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It would seem that adding Dex to damage would make a Ranger (insert dex class here) unquestionably more powerful, and leave fighters solely for flavor ( and I love my Fighters).
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Paizo made Strength obsolete by making it completely useless outside of breaking stuff. Dexterity, on the other hand, has several other benefits associated with its modifier, so it is immediately more useful than Strength. If you can break stuff with Dexterity, yes, Strength is now obsolete twice over.
Now, relying on a specific enchanted weapon can get you into trouble... Sunder is actaully a thing. As a GM, I can take away your toys just as easily as I gave them to you...
But yeah, Agile opens a lot of doors... makes building Finesse characters a little easier without worrying about Slashing Grace or any of the arguments those feat paths bring. It cuts down on feat investment and allows you to focus on more important things than combat feats.
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The problem with relying on Agile weapons is that they cost a minimum of 8000gp so you won't have one for a few levels, and you have to get through those levels in one piece. In addition, if you've dumped Strength you can't carry much and so won't be wearing much armour. Dex helps there, of course, but until you've got your Mithral Breastplate and so on you'll be a bit of a soft target, especially if flat-footed.
Also, agile weapons must be finesseable so that's the 2H sword or glaive or falcata or scimitar or whatever off the list. I hope you like rapiers.
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Yessssss my darlings,
Just wanted to keep your minds sharp...Kingmaker has made peoples minds eye a little lazy.
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Agile sucks because it's a wealth gate. It's not relevant till like 7th or 8th level. If your no damage dex build has gotten that far without it, congrats.
Anyways, the nice thing about Strength is it requires little to no investment.
Fighters sucking ass till Advanced Weapon Training came out was never in dispute. Rangers have always been better.
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It would seem that adding Dex to damage would make a Ranger (insert dex class here) unquestionably more powerful, and leave fighters solely for flavor ( and I love my Fighters).
Wait, why can't a Fighter use an Agile Weapon? I guess Human Fighters can have Slashing/Fencing Grace at level 1, and all other races could have it by level 2 - or any Fighter could take Dervish Dance at 2 instead - so an Agile Weapon is less important to them.
DEX and INT are the master stats. They give more general beenfits than the other stats.
CON and WIS are basically never dump stats. Pretty much all they do is HP/Fort-Saves and Perception/Will-Saves, but those things are so important to staying alive that it means they can't safely be dumped without spending resources on shoring up those weaknesses.
STR and CHA are basically only useful in their own niche. STR is for hitting things but can be replaced by DEX, and CHA is for social skills but can he replaced by INT. If you don't want to be good at those niches or you can replace them with DEX or INT then you basically don't need either of them.
HOWEVER
Even though they're replacable, the replacement will never be as good in their niche, and you have to spend resources to replace them. An 18 STR Fighter vs an 18 DEX Fighter with an Agile weapon - the DEX Fighter will have higher Touch AC, better general skills and a higher Initiative, but the STR Fighter will hit harder. Between the STR bonus for 2-handed weapons, the feats saved, the higher base weapon damage and the extra +1 Enhancement bonus to his weapon the STR Fighter likely has at least +1 to hit and ~+5 damage.
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Agile only works on finesse weapons, which are generally just worse than other options.
You're not getting an agile Falchion, falcatta, fauchard, glaive, butchering axe etc.
Oh and remember you need 13 strength for power attack, and piranha strike only works with light weapons so is not an adequate substitute.
Agile weapons only deal 1x dex to damage even when two handed, as compared to 1.5x strength on a two hander.
So a dex based character is doing significantly less damage with a worse weapon.
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On a side note, I wonder if we all undervalue Str a bit because we are human? Compared to many things, we just aren't that strong.
Maybe. I think a big part of it is how hard it is to meaningfully use STR outside of combat.
STR gives you bonuses to hit and damage, it gives bonuses to Climb and Swim checks, and it increases your carrying capacity. Besides those things it's only really used for "Strength Checks", like smashing down a door or lifting heavy objects.
The problem is that while Strength Checks are actually faily common, it's difficult to maximize them. A 10 STR Halfling and an 18 STR Half-Orc have nearly the same chance to lift something - all that investment made very little difference to the end result.
