If the encounters are too much for them a simple solution is just try to weak the monsters maybe even the hazards or just up them (but if you plan to play until level 20, up the players will make you to review the opponents in the last level anyway.
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Monsters tend to be built with a lot fewer options than players can have, but their fundamental math for how well they throw Strikes is generally quite strong. PCs running up to monsters and standing still next to them and swinging is often not a great idea.
Making enemies that don't attack at range come to you tends to give you the advantage up front, instead of running up to them. After that, spending at least one action on defending yourself, or moving, or helping an ally or debuffing an enemy or forcing an enemy to expend actions that aren't attacking you or really anything besides attacking is usually a better idea for most PCs.
Now, as for whether enemies should always be higher level than PCs? That's a no. Fights with groups of lower level enemies should also be a part of adventure design. Level means a lot here. The theoretical outcome is that PCs being up against an equal level of creatures equal to their level actually should mean an extremely dangerous encounter where it's a 50-50 that any of them survive. Reality doesn't match the theoretical guidelines perfectly, but a lot of the time it does work out pretty close, in this system. Any creature higher level than the PCs is extremely dangerous (and this is a big shift from the previous system, where well built characters could easily manhandle creatures that were supposedly over their level).
There is not any way to increase spell DC, aside from attribute modifiers and proficiency. Using a spell that targets a creature's lowest save can be a significant difference. While bon mot is a great option for lowering will DC, specifically, there are other options. Some conditions, like Frightened and Sickened can be inflicted in a lot of ways and decrease ALL of the target's modifiers and DCs. Anything that inflicts Clumsy helps to land Reflex spells (for example, of the druid had Tempest Surge).
The Aid action can also benefit just about any roll with an appropriate method of Aiding, including spell attacks. (This could become very important if the swashbuckler were the type to use One For All, effectively giving themselves a way to aid that works for anything, even without needing to be in the right place at the right time).
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If they aren't inflicting any kind of conditions, even just not ending their turn next to higher level creatures whose 3rd attack is worth being concerned with can help a lot. Being a bit more focus into eating their actions (like Tripping them and also not ending the turn in their reach, for a common example available to most party compositions) is the sort of thing that makes the most of having the advantage in numbers.
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@Plantice
The "problem" that many people have with PF2 is that the deliberately set balance and game mechanics create a meta that is rather new (as far as conventional "heroic" RPGs go) and I would also say not very intuitive. I would not necessarily call it just being more difficult but in contrast to comparable games you have to work a little harder for your money in PF2. And one real problem that I can see with this setup is the simple fact that neither GM nor players are probably very well prepared for this paradigm shift.
Once you and your party have realized that by design even on-level opponents often have higher rates of success than our heroes (melee enemies often hit with fighter accuracy or better and caster enemies mostly have higher DCs than the player spellcasters) and you have understood the encounter building mechanics you can now start playing accordingly.
So what can you do to best on-level or better opponents?
1) Manipulate the math to your best ability (which usually heavily includes teamwork)
Best done by buffing, debuffing and applying conditions. For example the freightened condition applies a malus for almost every statistic and will shift probabilites by at least one level. Flanking or Tripping applies Fla-Footed etc.
2) Avoid the stats war - embrace the action war
As explaned above any on-level opponent usually has better (relevant) stats than any player and as such each of his actions is worth more than any player action. However these opponents usually gobble up a lot of the available encounter budget, which may bring the battle ahead down to fighting even a single opponent (boss). In this case however a party of 4 heroes has 12 action a turn versus your opponents 3. The logical conclusion for this extreme example therefore is *not* to trade actions for "slugging it out" as you will lose that trade nearly 100% of the time. Due to the statistics advantage you will most often not even be able to out-trade an on level opponent, so dont ever try this with a boss level creature.
For example consider a party of 4 containing a Fighter and a Wizard fighting a level+3 opponent. The Fighter opens up with a Strike, followed by a Step away from the monster and finally raises his shield. The Wizard casts Slow (which the moster saves against, but not critically) followed up by a Sudden Bolt. Now it is the monsters turn, which starts losing one action because of the Slow. It then needs to either follow the Fighter or turn its attention to the Wizard (or any other party member in range). However doing either leaves it with a total of *one* attack this round and even if it is a powerful attack with a high chance of hitting and/or critting it is just one attack. And we have not even accounted for the actions of the remaining 2 players.
PF2 unfortunately is a bit meta-gamey in that the fewer opponents usually the higher the level and you simply need to adjust play accordingly. However the reverse is also true, the more enemies usually the lower their level. Which means that if faced with just two opponents using an AoE spell might not be especially effective because they probably are level+1 or level+2 with respective high chances of making the save. On the other hand if faced with like 6 or even 8 opponents never hesitate to use AoE as the effects will usually be devastating.
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Abomination vaults is a mega dungeon crawl with no real push to force players to face multiple encounters in a day. I think the book expects a more methodical style of play, and a willingness to retreat, research and take as long as is necessary to plan your next big move in the dungeon.
