Nearing the end of the Shaman Spirits. I really enjoyed shifting through all their information. I've got a new appreciate for the Oracle Streets Mystery and the Shaman's Slums Spirit. A level 4 Spirit Guided Oracle with access to both of them would make a fairly versatile spontaneous casting side for a Mystic Theurge build... Hmm...
^Happen to have a build handy? Be interested to see how this works especially well for that combination.
Unfortunately, no. I am holding off on listing out potential builds until AFTER I have gone through each of the classes. That is fairly difficult to do, because of my tendency to hyper focus on things, but I consider it an opportunity to reinforce my self-discipline.
However... Such a combination of abilities on the Oracle side sets up the Mystic Theurge with the ability to become a master in Stealth, hiding even while being observed with the application of even just a *tiny* bit of cover.
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Well, its been a full month since my last update. I FINALLY got through the sorcerer block of my review. Oracle list is still longer but that was a ride. Moving on to Witch next, and then to Wizards.
Interesting thing I discovered... You can completely remove the downside of the Oracle 'Wrecker' mystery with a single Sorcerer bloodline power. See the Vestige bloodline, 3rd level power.
^Good catch. Never mind Mystic Theurge -- somebody should put this into an Oracle guide. Although it is rather feat tax-y (Skill Focus (Knowledge (History)) usually won't be all that useful, and having a Bonded Object (from the first stage of Eldritch Heritage) be good for a spontaneous caster requires the advice in IluzryMage's Sorcerer guide -- should work for an Oracle as well, whether going into Mystic Theurge or not.
Witch has been completed! Getting close to the Build Combo section to start fleshing out interested concepts. Just need to get the Wizard section started and fleshed out. Shouldn't be ... too hard.
^Are you eventually going to put color ratings on stuff in places other than the Foreward page?
Anyway, keep it going. It is good to have stuff in tables to complement the more standard layout of guide.
Reposting the link to the spreadsheet so that it will also appear on this page of this thread. When you finish, post to the Guide to the Guides discussion thread so that you can get a link from there.
I am absolutely going to be color-coding the entire document once the rough draft is done. I'm still tossing around ideas on how to dial in the ratings, since this is a VERY specific guide instead of a general one.
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Despite our differences of opinion on how to play this prestige class I HAVE to respect this grind. You have reviewed...SO F#~*ING MUCH dude and this information is super super useful. Like f~~!, you go homie.
Say it three times and it must be true, haha.
Either way, thank you. I have my own particular bias on the role(s) the Mystic Theurge is most suited to fill, which I will expand upon greatly once I have posted the remaining material and moved on the the build combo section. But, my particular opinion is only worth so much to those that think a similar way. The rest of you can benefit from the concentrated information without all the drudge work.
Alright. The hard part of the assessment has been completed. I have gotten through the Wizard and all their abilities. Even surprised myself with what I found. How many of you knew that the Void (Elemental school) was so damn amazing? Seriously. That's the best debuffing ability I have EVER seen and it works SO well with a Mystic Theurge.
Anyway. I am moving on the the Build Combos section next. We'll see what comes of it.
^I assume you're talking about:
When you activate this school power as a standard action, you select a foe within 30 feet. That creature takes a penalty to its AC and on saving throws equal to 1/2 your caster level (minimum –1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence bonus.
This is certainly a powerful debuff that scales with your caster level rather than your Wizard level (which means that with Magical Knack (Wizard), you will be at or almost at full power for this), but the problem for a Mystic Theurge is that to make use of it yourself, you need to cast a spell before its expiration time of 1 round, which means that you need to Quicken a spell to get it in before this effect expires, and that requires unimpeded spellcasting progression (which Magical Knack doesn't help with), so this is better on a single class Wizard (or other 9/9 spellcaster VMC Wizard) than on a Mystic Theurge. Now, being a Mystic Theurge doesn't stop other members of your party from benefiting from this, as long as they know which opponent you are targeting.
