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Ok, so, as some of you know, I'm a bit of a fan of the PF1 Occultist and so I am super excited about the announcement of the Thaumaturge. I'm going go crazy just waiting over the weekend for the playtest so I wanted to start a thread for discussion.
Um.....thoughts on what I am expecting based on what little information we have:
Intelligence as key ability.
D8 HP martial (not hyper focused on martial combat effectiveness but capable)
Perception will probably go up to master.
Proficient in up to martial weapons and medium armor (the iconic art seems to support this)
Favors Fortitude and Will saves (also basing this on the iconic art)
Skills are probably pretty close to standard and with a high intelligence, Thaumaturges should probably be at least trained in a lot. They might automatically get crafting and occultism.
Mechanical Focuses
Item based character - like the Occultist, the Thaumaturge will use implements but also favor using talismans. The Thaumaturge may play most similar to the Alchemist and Inventor but with a more magical (though non-spellcaster) feel. They might naturally develop an affinity for talismans equal or better than the Talisman Dabbler archetype. No idea how implements will work but I expect they will have a variety of effects and also use a limited resource.
The best at Recall Knowledge - You know how Enigma Bards and Loremasters are great at knowing a bit or more about everything? The Thaumaturge sounds like it can outshine them and heavily utilize this knowledge in combat.
Overall, the class sounds like it could be a strong support and utility class.
Of course all of this could all be wildly incorrect but we shall see soon.
What does everyone else think?
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I'm guessing that, like the Champion, the Thaumaturge will get access to Focus spells via their class features, rather than needing to opt into focus magic like the Monk or Ranger.
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I’m profoundly curious what their core /thing/ is, and what subclass options we might see. I’m really struggling to picture this class in terms of how it differs from Investigator, but I’m very curious about it.
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I'm expecting ithem to be a martial with focus spells. I expect feat support for being able to make talismans or other consumables# as well as feat support for knowledge based abilities. Based off of some statements I am expecting some inquiistor flare in addition to the occultist stuff.
I'm expecting ithem to be a martial with focus spells. I expect feat support for being able to make talismans or other consumables# as well as feat support for knowledge based abilities. Based off of some statements I am expecting some inquiistor flare in addition to the occultist stuff.
What statements?
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The Magus playtest survey included a question about "what kind of Magus do you want to see" where one of the options was "no spells, but a considerable focus on focus spells" (or something like that) so I imagine they had a frame for a class like that already in some dev document somewhere. So I definitely expect the Thaumaturge to be the martial with focus spells where focus spells and things relating to them are the core part of their schtick.
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I wonder if they will get a special set of focus spell abilities where they can "hold" focus points in "implement slots" that grant certain on-going abilities, but if they "spend" that point in that slot it provides some sort of "nova" ability...
I'm expecting ithem to be a martial with focus spells. I expect feat support for being able to make talismans or other consumables# as well as feat support for knowledge based abilities. Based off of some statements I am expecting some inquiistor flare in addition to the occultist stuff.What statements?
I can't seem to find it myself but someone said in the chat that Mark Moreland that there was some inquisitor esque aspects to the class. (I am trying to find it myself but havent yet.)
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I'm expecting ithem to be a martial with focus spells. I expect feat support for being able to make talismans or other consumables# as well as feat support for knowledge based abilities. Based off of some statements I am expecting some inquiistor flare in addition to the occultist stuff.What statements?I can't seem to find it myself but someone said in the chat that Mark Moreland that there was some inquisitor esque aspects to the class. (I am trying to find it myself but havent yet.)
Well, during the keynote presentation, regarding the Thaumaturge class, Eric did say, “You identify enemies, learn to exploit their weaknesses. This is just someone who basically has a little bit of information about everything, knows lots of secret lore, and then uses some talismans and special objects, implements, to adventure, [and] get the most out of their adventuring life.”
I think the part about identifying enemies and exploiting their weakness touches on some of the themes of the Inquisitor class; probably a little additional inquisitor flavor is added with the whole thing implying their thirst for secret knowledge, too.
Yes I remember that now too, that was the first thing that tipped me off, but I started doubting myself and I've been super busy and forgot tor echeck the video
How would people feel about a class that had int to AC while unarmoured as an option?
The game will need a lot more talismans of different power levels for me, personally, to consider anything based on talisman usage worth considering.
I wouldn't be surprised if it gets something similar to the investigator methodology Alchemical Sciences.
I would not be opposed to the idea, but I don't know if it fits thematically. Maybe flavored as protective runes one can wear?
