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The most heartening part of this whole crisis is that the top folks at Paizo have admitted to making mistakes and pledged to do better in the future.
Actually, the most heartening thing to me is to see so many people that love Paizo for its inclusivity, as well as gor the great people who work on serving us through products and service, yet are willing to lose all this to help protect Paizo folks from what could be quite the toxic management.
Or do we prefer people say nothing and we silently let Paizo rush blindly to their end.
A wound that is not tended festers to lethal issue.
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I have said it before, I will say it again. Saying you have friends of a denomination is considered an issue because it is used to EXCUSE behaviors and deny indirectly.
e.g. Saying "I am not racist, I have black friends" when getting called out for using a slur or making a racist comment.
Someone who "categorically denies" engaging in the behavior they are accused of, and then clarifies their connection is not doing the same thing, UNLESS they are lying.
But if you are infact innocent and something like this occurs then that fear and hurt can cause people to scramble for any sort of response to prove innocence.
They are VERY different uses of the "I have -insert denomination- friends" argument.
As for the accusations, I personally would really like to hear some of the people in question come forward openly. It is difficult in this scenario but it is worth while if they are out there.
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Pretty sure I'm one of the folks considered trolling since most of my posts in this thread were deleted (probably flagged by the usual suspects).
Funny enough, if you look at the posts with the most drama over the years, I'll bet it's the same folks doing the flagging found at the center of It.
That's not how it works. Flagging a post only brings it to a Paizo moderator's attention. They still use the Community guidelines and their own common sense when deciding whether or not to remove a post. And if you directly quote someone else's post that is removed, your reply with the quote is removed too.
If you are seeing a lot of your posts removed by Paizo moderators, then 1) do better when making your posts.
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Everybody engaging in Paizo-bashing here needs to take a deep breath and a step back.
Urging for change and transparency isn’t bashing. Asking for accountability isn’t bashing. Pointing out past mistakes isn’t bashing.
Everyone trying to shut down this conversation because “corporate gonna corporate” could also stand to take a breath or two.
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I'd like to point out that while Erik and Jason admitted to mistakes and talked about how they specifically would improve upon those mistakes, Jeff did not. Jeff talked about how he can't talk about anything, and how he believes the company is better now than it was five years ago, and how it will be better in five more years than it is now. And Tonya has been completely silent other than a post where she explained that she moderated out talk of the Civil War and GamerGate.
Silence is deafening here for sure.
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I'd like to point out that while Erik and Jason admitted to mistakes and talked about how they specifically would improve upon those mistakes, Jeff did not. Jeff talked about how he can't talk about anything, and how he believes the company is better now than it was five years ago, and how it will be better in five more years than it is now. And Tonya has been completely silent other than a post where she explained that she moderated out talk of the Civil War and GamerGate.Silence is deafening here for sure.
What do you want him to say? He has denied the accusation made against him, albeit in a really tone deaf way to be sure. There were specific allegations made against to which Erik and Jason responded. How can he respond any other way than, “I never said that”? And would you believe him?
And why should Tonya say anything? Ms. Price made allegations against her to which I wouldn’t respond either. I still have fond recollections of Tonya telling Ms. Price to “Stay the f+~& out of my VO forum.” Good times, that. As CS falls under her purview now, it would be her responsibility to inform employees of their termination. Even if she disagrees with that decision! So again, why should she say anything?
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What do you want him to say? He has denied the accusation made against him, albeit in a really tone deaf way to be sure. There were specific allegations made against to which Erik and Jason responded. How can he respond any other way than, “I never said that”? And would you believe him?
He's the President of the company so I expect him to take responsibility for bad policy that led to systemic transphobia. It doesn't actually even matter who was President at the time, because he is in charge at this point.
So I would like him to say SOMETHING about it. As for whether he would be believed, I suppose that depends on what he says and how he says it.
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What do you want him to say? He has denied the accusation made against him, albeit in a really tone deaf way to be sure. There were specific allegations made against to which Erik and Jason responded. How can he respond any other way than, “I never said that”? And would you believe him?He's the President of the company so I expect him to take responsibility for bad policy that led to systemic transphobia. It doesn't actually even matter who was President at the time, because he is in charge at this point.
So I would like him to say SOMETHING about it. As for whether he would be believed, I suppose that depends on what he says and how he says it.
And does. Does is quite important here.