This is certainly a powerful debuff that scales with your caster level rather than your Wizard level (which means that with Magical Knack (Wizard), you will be at or almost at full power for this), but the problem for a Mystic Theurge is that to make use of it yourself, you need to cast a spell before its expiration time of 1 round, which means that you need to Quicken a spell to get it in before this effect expires, and that requires unimpeded spellcasting progression (which Magical Knack doesn't help with), so this is better on a single class Wizard (or other 9/9 spellcaster VMC Wizard) than on a Mystic Theurge. Now, being a Mystic Theurge doesn't stop other members of your party from benefiting from this, as long as they know which opponent you are targeting.
This is absolutely correct. You won't benefit from the ability. Your party members will. That is my design philosophy behind this guide, to a certain degree. Mystic Theurges are, for the most part, support characters. You set up the combos and your party members detonate them. This might not appeal to some people's playstyle. That's ok. They might not get the kind of enjoyment from playing a Mystic Theurge that it offers. If you want something YOU directly benefit from, there are lots of other school options.
Just use the ability, take a free action to alert the group ("hit the big one") and use your move action to put some distance (and hopefully something) between you and the aggro you just earned.
^I assume you're talking about:
When you activate this school power as a standard action, you select a foe within 30 feet. That creature takes a penalty to its AC and on saving throws equal to 1/2 your caster level (minimum –1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence bonus.This is certainly a powerful debuff that scales with your caster level rather than your Wizard level (which means that with Magical Knack (Wizard), you will be at or almost at full power for this), but the problem for a Mystic Theurge is that to make use of it yourself, you need to cast a spell before its expiration time of 1 round, which means that you need to Quicken a spell to get it in before this effect expires, and that requires unimpeded spellcasting progression (which Magical Knack doesn't help with), so this is better on a single class Wizard (or other 9/9 spellcaster VMC Wizard) than on a Mystic Theurge. Now, being a Mystic Theurge doesn't stop other members of your party from benefiting from this, as long as they know which opponent you are targeting.
There is an argument to be made that it wouldn’t end until the end of your next turn… the rules are kinda unclear on when exactly 1 round effects end… general assumption is start of next turn, but the argument exists that it depends on when the effect actually starts. Something that benefits the caster immediately upon cast would end at the start of a turn while something that can’t benefit the caster until their following round would end at the end of their turn…
Again… just an argument that can be made.
If someone could make a fairly concise argument that takes into account all the other impacts such a 'reading' would have on all the other abilities that function the same way... I'd consider it. Until then, I'll treat the ability as lasting until the beginning of the wizard's next turn. Just because it might work if you read that ability 'this way', 'this one time', is not sufficient to sway me. Exceptions exist but they do not make a general rule.
That's just how I run things and how I take into account advice that I give on the forums. Not trying to tell you how to play the game at your own table.
Update!
Muscling my way through the Build Combination section! Trying to keep my own bias from influencing the recommendations for each class combo is ... challenging. As of right now, I am only focusing on the classes that synergize well with their casting ability score. Since there are no Int/Int combinations, that means majority Arcanist/Witch/Wizard combos have to wait till later.
If you got any particular build combinations that you want to suggest, I can add a section for them. Right now, the builds are merely classes, archetypes, main ability (domain/mystery/spirit/patron/etc) and some interesting results these choices make.
^I did post an Int/Int combination earlier for a Wizard-focused Mystic Theurge build, which is also the only decent combination using a 6/9 casting class for entry.
I was eventually going to get around to that particular build, but since it is only possible through one archetype of one class and the use of a particular Arcane Discovery to even pull it off, it was not high on the priority list.
It also has its downsides, as Iluzry mentioned above. But the concept of whapping your enemies upside the head with a big spell/prayer book is just too funny . . . seems almost Pythonesque.
Uh... Yeah. Sounds cool but ... why is a squishy Mystic Theurge anywhere close enough to slap someone with their large 'book'? I know it can, and likely WILL, happen at one point or another but getting away from the danger and buffing your allies seems the more effective use of your skills.
To that end, a possible build that I would use in place of that ... inquisitor dip, would be a Scroll Master Wizard that takes the Eldritch Heritage feat to pick up the 3rd level bloodline power of the Vestige bloodline. Then, his scrolls do not become useless at 0 HP and can still be used to attack/cast spells from, or defend himself if he uses one as a shield.
You could likely even combine the two concepts through use of Faith Magic, but I'd honestly feel that it's better to just be the Inquisitor, rather than dilute its effectiveness through the Mystic Theurge class.
