@Gesalt: I think its because Feint is not MAP while trip is.
@Tristan: The comments above were separated, feedback on swashbuckler was generic, comments on 3rd action problem from monk was another.
I also think swashbuckler has less 3 action problems than the monk does because you'll often stride/panache action finisher, then turn that into panache/hit/finisher.
You'll refine your reaction game with levels, widen your options with items, and get better at obtaining a variety of options for your panache actions.
to do a similar comparison than I did with the monk, I've GM'ed 3 swashbucklers (yes I know, I GM a lot, I wish I had more player experience, I get to play so little that when I do I prefer casters)
Duelist: That one was in plaguestone and vs low perception humanoid creatures Liz (inspired by Elizabeth Bennet from Pride and Prejudice and Zombies) was absolutely devastating, often stride, feint, finishing on level ennemies in one shot. We only got to level 5 in this game but the whole crew cheered and whistled when she crit. She vastly out damaged the wolfstyle elf monk of our party, and was just as fast. (Player had more system mastery though)
Battledancer: Kingmaker remake, kitsune Dhampir battledancer swashy. Kind of feels on the low end damage wise in the lower levels vs her twin sister (kitsune dhampir rogue eldritch archer) and her Aniki love interest Orc Dhampir Scythe Fighter. Was great at repositioning and now that she got bleeding finisher she's caught up a lot. Her focus was mostly on finishing wounded ennemies to regain panache, and she was a good clean up crew to win action economy, using performance agaisnt multiple different ennemies at once or using leading dance to bring ennemies in range of the bigger damage dealers, then riding that panache with high mobility and flanking finishers vs mooks. (I like putting a lot of mooks in my games) Game is currently level 10.
Gymnast: Merrick in my online Iron Gods PF2E remake is a Gymnast Android swashbuckler with the medic archetype.
Player and main streamer is fairly new, coming from a D&D 5e and LARP heavy background though. So far I got to say I like her potential the most though, as she decided she wanted to play a more support based martial with a dash of gunslinger for laser pistol use. The player is still figuring out the whole rotation though, and precision damage has been unreliable because of the ooze and robot heavy environment (robots don't have precision immunity but their hardness makes them hard to open strong on) As a mobile status inflicter/healer she's been doing great though. Current game just hit 5, I'm thinking that she'll explode by level 10 because by then she'll deal a lot of bonus damage against prone and grabbed target and the party casters are very good at inflicting statuses. Also at that level she'll be able to gain perma fortune on athletics check.
Her build is also helped by the fact that there'll be electro whips, laser swords, fusion torches and all that that will help her damage output (its why she didn't go monk) and on top of that i've inputted a popular houserule making disarm a no MAP action. I think a monk would have been on par or possibly even better if it was a whirlwind toss monk in this party though, if it was in a game with less overtuned equipment (yes monastic weaponry is a build, but its VERY feat heavy and doesn't provide... much)
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All monks I've seen though really want ki blast,
Almost none of the monks I've built have ki blast. One had it only to improve his Electric Arc at level 9 :-), he had better things to do with his focus points (monk/bard).
The monk is an insanely flexible class in that you can use the chassis to make a very, very wide variety of characters (although any one character will NOT be anywhere near that flexible). I think this may actually be part of your issue. When you say "monk" you're seeing one subset of that number and when other people say "monk" they're seeing a possibly very different subset of that number.
I've built and played a quite decent high charisma monk. His damage suffered a bit at low levels since I wanted to keep him dex based and so Str took a hit. And he was NOT a maneuver monk.
But flurry with the occasional electric arc thrown in really rocks :-).
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Hmmm.
I suppose that if you were going charisma for feint-monk anyway, then EArc starts looking pretty tasty.
Hmmm.
You still outdamage a Monk by just keeping your panache on.In some white room thought experiment, sure. The expected bonus from panache often beats the expected damage from an extra -8 MAP attack.
In practice at the table? Not nearly so much (at least for the levels where swash doesn't have FoB). Its actually fairly rare that just standing there spamming attacks is your best course of action
You're SERIOUSLY underestimating how useful FoB can be. Its quite common that you need to spend 2 actions on something else in which case FoB absolutely rocks. It is incredibly nice to be able to ready a flurry.
A monk just rocks at either hit and run attacks OR at using shields combined with some mobility. Or combined with electric are if you ARE just standing and attacking.
Flurry of Blows basically guarantees that whatever shenanigans you're doing in battle, you'll always be able to hit twice (maybe even land a stun!).
