So, just to add a small amount of clarity here folks, since I assumed some things were known in my statement.
Jessica was not my boss, nor was I hers. We were coworkers at about the same level on the org chart. The relationship between me and her deteriorated afterwards for a number of reasons, and while my awkwardness over the situation likely contributed, I believe that a huge part of it was office politics over one specific project, an event that damaged my relationship with a number of coworkers, including my boss.
That said, I respect that everyone might see these matters differently and I am not here to tell you to think otherwise. This is my perspective on events of over 6 years ago and I have learned a lot and changed my behaviors in the office since.
For what it's worth, I do believe from all context that this seems to be a one-time screwup rather than like...a history of office creepiness.
I think Jeff posting his "update" before GenCon was the smartest move.
Because there is a pretty good chance that most of the energy here, on these worthy topics, will have dissipated in a few days. And that it will be eclipsed by the GenCon announcements.
And most people will go back to business as usual.
Smartest move is not necessarily best move though. If Paizo's management is unable to change in the direction indicated here, the company will stagnate, or even atrophy.
While other smarter, better, more modern companies, more in tune with the tech-savvy and inclusive zeitgeist, will know success and leave Paizo behind to fade into obscurity.
This crisis is truly an opportunity for Paizo to evolve into a better and ultimately more successful company.
I hope they seize it.
Best of luck to those who left AND to those who stay.
It's very...hrm. This isn't the first time this has happened (drama unfolding right before GenCon) but I doubt it's intentional. Things have had a tendency to fester until the convention is over when these things happen.
It is probably one of those weird coincidences that sucks for everyone involved. I know something bad happens to me around the same time every year and there's no commonality at all between the events. I just kinda instinctually avoid overextending myself near the end of the month of June if I can help it.
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So first, let's look at what her actual claim was.
- Finally (unclear how long after) she goes to talk with his team while he's out of town. Bulmahn had apparently told them not to talk to her.Finally, Mona and I went to talk to his team while he was out of town.
His team told us Bulmahn had instructed them not to talk to me, give me updates, etc. They did not know why.
I want you to reread these portions again, compare them with his statement about communication “completely breaking down” and consider the two states without inventing a persecution complex that neither her statement nor his statement suggest. Don’t inject your own motivations into his head. Just compare the two statements and then I would ask how reading it “from both sides” leads you to dismiss the idea that it was retaliatory.
Secondly, independently, I’d like you to tell me how instructing your staff not to talk to someone who is on the same lateral level of the org chart as you is somehow more or less professional because she worked with you and not for you?
I will not make your job hard. I said my 2 cents and left. Just want you to know you guys are appreciated. I just wish Sara Marie knew how much she was appreciated by us.
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I will not make your job hard. I said my 2 cents and left. Just want you to know you guys are appreciated. I just wish Sar Marie knew how much she was appreciated by us.
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After everything that was initially said and current and former Paizo staff weighing in on their account of things, I’m kind of wondering where everything will go from here. I think some positive outcomes that occurred is the love and support the community and employees have shown for each other, those that took and critical look at themselves and appeared genuine enough to voice that they will do better (which is not easy to admit). I suppose the only thing I can think of is how upper level management will treat their employees going forward. I hope some internal initiatives are taken to address what has been said and that their is some transparency to the community as a form of goodwill. Because despite loving the content that is produced, we all love and care for everyone that works at Paizo
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Well I'm unsure what this is worth - but to chime in...
* Jeff your response was really disappointing.
* People in Paizo speaking up for Jeff - well I wouldn't say anything in a public thread against my boss either - I ... like almost everyone... need to eat and pay bills. Frankly I appreciate your statements but using employees as examples was a bad move on Jeff's part - for these same reasons - and I really and honestly hope your relationships are what you say they are - because I wish the best for you guys.
* Erik - your response was really the way to handle things spot on.
* Jason - Your response shows the you've grown. Good for you and I actually have more respect for you now then I did before this all started - no one is perfect but the ability to accept our past and improve is what it's about.
er - as to the loss of the customer service people - and this is to Paizo as the company.... anyone that can let things spiral into this much of a mess frankly shouldn't be within the same building as customer service. I don't 'demand' anyone get fired - but good lord if you keep the management over customer service after this mess in place you will deserve all that you are getting a glimpse of in the future.
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So first, let's look at what her actual claim was.
Its really difficult as outside party without any involvement in situation to know anything yeah, but I've definitely observed that people exaggerate Price's claims to be even worse than what she said in the first place <_<
There is also that it is legit possible that people have already grown and changed since the events described. Price stopped working at company six years ago and her thread is about long period of time.
There is also possibility that both are speaking truth since they are speaking how they interpreted the events.
Either way I believe people will walk away with different interpretations of what happened based on multiple factors :/ I don't know if I should be, but I feel pretty convinced after reading both's accounts on what happened. There is also that I understand that people always make mistakes they regret (I don't remember doing anything jerk like, but I definitely remember some extremely embarrassing teenage age behavior I still cringe at)
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Its really difficult as outside party without any involvement in situation to know anything yeah, but I've definitely observed that people exaggerate Price's claims to be even worse than what she said in the first place <_<Sometimes for the purposes of dismissing them.