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What do you want him to say? He has denied the accusation made against him, albeit in a really tone deaf way to be sure. There were specific allegations made against to which Erik and Jason responded. How can he respond any other way than, “I never said that”? And would you believe him?He's the President of the company so I expect him to take responsibility for bad policy that led to systemic transphobia. It doesn't actually even matter who was President at the time, because he is in charge at this point.
So I would like him to say SOMETHING about it. As for whether he would be believed, I suppose that depends on what he says and how he says it.
Yes, he is in charge now. Had he said I was unaware of that policy at the time and going forward it won’t happen again, would you believe him? Would that be enough? The corporate speak translation is five years ago, now, five years from now.
And as both of us know, it was Erik Mona’s name on every housing contract we both signed. Every time.
So, should Erik be called to the carpet for housing issues? What about Lisa who was in charge? To my knowledge no one has.
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What do you want him to say? He has denied the accusation made against him, albeit in a really tone deaf way to be sure. There were specific allegations made against to which Erik and Jason responded. How can he respond any other way than, “I never said that”? And would you believe him?And why should Tonya say anything? Ms. Price made allegations against her to which I wouldn’t respond either. I still have fond recollections of Tonya telling Ms. Price to “Stay the f$$# out of my VO forum.” Good times, that. As CS falls under her purview now, it would be her responsibility to inform employees of their termination. Even if she disagrees with that decision! So again, why should she say anything?
It is all too easy to say he had to say something though he may have been advised by legal counsel to not say anything. Not for being at fault simply how such matters are handled. Even then it will not be enough for some here because they know damn better than anyone else even Jason own lawyers or Paizo HR department or.
Jason will says something when he wants to know and after consulting with legal counsel.
Leg o Lamb nothing the company does will satisfy some here.
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Leg o Lamb nothing the company does will satisfy some here.
This is a mischaracterization of the general opinions presented here in this thread to make them seem unreasonable so your corporatist leave well enough alone argument seems measured in comparison.
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That's not how it works. Flagging a post only brings it to a Paizo moderator's attention. They still use the Community guidelines and their own common sense when deciding whether or not to remove a post. And if you directly quote someone else's post that is removed, your reply with the quote is removed too.
If you are seeing a lot of your posts removed by Paizo moderators, then 1) do better when making your posts.
Mods are human people too. Most (not all) of my deleted posts might have been critical of Paizo's newer kid glove direction for example, the same kind of veiled attacks here were used there too, yet most of my posts got deleted over theirs if any. I'm just not buying that all mods are impartial.
A different opinion on this forum tends to trigger a mob and is seen as a trouble making post and imho, the mods are more than happy to use that as an excuse to delete said critical posts but leave the attacking mob posts more or less intact.I've been more or less directly or indirectly labeled racist, mysogonistic, reprehensible, etc. on these forums by some of the same folks here that always seem to be at the center of all the drama and/or conflict.
It would be cool to have mods that are impartial.
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This is a mischaracterization of the general opinions presented here in this thread to make them seem unreasonable so your corporatist leave well enough alone argument seems measured in comparison.
Of course I am a "corporatist" because I disagree with your position. Just see the below post after this one, some in this thread and other threads. For many no matter how many time Paizo says " we will do better give us time" means they are doing nothing. It is not enough.
If some of the staff cannot respond they simply are not able to do so as certain procedures are to be followed. Or on the advice of legal counsel or HR. It is not malicious intent or trying to ignore the issue. It is trying to do things the proper way rather than the court of public opinion.
If the roles were reversed many of you would be doing the exact same thing. It is really easy to be very brave and claim to want to do the right thing always no matter the cost from both the safety of a screen and keyboard and when one is not the one under scrutiny and suffering from legal issues.
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And why should Tonya say anything? Ms. Price made allegations against her to which I wouldn’t respond either. I still have fond recollections of Tonya telling Ms. Price to “Stay the f&#@ out of my VO forum.” Good times, that. As CS falls under her purview now, it would be her responsibility to inform employees of their termination. Even if she disagrees with that decision! So again, why should she say anything?
They are the only one who was directly named in anything that hasn't said anything. Jeff spoke up and did a poor job (IMO) but Tonya hasn't said a word on this and has said barely anything at all in general.
AFAIK Tonya wasn't a Paizo employee prior to their installment into the newly created position that coincided with the conflict between employees and management that led to two team members who were held in high regard by this community being dismissed and/or leaving. Tonya had left Paizo and become the (I believe) only employee of the Organized Play Foundation. Is the OPF still a thing? Are there any employees in the OPF now?
