Repeating Hand Crossbow? I'm starting to consider a ranged combatant, and in that case, weapon implement could be used in AoO? If not, would Amulet be the most viable choice?
Drow shootist Dedication followed by the level 6 repeating crossbow access feat or the human feat that lets you poach a cultural weapon
Unlike the air repeater, the repeating hand xbow actually seems solid thanks to the range, though I still don't know that I'd call it an auto pick over the slide pistol and using the immaculate holster to get the same benefit of reloading the whole thing at once that magazine has.
I know people really like getting two srrikes, though personally I prefer the thaums one strike into a fling magic
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What or which feat must a Thaum have to be able to use a Repeating Hand Crossbow? I'm starting to consider a ranged combatant, and in that case, weapon implement could be used in AoO? If not, would Amulet be the most viable choice?Drow shootist Dedication followed by the level 6 repeating crossbow access feat or the human feat that lets you poach a cultural weapon
Unlike the air repeater, the repeating hand xbow actually seems solid thanks to the range, though I still don't know that I'd call it an auto pick over the slide pistol and using the immaculate holster to get the same benefit of reloading the whole thing at once that magazine has.
I know people really like getting two srrikes, though personally I prefer the thaums one strike into a fling magic
Even in that setup:
Rd 1 Wand -> shootRd 2 Wand -> reload
Is going to be worse on damage than using a repeating weapon and shooting every round.
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Honestly, I ended up using a single-strike more often than 2 once I got to higher levels. Even with just the PT Thaum, I always found more impactful things to do with the action, and the times I did do a 2nd strike, it wasn't super impressive.
Without a class boost to either str or dex, your 2nd attacks are just that much worse off.
That said, depending on what the feats look like and implement choice (Weapon & Tome), taking that second attack will always be your fallback option.
One small detail I love is that the Chalice works with negative healing, because that implement is perfect flavor for a dhampir/vampire character.
Also, assuming you can get an implement and its initiate feature by level 4 or 6 on a multiclassed character, what implements are the best for other classes? Mirror seems phenomenal on a Rogue, allowing you to set up sneak attack by yourself easily. Chalice and Amulet seem good for any front liners with a free hand, notably fighters who don't mind giving up a shield. Tome is a straight upgrade for any Raise a Tome Magus.
You get the implement at 6 according to the preview. The weapon provides a good AoO equivalent for anyone who wants it. My other choice would probably be mirror for the auto flank. Some parties might benefit from tome in the early game for an extra pair of skills but that falls off and would need to be retrained later.
I actually don't like amulet or chalice for a dedication thaumaturge. Amulet, to me, is too passive being purely defensive and won't ever get the adept bonus to extend that defense vs multiple attacks. For chalice, I'd rather have lay on hands for the same healing as drain, but without taking up a hand. That a champion dedication can get both LoH and the reaction which is about the same as the amulet is probably the route I'd take if I wanted those sorts of abilities unless I was fiending for that will save bump at level 12.
Even in that setup:
Rd 1 Wand -> shoot
Rd 2 Wand -> reload
Is going to be worse on damage than using a repeating weapon and shooting every round.
Capacity weapons only reload once the capacity is spent.
Repeating and capacity weapon have the exact same action economy until the capacity/magazine is spent, after which the mag spends 3 rounds to refill, or the capacity, whatever the reload is (usually 1 to 1). Of course, with the holsters, you can also just spend the 3 actions to completely refill the capacity, gaining the same benefits as the repeater.
Of course, drow shootist also gives access to the shootists bandolier, which makes the reload of the repeating crossbow far more enticing
But, I simply don't see the benefit of a 1d4 agile weapon with a capacity when you have access to thrown martial weapons that to can make returning that deal the same damage with the same traits but also having extra traits; whereas a bigger gun at least offers a bebefit
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Repeating and capacity weapon have the exact same action economy until the capacity/magazine is spent, after which the mag spends 3 rounds to refill, or the capacity, whatever the reload is (usually 1 to 1). Of course, with the holsters, you can also just spend the 3 actions to completely refill the capacity, gaining the same benefits as the repeater.