It seems like for some reason the Monk has to be best at everything to be given a fair shout. Anytime a strength is bought up, its compared to another class that has a similair strength and then declared not as good. If a different strength is brought up, the same think happens with a different class.
Monk has good maneuverability: but so does Swashbuckler. Okay yes, a monk combines that with really good defences: yeah but not as good as a champion. Okay yes the monk combines that good defence with a solid action economy: yeah but rangers can get more lower map attacks in. Yes but monks action economy improves their ability to do more than attack and so on.
To be fair I opened by saying the monk was a jack of all trades and a master of none which made me feel meh about them.
I feel like the fact that you can have an extended back and forth about monk and swashy is pretty good evidence the two are balanced against each other and it is really just preferrance
Yeah but Swashy is one of the other martials that gets "this class sucks/why does it need to exist" threads from time to time.
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I mean, my perspective is that Pathfinder 2e is built so that many characters will be good at something even if they are not the absolutely best at it. So I don't think "jack of all trades" is a bad thing. Indeed, "pretty good at whatever you want to build for" is a thing that would make me interested in a class.
True, they're not vital.
All monks I've seen though really want ki blast, because who doesn't want to yell Kamehameha in the middle of combat !
I don't?
I think this is another one of those "the experience in my playgroup is..." things.
...and it's not like your swashbuckler with monk archetype version is getting those ki blasts either.
Oh definitely not! It's more of a personal bias there, if I ever build a Monk ki blast is gonna be a good contender for me. For child like candor reason.
You can also do a Monk/Swashy build based around monastic weapons to have a star wars feel.
Ooooooooo. Also psychic would be a cool multi class for a Jedi monk. The int would make it MAD as all get out but maybe there'll be enough utility to pilfer to make it work
You can try a Swashy gymnast with psychic FA ? Less MAD
You can try a Swashy gymnast with psychic FA ? Less MAD
I base all my builds on the assumption of no FA so I never come to a table disappointed. Also ki rush and wholeness of body and monk flying are things I definitely want on my jedi. Personal preference, but I also consider a monastic bent mirroring a Jedi closer than a Errol Flynn vibe. I can't really divorce class mechanics from class identity
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So, I recently played a monk in a homebrew game, who died at level 7 (not because of any mechanical issues but because half the party ran: a wizard who didn't bother to learn his class and ran because he didn't know and probably still doesn't about drain bonded item and because the annoying druid decided to waste all his spells on creatures that were single strikes from going down and who ran immediately as the fight began against a +3 creature encounter).
Anywho, the monk I played was an elf base with the half-orc versatile ancestry, built for pure speed. My level one stats were 14 18 10 12 14 10 with increases to Strength, Dex, Wisdom, and Con at level 5. I took no stance feats, as I planned to play him as a skirmisher until level 8 when I could use ranged unarmed strikes. I stacked the orc fist to bleed on a crit as well. My feats were ki strike, stunning fist, sneak attacker, and ki blast. With free archetype, I picked up rogue dedication, mobility, and sixth pillar. I put my proficiency upgrade into reflex because I didn't want to take damage (which was useful). And yes, I made him to be "a jack of all trades [who] is a master of none, but oftentimes better than master of one." But I also wanted him to be someone who only relied on his own mind and body, trying to reach perfection of the self.
The other party member (monk, druid, and wizard mentioned previously) was a champion, who used his last action no matter what to shield. The druid was a wildshaper, who never used it and spent most of his time blasting despite saying he was a frontliner, and the wizard wasted time and resources because he never bothered to read anything. As such, I was the primary damage dealer (rocking d6s with sneak attack), but I was also only damaged one time outside of the encounter that got my character killed, and that was due to a low initiative. Most of my turns involved moving twice with two attacks inbetween, so I did not waste resources on needing to be healed. (Also, I had medicine and battle medicine since those were not affected by my being unarmed). For that final encounter, I only died because the champion decided to stay and fight, and my character couldn't abandon him. Also, I am sick of casters blowing their spells and expecting everyone to just wait another 23 hours and 45 minutes for them to recharge. I just did not expect the other two to immediately run because we had a fair shot of winning.