Even outside of these most recent issues (and they are *big* issues) we have allegations that Tonya violated a safe space by sharing materials shared in confidence directly with management. This type of violation is concerning, and doubly so when the violation is being carried out by someone who is now expected to be "Director of Community".
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Another old-timer here, climbing out of the woodwork.
I’ve been part of the community for many years and have been a fan and supporter of Paizo. Over those years, I have had the sense that work life for the staffers was challenging and draining, but the recent revelations have shined a spotlight on the extent of those challenges and the toxicity of that working environment.
I want to continue supporting Paizo, as I have for the last 15+ years, but that is difficult to do when so much of that culture is laid bare.
Admittedly, I consume products from many companies without knowing much about their cultures or working conditions. I buy a lot of things from a lot of companies, but I don’t go to their conventions, or chat on their Discord servers, or post regularly on their messageboards. Paizo is different. What differentiates Paizo from other companies I buy from is the sense of community engagement that has defined their operations from the very beginning. The leadership had always made themselves available and actively engaged with members of the community.
When I buy a Paizo book, I’m not just buying words on a page; I’m buying into a culture and supporting a community that has been so important to me for many years. I make a point to buy Paizo publications on the web store in order to ensure that as much of the purchase price as possible goes directly to the company, even though it would be cheaper and easier to buy the book on, say, Amazon. Why do I do that? Because I believe in what they do and want to support it as best I can. Because I’m not just acquiring a book; I’m supporting this community, and this game, and this shared world, and all the incredibly talented people who make it happen.
The optimist in me wants to believe that Paizo can do better. But that is going to take action and not just words. Perhaps shining a spotlight on these problems is the only way that they get better. In the meantime, I find myself distressed by what that culture has done to Sara and Diego, and by what so many others experienced as well.
Please do better, Paizo.
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And why should Tonya say anything? Ms. Price made allegations against her to which I wouldn’t respond either. I still have fond recollections of Tonya telling Ms. Price to “Stay the f&#@ out of my VO forum.” Good times, that. As CS falls under her purview now, it would be her responsibility to inform employees of their termination. Even if she disagrees with that decision! So again, why should she say anything?They are the only one who was directly named in anything that hasn't said anything. Jeff spoke up and did a poor job (IMO) but Tonya hasn't said a word on this and has said barely anything at all in general.
AFAIK Tonya wasn't a Paizo employee prior to their installment into the newly created position that coincided with the conflict between employees and management that led to two team members who were held in high regard by this community being dismissed and/or leaving. Tonya had left Paizo and become the (I believe) only employee of the Organized Play Foundation. Is the OPF still a thing? Are there any employees in the OPF now?
Even outside of these most recent issues (and they are *big* issues) we have allegations that Tonya violated a safe space by sharing materials shared in confidence directly with management. This type of violation is concerning, and doubly so when the violation is being carried out by someone who is now expected to be "Director of Community".
Consider the source.
@feelsbradman
I'm still here because I like participating and reading the Pathfinder 1e AP threads. I also might try to get into a pbp. And yes, I voted with my wallet on 2e.
Hey I understand- but my question wasn't addressed in general, just to those that have said, "I'm done with Paizo" ya know? If I went around decrying a company saying I'll never buy their products, etc., I wouldn't want to spend hours on that company's forums I guess, but apparently that's just me lol
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That would only cover the safe space concerns and that's been corroborated by additional sources? Like, even if you don't like Ms. Price, that doesn't actually address the bulk of what I said was factoring into my concerns?Consider the source.
I am unaware of the corroboration. Can you please point me in that direction or provide a link? Thank you.
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Hey I understand- but my question wasn't addressed in general, just to those that have said, "I'm done with Paizo" ya know? If I went around decrying a company saying I'll never buy their products, etc., I wouldn't want to spend hours on that company's forums I guess, but apparently that's just me lol@feelsbradman
I'm still here because I like participating and reading the Pathfinder 1e AP threads. I also might try to get into a pbp. And yes, I voted with my wallet on 2e.
I can't speak for anyone but me, but my voting with my wallet was done by canceling my subscriptions. It is my sincere hope that it isn't a permanent change but instead is temporary as Paizo makes a positive change.
That said, it's one of those things that will take time and I fully believe voicing your hopes is a good way to apply positive pressure too.
Realistically they can "out last me" I suppose, I'll get tired of hoping and f**k off I guess.