I'm playing a Primalist Bloodrager with the STRENGTH SURGE Rage power, and I have to tell you it's Suuuper useful. We don't need a Rogue in the party because I can smash down doors. We don't need to waste the Wizard's spells when I can lift some stupidly-heavy object. It gives a scaling bonus to these checks that make me feel like my character's Strength actually matters ... but very few classes have abilities like this, and in the end a DEX-based bloodrager could use "Strength Surge" almost as well as a STR-based one.
Basically it's harder to make use of Strength than Dexterity within the rules, for everything besides combat.
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Finessable weapons are hardly a handicap, and plenty of non-finessable weapons can be made finessable by feats or class abilities well before one could afford the Agile enchantment, anyways. One level of Warrior Poet gives you access to Agile Glaives and Agile Katanas and Agile Naginatas... problem solved for those particular weapons. Bladed Brush works for Glaives, too. Curveblades exist, and are not terrible. The Branched Spear isn't bad, either. Weapon selection is not a problem, nor handicap, even when the weapon must be finessable by the time you can afford to enchant it with Agile.
As mentioned, it is the utility of all the other stats versus Strength. Even when it comes to chopping down trees... that is something you can do with Strength to be useful, right? Nope, Profession [Woodcutter] exists. Lol.
It sucks being stupid. I hate it more than missing, and I never freaking miss. I can go an entire career without ever taking or using any feats or abilities that trade accuracy for damage. But if I can't do SOMETHING in at least half of the non-combat scenarios, I have built a moron... and I was a moron for building my character this way. Why did I do this to me? Now I am sitting on my thumb for over a quarter of the time I volunteer for this game.
Sitting there doing freaking nothing when you COULD be actually playing the game right now, could be actively involved if you hadn't dumped that stat, or had more skills, or didn't waste every single feat on combat crap, or weren't just a big dumb fighter type... no, but I'm strong.
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For the same cost though - I did a comparison of an investigator with a rapier vs. one with a longspear once and it was ridiculous how much better spear-guy was on offense.
OTOH do an analyis of everything a player wants to do and it's likely dex is better, plus the image of a quick duelist with a rapier often beats one of a brawny spearman. There are the 'wake me when there's a fight' type players though. Maybe something like dex as the combat stat should be the default, with extreme strength being a combat ability a few classes can get, but that level of rewriting/writing from scratch is more than I care to get involved with.
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I'm playing a Primalist Bloodrager with the STRENGTH SURGE Rage power, and I have to tell you it's Suuuper useful. We don't need a Rogue in the party because I can smash down doors.
I'm not convinced that covers all the utility of a Rogue. But I guess you could improvise for the rest.
"A shame we don't have a rogue in our party, because it looks like we're going to have to pick the lock..."
"Bloodrager smash!"
"Then disarm the trap..."
"Bloodrager smash!"
"Then sneak past the guards..."
"Bloodrager smash!"
"Then pick the pocket of the sleeping king."
"Bloodrager smash!"
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I'm playing a Primalist Bloodrager with the STRENGTH SURGE Rage power, and I have to tell you it's Suuuper useful. We don't need a Rogue in the party because I can smash down doors.I'm not convinced that covers all the utility of a Rogue. But I guess you could improvise for the rest.
"A shame we don't have a rogue in our party, because it looks like we're going to have to pick the lock..."
"Bloodrager smash!"
"Then disarm the trap..."
"Bloodrager smash!"
"Then sneak past the guards..."
"Bloodrager smash!"
"Then pick the pocket of the sleeping king."
"Bloodrager smash!"
For some reason your post reminded me of the gamer video.
Rogue: "I walk down the corridor."
GM: "A fireball trap triggers doing X damage killing you."
Rogue: "Did I say I walk down corridor I meant I advance cautiously looking for traps."
GM: "A fireball trap triggers doing X damage killing you."
Rogue: "You do recall I'm an experienced Rogue and as such when advancing I'm actually crawling along the floor below the height of most traps."
GM: "A fireball trap triggers doing X damage killing you."
