Is a Battle Cleric Better?

[Swiftbrook]

I'm building the front line tank/basher for a party of four starting the Kingmaker AP. We have a Elvin Curve Blade wielding Hunter, Archer (class TBD), and Arcanist. I'm looking at playing a dwarf.

I've been looking at Cleric, Cleric with archetype, War Priest and Paladin. Then I started thinking, would a Cleric X/Fighter 1 be better than all the rest? If I take one level of Fighter as either my first or second level, I'm only one level behind in my full casting (similar to the Oracle), but I get +2 to my Fort save, heavy armor proficiency, tower shield proficiency if I want to use it, a +1 to my BAB and a bonus feat.

So, is a Cleric X/Fighter 1 better than the others?

[MrCharisma]

Depends what you want to do with it.

Just so we're clear, your +1 BAB will only be applicable every 4 levels.

BAB Comparison:

Cleric-20 // Fighter-1/Cleric-19 (BAB progression)

L1: +0 // +1 Fighter level gives +1 BAB
L2: +1 // +1 Cleric level gives +0 BAB
L3: +2 // +2
L4: +3 // +3
L5: +3 // +4 Fighter level gives +1 BAB
L6: +4 // +4 Cleric level gives +0 BAB
etc.

So you'll have +1 BAB at the following levels
L1: +1 BAB
L5: +4 BAB
L9: +7 BAB
L13: +10 BAB
L17: +13 BAB

There are 2 notable levels there, Level 1 (where +1 BAB gives you access to things like Weapon Focus) and level 5 (when +4 BAB increases your Power Attack/Deadly Arim damage, and gives access to some less common feats). There might be some interesting things at level 13 with +10 BAB, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

The other benefits of a Fighter dip (Weapon/Armour proficiency, bonus feat, increased fort-save) all pretty much work as intended.

As to what's better? Depends what you want. If you want to focus more on combat than magic then the Warpriest or Paladin is probably better. If you want to focus a bit more on the magic side then a Warpriest or Cleric (with or without archetype and/or dip) is obviously better. If you're looking at a feat-heavy character then the Warpriest is almost certainly the best option. For my money I'd rate them Paladin>Warpriest>Cleric for their ability to absorb attacks, but realistically any of them could fill that role very easily.

Aside from "front line tank/basher" and obviously some divine magic do you have anything specific in mind for this character?

[Swiftbrook]

MrCharisma wrote:

Aside from "front line tank/basher" and obviously some divine magic do you have anything specific in mind for this character?

I'm looking at being a full caster. I'm willing to take a one level hit. Since I will be the party's primary divine caster, I'm interested in doing it well. Also, I'm looking at channeling and at some point swift channel so I can still attack every round.

I'm thinking about a hammer of some type for my primary weapon. Hammer and shield or Earth Breaker. I haven't quite looked that far yet. If I can afford it (I doubt it), I'll take a teamwork feat so I can pair up with the Hunter and his pet.

I'm also thinking about taking Weapon Focus as my fighter bonus feat.

[Melkiador]

The dwarf penalty to charisma makes a lot of options less than optimal. But if you’re interested in mostly being a caster, then you almost have to go cleric. I don’t think the 1 level dip will ruin you, but I don’t think it does much for you either. Dwarven weapon proficiency already gives you a good one hander and you’ll be wanting to use a light shield for the aggro that being a caster will cause. The heavy armor proficiency of fighter isn’t bad, but you could just grab that with a feat.

[MrCharisma]

Melkiador wrote:

Dwarven weapon proficiency already gives you a good one hander and you’ll be wanting to use a light shield for the aggro that being a caster will cause. The heavy armor proficiency of fighter isn’t bad, but you could just grab that with a feat.

Yeah I kinda agree with that. This means the Fighter dip is really just giving you 2 feats (Heavy Armour and whatever you take with the bonus feat). That's not terrible on a non-Human Cleric. It takes you from 10-12 feats overall (~+17% feats), but takes you from 5-7 feats pre level-10 (~+40% feats). Whether those early feats are worth it to you is really up to you.

Regarding being a caster - if you went Warpriest along with the Hunter you'd have 2 6/9 casters, which should cover any need for divine magic in the party. It won't be as strong as a single Cleric or Druid, but it'll be more than strong enough - you don't NEED a 9th level divine caster in the party. Of course if you're going Cleric because that's what you WANT to play a 9th level divine caster then great.

[rorek55]

Having a cleric is a -need- for early play. Otherwise things can really bog down. Its also really handy to have a cleric around, though most of that can come in the form of an NPC. (status removal/healing)

I've taken leadership more than once simply to grab a cleric for the party. They did very little in combat, but their buffs and utility with things like remove X always pays for itself.

I honestly don't like the warpriest, I don't know why, its got everything I love in a class. Fun abilities, gish style, self sufficient. Just something.. off about it. Maybe because I'm an old stick in the mud paladin.

It sounds like you and the hunter will be the primary frontliners. The pet will do good work up to around level 12, and it can still do good work if you drop cash on it past that. Paladin is, bar none save inquisitor, the king of "I can do this all day" in the idea that they take hits better than any other class in the game.

great saves, immunities, some of if not the best self healing in the game, and, at higher levels, channel better than clerics, and more than clerics. Fey foundling at level 1 and you're good. I've also made a paladin gunslinger before, that was a fun time.

Now, if you don't want to be a paladin (and I wouldn't suggest it as a dwarf)

There are two ways to go about making the cleric- reach cleric, which is considered "more optimal" and the standard SnB cleric.