As for why I enjoy the monk, it is because it is a total package class: the best mobility, good offense, the second best total defenses (second best in AC), and ki spells that can eventually cover for a spellcaster's AOE damage. Sure, any other class can pick up the feats as well as flurry of blows, but by that point, I have a ranged melee attack and another action saver that makes mobility almost redundant, which another class would not be able to get until level 20. Monk is honestly the only class that I would rather stay pure if I did not have free archetype as well because each level is meaningful (and some of the feats that are claimed to be non-choices are ones I skipped over either in this build or in the others I played). And to be honest, I didn't even go with the martial artist aesthetic for the character I described above; I went for a character who was closer to Yu from the webtoon The Boxer and the fighters in the webtoon The Weak Hero (but more on the superpowered side): a pure, brutal character who only cares about crushing his enemies, but who trains to be able to punch air from his fists or kick up a strong gust.
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One Monk build I have never been able to achieve in the past and that is fully functional in PF2 is the Monk + Barbarian Dedication, with Hokuto no Ken (Fist of the North Star in English) as an inspiration.
I just realized it opens up a fun build that can be achieved with a level 8 Monk (or level 16 with Monk Dedication).
Beware, here comes the Raging Jellyfish!!!!
For it to be functional, you need Stand Still + Jellyfish Stance + Wall Run.
It becomes nicer with Barbarian Dedication + Giant Stature.
The concept is simple: Jellyfish Stance, run on the wall, find a nice handhold (and succeed at your Reflex save to grab it) and you now control an amazing surface on the ground while being out of 5ft. reach. With Giant Stature (or Enlarge) you can control a crazy surface and stay out of 10ft. reach. A real pain for enemies with a smaller reach than you.
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One Monk build I have never been able to achieve in the past and that is fully functional in PF2 is the Monk + Barbarian Dedication, with Hokuto no Ken (Fist of the North Star in English) as an inspiration.
I just realized it opens up a fun build that can be achieved with a level 8 Monk (or level 16 with Monk Dedication).Beware, here comes the Raging Jellyfish!!!!
For it to be functional, you need Stand Still + Jellyfish Stance + Wall Run.
It becomes nicer with Barbarian Dedication + Giant Stature.The concept is simple: Jellyfish Stance, run on the wall, find a nice handhold (and succeed at your Reflex save to grab it) and you now control an amazing surface on the ground while being out of 5ft. reach. With Giant Stature (or Enlarge) you can control a crazy surface and stay out of 10ft. reach. A real pain for enemies with a smaller reach than you.
You can merge this with lizardfolk ancestry for the dangle ancestry feat and the scion transformation ancestry feat to be automatically enlarged and have the ability to hang from anywhere by your tail!
gecko's grip gives you a climb speed too.
One Monk build I have never been able to achieve in the past and that is fully functional in PF2 is the Monk + Barbarian Dedication, with Hokuto no Ken (Fist of the North Star in English) as an inspiration.
I just realized it opens up a fun build that can be achieved with a level 8 Monk (or level 16 with Monk Dedication).Beware, here comes the Raging Jellyfish!!!!
For it to be functional, you need Stand Still + Jellyfish Stance + Wall Run.
It becomes nicer with Barbarian Dedication + Giant Stature.The concept is simple: Jellyfish Stance, run on the wall, find a nice handhold (and succeed at your Reflex save to grab it) and you now control an amazing surface on the ground while being out of 5ft. reach. With Giant Stature (or Enlarge) you can control a crazy surface and stay out of 10ft. reach. A real pain for enemies with a smaller reach than you.
That's cool and all... but it can get most of what it wants without the monkness.
- One fo the big Barbarian disads (especially giant barb) is the lousy AC. Thus, it gets more out of this trick than the monk side does. Monks usually don't mind getting in the scrum quite so much.
- Jellyfish Stance is just giving you a decent one-handed attack with reach. There are weapons that will do the same. You have to spend an action to pull one out after you ledge-grab, but it's still quite doable.
- Stand Still is pretty awesome, but Opportunity Attack is almost as good, and available at level 6. If you're not critting regularly, Opportunity attack is actually better.
- Wall run lets you get into position that much faster, but it's not necessary for the build either. You can pull the trick off with athletics, and/or any of a number of athletics assists as well. They're not quite as good, but the cost is much lower. Slippers of Spider Climb (lvl 7) jump out at me in particular, and they both free up both hands (so you don't need racial shenanigans for the flickmace) and don't require you to grab an edge.
I mean... I kind of hate to be on the "it's possible to monk without being a monk" train, given some of the other arguments that have been presented on that line in this thread, but in this particular case it's possible to achieve basically the effect you describe with more effectiveness, with notably fewer feats, as long as you're willing to dip into your item budget a bit.
@Sanityfaerie: your honesty is commendable, I didn't want to be the one to say it on this one :$.
as mentionned above, lizardfolk is perfect for this kind of build with gecko grip, dangle and scion transformation. you can have a climb speed as soon as level 5.
