Plantice's page

I just wanted to thank everyone that has posted so far, you have given me alot to think about and it seems like we haven't fully gotten our heads around the shift of the combat mechanics. I'll bring this to the group and see how it goes. Thanks again, and if anyone has more advice I am open to it.

@Plantice

The "problem" that many people have with PF2 is that the deliberately set balance and game mechanics create a meta that is rather new (as far as conventional "heroic" RPGs go) and I would also say not very intuitive. I would not necessarily call it just being more difficult but in contrast to comparable games you have to work a little harder for your money in PF2. And one real problem that I can see with this setup is the simple fact that neither GM nor players are probably very well prepared for this paradigm shift.

Once you and your party have realized that by design even on-level opponents often have higher rates of success than our heroes (melee enemies often hit with fighter accuracy or better and caster enemies mostly have higher DCs than the player spellcasters) and you have understood the encounter building mechanics you can now start playing accordingly.

So what can you do to best on-level or better opponents?

1) Manipulate the math to your best ability (which usually heavily includes teamwork)

Best done by buffing, debuffing and applying conditions. For example the freightened condition applies a malus for almost every statistic and will shift probabilites by at least one level. Flanking or Tripping applies Fla-Footed etc.

2) Avoid the stats war - embrace the action war

As explaned above any on-level opponent usually has better (relevant) stats than any player and as such each of his actions is worth more than any player action. However these opponents usually gobble up a lot of the available encounter budget, which may bring the battle ahead down to fighting even a single opponent (boss). In this case however a party of 4 heroes has 12 action a turn versus your opponents 3. The logical conclusion for this extreme example therefore is *not* to trade actions for "slugging it out" as you will lose that trade nearly 100% of the time. Due to the statistics advantage you will most often not even be able to out-trade an on level opponent, so dont ever try this...

This is good advice, thanks. I think my party and I were all assuming that enemies would be on the same level but it seems thats not normally the case. I'll read up more about this but I do agree that we can't win stat wise, so we need to focus more on reducing actions of the enemy.

Though there's no need for pushing forward encounter after encounter... the party seems a little messy.

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Swashbuckler/acrobatic - tank

Not sure that the swashbuckler has something meant to help him tanking until lvl 8 ( vivacious bravado ) and lvl 10 ( +2 ac stance ). Knowing that using bravado by lvl 8 would result in 2 less AC ( lack of actions ) so it would be always better to get +2 AC.

It's a normal combatant with 10hp/lvl and, eventually, a shield.

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Druid/fighter - off tank/healer (medicine & good berries)

A druid won't be able to benefit from a sturdy shield, so no shield block.

Also, healings would trigger AoO, so it would be clownfiesta for the enemy team.

Though it may be a flavor thing, I see no tactical reason for this one.

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Wizard/cleric - dps/support

Abjuration spells may help, but the cleric dedication won't do a single thing, since it will give limited spells when they are already obsolete ( heal 8+1d8 by lvl 4 would be more or less a joke. A battle medicine with a + 11/13 on the check would result better in terms of heals and action management ).

Controlling and dealing aoe damage would do the thing though

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Rogue/ranger - dps/skill

I am not sure about his.

Going for prey on each single enemy and twin takedown rather and twin feint? Or is there rogue supposed to stay ranged and because so unable to get the flat footed bonus required for his sneak attack?

I don't know, before weakening the enemies I'd consider talk to the party making them understand a little better how this 2e is different from what they played:

- Teamwork ( flat footed bonuses, debuffing the enemies, combat maneuvers )
- Some out of combat healing as well as strong healings for the combat ( swapping druid to cleric would probably help, because they'd be able to rely on different healing spells ).
- Tank stuff ( Shield raise, Shield block, Reactions, etc... )

If I were to begin with new players, I'd give them a...

SB is has a +2 to AC ability and the movement/skills to get into range (focusing on tumble)

druid is wildshaping 90% of the time, using heals out of combat or in emergencies.

rogue took ranger for multi-attack abilities

Wizard took cleric for scrolls making abilities and for oh crap moments.

If they aren't inflicting any kind of conditions, even just not ending their turn next to higher level creatures whose 3rd attack is worth being concerned with can help a lot. Being a bit more focus into eating their actions (like Tripping them and also not ending the turn in their reach, for a common example available to most party compositions) is the sort of thing that makes the most of having the advantage in numbers.

I'll suggest trip, there was some misconceptions about it at the table yesterday and I have looked it up in more detail.

My players are going through it now and one thing I can say is they rarely have done a straight up fight. Most fights let you use the doors for bottle necking or splitting opponents, outright just going "nope not going to deal with that right now" or being able to use diplomacy instead.

