Is a Battle Cleric Better?

[Swiftbrook]

I’ve been talking to my GM about options other than going the Channel Smite to Guided Hand build route.

We looked at the Guided weapon enhancement, a +1 enhancement that gives you both Wisdom bonus to hit as well as damage. When compared to other +1 enhancement such as Agile (dex bonus to hit only), he said the Guided enhancement was over powered.

Then we looked at the Channel Smite to Guided Hand feat chain. I pointed out that the Erastil’s Blessing (combat) feat allows you to use your Wisdom bonus instead of your Dexterity bonus on ranged attacks when using a bow. The prerequisite feat is Weapon Focus (longbow). I suggested we could change the prerequisite Channel Smite feat to Weapon Focus (deity’s favored weapon). He liked it and agreed.

So I have a clearer path going forward.

[Thunderlord]

My concern with Guided Hand is the damage. You still can't get wisdom to damage as that feat is locked behind the mythic system for some god forsaken reason. This coupled with the time it takes to grab the feat makes me worry even more for the viability of the setup. Your first level dwarven cleric can't get guided hand even with your GM approval unless he takes an archetype that grants bonus feats like Crusader. This means that you probably have some points put into strength for previously mentioned reasons such as gaining power attack and doing damage as well as some more overlooked benefits like being able to carry more things (though dwarves need not worry anyways).

Having read through the thread, I was surprised that no other classes have been suggested as options for dipping. Unless you were going to get real creative with your fighter bonus feat or archetypes, a Gendarme Cavalier gets you your armor, weapon profs and a bonus feat and a horse to boot. This option would delay guided hand to third level if you were going to take it at all. The horse would be particularly useful for kingmaker and lets you keep up with the rest of the party. Moreover, even though your hammer will be your primary weapon, a lance charge is a pretty solid way to start an encounter. You could just get a horse and lance without the dip but I think its better than fighter.

Other options include Sohei Monk (unchained if allowed), Armored Hulk Barbarian, and even Ranger though these aren't as powerful. One way you can balance being a full-casting front-liner is through spell selection. If you avoid save or suck and focus on recovery or non-save spells then you can afford to put more focus into strength.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The Gendarme Cavalier bonus feat is extremely limited and focuses on mounted combat. The horse will not advance unless the domain the character picks gives him an animal companion. From what the OP has posted it looks like he wants to go the traditional dwarf cleric. Dwarves are not really known for mounted combat so that does not fit that well.

The Sohei Monk Does not give him much for a single level dip except martial weapon proficiencies. He is already getting the weapon proficiencies he needs by being a dwarf. If the GM does not allow the unchained monk to take the archetype it makes him worse as a frontline fighter because of lack of BAB.

The Armored Hulk Barbarian would be a decent alternative to a fighter dip. But has some downsides the biggest is that he is probably only going to have 6 rounds of rage. This means it is pretty much a once per day short term buff. Second is that he now has to deal with barbarians sudden death syndrome. The extra 2 HP per level are great until he gets knocked out and dies from losing the CON.

Ranger actually offers the best alternative to a fighter. Rangers get 6 skill point per level and more importantly a lot of useful class skills. This would allow the character to spread out the few skill points he gets as a cleric and still have a decent bonus on more than a few skills. With a high WIS that means he can afford to put fewer points into more skills and still be useful. Heal, Perception, sense Motive, and survival will all probably be fairly useful for the character. Favored Enemy Human will also give him a bonus on some of those same skill vs humans. Ranger will also give him a bonus to Reflex save in addition to Fortitude saves.

I still think that it would be better to avoid the dip, but Thunderlord is right there are alternatives to fighter.

I have not played Kingmaker so I don’t know how tough combat is going to be. The best way to be good in combat is to be able to quickly put down your opponents. To do this you need to be able to do two thing. The first is to be able to hit you opponents, the second is to be able to do enough damage to put them down. Focusing on only one of these things is going to make a weak combatant. If you are going up against stuff you routinely missing due to a high AC than taking guided hand may make sense but in that caser you are probably not going to be using power attack so better have a way of adding a lot of damage. Replacing channel smite makes guided had a little better, but it also means you have a very high chance to hit and do little damage so is again falling into the trap of a weak combatant.

[MrCharisma]

Swiftbrook wrote:

We looked at the Guided weapon enhancement, a +1 enhancement that gives you both Wisdom bonus to hit as well as damage. When compared to other +1 enhancement such as Agile (dex bonus to hit only), he said the Guided enhancement was over powered.