It's still a nice build !
You can merge this with lizardfolk ancestry for the dangle ancestry feat and the scion transformation ancestry feat to be automatically enlarged and have the ability to hang from anywhere by your tail!
gecko's grip gives you a climb speed too.
Man, you need to pay more attention to what level things are available at. scion transformation is level *17*. Giant's Stature is level *6*. The two don't stack. Titan's Stature is level 12. It makes you Huge, and it doesn't stack with Scion Transformation either. Actually, technically, having Scion Transformation cripples it. (Actual rules text is "increasing your reach by 10 feet if you were Medium or smaller".)
Basically, if you're a barb, and you're in a fight, and you're not raging, you're doing it wrong. That makes Scion Transformation redundant at best for this case.
Incidentally, there *is* a way to mix monk archetype in with this build usefully. Specifically, Giant is one of the better instincts for a grapple-barb, and monk has some nice grapple-support abilities. Making yourself into a grappler that can't be reached has obvious utility, whether or not you can pull off your climbing trick. Brutal Bully and Crushing Grab combo nicely, for example. Of course at that point you have to compare and contrast monk archetype versus wrestler.
Oh, and dangle is pretty situational. I mean, if you've got a GM who likes handing out useful perches just to be nice it's great, but in my experience, that's not all that common.
True true, habitual Gming ruins me on level locked things.
Scions transformation is useful for non giant instinct barbs that want to do this with let's say reach weapons though. At higher levels....
Perches can be abundant on most paizo maps but not in underground settings though. Most maps with castle walls, houses, trees and such will have some perches.
Guess it depends on the GM and AP though.
but in this particular case it's possible to achieve basically the effect you describe with more effectiveness, with notably fewer feats, as long as you're willing to dip into your item budget a bit.
I highly disagree. It's possible to achieve the effect I describe, but with such a low efficiency that you will only achieve it if it's a winning move (which should be very rare).
First, you can't Stride and Climb in the same action. So if you don't start next to the wall you want to climb on, you need an extra action to Stride to it. And even if you start next to this wall, as you are now moving in 3 dimensions you need a high move speed to get to the enemies in one Climb. And that's if you have a Climb speed naturally (that nearly noone has) otherwise you'll need an extra action (to activate the Slippers or whatever). So you have lost your first round to get one Attack of Opportunity, a weak move.
The strength of the Monk is Wall Run. Without it, you need a Fly Speed to achieve similar results as Climbing is too clunky to be competitive. And even with Flying, the one action Stride+Climb without any need for activation nor resource consumption is unbeatable.
The strength of the Monk is Wall Run. Without it, you need a Fly Speed to achieve similar results as Climbing is too clunky to be competitive. And even with Flying, the one action Stride+Climb without any need for activation nor resource consumption is unbeatable.
Except that on the monk side....
- You need to spend your reaction for that turn on Grab an Edge, so you're not getting that first Stand Still.- You need to spend an action on getting into your stance.
Your point about the difference between Wall Run and a climb speed is a good one, but if your initial plan involves exploiting Stand Still as a shutdown move after you've given the enemy a full turn, and sometimes two turns, to get into position, it's a bit less impressive than one might prefer. Having it require high level makes it that much worse - the higher level you are, the more able the enemy's going to be at dealing with those sorts of shenanigans. I mean, Summoner can play silly reach+grapple+permafly games as early as lvl 14. You gotta figure that anything that comes online after that is only going to be situationally useful for reach exploits.
- You need to spend your reaction for that turn on Grab an Edge, so you're not getting that first Stand Still.
Damn, you're right, I missed that...
So yeah, it doesn't work, unless there's a place one can stand on. Sorry about that.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It appears that the recent APG errata has made some adjustments to Scales of the Dragon that are really quite friendly to str-based monks.
Admittedly, not as great as it could be - requires level 4, requires two feats, the rest of the archetype isn't all that great for monks - but still worth keeping track of, especially if you like the idea of never having to worry about taking your dex above 16.
It appears that the recent APG errata has made some adjustments to Scales of the Dragon that are really quite friendly to str-based monks.
Admittedly, not as great as it could be - requires level 4, requires two feats, the rest of the archetype isn't all that great for monks - but still worth keeping track of, especially if you like the idea of never having to worry about taking your dex above 16.
I dunno, I think monks can make pretty great use out of the Dragon Wings focus spell, since it lets them apply their ridiculous ground speed in the air.