Depending on how you do stats, SnB's advantage is, its less MAD. You don't need more than 12 dex really. A reach cleric normally wants about 14 minimum. And, with SnB your AC will always be higher. Especially once you get magic vestment and slap it on your shield every morning.

I like the 1 level fighter dip, Though, perhaps look into taking the unbreakable fighter archetype, as this gives you endurance and diehard. With a decent con score of 16 (easy as a dwarf) you effectively have 15 hp more than normal, and you can pop a heal on yourself to stay up.

[Derklord]

rorek55 wrote:

Having a cleric is a -need- for early play.

No. Absolutely not. There is nothing a Cleric does that you can't do with another class (or a combination of classes).

[Arkham Joker]

Swiftbrook wrote:

I'm building the front line tank/basher for a party of four starting the Kingmaker AP. We have a Elvin Curve Blade wielding Hunter, Archer (class TBD), and Arcanist. I'm looking at playing a dwarf.

You're trying to do way too much with your build IMO. No offence but this is the classic newb mistake when cleric building.

Do you 100% need a full divine caster?

If the answer is no then Warpriest is often the better option.

[Kasoh]

I'm a fan of taking Heavy Armor Pro as 1st level feat and calling it a day. The multiclass is largely unnecessary.

[Melkiador]

Derklord wrote:

There is nothing a Cleric does that you can't do with another class (or a combination of classes).

That's misleading. You can't do it with just any combination of classes. You need pretty specific combinations to replace a cleric. And this party doesn't seem to have that.

And honestly, every one of those healing combinations usually ends up being less appropriate for what the original poster wants. A dwarven melee fighter who can handle "healing".

[PCScipio]

I successfully filled the party healer role in Ironfang Invasion with a high strength reach Shaman, from 1-17th lvl.

[Melkiador]

I really don't like shaman for melee, because of the low fort save. But I guess that's less of an issue if you are a dwarf.

[Mark Hoover 330]

The things you've identified as things you want to do well:

1. Frontline fighting; starting the game with Weapon Focus
2. Divine spellcasting
3. Channel Energy
4. Potential Teamwork feats

I would humbly suggest Warpriest. If you want to get super serious about it, consider the Divine Commander archetype.

With a standard Warpriest you're slightly behind Fighter 1/Cleric X in BAB, but you'll get spells up through level 6, you'll have a free weapon focus and minor boosts to attack and damage built in through Swift actions, spells and weapon damage increases.

You will get Blessings and you'll count as a Fighter for things like Weapon Specialization and such. Finally, you'll get bonus feats, though less of them than being a fighter 20, but more than you'd get as a Cleric. The downside is that your Channeling would be far less than a standard Cleric.

As a Divine Commander, you give up your Blessings for a Mount feature. It acts as an Animal Companion in the way it advances and, at level 3, you trade out the standard bonus feats for a Teamwork feat you can hand out to everyone as a Standard action. You give up your level 6 bonus feat for putting a template like Celestial on your mount.

These abilities increase as your character level increases. At 15th level you can use your holy symbol and 2 uses of your daily Fervor to give your army +1 to OM and DV; I never got high enough level to use this ability so I don't know what that does, but I'm guessing it'll be good for Kingmaker.

So... general warpriest for all-purpose benefits, or Divine Commander for a mount and some emphasis on Teamwork feats. When I used this archetype, I ended up going Warpriest (Divine Commander)6/Hunter 3. I had a GM kind enough to let my halfling's wolf Mount from Warpriest count as his Animal Companion under Hunter, so by level 9 I was riding around on a Large Celestial Wolf with the TW feats Broken Wing Gambit, Pack Flanking, Paired Opportunists and Pack Flanking.

While a lot of my other feats were related to ranged attack with my slingstaff, any time we got into melee we were always flanking, opening up our defenses and giving our opponents +2 to hit us, but if they took the bait we were trading off AoOs with even greater accuracy. At the same time I had healing and restoration magics on wands and scrolls, I had Fervor/Divine Favor or Swift healing to keep myself going and on the rare occasion it still worked, I could get a nice Trip on a melee foe for even more AoOs.

I'd hand out Paired Opportunists once in a while, when I thought the foes we might be up against could be tripped, so that my other 2 melee types could pick up the accuracy bonus on the AoOs as a foe stood up. It got to be that if I could get a foe to the ground it was essentially a death sentence for them unless they could do something without provoking.

Anyway, obviously I'm biased, but I still think Warpriest or maybe Divine Commander could be extremely helpful!

[rorek55]

Derklord wrote:

rorek55 wrote:

Having a cleric is a -need- for early play.

No. Absolutely not. There is nothing a Cleric does that you can't do with another class (or a combination of classes).

My point still stands, you need a Cleric, or a cleric look a like. In most cases having a cleric makes things easier for the party.

[VoodistMonk]

Kingmaker is not outright deadly enough to warrant complicating your character's build with multiclassing... unless you want to. Or unless the GM has modified the material. Or unless your GM plays an inherently deadly game with uber strict environment rules, and such.

Point is, for the Kingmaker AP specifically (and probably most other AP's), you don't NEED to optimize. If you WANT to take a dip for flavor, do it. But it is not necessary for survival, by any means.

Divine Commander Warpriests is where I would start, by the looks of it, though.