I wasn't thinking of whapping enemies with a big spell/prayer book being the main thing a Wizard-focused Inquisitor-dipped Mystic Theurge would do, just that it would be really funny on the rare occasions where you could pull it off. Most of the time, you would be acting as an almost-normal Wizard with a decent assortment of added Inquisitor spells (plus your Faith Magic Discovery spell) for added utility.
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*blinks as he surfaces for air*
Making builds... is so much fun... And there are so many of them. Feel free to take a look. I've got skeleton builds per together for the Prepared/Prepared (Combos #1) casters which are merely suggestions about what archetypes or ability selection should occur to maximize benefits. I am avoiding offering many feats, race, or skill selections as they should be using the actual guide the OP provided. Or specifics guides for the classes in question to boost their casting capabilities.
The other combo pages are a work in process with minor placeholders in. If anyone has suggestions of builds for the Combos #1 page that they'd like to suggest, I can get them put in fairly easily.
^That is an awesome amount of work.
Druid, Build Combos, and Combos #2: Feyspeaker Druid is Charisma-based, but despite this, it ISN'T spontaneous, but prepared (like Seducer Witch). A lot of people complained about this when it came out.
Witch: Might want to add mention of the Charisma base of the Seducer Witch in more than just the column (or maybe highlight the column).
Wizard: Spell Sage Wizard: The abilities granted by the archetype are good, but while they do not scale with respect to effect, they do scale with respect to uses per day, which means that you don't get to use them much if you are a Mystic Theurge, unless you are a Faith Magic entry type (and even then, you still get cut short), so this isn't as good as it sounds. In contrast, actual Arcane School 1st level abilities give you a decent number of uses even at 1st level, and some of them don't care at all what Wizard level you have.
Build Combos: typo: "Druid is by no means not a bad option at all . . ." -- should be "Druid is by no means a bad option at all . . ." or "Druid is not a bad option at all . . .".
Combos #1: Typos (for some of these, multiple instances, but not all instances): "Seperatist" should be "Separatist"; "Nuetral" should be "Neutral"; "Temporarl Pool" should be "Temporal Pool"; "Thassalonian Specialist" should be "Thassilonian Specialist" -- the latter is tricky because in Ancient Greek on Earth, you would actually encounter "Thassal*" rather than "Thassil*".
Thank you! That was a great help, especially since you caught the Fey Speaker issue before I devoted more time than just two potential builds for it.
I fixed the typo errors you mentioned. Thanks. I was going to get around to spell checks and the like a bit later but now is good too.
As for the Spell Sage Wizard, I have adjusted its ranking slightly. Even if it gives up arcane bond and arcane school, the potential to cast ANY spell they want (even once per day with an majorly increased casting time) make it fairly valuable in my opinion.
I haven't seen any mention of Shelyn's Divine Expression feat that allows Cleric/Oracle levels to stack with Bard levels for determining rounds of Performance, and which action is required to start a Performance. It's not gamebreaking, and it doesn't say anything about progressing the potency of your Performance(s)... although a kind GM may allow the levels to stack in order to determine the strength of your Performances, too.
Mystic Theurge isn't going to continue either classes Bardic Performance, even if both classes offer Bardic Performance [like Evangelist Clerics and Ocean's Echo Oracles], so it would not be unreasonable to allow one to capitalize on getting as much out of their chosen classes as poasible before entering Mystic Theurge. Although, that is in no way guaranteed.
{. . .}
As for the Spell Sage Wizard, I have adjusted its ranking slightly. Even if it gives up arcane bond and arcane school, the potential to cast ANY spell they want (even once per day with an majorly increased casting time) make it fairly valuable in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong, Spell Sage Wizard is a great archetype for when you really need to be able to cast almost every type of spell (as long as you don't have to do it fast) -- it's just that it loses quite a bit more than some of the regular Arcane Schooled Wizards if you don't use it single-classed, so it doesn't mix so well with Mystic Theurge. (This isn't because of scaling of the abilities, but because of level-dependent scaling of their uses per day, and the fact that your uses per day of both of them start out extremely limited.)