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I am unaware of the corroboration. Can you please point me in that direction or provide a link? Thank you.That would only cover the safe space concerns and that's been corroborated by additional sources? Like, even if you don't like Ms. Price, that doesn't actually address the bulk of what I said was factoring into my concerns?Consider the source.
Update: I actually went back through to check this for you and get a link. Unfortunately, I cannot link you as I misremembered it being a post, but it was a conversation I had and it's not for me to share specific details re: names/etc. So I apologize.
Again, for what it is worth that doesn't address the multiple other points of confusion or concern I shared. :)
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Hey I understand- but my question wasn't addressed in general, just to those that have said, "I'm done with Paizo" ya know? If I went around decrying a company saying I'll never buy their products, etc., I wouldn't want to spend hours on that company's forums I guess, but apparently that's just me lol@feelsbradman
I'm still here because I like participating and reading the Pathfinder 1e AP threads. I also might try to get into a pbp. And yes, I voted with my wallet on 2e.
I can't speak for anyone but me, but my voting with my wallet was done by canceling my subscriptions. It is my sincere hope that it isn't a permanent change but instead is temporary as Paizo makes a positive change.
That said, it's one of those things that will take time and I fully believe voicing your hopes is a good way to apply positive pressure too.
Realistically they can "out last me" I suppose, I'll get tired of hoping and f**k off I guess.
I understand, and I agree with you.
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I wouldn't be satisfied with that at this point, no.Serious question, I am NOT trolling.
At this point, what would satisfy you?
In the example response Lamb offered, there was no information given at all, nor a commitment to what kind of changes they are planning.
At minimum I want to know if they accept Crystal's account of policy at Paizo, or if they would like to clarify the situation. I want to see that Paizo is taking this concern seriously.
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I am unaware of the corroboration. Can you please point me in that direction or provide a link? Thank you.That would only cover the safe space concerns and that's been corroborated by additional sources? Like, even if you don't like Ms. Price, that doesn't actually address the bulk of what I said was factoring into my concerns?Consider the source.
Update: I actually went back through to check this for you and get a link. Unfortunately, I cannot link you as I misremembered it being a post, but it was a conversation I had and it's not for me to share specific details re: names/etc. So I apologize.
Again, for what it is worth that doesn't address the multiple other points of confusion or concern I shared. :)
So… hearsay? Also, if it was a private conversation aren’t you doing exactly for what you are castigating others?
Also, I should be more explicit. By writing a decision she disagrees with, it is possible Tonya was ordered to fire Sara.
Also, Ms Price did nothing to ingratiate herself with Tonya when she was hired. There was a lot of bad blood between Ms. Price and the PFS VOs including Tonya in her position of OPL. If she did it, was it wrong? Maybe. I don’t know what was said about whom. In the realm of office politics? I don’t know. Nor do you.
Regarding employment, from what I remember, Tonya was an employee of both the OPF and Paizo. So yes, Tonya has been a Paizo employee since she was hired. And so what? Why would that matter? If your response is “retaliation” then I do not accept that.
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Let's flip this, and you set some baselines with me. I've been pretty consistent at answering your questions ;)
Of everyone who has been named within the issues that have come up in the last week, only one person has not responded, that person is Tonya.
Based on the timeline we know that the issues that developed between employees and Management in the CS department coincided with the new role of Director of Community being created. These issues have so far culminated with the firing of Sara, and then Diego quitting specifically as an act of protest against the manner in which Management behaved during the aforementioned conflicts that arose and no longer having trust in them. Tonya would have been the Management figure based on the hierarchy and timelines.
Is it your suggestion that if Tonya's new role means she carried out actions she personally may disagree with that this absolves any concerns regarding propriety or concerns over the end result?
Edit: To set a baseline with you as well though, I've had clarification with OPF. Looks like it was a legal entity only and I was incorrect at Tonya being an actual employee of OPF vs Paizo. Feel free to drop the confusion aspects there as it relates to her!
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Let's flip this, and you set some baselines with me. I've been pretty consistent at answering your questions ;)
Of everyone who has been named within the issues that have come up in the last week, only one person has not responded, that person is Tonya.
Based on the timeline we know that the issues that developed between employees and Management in the CS department coincided with the new role as Director of Community. These issues have so far culminated with the firing of Sara, and then Diego quitting specifically as an act of protest against the manner in which Management behaved during the aforementioned conflicts that arose and no longer having trust in them. Tonya would have been the Management figure based on the hierarchy and timelines.