Bottlenecking isn't the issue so much as the tight coridoors as I have 3 melee people. Alot of rooms are 2x2 or 2x3, that doesn't give a whole lot of space. My players also don't run from a fight unless it looks like they will lose it, which after lv 3 they have the tools to get out of a losing fight.

It just seems that the enemies do far more damage then them at any given level.

Good points, thanks. In terms of monster level, this module seems to have them always fighting +1, +2, is that normal? If it is, they seem to be out damaged most of the time, we are just getting striking runes for the melees.

If the characters aren't building conditions, is there anything they can do to stop the spam of monster attacks? Even with my SB being optimized for defensive and using his shield stance, he is getting chewed thru. Should I not attack 3 times a round even if a monster has nothing better to do?

Monsters tend to be built with a lot fewer options than players can have, but their fundamental math for how well they throw Strikes is generally quite strong. PCs running up to monsters and standing still next to them and swinging is often not a great idea.

Making enemies that don't attack at range come to you tends to give you the advantage up front, instead of running up to them. After that, spending at least one action on defending yourself, or moving, or helping an ally or debuffing an enemy or forcing an enemy to expend actions that aren't attacking you or really anything besides attacking is usually a better idea for most PCs.

Is there anyway to increase the spell DC or lower the save dc of a monster, so a caster can land spells more often? I know of bon mot, but that doesn't work unless you have a common language.

If the encounters are too much for them a simple solution is just try to weak the monsters maybe even the hazards or just up them (but if you plan to play until level 20, up the players will make you to review the opponents in the last level anyway.

That was my first thought but since we were new, we want to stick to Raw to get the "normal experience". Are the fights supposed to be that hard/enemies always higher level? PCs run up to the enemy and then both side are just duking it out. Is that expected behavior?

My party is just about to finish abomination vaults (book 1) but we are having massive troubles with the combat. We are all new to the game (coming from 5e) except for me and I have only 2 books of Age of Ashes under me. To make them stronger, I am using the free archetype rule.

Party is:
Swashbuckler/acrobatic - tank
Druid/fighter - off tank/healer (medicine & good berries)
Wizard/cleric - dps/support
Rogue/ranger - dps/skill

In combat, I feel like they are doing the right things. Druid is wildshaping and helping flank. Swashbuckler is tumbling to get into flanking position. Rogue is getting into flanking and sneak attacking. Wizard tries to get a clear line of sight or he uses illusions/magic missile. Monsters are attacking (up to 3 times, not sure if this recommended) or using special abilities.

My players feel like they are constantly getting beat to crap and are struggling to kill the monsters in a timely manner. On top of that, almost all of the monsters on the last few levels are higher level then them. So they have less of a chance to hit, get hit more, and the wizard is struggling to get anything to land.

I have heard this module is well balanced and fun, and most of the players love the setting but combat is making people want to quit. Can anyone help me solve this?

My party is just about to start chapter 4 but we are having massive troubles with the combat. We are all new to the game (coming from 5e) except for me and I have only 2 books of Age of Ashes under me. To make them stronger, I am using the free archetype rule.

Party is:
Swashbuckler/acrobatic - tank
Druid/fighter - off tank/healer (medicine & good berries)
Wizard/cleric - dps/support
Rogue/ranger - dps/skill

In combat, I feel like they are doing the right things. Druid is wildshaping and helping flank. Swashbuckler is tumbling to get into flanking position. Rogue is getting into flanking and sneak attacking. Wizard tries to get a clear line of sight or he uses illusions/magic missile. Monsters are attacking (up to 3 times, not sure if this recommended) or using special abilities.

My players feel like they are constantly getting beat to crap and are struggling to kill the monsters in a timely manner. On top of that, almost all of the monsters are floor 3 & 4 are higher level then them. So they have less of a chance to hit, get hit more, and the wizard is struggling to get anything to land.

I have heard this module is well balanced and fun, and most of the players love the setting but combat is making people want to quit. Can anyone help me solve this?

I would buy it from pazio but that shipping cost kills it or from my local game store but they closed. Looks like B&N has it on the 2/11. Thanks for confirming the dates, thought I was going crazy.

Is this book out for retail? Developer video says yes but amazon says april 7th.

So my group is halfway through this and we had a hell of a time during the fire scene. My PCs wanted to put out the fire rather than helping the people, so with cape in hand they went to beat the fire out. I had no clue what the DC to put out a fire with a cape was (saw the small section about this but no dc) so I gave it a basic dc 10 athletics for 1 square and 2 squares on a crit success for one action. Even with 4 people doing this they weren't able to put out the fire by round 8 and almost TPK'ed themselves. The bucket brigade didn't seem like a real option as you needed 15 people to get a bucket each PCs turn but at the bottom end of the room. Can anyone explain how that encounter was supposed to go?

Sorry if this is easy, we are just getting started and don't have the rules 100% down.

Any chance of getting the vector'ed version. So we can scale for larger formats?