I dunno, I think monks can make pretty great use out of the Dragon Wings focus spell, since it lets them apply their ridiculous ground speed in the air.
Hmm.
The two-action cost is pretty rough as a battle-opener, and monk has a lot of ways to spend feats to improve mobility, but I suppose I can see the value. Maybe if I wasn't doing anything else with my focus points (which, as a monk, I might not be).
There's also Resistance to consider. Flurry with dragon shape also seems cool. And I always like having someone in the party with scent.
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Alright, OP, I think I may have an actual answer to your question, "Why do I hate the monk where everyone seems to like it?"
From my reading of the thread, it seems that you like optimized characters as a first point, and that optimization is usually in the form of dpr, which is not something that the monk will be the best at over any other martial. Because dpr is so important to you and you can get many monk-like features from other classes, that may be why you don't like them. I think you may not be taking into account the full sum of the monk abilities when combined to make a very suitable character and instead focus on a few areas and how another specifically built character can take advantage of those specific areas you focus on, while not taking into account the opportunity cost for building that character when compared to a monk, who can get those abilities and many others for a lower opportunity cost.
That said, there is nothing wrong with you not liking the monk. I hate humans and clerics in my games, or at least playing the latter. Most casting classes aside from the wizard do not appeal to me either. The inventor and gunslinger do not fit into my ideal fantasy game either. Also, I would not play a swashbuckler because I think it is a worse rogue, but I wouldn't want to play most martials because they do not get as many skills (I like monk because it does not need anything in a ABP game and lives up to my ideal of the self-sufficient character, one who is gifted from his own efforts instead of needing a weapon or a powerful bloodline or a powerful being).
Alright, OP, I think I may have an actual answer to your question, "Why do I hate the monk where everyone seems to like it?"
From my reading of the thread, it seems that you like optimized characters as a first point, and that optimization is usually in the form of dpr, which is not something that the monk will be the best at over any other martial. Because dpr is so important to you and you can get many monk-like features from other classes, that may be why you don't like them. I think you may not be taking into account the full sum of the monk abilities when combined to make a very suitable character and instead focus on a few areas and how another specifically built character can take advantage of those specific areas you focus on, while not taking into account the opportunity cost for building that character when compared to a monk, who can get those abilities and many others for a lower opportunity cost.
That said, there is nothing wrong with you not liking the monk. I hate humans and clerics in my games, or at least playing the latter. Most casting classes aside from the wizard do not appeal to me either. The inventor and gunslinger do not fit into my ideal fantasy game either. Also, I would not play a swashbuckler because I think it is a worse rogue, but I wouldn't want to play most martials because they do not get as many skills (I like monk because it does not need anything in a ABP game and lives up to my ideal of the self-sufficient character, one who is gifted from his own efforts instead of needing a weapon or a powerful bloodline or a powerful being).
This has been brought forth several times in this thread, and while I do think DPR is important, because who wants to hit like a wet blanket when the barb is over there decapitating everyone in a single blow, that is not the main issue. After all, I almost always play, when I play, support and control roles that do very little damage and are designed to let others take the spotlight. When that happens I feel vindicated for my participation even though I am not the one doing the damage.
My issue with the monk are threefold:
-Lack of a defining gimmick. What defines them is their class feats, like the fighter, but the fighter vastly outperforms them in almost all areas except mobility. All other martial classes have a sub class or kit to help define their flavor. The monk doesn't and that annoys me.
-MAD: you can either start with good str and do halfway decent damage but have AC on par or lower than rogues and other non heavy martials, or you can start high dex and have low damage and low athletics check, making. You ideally want both to realize the monk ideal, and that's an issue that chases you through low and mid to the highs. Dragon disciple errata changed this a bit, but its a niche build.
-Feat starvation: While the monk has a lot of cool feats, there is often a BIS every level that locks you into that choice (stand still, stunning fist, etc) and prevents variety because if a feat vastly outperforms its other options why would you take the other options despite them being cool.
That being said, this thread has helped me understand the strengths of the monk better, that being mobility, versatility, and action economy.
I might take up a monk challenge play in the future If I'm playing in a one of or something. Couldn't see myself playing one from 1 to 20 though (I rarely get to play, and when I do I always fill the hole in the team, which is often support/control caster anyways)
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I thought the mobility WAS the defining gimmick. No other class even comes close.
I thought the mobility WAS the defining gimmick. No other class even comes close.
I mean it is, but I'd like to have the option of a non mobile monk that gets... I don't know... better access to monk weapons? It's a class feature, but its not as thematically defined as a barbarian instinct or a ranger edge.