Is it your suggestion that if Tonya's new role means she carried out actions she personally may disagree with that this absolves any concerns regarding propriety or concerns over the end result?
Yes.
No.
In management you are asked to do a great many things with which you may disagree. Am I upset Sara Marie was fired? Yes! Mos def yes! I liked her quite a bit and always enjoyed the times I was fortunate enough to be in her company. Unless you have the secret gnosis which you can’t share with the class, your suppositions are as valid as mine. Lu quit before the announcement of the promotion. I think. So, if one CSR quit before the firing of Sara Marie, maybe, just maybe the problem exists elsewhere?
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Which is entirely possible! All I’m attempting to say, poorly it appears, is that none of us know what is going on. All of us are selective in who we believe and who we dismiss. Myself included. Will we ever know? Unlikely.
I voted with my wallet when 2e came out. I didn’t like the new art direction/layout design choices and the physical books I received were subpar. That and I didn’t really like the rule set at the time. Jury is still out and whether that has changed.
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your suppositions are as valid as mine.I agree with you here. I think we're talking past each other a little bit at this point, but that we've both shared our opinions. Should we leave it at?
I think so. It is my belief we are coming at the situation from opposite and or oppositional directions but want the same thing.
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I'm in love with Pathfinder 2, and I've been the one in my gaming groups pushing most enthusiastically to play with the new rules.
So I'm really really hoping that Paizo can show some good changes in management policy, and I'm hoping the transphobia allegations will be answered to some degree. Because I really want to like this company.
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That's not how it works. Flagging a post only brings it to a Paizo moderator's attention. They still use the Community guidelines and their own common sense when deciding whether or not to remove a post. And if you directly quote someone else's post that is removed, your reply with the quote is removed too.
If you are seeing a lot of your posts removed by Paizo moderators, then 1) do better when making your posts.
Mods are human people too. Most (not all) of my deleted posts might have been critical of Paizo's newer kid glove direction for example, the same kind of veiled attacks here were used there too, yet most of my posts got deleted over theirs if any. I'm just not buying that all mods are impartial.
A different opinion on this forum tends to trigger a mob and is seen as a trouble making post and imho, the mods are more than happy to use that as an excuse to delete said critical posts but leave the attacking mob posts more or less intact.
I've been more or less directly or indirectly labeled racist, mysogonistic, reprehensible, etc. on these forums by some of the same folks here that always seem to be at the center of all the drama and/or conflict.It would be cool to have mods that are impartial.
Unless you're asking for some form of automated AI modding you're asking for the impossible. No human being is EVER impartial. Some do a lot better than others in approaching impartiality but NONE achieve it
It's also that, not to put too fine a point on it, impartiality from mods requires more manpower than Paizo has available.
My impression has been Customer Support and particularly Community Management have been ludicrously understaffed for a while now. There was a while there (like 2-3 years) where unless I'm mistaken Chris Lambertz was the ONLY person in community management.
After that, it was pretty much just Sara Marie.
Which also sort of begs the question: why are they letting go a key member from an already woefully understaffed department?
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Edit: Looks like (OPF) was a legal entity only and I was incorrect at Tonya being an actual employee of OPF vs Paizo. Feel free to drop the confusion aspects there as it relates to her!
Oh, the creation of the OPF? Yer welcome. I will neither confirm nor deny I was one of two people who were instrumental in pointing out WA state labor law in relation to volunteers for a for profit company.
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Exactly the opposite, seeing as the problem behaviour was sharing private communicationsUpdate: I actually went back through to check this for you and get a link. Unfortunately, I cannot link you as I misremembered it being a post, but it was a conversation I had and it's not for me to share specific details re: names/etc. So I apologize.
Also, if it was a private conversation aren’t you doing exactly for what you are castigating others?
Eh, you and I could have along drawn out conversation over ethics and blame/guilt regarding behavior regarding sharing information versus alluding to information one can not share for reasons.
Let’s not. :)
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Accusations that I have used offensive slurs about members of the staff are categorically FALSE. Many LGBTQIA+ members of the Paizo staff are close friends of mine, and I would never talk that way about anyone on our staff or in our community.
Since you've left the massive gap open (so to speak)... *would* you talk that way about people outside of your staff or community?
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I'm pretty sad about all of this. I'm inclined to believe Crystal and Jessica, and I'm going to miss Sara Marie and Diego. I want Paizo to do better by its employees.
I just don't know what to think or do beyond that.