Even in that setup:
Rd 1 Wand -> shoot
Rd 2 Wand -> reload
Is going to be worse on damage than using a repeating weapon and shooting every round.
Repeating has no reload time, Capacity needs 1 action to switch barrels. Hardly the same action economy.
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I am curious how the Ammunition Thaumaturgy feat will work - it might be key for playing a ranged weapon Thaumaturge - but I'm not sure if it will let you use 1+ hand weapons. Totally could, though?
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I am curious how the Ammunition Thaumaturgy feat will work - it might be key for playing a ranged weapon Thaumaturge - but I'm not sure if it will let you use 1+ hand weapons. Totally could, though?
Thaumaturge being able to use a d8+2 bow seems too good, ngl.
I am curious how the Ammunition Thaumaturgy feat will work - it might be key for playing a ranged weapon Thaumaturge - but I'm not sure if it will let you use 1+ hand weapons. Totally could, though?Thaumaturge being able to use a d8+2 bow seems too good, ngl.
Yeah you might not get Implement Empowerment with it, but it might let you use a hand holding an implement to reload. Maybe?
I do agree that a longbow with all of the Thaum bonus damage feels too strong for a level 1 feat.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
] You get the implement at 6 according to the preview. The weapon provides a good AoO equivalent for anyone who wants it. My other choice would probably be mirror for the auto flank. Some parties might benefit from tome in the early game for an extra pair of skills but that falls off and would need to be retrained later.
The Tome skills are chosen daily, and eventually become Legendary. The Tome grants a circumstance bonus to attacks after a successful, free Recall Knowledge check. Using one or both of those skills for appropriate Lore skills could make the Recall Knowledge checks easier.
I think the value of the Tome depends a lot on your GM's style, how they handle Recall Knowledge checks, and how important skill checks are outside of combat. Being able to boost skills to fit your circumstances could be great. Need to know about smuggling? You're an expert! How do you sail that stolen ship? No problem.
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] You get the implement at 6 according to the preview. The weapon provides a good AoO equivalent for anyone who wants it. My other choice would probably be mirror for the auto flank. Some parties might benefit from tome in the early game for an extra pair of skills but that falls off and would need to be retrained later.The Tome skills are chosen daily, and eventually become Legendary. The Tome grants a circumstance bonus to attacks after a successful, free Recall Knowledge check. Using one or both of those skills for appropriate Lore skills could make the Recall Knowledge checks easier.
I think the value of the Tome depends a lot on your GM's style, how they handle Recall Knowledge checks, and how important skill checks are outside of combat. Being able to boost skills to fit your circumstances could be great. Need to know about smuggling? You're an expert! How do you sail that stolen ship? No problem.
Full Thaumaturges yes, but the post I was quoting was discussing archetype Thaumaturges. Those don't go past initiate as far as I could tell and while tome might get you two flex expert skills, those will eventually fall off and stop being useful.
For an actual thaumaturge, you want weapon for a melee build (and to scale it to paragon) and your secondary to be amulet, chalice, mirror or tome. Personally, if I were to play one, I'd probably go weapon+tome and run a champion dedication for the reaction and LoH. By level 6, I'd have the requisite heavy armor, a nice mix of abilities and skill flexibility.
For a long ranged character I'd probably go wand+tome and scale the tome to paragon.
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] You get the implement at 6 according to the preview. The weapon provides a good AoO equivalent for anyone who wants it. My other choice would probably be mirror for the auto flank. Some parties might benefit from tome in the early game for an extra pair of skills but that falls off and would need to be retrained later.The Tome skills are chosen daily, and eventually become Legendary. The Tome grants a circumstance bonus to attacks after a successful, free Recall Knowledge check. Using one or both of those skills for appropriate Lore skills could make the Recall Knowledge checks easier.