Rogue: ". . . Did I say I advance down the corridor? I meant that the barbarian goes down the corrdior as I'm busy sorting my gear."
GM: "A fireball trap triggers doing X damage and not killing him."
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Finessable weapons are hardly a handicap, and plenty of non-finessable weapons can be made finessable by feats or class abilities well before one could afford the Agile enchantment, anyways. One level of Warrior Poet gives you access to Agile Glaives and Agile Katanas and Agile Naginatas... problem solved for those particular weapons. Bladed Brush works for Glaives, too. Curveblades exist, and are not terrible. The Branched Spear isn't bad, either. Weapon selection is not a problem, nor handicap, even when the weapon must be finessable by the time you can afford to enchant it with Agile.
Finessable weapons are a handicap precisely because you must invest resources to get access to them. Starting out with martial proficiency you'd only be able to use the Rapier, Whip, or light weapons. None of them can be wielded in two hands, they all have a low dmg dice and lack the Reach quality.
Every feat, class level, and bit of gold you spend to be equal to the Strength build's starting weapon is a handicap.And keep in mind that Warrior Poet would not allow for an Agile Naginata. It only allows you to apply Weapon Finesse to the weapon. It doesn't change the inherent properties of the weapon at all, so it wouldn't qualify for Agile when the party wizard tries to enchant it. But it's ill-advised to apply Agile to any two-handed weapon, really. You need a high enough Strength score to carry it and to qualify for Power Attack so you'd prefer to start with STR 14 for the extra two damage over STR 13. Which means Agile grants you a much smaller benefit compared to the STR-dumped Swashbuckler.
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Also, Whips are Exotic, so it's even worse than you said.
But on the plus side, for the low low cost of 4 feats you can turn a Whip into a reach weapon ... 5 if you include Weapon Finess
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Huh. I guess my head went "Whips are so awful that they can't possibly be exotic".
Extra weird that Paizo expects people to pay up EWP for both the Whip and Scorpion Whip just to make the Scorpion Whip actually work.
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Bards and half-orcs can get whip proficiency without paying the feat (besides the usual tricks, half-elf ancestral arms etc.), and there's probably more ways. Pushback against that EWP started early.
Dunno what they were thinking of when they made the scorpion whip take two EWPs for full effectiveness tho'.
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To make use of an agile weapon you also need to have weapon finesse. As others have pointed out that most weapons that can be used with weapon finesse don’t do much damage or have useful properties. For most characters this means they need to spend a feat to get proficiency with an exotic weapon. So in addition to the cost of the agile weapon your DEX based character is spending two feats. If you want to use combat maneuvers with your weapon you need agile maneuvers as well. So to get what a STR based fighter gets for free you are spending 3 feats and 8,000+ gp.
You still cannot really dump STR because you need to wear armor and carry gear. Mithral armor is too expensive for a low level character to afford, especially if you are trying to afford an agile weapon. You need at least 13 STR to qualify for power attack. Power attack is the prerequisite for a lot of feats so forgoing it is severely limited your options.
The last thing to factor in is the fact the STR based fighter will be able to spend the gold the DEX based character spent of the agile property on something else. If nothing else that means the STR based fighter has an extra +1 enchantment on his weapon.
So no the Agile enchantment does not make a STR based fighter obsolete. It can allow a DEX based combatant to be more effective in combat, but that is a long way from rendering the STR based fighter obsolete.
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@pad300
Yeah. Strength isn't used for all that much besides combat, and as you say many tables ignore thise things.
Carrying Capacity? When's the last time your audited your own sheet, let alone checked in on the rest of the party?
Climb? Most people just don't put ranks in it, eventually they can fly
Swim? This kills characters who can't do it, but that just means that characters don't do it. If you're in a campaign with lots of water then everyone invests in this skill and your STR score doesn't matter as much.
And Strength Checks. I already talked about them above.
So I get why people prefer DEX builds. Outside of combat DEX is much better, and during combat DEX helps your Initiative, AC, ranged attacks and Acrobatics score. If you can also get DEX to hit then you really don't need STR.
But I don't think it makes STR obsolete. If you want to hit things - and you want to hit them hard - then STR is much more efficient. It costs less in feats, less in gear, and it deals more damage than a DEX build could ever hope for.