However, a lot of players don’t play that way and opening doors when you are not ready can be dangerous. One bad idea to get stuck on is the idea that there is a right way to play, or an official RAW way to approach APs. Every table is different and having fun with the game is going to look different from group to group. That said, PF2 encounters can be very challenging if the monsters get act with perfect knowledge of the encounter, their enemies and what are efficient actions to take. This is different from past versions of the game, so optimize enemy actions with extreme caution. Encounters can be a lot more fun when creatures have goals like capturing a PC alive, or pushing them off a cliff, and prioritize those goals over killing everyone.
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My party is just about to finish abomination vaults (book 1) but we are having massive troubles with the combat. We are all new to the game (coming from 5e) except for me and I have only 2 books of Age of Ashes under me. To make them stronger, I am using the free archetype rule.
Party is:
Swashbuckler/acrobatic - tank
Druid/fighter - off tank/healer (medicine & good berries)
Wizard/cleric - dps/support
Rogue/ranger - dps/skill
Several people here have already given the same advice that I would have. Spend actions hampering enemies and protecting yourselves rather than focusing solely on dealing damage. I won't go into it more than that.
One thing that I would add is regarding class choices. I don't think that there is anything wrong with the classes that the players have. Personally I feel that any class and party composition can work just fine. Some are easier than others, but these ones don't look like one of the overly challenging ones.
My notes on it:
A Swashbuckler wouldn't be a full tank. An off-tank would be a better description. Also, even a full tank can't stand toe-to-toe with enemies for very long. The Druid/fighter and Rogue/ranger are going to need to step up to the front line and give the Swashbuckler a round or two of reprieve.
And the Druid probably can't be much of a tank while in Wild Shape. Shield block doesn't work at that point. Also while in Wild Shape, they have lost all during-combat healing. It might be a better idea for a boss fight to have the Druid stay in regular form and fight sword-and-board or with spells - including Heal. Use Wild Shape for when there are higher numbers of lower level enemies to deal with.
The Rogue won't be much of a hit-taker normally. With Ranger archetype the 8 HP per level can be increased. There is a Ranger Archetype feat for that. That will help with when the Rogue has to take its turn drawing ire from foes.
So what you have is three skirmishers and a mage or two skirmishers and two mages, depending on what role the Druid takes. The party tactics should definitely focus on making the enemies come to them, hampering the enemies, and rotating through who in the party is drawing fire.
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All the above mechanics help.
In Abom Vaults once I saw how it was set up, I advanced the characters a level earlier than the module recommends. That one level has made the game run smoother for Abom Vaults. Hard to do when first starting, but I recommend the 1 level faster advancement for the 3rd and 4th level of the first module and the rest of the levels in the other two.
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As others have noted: those tanks aren't tanks. It takes more than being a martial with good defenses to tank in PF2. That's just the basics to enter melee at all (w/o leaving immediately that is) and a max-level Wild Shape barely qualifies.
The funny thing is how predictable this is since as soon as I read "our party's getting stomped", my expectation from experience reading these comments is that players think any martial can be a tank. It's dangerous thinking, a holdover from less tactical RPGs, including PF1.
Tanks kinda need to be a Champion, shield Fighter, or defensive-build Monk. Bastion or Sentinel Dedications can catch a different martial class up though. The other martials, including assumed frontliners like Barbarians, need to consider skirmishing, even if it's just to step away. One of the developers asserted that a Step made for better defense than Raising a Shield (though I do wish he'd shared his reasoning).
Note that this insight applies to published materials which tend to be tough, not PFS scenarios which are in the middle or home games which can be tuned. Some of the later published material has toned downed the danger, yet is still dangerous enough to be wary.
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Frightened and Sickened conditions debuff basically all stats: saves, DC's, AC, etc.
My party is just about to finish abomination vaults (book 1) but we are having massive troubles with the combat. We are all new to the game (coming from 5e) except for me and I have only 2 books of Age of Ashes under me. To make them stronger, I am using the free archetype rule.
Party is:
Swashbuckler/acrobatic - tank
Druid/fighter - off tank/healer (medicine & good berries)
Wizard/cleric - dps/support
Rogue/ranger - dps/skillIn combat, I feel like they are doing the right things. Druid is wildshaping and helping flank. Swashbuckler is tumbling to get into flanking position. Rogue is getting into flanking and sneak attacking. Wizard tries to get a clear line of sight or he uses illusions/magic missile. Monsters are attacking (up to 3 times, not sure if this recommended) or using special abilities.
My players feel like they are constantly getting beat to crap and are struggling to kill the monsters in a timely manner. On top of that, almost all of the monsters on the last few levels are higher level then them. So they have less of a chance to hit, get hit more, and the wizard is struggling to get anything to land.
I have heard this module is well balanced and fun, and most of the players love the setting but combat is making people want to quit. Can anyone help me solve this?
I'm still going through it with my party. Only level 2 and 4 sessions in. Not having any problems but the combat is very swingy. 6 players all very experienced gamers, but only one has played PF2 before. Free archetype as well
Elven Rogue - thief/medic
Gnome Bard - mostly just bagpipes buffing, Soothe, and Telekinentic projectile
Dwarf Champion of Sarenrae - effective reaction, but initiative and movement speed are slowing down his damage output.