[Arkham Joker]

If you're determined to do the dwarf cleric thing, here are IMO your best approaches in covering multiple bases:

1) As a general rule as a Dwarf, minimise/dump CHA
2) Get Steel Soul + Glory of Old for tankyness
3) Healing realistically isn't going to be done much via channelling (at most you'll have CHA 10) - and TBH you would prob want CHA 8.

Full battlefield control + partial tank + companion combat help

Reach Herald Caller of Shub-Niggurath - go Animal/Feather for animal companion and some decent domain spells, Boon Companion + Sacred Summons too. Dreamed Secrets to top up with some Wizard spells. You don't have to max WIS here so you have some points to play with. If you don't want to splash a feat on DS, then worship Erastil and use that Longbow on the back of a Roc.

Full tank + battlefield control + buffer

Vanilla cleric of Sarenrae - heavy armour prof, Sacred summons/normal summons, Glory and Agathion subdomains for buffing summons/allies. Max out WIS.

[Arkham Joker]

rorek55 wrote:

Derklord wrote:

rorek55 wrote:

Having a cleric is a -need- for early play.

No. Absolutely not. There is nothing a Cleric does that you can't do with another class (or a combination of classes).

My point still stands, you need a Cleric, or a cleric look a like. In most cases having a cleric makes things easier for the party.

The cleric is the spine of the party, they don't receive the obvious glory like the Barbarian/Fighter or Wizard, but correctly built it should be the foundation on which 'the body of the party' hangs on.

[Derklord]

Melkiador wrote:

Derklord wrote:

There is nothing a Cleric does that you can't do with another class (or a combination of classes).

That's misleading. You can't do it with just any combination of classes.

It's not misleading, because I didn't say any combination of classes, but rather a combination. And since the statement I responded to wasn't phrased to only apply to this situation, neither was my response. Not that the statement "this party needs a Cleric" would've been better...

Melkiador wrote:

And honestly, every one of those healing combinations usually ends up being less appropriate for what the original poster wants. A dwarven melee fighter who can handle "healing".

The OP never said they wanted to play a character than handles "healing". Despite what old players living in the past who can't get their minds out of the prison of discting party roles may spread, "healing" and "divine full caster" are not synonyms.

Also, Warpiest gets all the same condition removal stuff (albeit later), and HP healing isn't done via spell slots anyway (and the Arcanist and Hunter can use healing wands). And most notably, a Shaman has almost all the condition removal spells of a Cleric (at the same level), and can also channel energy if the player so choses. So what exactly is a Cleric needed for?

rorek55 wrote:

My point still stands, you need a Cleric, or a cleric look a like. In most cases having a cleric makes things easier for the party.

First, you didn't say anything about "cleric look a like", so this is moving the goalposts.
Second, what the hell is a "cleric look a like"? That could describe anything or nothing - which actually makes the statement even worse somehow, because telling people they need something but not what what it actually is they need cannot possibly have a good effect.
And third, do you play to have the easiest way? Do you play to never struggle? Do you play to never have to overcome (in-game) hardships? I sure don't! Overcoming challenges is what the game is all about, and needing to come up with creative solutions is a lot of fun; more fun than always having the perfect class feature to trivialize every difficulty you encounter.
[ooc]Fourth, you say you need a Cleric... and then say a Cleric makes things easier. So what is it, do you need it, or is it only nice to have?

Saying you "need" a Cleric is not only a lie, it's a toxic lie that propagates a culture of forcing players into unwanted choices, thus spreading misery. I'm not exaggerating here, people getting pressured into playing something they don't actually want to play has certainly destroyed more campaigns than not having the perfect spell 15 ingame minutes away.

[Scavion]

The only thing a Cleric provides that is difficult to replace is on time condition removal. A Warpriest can suffice, but often times gets the necessary removal spells too late when they come into play. As an example, a simple Negative Level takes a 10th level Warpriest to cure whereas a Cleric can do it at 7th. Remove Curse? 7th level Warpriest, 5th level Cleric.

My suggestion for this particular party would be an Evangelist Battle Cleric with a reach weapon. You can buy back medium armor proficiency if you really want it and it works as a strong force multiplier for your party.

No party really needs in combat healing so as long as you can do so passably well out of combat, you're fine. A wand > a healing specialist most of the time. Something like the Glory/Heroism domain on top of the Evangelist will ensure your team gets hurt a lot less than a Warpriest or a Healing domain Cleric.

Herald Caller is also a great suggestion since it provides expendable meat shields so your allies get hurt less as well.

[MrCharisma]

Ok, we've had a good robust discussion about what the Cleric can and can't do, but I think we (including myself) have kind-of left the Swiftbrook's request behind. Here's everything they said about what they want:

First Post:

Swiftbrook wrote:

I'm building the front line tank/basher for a party of four starting the Kingmaker AP. We have a Elvin Curve Blade wielding Hunter, Archer (class TBD), and Arcanist. I'm looking at playing a dwarf.

I've been looking at Cleric, Cleric with archetype, War Priest and Paladin. Then I started thinking, would a Cleric X/Fighter 1 be better than all the rest? If I take one level of Fighter as either my first or second level, I'm only one level behind in my full casting (similar to the Oracle), but I get +2 to my Fort save, heavy armor proficiency, tower shield proficiency if I want to use it, a +1 to my BAB and a bonus feat.

So, is a Cleric X/Fighter 1 better than the others?

Second post:

Swiftbrook wrote:

I'm looking at being a full caster. I'm willing to take a one level hit. Since I will be the party's primary divine caster, I'm interested in doing it well. Also, I'm looking at channeling and at some point swift channel so I can still attack every round.