I think the value of the Tome depends a lot on your GM's style, how they handle Recall Knowledge checks, and how important skill checks are outside of combat. Being able to boost skills to fit your circumstances could be great. Need to know about smuggling? You're an expert! How do you sail that stolen ship? No problem.
I believe what gesalt said about the Tome would be how it's applied as a multiclass implement VS the full class' version. You only get 1 implement with a Level 6 class feat, and it can't ever be up'd to Adept or Paragon, nor do you get to have the Intensify Vulnerability benefit from it. So while Tome is amazing for the Thaumaturge class, the multiclass archetype might not want it as badly.
Using those temp skills for Lore skills is still pretty dang good, though, especially with the +1 built in.
Full Thaumaturges yes, but the post I was quoting was discussing archetype Thaumaturges.
My apologies!
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So! Everyone, I'd like to ask for some ideas!
I'm making my thaumaturge guide, which I'll release the day the book drops for PDF (not before, as I have not gotten permission from Paizo to preview their book so I don't feel it appropriate.) My guide already has four 'standard' builds (Strength, Dex, Natural Attack, Wand Focus) but I'm now looking for some more 'off the wall' builds. One of them I am definitely including is the foxfire build, but if anyone has any others, let me know. I'll make sure to credit your paizo handle (or any name you want to give me.) Remember, I am looking for strange, 'off the wall' builds, not just a standard ranged or strength build.
So! Everyone, I'd like to ask for some ideas!
I'm making my thaumaturge guide, which I'll release the day the book drops for PDF (not before, as I have not gotten permission from Paizo to preview their book so I don't feel it appropriate.) My guide already has four 'standard' builds (Strength, Dex, Natural Attack, Wand Focus) but I'm now looking for some more 'off the wall' builds. One of them I am definitely including is the foxfire build, but if anyone has any others, let me know. I'll make sure to credit your paizo handle (or any name you want to give me.) Remember, I am looking for strange, 'off the wall' builds, not just a standard ranged or strength build.
A Scroll-Caster build would be cool, given the free boosts to one of the 4 tradition skills, and the feats that give you free scrolls per day. Maybe pick up some additional scrolls from Scroll Trickster as well.
Does Thaumaturge still have the feat that allows him to use scrolls from any tradition?
So! Everyone, I'd like to ask for some ideas!
I'm making my thaumaturge guide, which I'll release the day the book drops for PDF (not before, as I have not gotten permission from Paizo to preview their book so I don't feel it appropriate.) My guide already has four 'standard' builds (Strength, Dex, Natural Attack, Wand Focus) but I'm now looking for some more 'off the wall' builds. One of them I am definitely including is the foxfire build, but if anyone has any others, let me know. I'll make sure to credit your paizo handle (or any name you want to give me.) Remember, I am looking for strange, 'off the wall' builds, not just a standard ranged or strength build.
I'm considering a Mirror + Regalia unarmed Thaum, using Stumbling Stance through Martial Artist and probably getting Flurry of Blows through Multitalented at level 10. Unarmed builds let you hold and keep up the passive bonuses like the Regalia offers, so that you do not lose the benefits while using (and not being able to quickly swap back off) an active implement.
Mirror is mostly flavor here. Amulet or Bell plus Regalia is probably better. Unfortunately, Flurry of Blows combines the damage for the purposes of weakness, which is a major downside. But two chances to hit for one action is still better than not.
Alternatively, the same sort of Amulet/Bell + Regalia unarmed build works really well with Gorilla Stance and Gorilla Pound. Regalia has pretty good synergy with both of those stances and neither required unarmored. Stumbling is agile (and finesse) so probably better, but Gorilla Pound is pretty swanky. Not a bad Flourish if you don't go Flurry of Blows.
I'd rather go for Martial Artist dedication and get Follow up Strike than going for FoB for an unarmed Thaumaturge.