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Here's hoping the Talisman stuff is a specific subclass, and not a core feature; "item classes" do nothing for me.
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How would people feel about a class that had int to AC while unarmoured as an option?
The game will need a lot more talismans of different power levels for me, personally, to consider anything based on talisman usage worth considering.
I wouldn't be surprised if it gets something similar to the investigator methodology Alchemical Sciences.
Int replacing Dex for AC I think would be workable. Int in addition to Dex I don't think is going to happen - the design philosophy of 2e doesn't seem to allow for adding more than one ability score to the same stat.
Consider that at 1st level with 18 Dex and 16 Int (or the other way around) you'd be at 20 AC. By comparison, a paladin who somehow got his hands on full plate at 1st level would have only 19 AC and be paying for it with reduced speed.
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PF2's pretty firm about their +5/+6 AC cap anyways so I doubt that'd be an issue.
I'm a big fan of more unarmored options though for characters that don't maximize dex.
Class sounds like it'll probably be Int based, the occultist was and there's an emphasis on knowledge there.... though Celestials, Fiends and Undead seem like they're in that wheelhouse and you need to be Wise to know about those, wonder if they'll have any mechanics around that... something like the Ranger's monster hunter maybe?
I can imagine a lot of pieces for this class but I'm not sure how they're going to really come together. Like, from the description alone I'm not sure what its core mechanic would really look like.
Excited to see it on Monday though.
Also very excited for the Thaumaturge, as Occultist was one of my very favorite 1e classes (alongside Witch and Alchemist, so... here's hoping...)
I'm thinking d8, medium armor, martial weapons, maybe Shield Block, fort/will, and probably Int-focused with 3 skills. Str or Int as key abilities.
The martial focus caster niche seems like a gimme here, and I think implements lend themselves really well to being focus repositories and having resonant powers while focus points are in them, and maybe minor lingering powers regardless. Coming off Secrets of Magic, I think it might be interesting to have implements for each essence of magic, rather than each spell school; so at 1st level you take your pick of a Matter, Mind, Spirit, or Life implement, which has maybe a corresponding focus cantrip, focus power, and resonant buffs. Four instead of eight seems more workable, and you can always expand the power options later.
Then feats to upgrade and expand the powers, explore other implements, etc. It'd be cool if eventually you could have a pool of more than 3 focus points so long as you're storing them in implements.
My guess for their martial "thing" here is that they'll take advantage of their focus cantrip and resonant powers round-by-round, and then discharge their implement for a big effect. Then maybe every Thaumaturge gets a generic force blast that any implement can do, so if you really need to you can just wallop something. Also means you can pick the flavor of implement you want and have a bit of baseline offense regardless.
What I'd really like to see, too, is some baseline support for rituals. Even if it's just a feat line that lets you pick up certain inoffensive rituals (animate objects, resurrect things, etc.) and then makes it easier for you to pull them of. "Crafting" rituals as part of the class seems like it'd be a cool avenue, if someone wants to take it.
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I know nothing about possible 1e influences but I'm hyped for this. Non-bard flavored occult class feels like my jam. Even more so if focus spells are a central feature.
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Favorite things from Occultist:
- Object Reading (great tool for GM to provide information)
- Divination implement ability to ask an item questions (great for occult detective)
- Animating a doll as a temporary familiar (great for character stuff/utility, more disposable)
- Lots of good utility spells (already ruled out- not a caster)
- Pool of points to supplement spells (not applicable, but it sounds like some sort of item pool might be available)
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So the Thaumaturge is everything I thought it would be but with some unexpected twists.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/pq8p6g/pathfinder_designer_s howcase_upcoming_project/
(I'm on mobile so if someone else can appropriately link it that would be great)
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Clickytap
thank you so much
EDIT: I'm super excited for the Thamaturge but it seems abit MAD.
martial, but charisma focused, but also utilizes recall knowledges(which use int and wis) I'm interested in how they balance or account for that.
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DOES NOT HAVE A SPELL DC, it does have a level 20 feat that lets you work a miracle to cast a spell with Class DC, Mark hopes fans of the occultist like it.
Thaumaturge have rituals, and also pacts you can make that are uncommon, where you make a bargain with an entity-- fulu are makeable as well
Thaumaturge is not a focus caster, it doesn't even have a spell dc, completely non spellcasting magical stuff.
No focus spells for me but I'm still intrigued and invested. Apparently, the Psychic was the non-bard occult caster I was looking for. I'm double hyped!