I'm thinking about a hammer of some type for my primary weapon. Hammer and shield or Earth Breaker. I haven't quite looked that far yet. If I can afford it (I doubt it), I'll take a teamwork feat so I can pair up with the Hunter and his pet.

I'm also thinking about taking Weapon Focus as my fighter bonus feat.

So what Swiftbrook wants is to be:

- A Dwarf

- A frontline melee/tank character, preferably using a hammer/earthbreaker

- A divine caster, preferably a 9th level caster

- A channel-capable character (though this could possibly mean "healing"-capable?)

- a team-player, preferably using a teamwork feat with the party Hunter (doesn't need to have any class abilities around Teamwork feats since 2 other characters will already have teamwork feats)

So just going with divine full casters that leaves us with Cleric, Druid, Shaman and Oracle, though it's possible a Warpriest could fill the role. It seems like a Paladin wouldn't have enough casting for your tastes, and most of the other divine classes either lack bonus feats or the spell-list you're looking for (though if someone can work something out with another class that's great).

So people, what's your pitch?

[MrCharisma]

@Swiftbrook: Here's something to consider. If you went with an Earthbreaker you're using one of the easiest, least feat-intensive fighting styles in the game. You basically only need Power Attack and maybe some accuracy boosters.

So if you wanted to be a Cleric with no dips, your feat selection could look something like this:

1. Heavy Armour proficiency

3. Weapon Focus

5. Power Attack

And that's all you really need. If you want more combat power you can look into your spell list, since the Cleric list is full of great buffs.

As an alternative to Weapon Focus you could take Channel Smite and GUIDED HAND. It's 2 feats instead of 1, but it lets you use your main stat for spells and combat. You'll obviously have to find a deity with a weapon you want to use, though the obvious choice there is TORAG.

Then you can find a teamwork feat that suits you, grab QUICK CHANNEL if you want it (though I'm struggling to think when you'd want that without Selective Channeling), and maybe Vital Strike and/or Cleave for the rounds when you channel. At this point you're probably spending more feats than you'd like though, so my advice would be not to worry about quick channel.

If you want a combat style more feat intensive than that it's almost certainly worth dipping Fighter or going Warpriest.

EDIT: I forgot that Clerics aren't proficient with Earthbreakers, so if you're going that way the Fighter dip looks better. It saves you 2 feats (Weapon proficiency and Armour proficiency) and gives you a bonus feat, making the dip seem quite strong really.

[Scavion]

I'll break down some options by what I feel are fun.

Evangelist Cleric

Pros: Full Caster and Inspire Courage will be a massive benefit to your party.

Cons: Delayed channel progression, no medium armor proficiency, and cannot spontaneously cast cure spells(A problem until you can get wands). Needs to dip for cool dwarf weapons.

Herald Caller Cleric

Pros: Full Caster, Summoned Monsters are excellent, and full Channel Energy progression.

Cons: Cannot spontaneously cast cure spells and no medium armor proficiency. Needs to dip for cool dwarf weapons.

Time for some spicy choices

Oath of the People's Council Paladin

Pros: Inspire Courage, Lay on Hands and Mercies are excellent. Ultimate Mercy is an extremely cool feat. Can use all the cool dwarf weapons without a dip like the Dorn-Dergar and Longhammer. Tougher than Adamantine, "Kill the healer first" will never happen.

Cons: Not a full caster. Charisma is penalized as a Dwarf, but not quite as bad since the Oath of the People's Council replaces Smite Evil.

Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest

Pros: A melee monster. Kill your enemies before they can hurt people. Hit hard. Hit accurately. Doesn't give a goblin's ass about Charisma. Has all the cool proficiencies.

Cons: 6th Level Casting means you will get delayed access to some crucial condition removal spells.

[Arkham Joker]

Scavion wrote:

Herald Caller Cleric

Pros: Full Caster, Summoned Monsters are excellent, and full Channel Energy progression.

Cons: Cannot spontaneously cast cure spells and no medium armor proficiency. Needs to dip for cool dwarf weapons.

Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest

Pros: A melee monster. Kill your enemies before they can hurt people. Hit hard. Hit accurately. Doesn't give a goblin's ass about Charisma. Has all the cool proficiencies.

Cons: 6th Level Casting means you will get delayed access to some crucial condition removal spells.

A small point - Herald Caller doesn't lose spont cures.

[Swiftbrook]

First, thanks to everyone for your ideas. It's given me lots to consider.

MrCharisma wrote:

Ok, we've had a good robust discussion about what the Cleric can and can't do, but I think we (including myself) have kind-of left the Swiftbrook's request behind. Here's everything they said about what they want:

So what Swiftbrook wants is to be:

- A Dwarf

YES

Quote:

- A frontline melee/tank character, preferably using a hammer/earthbreaker

YES

Quote:

- A divine caster, preferably a 9th level caster

YES

Quote:

- A channel-capable character (though this could possibly mean "healing"-capable?)

YES Channeling is something I want to try out. I'm not planning on taking many, if any, channeling feats, but I am considering selective channeling.

Quote:

- a team-player, preferably using a teamwork feat with the party Hunter (doesn't need to have any class abilities around Teamwork feats...

Teamwork feats are more of a dream that I've left behind. From what I've read so far, there are much better uses of my feats.