Elven Rune Witch/Rogue - magic weapon/bow, electric arc, recall knowledge and a flying pig familiar scout
Human Swashbuckler braggart/acrobat
HalfOrc Barbarian - giant/dual weapon warrior
The players are working out the system themselves, with me deliberately trying to avoid helping unless asked (I helped build the witch)
They struggle a bit with targets that are immune to precision damage. I've been adding 50% more monsters to keep it balanced. But with 6 players I'm so busy moving it along that sometimes I forget a few of the monsters special abilities. So far only the pig has died (to the vampiric mist). Everyone is happy for now.
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I'm not entirely sure what your stats/builds specifics are, and this might seem a little shameless, but I genuinely believe this guide I wrote might be useful. It talks about the bare minimum optimization expectations of the system.
Is there anyway to increase the spell DC or lower the save dc of a monster, so a caster can land spells more often? I know of bon mot, but that doesn't work unless you have a common language.Monsters tend to be built with a lot fewer options than players can have, but their fundamental math for how well they throw Strikes is generally quite strong. PCs running up to monsters and standing still next to them and swinging is often not a great idea.
Making enemies that don't attack at range come to you tends to give you the advantage up front, instead of running up to them. After that, spending at least one action on defending yourself, or moving, or helping an ally or debuffing an enemy or forcing an enemy to expend actions that aren't attacking you or really anything besides attacking is usually a better idea for most PCs.
The Frightened condition will lower an enemy's save dc. It will also make them more susceptible to your own spells.
'You’re gripped by fear and struggle to control your nerves. The frightened condition always includes a value. You take a status penalty equal to this value to all your checks and DCs. Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases by 1.'
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If the encounters are too much for them a simple solution is just try to weak the monsters maybe even the hazards or just up them (but if you plan to play until level 20, up the players will make you to review the opponents in the last level anyway.That was my first thought but since we were new, we want to stick to Raw to get the "normal experience". Are the fights supposed to be that hard/enemies always higher level? PCs run up to the enemy and then both side are just duking it out. Is that expected behavior?
Reducing difficulty with templates is still RAW (per the Core rulebook and Bestiary 1). It's not the same as running the adventure as written, but you're not breaking any rules of the game with an easier experience by applying Weak templates. In fact, those are literally included in the rules of the game.
People gave some great advice in this thread, but just to set expectations: even if they play well your players are going to get beat up sometimes, that's how PF2 works in anything above Moderate encounters. It's not "easy" like DND 5E or PF1E with an optimized party. It's more like a traditional adventure story where the characters get smacked around, rather than a DOOM-like experience where you just trounce everything. They shouldn't have TPKs or regular character deaths, but a character going down isn't unusual. If your players want to win handily, that's fine and is 100% supported by the rules. Just make sure the encounters are "Low" difficulty, or at most Moderate - problem solved.
Here's some relevant rules:
Building Encounters (adjust your average encounter difficulty to a level that better fits what your party is looking for ) - http://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=497
Adjusting difficulty (for skill checks) - http://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=555
Creating dynamic encounters - http://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=978. This one is pretty important and even the published APs sometimes don't follow these guidelines sometimes. Tweak as necessary for a better experience.
How are they using their action economy?
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How are they using their action economy?
Yeah OP describes it as:
"PCs run up to the enemy and then both side are just duking it out. Is that expected behavior?"That was why I linked to the thread about optimizing 3 action. That video and the video about AOO could change the players perspective on combat in 2e.
That video is very helpful.
Lots of things immune to precision damage, my swash for AV is level 7 right now and I go from being useless to being amazing/on par with our fighter, depending on what we are fighting and if I can get panache. Nothing beats killing a creature on a miss.
You have a rather squishy group, one 10 hp/level character, two 8's and a 6. None of them with defensive reactions, one who gives up in combat healing for near martial effectiveness, two with specific requirements to even do ok levels of damage that will often (in specific spots) be ignored by enemy type.
Fighter isn't really doing anything for a druid as almost all fighter attacks require weapons and so don't work while shape shifted.
Cleric isn't terrible for wizard, get some anti undead and anti evil cantrips, get bless and protection type spells, things that don't require dice rolls.
So you have several flaws in the group composition to deal with. You may want to invest in reach weapons and trying to kite or funnel enemies into choke points so you can 2 or 3 on one enemies. Someone should make sure to have high athletics and trip to help the rogue sneak attack, this will be even better when you can start picking up AoO and similar reactions.
An easier solution to try on your end is give them more exp for fights to get them a level ahead of where they should be and keep that difference going. Also add some healing potions or scrolls to the loot they find so the wizard of druid can get some in combat heals going.
My group is a paladin, fighter, cleric, rogue and swash. We've lost one fight(got captured and escaped) and nearly went down 2 or 3 other times, so it may just be a really up hill battle for you. Hit and run, divide and conquer or similar things might work best for the group but might not be so enjoyable.
The precision damage not being useful in AV Book 1 was more than usual. Seems to have become more useful in books 2 and 3.