I haven't seen any mention of Shelyn's Divine Expression feat that allows Cleric/Oracle levels to stack with Bard levels for determining rounds of Performance, and which action is required to start a Performance. It's not gamebreaking, and it doesn't say anything about progressing the potency of your Performance(s)... although a kind GM may allow the levels to stack in order to determine the strength of your Performances, too.
{. . .}
Divine Expression has 2 problems. The one that you mentioned is that Mystic Theurge levels don't count for it, so you won't actually be getting all that much out of it. The other one is that Bard is a 6/9 arcane caster, so progressing its casting doesn't get you as much out of Mystic Theurge as you really need to be getting out of it. Unfortunately, no divine casting class has a divine equivalent of Wizard's Arcane Discovery Faith Magic -- if they did, then you could use that to dip just 1 level in Bard and have nearly full divine casting, thereby making the relatively small investment worthwhile even though getting subpar advancement of arcane casting (the inverse of the Wizard-focused Mystic Theurge with Faith Magic and the Living Grimoire Inquisitor dip). But as far as I know, no such option ever became available (unless I missed something hidden in a weird place, all the ways to snag arcane spells on a divine caster end up having you cast them as divine spells; used to be that you could use an innate 2nd level arcane spell to qualify, but that got Errata'd out, to the great chagrin of Mystic Theurge builders everywhere).
Don't get me wrong, Spell Sage Wizard is a great archetype for when you really need to be able to cast almost every type of spell (as long as you don't have to do it fast) -- it's just that it loses quite a bit more than some of the regular Arcane Schooled Wizards if you don't use it single-classed, so it doesn't mix so well with Mystic Theurge. (This isn't because of scaling of the abilities, but because of level-dependent scaling of their uses per day, and the fact that your uses per day of both of them start out extremely limited.)
Hence why I lowered the rating for Spell Sage from 'Great' to 'Good', and the base Wizard is listed as 'Fantastic'. I wouldn't say it is a 'Mediocre' choice, since the ability to cast any spell you want once per day has a bit of the 'wow' factor I am looking for.
...used to be that you could use an innate 2nd level arcane spell to qualify, but that got Errata'd out, to the great chagrin of Mystic Theurge builders everywhere).
Wasn't really an Errata. It was a (poorly made) FAQ decision they made to allow it and is only natural they went back and fixed it. I was around back when 3.5e D&D had the same kind of argument about spell-like abilities, the warlock class, and qualifying for prestige classes, and I knew how it would eventually play out with Pathfinder. I didn't feel an ounce of chagrin about it. I merely felt pity for everyone else that jumped on that bandwagon and had the floor fall out from under them.
... I feel similar about other early entry methods for qualifying for Mystic Theurges (such as with Faith Magic) but acknowledge that particular has merit, and doesn't leave much room for abuse as your Divine casting is left far behind your actual level. So, I give it a pass, if begrudgingly.
^You're right. DeathlessOne, I'll leave it to you to do the honors. Also, your spreadsheet is now definitely far enough along to submit (along with the new discussion thread you make) to the Guide to the Guides thread.
^If Equipment Trick (Sunrod) works, this should, and vice versa. The corollary of this is that if Equipment Trick (Sunrod) is ruled not to work, this will probably also be ruled not to work for the same reason.
I just found that the Stargazer prestige class lets you cast light spells at +2 levels, so you could make a build of wizard 5 / cleric 1 / stargazer 2 / MT. That's a slower entry, but it does save you a feat. Worth a mention?
^If Equipment Trick (Sunrod) works, this should, and vice versa. The corollary of this is that if Equipment Trick (Sunrod) is ruled not to work, this will probably also be ruled not to work for the same reason.
Stuff like this is why I and a few others keep trying to tell you all that it doesn’t work. There is a distinct difference between a spell being treated as a spell of X level and being able to cast a spell of X level. A strict understanding of the rules would have you understand that casting a spell with a 1st level spell slot that is treated as a 3rd level spell is NOT the ability to cast 3rd level spells. If you cannot use a 3rd level spell slot then you do not have the ability to cast 3rd level spells.