I don't have a problem with DEX or STR characters - I play both - but I think the discussion often centres around the weaknesses of Strength while ignoring it's strengths ...
Appreciate the strengths of Strength.
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For the same cost though - I did a comparison of an investigator with a rapier vs. one with a longspear once and it was ridiculous how much better spear-guy was on offense.
Yeah, most people who worship at the altar of dex-to-damage simply never did the math. People especially tend to differentiate between where a bonus comes from - just like how bonus damage dice are very often valued higher than static bonuses (*cough* sneak attack *cough*), dex-to-damage is very often valued higher than the pure numerical damage bonus it actually is. I've seen people with a 2 higher Dex-mod than Str-mod try to go out of their way to get dex-to-damage.
How often do you actually see agile weapons? Agile costs not only a feat and a +1 weapon enchantment, it also severyly limits the choice of weapon.
For characters (force into) one-handed-wielding weapons, dex-to-damage is popular, but that's usually done via feat.
Unarmed builds failry often use agile, as not only is an Agile AoMF affordable earlier, unarmed builds have to use a finessable weapon anyway. Dex-bsed unarmed builds are still notably behind on damage though (if only Jabbing Master didn't require Power Attack...).
For characters two-hand-wielding their weapon, Agile is terrible. The beneftis from two-handing are 1) +0.5xStr to damage, 2) higher weapon damage dice, and 3) 3:1 Power Attack ration. Agile entirely removes the first, severely reduces the second, and only has the third if you do invest into strength after all - and you need an extra feat to do it in the first place! Seriously, there is no two-handable finessable weapon that isn't exotic.
Say you want a reach weapon. So you have to use an Elven Branched Spear, spend a feat on EWP, spend a feat on Weapon Finesse, spend a +1 cost equivalent weapon enchantment (worth about a feat and a half), and your weapon has -2 average base damage (worth another feat). So you've invested 4.5 feats or their equivalent. Four-and-a-half-feats. So your init is higher... but a strength-based build could've spend a feat on Improved Initiative. So your reflex save is higher... but that's the by far least vital save, and also increasable with feats and traits. Your AC isn't actually higher.
You're basically allocating recources from damage to Init, Ref, and skills. Which is fine - but don't fool yourself into thinking a dex-build has something unique. You just get slightly different numerical bonuses, or got those numerical bonuses from different sources.
On a side note, I wonder if we all undervalue Str a bit because we are human? Compared to many things, we just aren't that strong.I think a big part of it is how hard it is to meaningfully use STR outside of combat.
How often is dex actually used outside of combat, though? I've never seen checks for Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Fly, or Ride be made outside of combat. I've never seen Sleight of Hand be used at all. Disable Device to open locks is pretty much the situation where strength could also be used, and traps are generally not used in the campaign or triggered from a distance. Stealth is usually either not attempted because for group vs. group the math doesn't work out at all, or helped with Invisibility so much that the dex bonus doesn't really matter. I've never seen a dex-check.
DEX and INT are the master stats. They give more general beenfits than the other stats.
I strongly disagree - Con is the "master stat", it's the only stat you want on every single character. Pre-change Scarred Witch Doctor showed how ridiculous a con-based character is. Dex to attack/damage is popular because it exists, if similar options (2 feats or 1 feat + weapon enchantment) existed for getting attack and damage based on Con, Int, and Wis (and with a non-terrible weapon for Cha), I'm pretty sure all of those options would be much more popular than the Dex options. Yes, Dex has a lot of stuff tied to it, but there're virtually no class features tied to it, which allows the mental ability scores to surpass it on most classes/archetypes.
Carrying Capacity? When's the last time your audited your own sheet, let alone checked in on the rest of the party?
It's super easy with digital character sheets, though. Do people really not care about possible encoumberance? How's that difference than using other forms of cheating on your character sheet?
It would seem that adding Dex to damage would make a Ranger (insert dex class here) unquestionably more powerful, and leave fighters solely for flavor ( and I love my Fighters).
Wrong - strength-based Fighters have been a supbar option that's only alluring because of flavor since the second the CRB came out!