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From the additional spoilers, I'm still super excited about everything but I'm going to have to learn to accept that it's a charisma based character. I'll try to push for intelligence as an option in the playtest surveys but I won't hold my breath.
I absolutely love that it's a martial that touches on every magical tradition without actually casting spells. It kind of meets my previous "pie-in-the-sky" hopes.
Edit: Oh, and, for me, the "bag of stuff" evokes Ally Sheedy in The Breakfast Club.
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God this class rules.
Knowing more about it now I'm less annoyed at charisma, but would also argue for int as an option - we'll see the playtest.
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Yeah we need to see the Thaumaturge's core mechanic to get grounded into the idea of "what is even my core mechanic"
I'm not quite as sure about Charisma, so part of me is wondering if Wisdom or Int would be a better fit. Especially Wisdom. Bards connect to others through extroversion, whereas I feel like this description feels more introversion- Bards talk, Thaumaturge's listen. There is something to be said for Charisma as the John Constantine fantasy of swaggering in, bluffing powerful enemies, and so forth though.
But eh, we haven't seen the class yet.
Ditto goes for the psychic, it sounds cool but I'm a little dissapointed its spontaneous-- it makes sense in some ways but I'd rather have it be prepared to differentiate it from the Bard. ESPECIALLY since they have the option to use Charisma.
Well this is what playtesting is for! Lets see the full picture and give feedback accordingly.
If they're open to choosing INT/CHA for psychics, it can be a big part of feedback for Thaumaturge that we'd like to see other options of Key ability to allow for more stories. Even also having INT/CHA* instead of just CHA lets you have the swagger magic bluffer, and the student of the weird character type play out organically.
*Because well, being WIS based is a bit stronger, because it bumps Initiative, Will saves, Perception, etc. Though I'd love pick between all three mental stats, and the Thaumaturge would just allow for so so much.
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I don't mind Charisma based, but it is sort of interesting given that the blurb we got yesterday made it sound like the class emphasizes knowledge and understand, but recall knowledge runs exclusively off int and wisdom.
Wonder if it's going to have any mechanics to help manage that, because right now it sounds a little MAD and PF2 doesn't really like balanced/spread out statlines.
It sounds like Occultist basically uses an idea similar to the old UMD skill (not literally) but “forcing” magic out of objects. And in 2E magic item investment is linked to charisma isn’t it (or at least getting bonus invested items is)
So by this logic Charisma makes sense
Concern seems to be that they apparently rely on knowledge skills which are Int or Wisdom. And then are a martial so need something in the other 3.
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I would actually be ok with Wisdom (even over intelligence). It feels like a nice middle ground and more fitting from the vibes I'm getting so far. I think we need more wisdom based classes anyway and there seems to be a bloat of intelligence based classes currently.
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Yeah that's my concern. Int, Cha and Str are the three 'traditional' dump stats and the Thaumaturge sounds like they want all of them... and PF2 in general is not a system built to accommodate even/split/balanced statlines very well.
The class sounds really interesting though. Magical without spell slots or focus spells. I hope that means they get a lot of unique activities they can use in combat and other places.
If they can "cheat" knowledge checks to use Cha that could be fun, but they've explicitly said they consider swapping what stat you use to be a design space that was inevitable corrosive in 1e.
Maybe an ability to make a charisma based check to gain information, like Battle Assessment.
It'd also let it be/give very specific information.
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If they can "cheat" knowledge checks to use Cha that could be fun, but they've explicitly said they consider swapping what stat you use to be a design space that was inevitable corrosive in 1e.
Maybe an ability to make a charisma based check to gain information, like Battle Assessment.
It'd also let it be/give very specific information.
They have expressed a willingness to do it, just in VERY VERY sparse and controlled ways, thief racket, streetwise, courtly graces.
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True, true. Baked into a class feature is a pretty safe way to prevent poaching or broad violation of the meaning of an ability.
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The blurb may have been a little misleading. A thaumaturge is based on the idea that it's not just that you might know things. You are connected to things and you can manipulate those connections and create them. Part of it is like convincing the universe that this is a thing, akin to the idea of magic maybe plowing the field for future casting from SoM treatises on the nature of magic. Is this broken chain from a freed slave a good connection to damage this tyrannical king? Well he doesn't have any weaknesses normally, but you're pushing the universe to create a new bespoke weakness just for you.
You can use Cha for a special in battle Recall Knowledge to suss out existing weaknesses or make a new one. Even if you fail, you can spend another Interact action to just pull out tons of different possibilities and try them until something works. So a success is not necessary to do your thing.