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I consider Flurry of Blows to be the gimmick and Stances to be the flavor (even if I agree that they are less flavorful than actual subclasses, especially because you can take more than one or even switch to a higher level stance at some point).
I really disagree with your use of the acronym MAD. The Monk only needs 4 attributes and as such is not MAD at all.
Dexterity and Strength as your main attribute influences the balance between offense and defense, but it's not influencing much outside the pre-Striking Rune damage (which is very dependent on Strength bonus). Once you start getting Striking Runes, Elemental Runes and Weapon Specialization, the difference between a Strength and a Dexterity Monk becomes really small.
I quite agree on the feat starvation point. There are a few very strong feats, mostly low level ones. But compared to classes who have no strong low level feats (Barbarian comes to mind), I won't call it much worse. Once you have a Stance, Ki Strike, Stunning Fist and a Reaction, you can choose whatever feat you want, so you very quickly meet build choices.
Pf2e has cracked down on MADness a lot, mainly through not allowing x stat to y bonus shenanigans.
I meant MAD in the same sense that, say, the inventor or the swashbuckler is MAD. It's very minute and overall low impact but still an irritant. Also kinda prevents you from going into mental stats like int or cha without substantial cost because wisdom is such a strong defensive stat that helps a lot of your options.
That being said I enjoy the inventor immensely, despite that, but that might be because despite being MAD it's incredibly flavorful and fun to play. The pros outweigh the cons in their case I think. I don't get that feel with the monk but I do get that this is personal preference.
As for feats it's nice that they get there's but since levels 1-6 are kind of the "make or break" zone for campaigns, I feel it's important to make these versatile and fun. Monk feels like stunning fist, brawling focus, stand still, ki strike, zen archery, monastic weaponry and the stances could have been put into 3-4 "ways" that a player gets to pick at level 1 to help define what kind of monk they are.
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Hmmm. Actually, yeah. Let the monk core "ways" be "here's a way we're enhancing flurry of blows for you." Stunning fist would be one. Flurry of maneuvers might be another. Zen Archery would be a third. Monk weapons... maybe? Honestly, I have difficulty grasping why I'd care about monk weapons, if not for the archery option. Still, maybe have monk melee weapons be a fourth, if they can find some way to make it cool. Maybe monk weapons lets you use your weapon attacks even when in a stance that otherwise limits your strikes?
I agree that monk feels a bit too... smooshy as a class, and I think that "doesn't have paths" is actually part of that. It's a decision that everyone else gets that monk doesn't. They've got a great chassis and a bunch of really meaty feats, but they don't really have the sort of "this is the kind of X that I am" defining decision up front that most of the other classes get.
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Pf2e has cracked down on MADness a lot, mainly through not allowing x stat to y bonus shenanigans.
I meant MAD in the same sense that, say, the inventor or the swashbuckler is MAD. It's very minute and overall low impact but still an irritant. Also kinda prevents you from going into mental stats like int or cha without substantial cost because wisdom is such a strong defensive stat that helps a lot of your options.
That being said I enjoy the inventor immensely, despite that, but that might be because despite being MAD it's incredibly flavorful and fun to play. The pros outweigh the cons in their case I think. I don't get that feel with the monk but I do get that this is personal preference.
As for feats it's nice that they get there's but since levels 1-6 are kind of the "make or break" zone for campaigns, I feel it's important to make these versatile and fun. Monk feels like stunning fist, brawling focus, stand still, ki strike, zen archery, monastic weaponry and the stances could have been put into 3-4 "ways" that a player gets to pick at level 1 to help define what kind of monk they are.
I personally start speaking about MADness when a class needs 5 stats ideally, which is impossible to achieve and as such you have to choose a stat to ditch. The Swashbuckler is in that case (Dex, Str, Con, Wis and Cha are needed) and the Inventor, too (same stat with Int replacing Cha).
The Monk can choose to increase Str, Dex, Con and Wis, which is the basic Monk Build. You can ditch Dexterity by going Montain Stance, and Dex builds can ditch Strength even if it means losing some damage (more important at low level than high level). So, overall, Monk is not that MAD to me.
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Pf2e has cracked down on MADness a lot, mainly through not allowing x stat to y bonus shenanigans.
I meant MAD in the same sense that, say, the inventor or the swashbuckler is MAD. It's very minute and overall low impact but still an irritant. Also kinda prevents you from going into mental stats like int or cha without substantial cost because wisdom is such a strong defensive stat that helps a lot of your options.