Guess your mind could do with a little extra sharpness, too!
Extra weird that Paizo expects people to pay up EWP for both the Whip and Scorpion Whip just to make the Scorpion Whip actually work.
Not weird at all - ordinary whip requires an extra feat (Whip Mastery) to be actually useful, using a scorpion whip at 15ft has the same cost.
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Did I miss something, or am I just falling in to the sar-chasm? I'm playing a whip wielder right now, and I could swear the whip gives me a 15 ft. reach.Also, Whips are Exotic, so it's even worse than you said.
But on the plus side, for the low low cost of 4 feats you can turn a Whip into a reach weapon ... 5 if you include Weapon Finess
Kind-of, but not really. There are 2 main advantages of reach - being able to attack enemies from afar without closing and provoking AoOs, and forcing enemies to provoke AoOs when they close with you. Whips by default do the first , but they don't threaten AoOs at all.
A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with a 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
In order to threaten at all you need WHIP MASTERY, but in order to threaten at reach you need IMPROVED WHIP MASTERY. That means you need Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Whip Mastery amd Improved Whip Mastery . Personally I think this makes the Whip a phenomenal weapon - even with the 1d3 damage - but that's a lot of feats in order to make it a viable weapon.
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Carrying Capacity? When's the last time your audited your own sheet, let alone checked in on the rest of the party?It's super easy with digital character sheets, though. Do people really not care about possible encoumberance? How's that difference than using other forms of cheating on your character sheet?
I mean it's not super hard with paper sheets either, but it's something people often don't think about. More importantly it's something GMs don't often think about.
It's not because it's hard, and it's not because it's a balancing factor . People don't pay attention to carrrying capacity because it's .
You could track it, and force your DEX-based characters to come up with a solution but for the most part the only thing that does is take up time that could be spent playing.
I'm not saying that's how we should do things, and I'm not even saying that's how I do things ...
... but I really do understand why people don't want to spend the time to track this. As long as you character is vaguely in line with the limits and isn't blatantly flaunting the carry-capacity rules I'm not going to care if they're a point or two over their light load.
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DEX and INT are the master stats. They give more general beenfits than the other stats.I strongly disagree - Con is the "master stat", it's the only stat you want on every single character.
That doesn't make it a "Master stat". CON is a defensive stat, it only really does 2 things - HP and Fort-Saves. Both those things save you from dying, but do nothing else. They don't help you win, they don't give you more options , they just exist to keep you breathing. Essentially you want the minimum CON you can afford without dying.
Generally I'm not huge on uber-DEX builds but it's very possible to make a character who dumps STR and CHA, and replaces them with DEX and INT, and that character will be perfectly capable of holding their own in virtually any scenario. You'll need a minimum CON and WIS for defensive reasons but otherwise your character can function entirely around DEX and INT.
And just to clarify, I do agree that this doesn't make Strength obsolete ... as I stated above.
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They could have tied Initiative to Perception, and thus Wisdom, since you have to make a Perception check to see if you notice the surprise round anyways. And that simple change would have made Dex a little less useful.
They could have given strong things a Strength check in place of/as an alternate to an Acrobatics check to move through threatened squares... essentially a mini-bullrush/overrun... shoulder checking past people, slapping spears out of their face.
They could have allowed Climb/Swim checks to be way more frequent in the game... forcing players to at least put ranks into Strength-based skills to make up for a lack of Strength... or forcing them to explore traits that switch attributes associated with certain skill checks. This would have at least provided opportunities for big dumb fighter types to shine outside of combat.
But climbing cliffs is boring, and nobody cares unless there are wyverns and volleys of incoming arrows, whilst climbing the cliff... so take 10, skip to the end... sure, whatever, I took 37 nonlethal falling damage in the process, I still don't care as long as I made it to the top... what's next?
And when Strength checks do show up, they are treated as expected of the big dumb fighter... seldom are they memorable moments. The Barbarian lifted the gate. Good. Nobody expects the archer or priest to do it. There's no tools involved, nothing fancy happens, and the complexity of the problem is so menial that there are often other possible solutions in abundance. Thanks for lifting that gate, bud... but if you had taken the time to simply look over here, there's this lever.