Another thing I have thought about, because everyone seem to say I should take Heavy Armor Proficiency, I was looking at a build without it, just to be different. Kind of like a non-CHA dump dwarf. Now I'm not dropping more than a few points in CHA. I'm looking more at fun with this build. I've never played a cleric before. I still remember the game when my -2 CHA dwarf fighter was the face for the party. Oh what fun!

As for my hammer, it looks like I need a patron such as Torag to get proficiency with the warhammer. Maybe even a large one. Spending an extra feat for weapon proficiency isn't worth it. On the other hand, I've played a character once that used a large light crossbow and took the -2 penalty. Lots of fun.

[Melkiador]

Quote:

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.

[Swiftbrook]

Melkiador wrote:

Quote:

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.

Arrgggggggg too little sleep!

[Arkham Joker]

What you are requiring from your build is just too much IMO and just results in "Generic cleric"... a terrible option.

Keep things simple, don't bother with dipping and achieve virtually all of what you are looking for in a full caster, divine class...

Dual-cursed Oracle with Battle or Metal mystery.

Yes as a Dwarf taking a CHA hit is a pain, but as a battle focussed character, CHA 18 is still pretty good.

[MrCharisma]

Arkham Joker wrote:

What you are requiring from your build is just too much IMO and just results in "Generic cleric"... a terrible option.

Keep things simple, don't bother with dipping and achieve virtually all of what you are looking for in a full caster, divine class...

I disagree. All Swiftbrook is asking for really is a front-line Dwarf Cleric. While it might seem "generic" to you, it's new to someone who hasn't tried it before.

If you use a 2-handed weapon then all you need is Power Attack and to be able to hit. Something like Weapon Finesse and Power Attack should pretty much cover it. No need to dip you have your build covered in 2 or 3 feats and the rest is gravy. If you want to spend a feat on Heavy Armour or Earthbreaker proficiency then the dip starts looking a little better, but you could still manage without it (though if you want both Heavy Armour and an Earthbreaker I'd probably take the dip).

Everything else basically just comes with the Cleric class. Even Channel - just don't dump CHA and you're fine.

Quote:

Dual-cursed Oracle with Battle or Metal mystery.

Yes as a Dwarf taking a CHA hit is a pain, but as a battle focussed character, CHA 18 is still pretty good.

CHA 18 would be good, but a Dwarf Oracle would be starting with 16 CHA at most, and that's either by sinking a rolled 18 into it or spending 17 points to get a sub-par casting stat. You could take the Old age category and start with 18 CHA, but you'd be taking -3 to STR/DEX/CON, which seems pretty bad for a "Front line tank".

Personally I think a Cleric will work fine. I'd probably do something like S-14, D-12, C-14, I-07, W-18, C-12 (20 point buy), then take Guided Hand (Warhammer) ASAP and chuck on Power Attack.

If you wanna go Earthbreaker then take 1 level in Fighter. Take Weapon Focus instead of Guided Hand and drop DEX and CHA a little to raise STR to 16 (since you can't get guided hand with an Earthbreaker).

You won't keep up with a Fighter for damage, but you can stand on the front line and swing with the party. Also you're basically a Wizard, so you can pre-buff to improve your combat prowess.

[Mikemad]

Whenever you're talking cleric optimization, you should ask your DM if retraining is allowed (PFS allows it). Unlike warpriests who gain power really linearly (about +1 attack/damage per level off class features), clerics gain power in huge spikes as their domain/archetype features come online.

For example, trickery domain is sick at levels 1-5 since it's main power comes online at 1, not that many attacks are getting thrown out per round and you don't need your move action to deal full damage since full-attacking isn't a thing. However, afterwards it becomes really lackluster.

Evangelist is sick at level 7+ when activating inspire courage is a move action and you can afford Banner of the Ancient Kings, but it actively hurts your build before then.

However, if you can retrain, you can swap archetypes/domains around as you level to take advantage of whatever is good at the moment. My personal favorite goes something like this:

Start as an Erastilian growth/separatist trickery cleric. At level 5, retrain your archetype down to base cleric, losing trickery domain and grabbing feather domain, take boon companion as your 5th level feat. At level 7-9 (whenever you can afford BotAK), retrain to evangelist, take flagbearer, retrain boon companion to sacred summons, grab banner of the ancient kings. You can now standard-summon a bunch of lantern archons into +5 attack and damage aura.

Otherwise you have to find something which levels well 1-wheneveryourcampaignends.

[rorek55]

Derklord wrote:

rorek55 wrote:

My point still stands, you need a Cleric, or a cleric look a like. In most cases having a cleric makes things easier for the party.

First, you didn't say anything about "cleric look a like", so this is moving the goalposts.
Second, what the hell is a "cleric look a like"? That could describe anything or nothing - which actually makes the statement even worse somehow, because telling people they need something but not what what it actually is they need cannot possibly have a good effect.
And third, do you play to have the easiest way? Do you play to never struggle? Do you play to never have to overcome

...

1. Fair, I worded my initial post poorly, what I meant was a "debuff/negative status removal and plentiful healing" character that can still provide other benefits to the party. Example- An oracle of life is a cleric look a like.

3. I do not enjoy having attribute drain, nor do I enjoy permanent negative levels, or curses. I've seen these thrown at players very often, I've seen both drain and negative levels kill PCs because they had no way to deal with it. Especially in APs where "buying resources to make problems go away" isn't a real option.

3.b Many, Many APs have time limited scenarios, usually in the first book. These scenarios often come with a plethora of encounters, some rather difficult. A few poor rolls can quickly end an "adventuring day" after one without healing.