Just a note: The AGILE weapon property gives you DEX-to-damge, not DEX-to-hit. You need Weapon Finesse to take advantage of it.

You could talk to your GM a lut letting a Guided Weapon do the same. Use Guided Hand to get WIS-to-hit, and a Guided Weapon to get WIS-to-damage. It'sd be a house rule, but it sounds like your GM is willing to house rule a bit for this anyway.

Thunderlord wrote:

My concern with Guided Hand is the damage. You still can't get wisdom to damage as that feat is locked behind the mythic system for some god forsaken reason. This coupled with the time it takes to grab the feat makes me worry even more for the viability of the setup. Your first level dwarven cleric can't get guided hand even with your GM approval unless he takes an archetype that grants bonus feats like Crusader. This means that you probably have some points put into strength for previously mentioned reasons such as gaining power attack and doing damage as well as some more overlooked benefits like being able to carry more things (though dwarves need not worry anyways).

I really don't understand why people are so worried about this.

You can get Guided Hand by level 3 as a Dwarf. You'll be fine until then.

The damage difference between 14 STR and 26 STR is 6-9 per hit (1 or 2-handed weapon). It's not where your main damage numbers are going to come from anyway.

There are 2 pther things to remember:

1. You're a 9th level caster, so you can use spells to buff yourself. Yes you can use them to buff others, but maybe you WANT to buff yourself. Any group buffs will be more powerful since you have 1 extra weapon on the field.

2. Kingmaker isn't exactly known for it's difficulty. The level of optimization being espoused here is WAY higher than what's needed for this AP. Guided Hand plus Power Attack actually will give you the tools to deal with everything you come across in this AP (remember, one of those tools is offensive spells).

I do think Scavion's idea of starting with higher STR but then prioritising WIS has some merit though, but I haven't had the time or inclination to look deeply into it at the moment.

[Scavion]

Swiftbrook wrote:

I suggested we could change the prerequisite Channel Smite feat to Weapon Focus (deity’s favored weapon). He liked it and agreed.

That's a big quality of life change and worth it tbh.

The start strength higher but still prioritize Wisdom also makes better use of all the Strength bonus spells Clerics get like Righteous Might and Bull's Strength.

I'll 100% concede that if all you need is Weapon Focus instead of Channel Smite, Guided Hand sounds like a great option now.

[Mark Hoover 330]

@Mr C: come on, you know why people get hung up on the lack of damage bonus from Guided Hand. Its because many players can't have their characters simply meet the damage benchmarks to contribute to combat; they have to obliterate them.

A vanilla dwarf cleric at level 3 with Guided Hand, a starting 14 Str and 16 Wis, and finally through WBL now has a Warhammer +1 has the following melee attack:

+1 Warhammer +6 (1d8 +3)

The average monster at CR 3 has a 15 AC and 30 HP, requiring the cleric to need at least a +5 or better to hit and deal 7.5 damage in a full attack round. The vanilla dwarf cleric is right at the bubble for both of these benchmarks.

As the character levels from here, so long as it keeps up with a melee focus and the player learns to use spells well to ensure their character is buffed for melee combat, they will continue to be meeting or slightly exceeding those benchmarks by level. Even at level 20, when the cleric needs to hit an AC of 36 and deal 92.5 damage in a full attack round, a combination of feats, BAB and WBL gets them nearly all the way there, with spells needing to make up roughly a 7.5 damage deficit

And that's JUST if the vanilla dwarf cleric, focused on melee attacks, didn't use their 8th and 9th level spells to end a combat.

But for some players, those who have an issue with Guided Hand not providing Wis to damage, hitting these benchmarks is not enough. The vanilla cleric is somehow a less than or a "trap" class option b/c by level 3 a similarly built Warpriest would have a better attack and damage bonus with the same weapon, same feats, and might even be better at melee with different feat choices, for example.

If MOAR DAMAGE is the player's priority, then a cleric with Guided Hand and similar melee focused choices will not be satisfactory. If you're ok with hitting the benchmarks laid out by the Monster Creation rules and averages, this build works. It is that simple.

[Tonya Woldridge]

Removed a number of personally harassing posts and the subsequent quoting chains. Name-calling, speculating a person's intelligence level or engagement on a subject are all inappropriate and will result in moderation. Let's keep it a friendly discussion, please.