That being said I enjoy the inventor immensely, despite that, but that might be because despite being MAD it's incredibly flavorful and fun to play. The pros outweigh the cons in their case I think. I don't get that feel with the monk but I do get that this is personal preference.
As for feats it's nice that they get there's but since levels 1-6 are kind of the "make or break" zone for campaigns, I feel it's important to make these versatile and fun. Monk feels like stunning fist, brawling focus, stand still, ki strike, zen archery, monastic weaponry and the stances could have been put into 3-4 "ways" that a player gets to pick at level 1 to help define what kind of monk they are.
I personally start speaking about MADness when a class needs 5 stats ideally, which is impossible to achieve and as such you have to choose a stat to ditch. The Swashbuckler is in that case (Dex, Str, Con, Wis and Cha are needed) and the Inventor, too (same stat with Int replacing Cha).
The Monk can choose to increase Str, Dex, Con and Wis, which is the basic Monk Build. You can ditch Dexterity by going Montain Stance, and Dex builds can ditch Strength even if it means losing some damage (more important at low level than high level). So, overall, Monk is not that MAD to me.
I'm disagree with you there. Swashbuckler need DEX, and need CON and WIS for the same reasons everyone else does. Most need CHA, but gymnasts can choose STR instead. But a swashbuckler can leave STR at 10 and still deal its proper damage due to finishers.
Monks pretty much need STR for damage, DEX for AC, and also CON and WIS. There's no room for INT or CHA. Mountain Stance still needs DEX down the line.
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Hmmm. Actually, yeah. Let the monk core "ways" be "here's a way we're enhancing flurry of blows for you." Stunning fist would be one. Flurry of maneuvers might be another. Zen Archery would be a third. Monk weapons... maybe? Honestly, I have difficulty grasping why I'd care about monk weapons, if not for the archery option. Still, maybe have monk melee weapons be a fourth, if they can find some way to make it cool. Maybe monk weapons lets you use your weapon attacks even when in a stance that otherwise limits your strikes?
I agree that monk feels a bit too... smooshy as a class, and I think that "doesn't have paths" is actually part of that. It's a decision that everyone else gets that monk doesn't. They've got a great chassis and a bunch of really meaty feats, but they don't really have the sort of "this is the kind of X that I am" defining decision up front that most of the other classes get.
That was an intentional design decision for the monk and fighter, but fighter feats basically create a psuedo path anyway.
But a swashbuckler can leave STR at 10 and still deal its proper damage due to finishers.
But if the Swashbuckler could raise 5 attributes, they would be happier. Hence my use of the word "ideally".
Monks pretty much need STR for damage, DEX for AC, and also CON and WIS. There's no room for INT or CHA. Mountain Stance still needs DEX down the line.
There is room for Int or Cha, I can easily build competitive Monks using either of these attributes as secondary attribute. Off course, there are tradeoffs but it's the case for most characters as there are very few classes that can raise only 3 attributes.
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That was an intentional design decision for the monk and fighter, but fighter feats basically create a psuedo path anyway.
Yes. It is clear that it was an intentional design decision, and that monk stances were intended to have the same sort of psuedopath effect. I think it was an incorrect decision, and I'm offering suggestions on reasonable/interesting ways to do it better next time.
I think it was also an incorrect decision for the fighter. The only reason the fighter gets away with it is that they have "the best: hits/crits" as their unique schtick.
I don't blame Paizo for making the choices they made. You do the best you can with the information available at the time, and sometimes you stumble a bit. It happens. Given that every other class since has had some sort of class path feature, though, I'd posit that they may well have come to the same conclusion after the fact that I have.
Maybe we'll see an unchained monk in the future?
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But a swashbuckler can leave STR at 10 and still deal its proper damage due to finishers.But if the Swashbuckler could raise 5 attributes, they would be happier. Hence my use of the word "ideally".
All classes would be happier if they could raise 5 attributes. That's not what it means to be MAD.
Monks pretty much need STR for damage, DEX for AC, and also CON and WIS. There's no room for INT or CHA. Mountain Stance still needs DEX down the line.There is room for Int or Cha, I can easily build competitive Monks using either of these attributes as secondary attribute. Off course, there are tradeoffs but it's the case for most characters as there are very few classes that can raise only 3 attributes.
Again, anyone can build classes with INT or CHA by lowering accuracy, WIS, or CON. That doesn't make monks any less reliant on the same 4 ability scores. Hence, MAD.