If you aren't going to 1. Have access to cleric/divine magic for condition removal, or 2. Wish to drop large sums of gold on consumables to deal with said conditions (low HP will function as a condition for this)

How many APs hand the party a "higher level cleric at level 1"? How does removing said NPC effect the group?

If you want to struggle so much, why not play NPC classes? surely the actual classes provide to much in the way of problem solving?

[MrCharisma]

rorek55 wrote:

If you want to struggle so much, why not play NPC classes? surely the actual classes provide to much in the way of problem solving?

I was with you right up till here.

C'mon ... you know better than that.

[rorek55]

MrCharisma wrote:

rorek55 wrote:

If you want to struggle so much, why not play NPC classes? surely the actual classes provide to much in the way of problem solving?

I was with you right up till here.

C'mon ... you know better than that.

You're right, the crafting commoner has way too much power behind it. haha.

[MrCharisma]

rorek55 wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

rorek55 wrote:

If you want to struggle so much, why not play NPC classes? surely the actual classes provide to much in the way of problem solving?

I was with you right up till here.

C'mon ... you know better than that.

You're right, the crafting commoner has way too much power behind it. haha.

Wasn't enough power for me, I had to go Gestalt Commoner/Aristocrat. Now that's power!

[Derklord]

rorek55 wrote:

If you aren't going to 1. Have access to cleric/divine magic for condition removal,

You either have poor knowledge of Pathfinder, or you're denying reality - condition removal is not limited to divine casters, as Witches and Alchemists/Investigators have access to a large number of such spells, and Skalds have access via Spell Kenning. Condition removal spells also show up on a bunch of psychic caster lists, although those are all spontaneous casters.

rorek55 wrote:

Many, Many APs have time limited scenarios, usually in the first book. These scenarios often come with a plethora of encounters, some rather difficult. A few poor rolls can quickly end an "adventuring day" after one without healing.

You either have poor knowledge of Pathfinder, or you're denying reality - Sorcerer,

Wizard, Witch, Arcanist, Bard, Summoner, Magus, Skald, and Spiritualist (plus possibly Occultist, Alchemist, and Investigator) have access to CLW and/or Infernal Healing, despite not being divine casters.

rorek55 wrote:

I do not enjoy (...) curses.

Funny how you use that as an example for why you would need a Cleric, seeing how Remove Curse is aviable (in addition to Cleric) to Bard, Skald, Sorcerer, Wizard, Arcanist, Witch, Alchemist, Investigator, Paladin, Inquisitor, Shaman, Mesmerist, Spiritualist, and Medium. Some of these are spontaneous casters, but so is Oracle, which you seem to consider being just fine for condition removal.

Look, I'm not saving condition removel isn't helpful, or that a party doesn't need healing. But your insistence that it is mandatory to have a Cleric (or Shaman or Oracle) to provide it is objectively wrong, and such claims do pressure people into playing classes they don't actually want to play. I have seen that multiple times.

rorek55 wrote:

If you want to struggle so much, why not play NPC classes?

Appeal to ridicule. *yawns*

Scavion wrote:

The only thing a Cleric provides that is difficult to replace is on time condition removal. A Warpriest can suffice, but often times gets the necessary removal spells too late when they come into play. As an example, a simple Negative Level takes a 10th level Warpriest to cure whereas a Cleric can do it at 7th. Remove Curse? 7th level Warpriest, 5th level Cleric.

A Shaman can cast the spells at the exact same level. A Witch can cast Remove Curse at the same level, and with the healing Patron can cast Restoration just one level later.

[Scavion]

Shaman is fair. Imo, they're just not my cup of tea. A witch would be awkward to stretch into the frontliner role being requested by OP. You also burn spell learned on a niche use. It's sadly a lot more difficult to find witches to add spells than spellbooks.

The Shaman and Cleric have a definite advantage being prepared casters and getting to do very nice things with Scribe Scroll.

[MrCharisma]

Derklord wrote:

You either have poor knowledge of Pathfinder, or you're denying reality ...

Derklord, buddy ... I agree with your points but you gotta soften your approach. I told rorek55 that (s)he can do better than that, and I have to say it to you as well. Try to be polite.

Now, regarding the argument of whether we need a Cleric - we need one ... Swiftbrook said so.

How about another question to get things moving again: What are some good domains for a front-line Cleric?

[Arkham Joker]

Swiftbrook wrote:

I want to be a tank
I'm looking at being a full caster.
I'm willing to take a one level hit.
I will be the party's primary divine caster, I'm interested in doing it well.
I'm looking at channeling and at some point swift channel so I can still attack every round.

I'm thinking about a hammer of some type for my primary weapon. Hammer and shield or Earth Breaker. I haven't quite looked that far yet. If I can afford it (I doubt it), I'll take a teamwork feat so I can pair up with the Hunter and his pet.

I'm also thinking about taking Weapon Focus as my fighter bonus feat.

Sorry to sound harsh but this is clear evidence that you have very little idea how cleric building works

You want to be good at everything on a 9th level chassis

The Cleric is inherently feat starved - your idea requires some significant feat investment and will lead to MADness.

What do you mean by "doing divine casting well"? If all you mean is healing and condition removing then that isn't doing it well! What exactly do you mean?