Both unarmed ranged and Stumbling stance routes seem pretty good to me. Mountain stance might be good too (the mobility cost is hefty tho).
I'd rather go for Martial Artist dedication and get Follow up Strike than going for FoB for an unarmed Thaumaturge.
Yeah that is a good call - it is a little unclear to me how often you will have two Striking actions verse one with a melee Thaum. I suppose it depends on how highly you value Intensify. Regalia Intensify works fairly well with Flurry. But Follow-Up is very nice to have, even on a Gorilla Pound build (since that is once per enemy, usually).
I imagine Intensify will either be for defenses or only on turns you start in melee range already.
Btw, heard that Nonat recorded or is recording a video with the class feats, any idea when that is coming up?
Btw, heard that Nonat recorded or is recording a video with the class feats, any idea when that is coming up?
Haven't seen anything on twitter or YouTube from him about it - it is possible he'll save it for release day.
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Btw, heard that Nonat recorded or is recording a video with the class feats, any idea when that is coming up?
He said he’d do a ‘deep dive’ (non-stream where he goes over all class abilities and feats) but those usually take him a few days and a while to edit. Hasn’t come out yet (As of June 30, 2022), and depending on how his agreement with PAIZO is worded, might not come out until the book is officially released (none of his other deep dives were early.)
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I am curious how the Ammunition Thaumaturgy feat will work - it might be key for playing a ranged weapon Thaumaturge - but I'm not sure if it will let you use 1+ hand weapons. Totally could, though?
NoNat just posted an image of it on Twitter. It lets you reload using the same hand that is holding your implement.
Edit: Oh and now I see some feat called Diverse Lore right below that one so now I'm really curious what THAT feat is about.
Bow Thaumaturge looking pretty scary all of a sudden.
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I'm not sure if it's supposed to function with bows. The flavor text says arrows but I think it means bolts. It's meant to support hand crossbows, slings, and pistols.
The feat lets you reload but I believe you are correct in that it does not bypass the usual free hand required to shoot a 1+ hands weapon.
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It doesn't work with bows because:
1 - IMO they don't spend any interact actions to reload (I know this one has already been debated on the forums)
2 - Even if you could "reload" it you still need two hands on the bow when you make a Strike, requiring you to drop your off-hand implement and causing you to not benefit from Implements Empowerment regardless.
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I'm not sure if it's supposed to function with bows. The flavor text says arrows but I think it means bolts. It's meant to support hand crossbows, slings, and pistols.The feat lets you reload but I believe you are correct in that it does not bypass the usual free hand required to shoot a 1+ hands weapon.
True, just checked it. You need the second hand to shoot, not to reload.
Thank god.
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Interestingly (but not that impactful) enough, this allows you to use a weapon implement to reload another weapon - or maybe RAW itself. So a Drifter or Pistolero Gunslinger that multiclasses into Thaum and grabs this feat could use meta-reloads to reload their weapon, not just Dual Weapon Reload. You just need one of your weapons to be your implement.
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I can definitely see pistolero's picking up thaumaturge dedication just for this feat.
Yeah I was just thinking about it some more and while Drifters can use free hand melee weapons and use their melee reload, Pistolero would love to use Running Reload and could pull it off with a heritage + 4th level feat. Awkward because Running Reload is also 4, right? Not a bad option though, especially in free archetype games.
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I am curious how the Ammunition Thaumaturgy feat will work - it might be key for playing a ranged weapon Thaumaturge - but I'm not sure if it will let you use 1+ hand weapons. Totally could, though?NoNat just posted an image of it on Twitter. It lets you reload using the same hand that is holding your implement.
Edit: Oh and now I see some feat called Diverse Lore right below that one so now I'm really curious what THAT feat is about.
If I had to guess on Diverse Lore, it would just let you use Esoteric Lore on any topic, but perhaps at a penalty if it isn't a creature/hazard/haunt, filling a gap of the playtest feat Esoteric Lore.