The only “early entry” method that actually works by RAW and doesn’t rely on a warped reading of the rules is Faith Magic… and it isn’t even actually early entry, it actually requires more levels than normal standard entry does…
so what you are saying is that 'the ability to cast 3rd level spells' is not the same as the ability to cast 3rd level spells.
make perfect sense.
how about you link the rule that say so while your at it?
btw in your post above you said that:
"Also... none of the early entry methods you listed actually work. There is a huge difference between being able to cast 2nd level spells and being able to cast a 1st level spell treated as a 2nd level spell. The early entry tricks you listed all fall under the latter. You still only possess the ability to cast 1st level spells with those tricks, the tricks just enhance the spell as if it were a 2nd level spell increasing the save DC, identify DC, and dispel DC by 1 spell level."
but if you bother to re-read the feat's text you would see you missed a few important words:
"Trickster’s Mirror (Spell Focus [illusion]): You can use a mirror worth at least 10 gp as an additional material component for an illusion (figment) spell. The spell is treated as 1 spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs." (the same wording are at the sunrod trick)
wouldn't 'all purposes' also include, oh idk, the ability to cast it?
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wouldn't 'all purposes' also include, oh idk, the ability to cast it?
Wouldn't "all purposes" also include, oh idk, what slot it takes to prepare it?
While you have it prepared or know, the light/figment spell in question is still a 1st level spell, only during the process of casting it is it actually (treated as) a 2nd level spell. If it did count as a 2nd level spell at other times, it would take a 2nd level spell slot to prepare/cast, because that, too, falls under "for all purposes".
If the light spell counts as a second level spell before being cast, it must require a second level spell slot. If it doesn't count as a second level spell before being cast, than it doesn't count for "Able to cast 2nd-level divine(/arcane) spells". Unless you're levelling up while in the process of casting the spell, the spell either requires a 2nd level spell slot to prepare or cast, or cannot possibly help you qualify for Mystic Theurge.
Same argument applies to the Djezet and to the Stargazer ability.
come now. lets not go back in time!
the spell count as 1 higher when you cast it, not before. the same way you are were not a level 2 fighter when you were level 1. but after reaching level 2 fighter you an count yourself as such for any requirements, you don't go asking him, but last level you were level 1, so how can you count as 2? same here. you are required to be able to cast a level 2 spell. and you can. nothing ask if before casting the spell it was a level 1 ,2,3 or 20!
after being able to cast it, how are you any different form any other caster who can cast level 2 spells using level 2 slots?
or are you saying once they have no more level 2 spells to cast they loose their 'able to cast level 2 spells ' ability?
the whole 'in the process of casting' or 'later' is something you made up, nothing in the rules ask for that definition! all it ask is, are you able to cast a level 2 spell? which the answer is (after taking the feat etc) - yes!
they do not ask. are you now able to ? and now ? how about now?
once you take the feat and have the requirements ready you ARE able to cast level 2 spells. no less then anyone who uses a level 2 spell slot to do so.
the requirement to have a level 2 spell slot is something you guys added and it is nowhere in the rules. (as far as i know, or can you link it if it is?)
You want a rules quote. Ok how about the only rule in the entirety of pathfinder that even touches the subject. Wizard spellbook.
A wizard must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).
“Based on his new wizard level”. So in other words when your class progression says so, aka read the chart. What does the chart tell you? You can cast 2nd level spells when you have 2nd level spell slots.
And yes, that is the ONLY rule that even approaches the subject… without it you might as well say “I can cast 9th level spells at level 1 because my casting stat is 19”. Nothing else in the rules even comes close to defining what “level of spell you can cast” actually means. Why? Because it was thought to be an intuitive statement. There wasn’t a need to define it, they thought we would just simply understand what it meant. Luckily whoever wrote Wizard thought to make a simple note referencing what the line means though.
all it ask is, are you able to cast a level 2 spell? which the answer is (after taking the feat etc) - yes!
No, you're able to cast a 1st level spell that then gets treated as a 2nd level spell.
If the "for all purposes" is applied outside of actually casting the spell, the spell takes a higher level slot to prepare/cast, and a 1st level caster can't use it. If the "for all purposes" is not applied outside of actually casting the spell, it cannot help you qualify for something. Neither interpretation allows early access.
Quite frankly, I think the "it takes a higher level to prepare/cast" might actually be the strict RAW, as that's the only way "for all purposes" actually does what it says.