[Mysterious Stranger]

Another option would be a Crusader Cleric. They give up a domain and one fewer spell of each level for bonus feats every 5 levels. They are still a full 9th level divine caster, they still have channel energy. At 1st level you can get heavy armor proficiency and after that start going for weapon focus and latter greater weapon focus to boost your accuracy. Since dwarves are proficient in Battle Axes, Heavy Picks and Warhammers you don’t really need to be proficient with all martial weapons to be a frontline combatant.

Losing 1 spell of each level sounds worse than it is because you still gain access to those spells earlier because of not losing a casting level due to dipping. At 10th level you will have be 1 spell behind on your 1-4th level spells, but have the same number of 5th and 6th level spells. On a full caster the higher level spells are the important ones. And your spells will be slightly stronger due to having a higher caster level. And more importantly for the most part you will gain earlier access to your higher level spells. As a dwarf your WIS bonus should be giving you bonus spells until you get access to 8th and 9th level spells.

[Arkham Joker]

In my extensive cleric building experience, I have only ever invested slightly in channelling (eg CHA 12) when I have played a Herald Caller, due to their crafty ability to heal all of their summons at an infinite distance with pos.channeling. Once per battle, I would top up the HP tanks of my summons and any allies within the radius.... HOWEVER, I did not invest in either selective channelling or swift channelling. I would also dish out usually 1 channel at the end of the day to top up party HP.

IMO channelling is and always has been complete garbage. I regularly play CHA 8 clerics, and CHA 6-7 is not unheard of!

Wands and to a lesser degree spont converting a few low level spells at the end of the day are usually good enough.

[Swiftbrook]

MrCharisma wrote:

How about another question to get things moving again: What are some good domains for a front-line Cleric?

I'm currently liking Trade and Heroism. My cleric is pursuing an ideal (fair, safe and free trade ???? - still working on that), not a specific deity.

[Swiftbrook]

Arkham Joker wrote:

What do you mean by "doing divine casting well"? If all you mean is healing and condition removing then that isn't doing it well! What exactly do you mean?

I don't know. I've never played a cleric, druid, or oracle. I've seen others play clerics, obviously, but for the most part, they have been healbots. Through playing, I want to dive in and learn more about the class.

I'm really liking Guided Hand. Wow, that's just awesome!

[MrCharisma]

Swiftbrook wrote:

I'm currently liking Trade and Heroism. My cleric is pursuing an ideal (fair, safe and free trade ???? - still working on that), not a specific deity.

I've never played a cleric, druid, or oracle. I've seen others play clerics, obviously, but for the most part, they have been healbots. Through playing, I want to dive in and learn more about the class.

I'm really liking Guided Hand. Wow, that's just awesome!

So.

First up, following an ideal is fine, but you'll have to run your domains by your GM. You don't necessarily get to just pick 2 domains and call it a day, they have to fit the theme you're going for. Trade obviously fits your theme, but Heroism might be a harder sell.

Second. If you want to worship an ideal then you can't take Guided Hand. Obviously your GM might let you, but the feat requires "proficiency with your deity’s favored weapon". If you don't have a deity you can't fulfil this prerequisite.

Third. Do you need Guided Hand? So for your spells the main reasons to increase your WIS modifier into the stratosphere is to increase your spells'saving throw DCs. If you're going to be casting offensive spells with saving throws (most offensive spells) then you want a high high WIS, but if you're mostly going for buffing, utility and healing then you don't. If you just want to be a melee fighter who buffs the party then you can safely be a 17th level Cleric with only 19 WIS, but if you actually want to land some save-or-suck spells then I'd max out that WIS (start with 18, put all your increases here and invest in a Headband of WIS). The only reasonable way I can think of to do this and still have vaguely viable combat rolls is Guided Hand. You can go something like S-14, D-12, C-14, I-07, W-18, C-12. If you decide there's enough offensive casting power in the party already you could skip Guided Hand and instead go something like S-17, D-12, C-14, I-07, W-14, C-12. Note that I dumped INT for both builds, since you are spreading yourself a bit thin (casting, channeling and melee combat).

Now, to the class. Clerics have a fairly incredible spell list. It's mostly buffing and utility at low levels, but gets more versatile quickly. Because you know EVERY Cleric spell your only limit is your knowledge of the spell list, so study up. You also CAN leave spell-slots open and prepare them during the day, though this takes time (minimum 15 minutes), which is great for utility spells. To cut down on decision time during game-sessions I would have a few pre-prepared spell lists: 1 for combat heavy days, 1 for exploration days, 1 for social days, etc. Whatever you think you'll spend time doing, plan for that (you'll likely make a few new lists as the game progresses). Also, make a list of useful utility spells that you might use for unusual circumstances (eg. FLOTSAM VESSEL for getting the party across a river/lake/etc. You mostly won't need it but it's good to have in your back pocket).

Lastly, for combat you likely won't keep up with the front-line characters with feats alone. Remember that you're a caster with an extremely potent spell list and put it to use. Divine Favour is a great early self-buffing spell to get yourself into the fray, but group buffs like Prayer might be more impactful even though your personal buff is smaller. If you plan on wading into combat I also wouldn't spend more than 2 rounds of buffing once the combat starts (try to limit it to 1). Sure you could spend 4 rounds buffing yourself into some kind of goliath, but by then the fight could be over. 1 big spell before wading into combat should be your main strategy if you want to contribute with your hammer, though obviously you might adapt your tactics to suit a particular enemy.