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The thing about high Dex low Str martials is that this is really a low level consideration. At 1st level, having 18 Dex and 10 Strength will really show up on your damage (though the monk has an edge here since they have d8 finesse stances while 1h finesse weapons top out at d6). By the time you're 12th level you're rolling 3d8+d6+d6+3+StrMod and that last number is at most 4.
You see this with all kinds of finesse martials, not just monks. I think players just see this as "lowish damage at low levels is just the thing I have to deal with." Barbarians are the kings and queens of low level damage, since you're rolling d12+6 right out of the gate. I don't think the monk really starts out significantly worse than a finesse ranger, champion, or even fighter. It's just that people are drawn to play "finesse monks" due to external factors (some of the class's appeal is "you're the fast class" I guess).
PF2 made a deliberate choice to make Strength martials viable at all levels, and they succeeded. The downside is that the pure strength monk kind of lags behind other Str-Martials unless you also invest heavily in Dex (or go mountain style which has table variation in terms of stuff like "can you jump").
Really, the main reason strength characters deal more damage is because finesse weapons tend to have d4 and d6 damage dice, with only a few using d8s. Dexterity-based monks are actually in a pretty good spot damage-wise since they can use stances to get attacks with a d8 damage die.
The Monk only needs 4 attributes and as such is not MAD at all.
I mean, needing four attributes means that all of your ability increases are dedicated just to maintenance, which means if you want to invest in something else you have to sacrifice some part of your core to do it. That doesn't sound great in terms of attribute flexibility.
There are some who have it worse, but it's still not great.
Contrast with like, a druid who depending on their build can kind of get away with whatever they want.
Ideally you want to put your 4 stat increases into the 3 save stats and your primary stat if it differs from those. So you usually only want one of Str/Int/Cha to matter for you.
But since the monk can arrange their saves basically however they want, you can afford to give up one of your save stats more readily than another class can. Sure the fighter can choose to go low-dex and wear heavy armor and lean on Bulwark. But it's more painful for the fighter to go low-Wis or low-Con than it is for the monk.
It's also the case that for Dex monks "you will want strength" is a temporary condition- you don't need athletics to wall run or wind jump, after all.
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PF2 made a deliberate choice to make Strength martials viable at all levels, and they succeeded.
I think stumbled pretty badly when it comes to dex vs strength tbh.
A strength build might have double the damage per swing over a similar dex build at level 1, but harshly scales down in relative value the higher your level, creating incredibly uneven damage comparisons between builds that aren't really counterbalanced.
That poor scaling means that for a dex-based character, investing in Strength is a matter of early game damage vs late game utility and becomes progressively worse of an investment the higher your level, which given the nature of TTRPGs is a bad choice to put on someone and leads to characters being built in fundamentally different ways depending on the starting level of a campaign.
High strength low dex characters still suffer from being borderline useless if an enemy is 5 feet outside their reach and they can't close the gap, even moreso in PF2 than in older games given the system's overall tighter math.
Strength is still a fundamentally niche stat that powers a couple things and is essentially meaningless if you don't care about those things. For those builds, the strength attribute could cease to exist and they wouldn't notice.
Sure, strength martials are viable at high levels... but so what? That's not a new thing. It's not really an accomplishment to be lauded. It's basically the absolute bare minimum.
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For low strength builds also don't forget that athletics is keyed on strz so you can't be the best controller there ever was if you're trailing 2 to 3 points behind the expected DC when that DC is very high already.
Sure you can wiz around tumbling everywhere but if you start with 10 Str all those sweet throw grapple and trip moves you're throwing will most likely land you on your ass for a long while.
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The 10 Str monk is bad at being a grappler in much the same way that the 10 Dex fighter is bad at being an archer.
The point is that the monk doesn't need any strength at all to reach things that other people would need to attack at range.
"fundamentally niche" is not how I would describe strength.
I mean, if you aren't using it for attack rolls, or investing significantly in athletics, it's at best something that's okayish to splash and at worst completely ignorable.
Does a level 19 wit swashbuckler, investigator, or tiger monk really care about the 1-2 points of damage they're missing from not throwing a couple increases in strength? What about a wizard? A flame oracle? A pistolero gunslinger?
The 10 Str monk is bad at being a grappler in much the same way that the 10 Dex fighter is bad at being an archer.
Which of those is more crippling to a build though? A 10 strength monk can't grapple, but they can still just flurry something (and they can still grapple some things with assurance tbh).
But your 10 dex fighter might as well just leave the table if an enemy's 5 feet too high.