@Chell Raighn you proved that a wizard have 2nd level spells when the table say so. that doesn't matter at all to other things (sorcerer included).
the fact a wizard can get apples in the store and that you need an apple for the teacher, doesn't mean some1 with an apple tree need to go buy apples in the store.
to point, you need to be able to cast 2nd level spell. with the feat for all purposes you cast 2nd level spells. until proved otherwise that should be it.
@Derklord i would like to argue a bit about the whole purposes outside of casting, but it's irrelevant as the CASTING is what we actually come here to use. one need to be bale to cast x level spells. the feat let him CAST x level spell. and it count for all purpose as a 2nd level being CAST. why would i even care about stuff outside the actual casting?! it's not listed anywhere that it matter.
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... It is reasons like this that I absolutely slam shut any attempts at early entry into the Mystic Theurge class (or any other casting prestige class for that matter). In the end, it is always loose reading of the rules that allow for niche ideas to be POSSIBLE in theory but absolutely ruin and undermine the overall application of existing rules that govern all other mechanics.
Personally, I don't care how high a level you can make the spell SEEM TO BE. If you do not have the spell slot of the given level to cast that spell from, you aren't capable of casting that level of spell. You just found an interesting way to momentarily fool the universe into treating it differently for a moment.
By all means, play it however you want in your own games. Such tactics will never be acknowledged as legitimate in my games or in any guides that I might be involved with. That might seem like a hard stance to take but it's one I've held since 3.0e D&D and one I've seen argued to death countless times, and they always end the same way.
@Chell Raighn you proved that a wizard have 2nd level spells when the table say so. that doesn't matter at all to other things (sorcerer included).
the fact a wizard can get apples in the store and that you need an apple for the teacher, doesn't mean some1 with an apple tree need to go buy apples in the store.to point, you need to be able to cast 2nd level spell. with the feat for all purposes you cast 2nd level spells. until proved otherwise that should be it.
The burden of proof is on you now. Because if you are going to dismiss the only rule that even touches the subject as irrelevant then why do you even need a feat that lets you cast a spell as a higher level? The only other thing in the rules that even remotely applies is the fact that any caster must have a casting stat equal to 10+spell level to cast a spell… and if that is the only restriction in the rules that matters then clearly you must have the ability to cast 2nd level spells at 1st level simply by having at the very least a 12 in the casting stat for the class. And I am sure we can all agree that is not the case. But why do we agree on that? There must be something in the rules that is telling you that you don’t have the ability to cast anything higher than 1st level spells at 1st level for you to feel the need to have a feat or ability try to circumvent it. If the only place the rules clearly set a limit is meaningless, then why do you need to try to hop through hoops? The truth is you intuitively know that your ability to cast X level spells is based on your access to X level spell slots. We all know this.
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@Chell Raighn you proved that a wizard have 2nd level spells when the table say so. that doesn't matter at all to other things (sorcerer included).
So you're claiming that “I can cast 9th level spells at level 1 because my casting stat is 19” is only false for Wizard and not other classes?
and it count for all purpose as a 2nd level being CAST. why would i even care about stuff outside the actual casting?!
You keep using, and highlighting, the word "cast". That word doesn't appear in the description of either relevant option of Equipment Trick, though. Which means that your statement of "the spell count as 1 higher when you cast it, not before" is completely fabricated (funny that in the same post you criticize us for allegedly making things up). The spell doesn't just count as one level higher "when you cast it", it counts as one level higher "for all purposes". Which spell slot you need to prepare it in, or which spell slot you need to spend to cast it, are purposes.
but your proof doesn't help you at all. all it prove is that the spells the wizard gain must be from a level set by the table and that table state that he can cast them. i never said otherwise. i recognise the table of the wizard progression as the NORMAL level of spells the wizard can cast. but that is not excluding any other way some1 might cst spells. for an example i talked about the sorcerer table. he too can cast 2nd level spells and that happen differntly. or are you saying only a wizard can get into this prestige class?
you seem to mix a proof for allowing a thing with a proof to disallowing an other. your proof by no way exclude other ways to gain 2nd level spell casting.
in short you proved nothing for disallowing the trick to cast 2nd lvl spells, you only showed proof for the normal way a wizard can gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells.