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Oooh, that's very cool.
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That sounds VERY cool. I like how it seems like your designing it to be a logical addition to a world where the SoM treatises are the fabric.
In a sane world I'd wait until Monday and stop trying to predesign how I think every sentence will work... but... Where's the fun in that?
That does sound cool
That is a very cool core mechanic. Can't wait to see how it works in play!
That gives me a better picture for it being Charisma based for sure, although now I'm also getting Wisdom vibes. Interesting either way.
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Every new tidbit makes me understand and get even more excited. I am super excited for this concept.
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Every new tidbit makes me understand and get even more excited. I am super excited for this concept.
Is it weird to say I'm on the same page. Like I had the class and already was excited. But I started reading in-world treatises from SoM and sources for symbolism on Earth (and Golarion) in stuff like tarot, astrology, and more, checking different portrayals in media of this type of character, and just the more I got into that, the more excited I became for the thaumaturge. That's why in chat I said not to tell the inventor. (inventor, sorry, I still love you, I just always get swept up in the next new thing!)
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I also realize that with tons of other kinds of social media and formats like discord, reddit, streams, and so on rising in prominence for Pathfinder, paizo.com has become a little less of the one stop source for info that it was, so in the interest of giving you all in particular one more thing I didn't say in the panel yet for a paizo.com exclusive (until those sneaky other places scoop it): thaumaturges can also opt into a familiar if they want, with several of the usual follow-up feats too. So if your vision of this kind of character might have some kind of snarky companion (OK it doesn't have to be snarky), you can do that too!
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Every new tidbit makes me understand and get even more excited. I am super excited for this concept.Is it weird to say I'm on the same page. Like I had the class and already was excited. But I started reading in-world treatises from SoM and sources for symbolism on Earth (and Golarion) in stuff like tarot, astrology, and more, checking different portrayals in media of this type of character, and just the more I got into that, the more excited I became for the thaumaturge. That's why in chat I said not to tell the inventor. (inventor, sorry, I still love you, I just always get swept up in the next new thing!)
Oooh... I really like that a harrow deck makes an excellent source of weaknesses. And if you fail your check, there's some better connection to another card that you're missing.
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I also realize that with tons of other kinds of social media and formats like discord, reddit, streams, and so on rising in prominence for Pathfinder, paizo.com has become a little less of the one stop source for info that it was, so in the interest of giving you all in particular one more thing I didn't say in the panel yet for a paizo.com exclusive (until those sneaky other places scoop it): thaumaturges can also opt into a familiar if they want, with several of the usual follow-up feats too. So if your vision of this kind of character might have some kind of snarky companion (OK it doesn't have to be snarky), you can do that too!
Heeey, nice! Current plan: manifested spirit of a dead rat, living in the lantern that "reveals" him to the Material Plane.
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Every new tidbit makes me understand and get even more excited. I am super excited for this concept.Is it weird to say I'm on the same page. Like I had the class and already was excited. But I started reading in-world treatises from SoM and sources for symbolism on Earth (and Golarion) in stuff like tarot, astrology, and more, checking different portrayals in media of this type of character, and just the more I got into that, the more excited I became for the thaumaturge. That's why in chat I said not to tell the inventor. (inventor, sorry, I still love you, I just always get swept up in the next new thing!)
It's not weird at all and in fact I think is an awesome sign about how passionate you are!!
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This class is everything I never knew I wanted. Thanks Mark, I'm pretty sure both Inventor and Thaumaturge will be incredible.
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The blurb may have been a little misleading. A thaumaturge is based on the idea that it's not just that you might know things. You are connected to things and you can manipulate those connections and create them. Part of it is like convincing the universe that this is a thing, akin to the idea of magic maybe plowing the field for future casting from SoM treatises on the nature of magic. Is this broken chain from a freed slave a good connection to damage this tyrannical king? Well he doesn't have any weaknesses normally, but you're pushing the universe to create a new bespoke weakness just for you.
When I asked for a class that highlighted the differences between occult and arcane traditions, this hit the nail on the head. Sympathetic and Synecdochic magic seems like the Thaumaturge's wheelhouse, and I am 100% here for that kind of characterization.
Interesting use of what occultists were built on, while spinning it into a newer narrative slot.
Perfect! Very excited (for this and Inventor). I love that every new class has taken a unique angle, and this one seems even more up my alley than 1e's Occultist.
Stoked for Monday