[Melkiador]

Meh. I’ve played a few clerics and it’s one of the more forgiving full casters. If you do nothing more than slap on armor and take some hits while healing damage and status, then you’ll be contributing alright. Sure, you could focus and do more, but there are very few true traps in cleric. All you have to do is change your spells around as you level and have different needs.

Crusader archetype is also typically considered suboptimal but really, I think it compares fairly well to taking a fighter dip. Either way you might eventually lose a level of spell progression. But with crusader everything else keeps progressing for the cleric, like caster level and channeling.

[Melkiador]

Btw, healing with channel is pretty great at low level, but to keep it relevant, you are going to have to distribute damage with the shield other spell. For that reason, constitution is a pretty big stat for a channeling cleric.

[Mysterious Stranger]

One thing to keep in mind is that while the cleric class can do a lot of things well does not mean an individual cleric can do them all well. Typically to do something well requires an investment of stats and feats. Since these are limited resources that means you can’t invest in everything. Most Pathfinder games use a point buy so that in order to have a high stat you need to put points into it, which means you can’t put them into the other stats. This leads to a more balanced party because everyone is on the same power level. When you roll for stats you often get someone with incredible stats and someone else with garbage.

All characters need CON for survivability. As a frontline fighter you also need a good score in STR. You Having at least some DEX bonus boost your AC and reflex saves. At minimum you need at least a 10 DEX, 12 or 13 would be better and may be needed for some feats. As a cleric WIS is going to be important so that is going to need to be decent. If you are focusing on offensive casting that needs to be as high as you can get it. Channel energy is based on CHA so if you tank that you are limiting your channel energy. As a dwarf you already have a penalty to CHA so probably need to invest at least 2 points to avoid a penalty. That leave only INT as a dump stat. Clerics don’t get many skills so if you dump INT you are even more useless out of combat.

What level are you starting at? If you are starting at 1st level and your build is dependent on specific feats it may take a while to come online. Neither dwarves not clerics get bonus feats so feat like Guided Hand will not come into play until you reach a higher level. Are you prepared to be week in those area’s until your build comes online. If you are focusing on offensive spells and still want to be in the frontline then Combat Casting is probably a good first feat. That is going to mean that you have fewer feats for combat.

While the cleric spell list can is incredibly diverse it is a good idea to figure out what types of spells your character is going to focus on. By doing this first you can prioritize your resources. Like MrCharisma mentioned an offensive caster is going to need to pump the DC of their saves or their spells will not be as effective. An offensive caster will probably also want to invest some feats to boost the power and versatility of his spells. A defensive and support caster can as Mr Charima said get by on the minimum WIS to cast their spells.

Before you get into the details of your build it would be a good idea to prioritize your aspects. It seems like you have 3 aspects you are focusing on. The 3 aspects I see are a frontline melee combatant, a full 9th level caster, channeling energy. List those in order of importance and work from there. You already stated you are not focusing on the channel energy so that would make it the third of the list. So what you need to do is to figure out what is the first and second thing on the list.

The last thing I want to add is that you don’t have to be the best in every aspect. You don’t need to be able to match the barbarian or paladin in melee to be a frontline combatant. As long as you can contribute in a meaningful way to the combat that is good enough.

[Sysryke]

Certain seeming trolls (A.J.?) aside, you've gotten a lot of very decent advice on this thread. Even those who have been arguing with one and other have added good points.

I think in all the shuffle though, and few details may have gotten lost.

One of the very first things you said is that you want to be a "tank". Can you please share with us what you mean by that term? Folks view "tank" in different ways. From the other three characters in your party, it seems like damage is covered. I don't know about those players builds, but it would seem the Hunter covers melee, the archer is ranged, and the Arcanist is likely to be the more offensive caster. Not that you can't also contribute in these areas; but are you wanting to compete with the damage dealers, or when you say "tank" do you mean the guy who draws attacks, shields allies, and/or doesn't go down? If the former is the case, then you probably don't need to worry about investing in your offense too hard. Dwarven proficiency in the war hammer has you covered.

Also, how optimized is your group? Are you all really good number crunchers, or do you play a little more casually? Basically, we need to know what type of numbers you're shooting for. Also, point buy, or rolled stats?

I don't know too much about Kingmaker. Played briefly in it years ago, but I didn't even know it was an AP then. Thought it was just a format. Anyway, can folks offer advice specifically pertinent to that AP without going into spoilers?

Too your original post: I think you can easily accomplish your stated goals for the character. An optimized or differently flavored Cleric can be complicated, but the "classic/vanilla/generic" Cleric works just fine, healbot or not. There can be great fun had in playing a mechanically classic/traditional/cliche class and making it your own. I think I might lean towards staying pure Cleric, and dabbling with archetypes if there's something you really want to trade out. Your Con bonus as a Dwarf helps to offset the fort save issue, so unless you're really dead set on a specific set of feats at early levels, most of what you considered from Fighter can be handled through good spell selection. Whatever you choose, as always have fun.

[Melkiador]

Cleric is one of the better tanks, really. Built in threat generation from healing. If the enemies choose to ignore you, then you just heal your allies. Either way you are keeping them safe.

If you aren’t offensively casting you don’t need to start off with a huge wisdom, 15 wisdom, increased to 17 by dwarf would be fine.

It would really help to know about your stat generation though. Heal tanking is stat intensive. You really need them all, except intelligence.

If you want to channel in combat, you will need selective channel. So you need at least 15 in charisma to be reduced to 13 from dwarf. Raise that to 14 at level 4 and you shouldn’t need to invest in charisma more than that.