@Chell Raighn you proved that a wizard have 2nd level spells when the table say so. that doesn't matter at all to other things (sorcerer included).So you're claiming that “I can cast 9th level spells at level 1 because my casting stat is 19” is only false for Wizard and not other classes?
and it count for all purpose as a 2nd level being CAST. why would i even care about stuff outside the actual casting?!You keep using, and highlighting, the word "cast". That word doesn't appear in the description of either relevant option of Equipment Trick, though. Which means that your statement of "the spell count as 1 higher when you cast it, not before" is completely fabricated (funny that in the same post you criticize us for allegedly making things up). The spell doesn't just count as one level higher "when you cast it", it counts as one level higher "for all purposes". Which spell slot you need to prepare it in, or which spell slot you need to spend to cast it, are purposes.
about 'casting' do you know any other time a "material component" is used for a spell? (pretty sure the chapter the explain material component is the magic section and it was at the spell casting details, along with targeting, saves etc)
"spell slot you need to spend to cast it" again, i talked about time keeping (way back with the example of 2nd level fighter once being 1st but no longer). if you keep making it 1 level higher even before it gets the one level higher all your spells would end up being 9th level as they keep increasing until the max. when you apply the +1 spell level there is obviously a time BEFORE applying it. which goes back to the casting and using the material component.
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zza ni, you haven't dispelled or really addressed any of my arguments. Unless you can somehow show that "for all purposes" doesn't include spell slots required to prepare or cast the spell, your entire argument is based on a faulty premise.
Let’s look at this through a different lense for a moment… let’s say there was a prestige class that had a requirement of “ability to create steel items” and a class that had a an ability that let them create a limited number of items per day out of various different materials. If at first level you can make items out of wood and take a feat that allows you to harden wooden items you create to be as strong as steel and “are treated as steel for all purposes” do you count as having the ability to create steel items and therefore qualify for the prestige class?
zza ni, you haven't dispelled or really addressed any of my arguments. Unless you can somehow show that "for all purposes" doesn't include spell slots required to prepare or cast the spell, your entire argument is based on a faulty premise.
dude! really? did you bother reading the 2nd half of my post before writing your's???
i guess i'll have to break it up for you..ahem:
""spell slot you need to spend to cast it" again,
- here is me starting to answer your question about the increased spell slot
i talked about time keeping (way back with the example of 2nd level fighter once being 1st but no longer).
- here is the main thing. we are playing in a linier time keeping game. as in ,before things happen they do not happen! before a level 2 fighter is level 2 he is not a level 2. before getting the +1 to the spell level the spell is not +1 to it's level!. so...
if you keep making it 1 level higher even before it gets the one level higher all your spells would end up being 9th level as they keep increasing until the max. when you apply the +1 spell level there is obviously a time BEFORE applying it. which goes back to the casting and using the material component."
- so what your sayig is that an ability that increase a spells level should also increase the spell slot used to cast it before it happen to increase it's level looping up (would be to infinite but luckily the ability mentioned a top level of 9th).
as i explained before the fact the mirror\sunrod are spell components used for the spell and the ability ask for their use to work. so BEFORE using them they do not work.
let's try and envision it your way. if the ability worked before itself (and if only once). you are asking a caster to invest in a feat that increase his spell level by one but also need to increase his spell slot by one (and not indefinitely). so casting a 1st level spell will cost a 2nd level slot and work as a 2nd level spell. that is just heighten spell metamagic. why would a copy of a metamgic feat be needed, not only cost a mirror\sunrond and feat tax to work?!?
you have to draw the line when the feat's ability start to work before it works the spell is at it's normal level. after it's 1 level higher.
if you want it to work before using a spell slot it's a worse designed limited to one level heighten spell.
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but all this is side tracking, the fact of the matter is the ability uses the words 'The spell is treated' as in the spell is cast the same way +the mirror\sunrod but treated as if it's 1 level higher.
treating is not the same as the source but get you the same end result.
so if i buy a candy for a dollar or use a stamp that is treated as if i payed a dollar - i still get to own a candy.
the feat doesn't let you cast an x level spell that count as an x level spell. that would not be the right feat here. it let you cast an x level spell that in the end result is treated as if you cast an x+1 spell for all purposes.