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I have had GMs that DO track encumbrance; I personally pay fairly close attention to it.
I've occasionally encountered important strength checks. In Ironfang Invasion there was a very heavy door that required a high DC strength check to open in order to progress. In another campaign, my Halfling Bloodrager recently bent the bars of a portcullis to allow several PCs to escape an otherwise-deadly trap.
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They could have allowed Climb/Swim checks to be way more frequent in the game... forcing players to at least put ranks into Strength-based skills to make up for a lack of Strength... or forcing them to explore traits that switch attributes associated with certain skill checks. This would have at least provided opportunities for big dumb fighter types to shine outside of combat.
But climbing cliffs is boring, and nobody cares unless there are wyverns and volleys of incoming arrows, whilst climbing the cliff... so take 10, skip to the end... sure, whatever, I took 37 nonlethal falling damage in the process, I still don't care as long as I made it to the top... what's next?
If you’re the GM, you can put as many climb, and swim checks into the game as you desire.
According to the rules, you would take potentially 2d6 of non lethal damage; then up to 18d6 of lethal damage. 20d6 is the maximum possible amount of falling damage.
I tend to want to apply the Massive Damage optional rule to falling. People really don’t fear falling enough.
I also don’t allow a take 10 on climbing, where the height is great enough to cause damage. Not a house rule in this case, just following the rules.
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It’s a little complicated. If you deliberately jump, the first 1d6 is non lethal damage. If you make the DC 15 acrobatics roll then you avoid the first 1d6 of damage and convert the second to non lethal. It all stacks so you can drop 30 feet and only take 1d6 lethal and 1d6 non lethal damage.
That’s pretty heroic, if I tried that my old bones would shatter without doubt.
Of course, a fourth level monk (I think) can drop 20’ without effort. So they could conceivably drop 50’ and only take the 1d6 lethal and 1d6 non lethal damage.
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Ah . . . thanks for the breakdown. I'm wielding a whip via the Blacksnake archetype on my alchemist (because I personally don't care for bombs). Didn't realize just how many freebie feats I was getting frontloaded...
Yeah if you can find a way around the limitations it's great.
Once you have Improved Whip Mastery the whip is the only weapon that threatens adjacent enemies and enemies at reach at the same time. It also can attack at 15 feet, which is basically like having Lunge built in.
It's basically a battlefield controller's dream weapon. It doesn't deal high damage or have high crits, but it's the best at attacking anyone anywhere ... but only after investing 4 feats , which sucks =P
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It's not totally clear, but the kusarigama and the kyoketsu shoge seem to be weapons which can threaten both reach and normal from the descriptions. They don't have any special ability to attack at 15' tho', aren't finessable, and do damage barely better than the whip.
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Re. encumbrance
We were never really sticklers for it but I did play a paladin with strength 14, dex 13 who was all about the charisma.
That paladin could barely wear her full plate without problems. We had a policy that if your strength was so low you couldn't even carry your basic gear then we paid attention to it, so she pretty much had full plate, shield, sword, bow, and that was it, at least on her person, for quite a while.
A dex character isn't likely to be lugging around heavy armour though.
I hate to break it to you now, but I think you were reading it wrong ...
FULL PLATE weighs 50 lbs
CARRYING CAPACITY for 14 STR:
Light Load = 58 lbs
Medium Load = 116 lbs
Heavy Load = 175 lbs
So it looks like you were just shy of your Light load in your full plate, not your maximum carry weight.
The penalties for your armour and your encumberance don't stack, so the only penalty you'd incur from your carry capacity for going to a Heavy load would be a reduced speed when you take the Run action . You're already taking the other penalties from your armour.
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It's not totally clear, but the kusarigama and the kyoketsu shoge seem to be weapons which can threaten both reach and normal from the descriptions. They don't have any special ability to attack at 15' tho', aren't finessable, and do damage barely better than the whip.
If it were based on real life, then the kusarigama would be reach with the bludgeoning end and non-reach with the sickle end. But you can find popular media, especially anime, where the sickle end is swung too. So it's really hard to be sure what is intended by a fantasy game.