Hmm, I dunno, I have seen some people argue for Price using the exaggerated claims, unless you mean they are doing it on purpose as some sort of spy infiltration thing?
That said, I definitely believe that people who haven't read Price's claims believe she said the exaggerated version and try to dismiss them based on that :/
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So first, let's look at what her actual claim was.
- Finally (unclear how long after) she goes to talk with his team while he's out of town. Bulmahn had apparently told them not to talk to her.Finally, Mona and I went to talk to his team while he was out of town.
His team told us Bulmahn had instructed them not to talk to me, give me updates, etc. They did not know why.
I want you to reread these portions again, compare them with his statement about communication “completely breaking down” and consider the two states without inventing a persecution complex that neither her statement nor his statement suggest. Don’t inject your own motivations into his head. Just compare the two statements and then I would ask how reading it “from both sides” leads you to dismiss the idea that it was retaliatory.
Secondly, independently, I’d like you to tell me how instructing your staff not to talk to someone who is on the same lateral level of the org chart as you is somehow more or less professional because she worked with you and not for you?
I'd really be careful of trying to dig into inter-office politics from 5 years ago that none of us know or understand.
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I thought the head of Customer Service was the one that was fired?
Sara Marie was the customer service manager. Around the beginning of the month they promoted someone to Director of Community and had Sara Marie report directly to them from what I understand.
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I'd really be careful of trying to dig into inter-office politics from 5 years ago that none of us know or understand.
You don’t have to dig far to get to the point that ordering a communication stoppage isn’t the height of professionalism. The person you cut out being your co-worker rather than your subordinate doesn’t change the severity of that act as was claimed by the person I was responding to.
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I'd really be careful of trying to dig into inter-office politics from 5 years ago that none of us know or understand.You don’t have to dig far to get to the point that ordering a communication stoppage isn’t the height of professionalism. The person you cut out being your co-worker rather than your subordinate doesn’t change the severity of that act as was claimed by the person I was responding to.
Respectfully, you do not have nearly enough knowledge to make remotely accurate judgements (nor should you - Jason clearly chose to not share the full details, and that should be respected).
So as noted by Jason, there are quite a few more reasons than that, not to mention inter-office politics that are related to a specific project from 5 years ago, and I don't particularly feel comfortable digging into other peoples' dirty laundry from 5 years ago.
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I thought the head of Customer Service was the one that was fired?Sara Marie was the customer service manager. Around the beginning of the month they promoted someone to Director of Community and had Sara Marie report directly to them from what I understand.
To add to that, apparently, at the same time this new position was created and the hierarchy was changed was also when the employee/manager relationship began deteriorating.
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I'd really be careful of trying to dig into inter-office politics from 5 years ago that none of us know or understand.You don’t have to dig far to get to the point that ordering a communication stoppage isn’t the height of professionalism. The person you cut out being your co-worker rather than your subordinate doesn’t change the severity of that act as was claimed by the person I was responding to.Respectfully, you do not have nearly enough knowledge to make remotely accurate judgements (nor should you - Jason clearly chose to not share the full details, and that should be respected).
So as noted by Jason, there are quite a few more reasons than that, not to mention inter-office politics that are related to a specific project from 5 years ago, and I don't particularly feel comfortable digging into other peoples' dirty laundry from 5 years ago.
Respectfully, I’m not digging into it. I’m saying that the truly bad faith response posted by the person I was actually talking with that the actions Jason was accused of are more okay because Jessica worked with him but not for him is absolutely ridiculous.
This is the third time in two days you have entered into a conversation I’m having with someone else to demand I ignore the conversation I’m engaged with so that I can give unnecessary deference to the accused in a conversation that in no way needs that context and is in no way a conversation about what you think it is.
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I think I'm reaching the point where I really need to distance myself from this conversation and take step back :( Like all of this has really made my anxiety flare up a ton. I really hope necessary steps to address the extremely troubling stuff is taken, but for now I'm going to try to stabilize my own mental well being
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To add to that, apparently, at the same time this new position was created and the hierarchy was changed was also when the employee/manager relationship began deteriorating.I thought the head of Customer Service was the one that was fired?Sara Marie was the customer service manager. Around the beginning of the month they promoted someone to Director of Community and had Sara Marie report directly to them from what I understand.
And previous to that, Sara was community and customer service manager - so it was effectively a demotion of someone with a stellar record in community management.
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I do not recall Community Manager being a title belonging to Sara Marie or anyone else for that matter, but I could be wrong. For as long as I can remember Sara Marie was the Customer Service manager. Of course at Paizo, most employees wind up doing some work that might be considered outside their primary purview so it could just be semantics. OTOH, given there are claims that Sara Marie was aggressively advocating for her department and her manager (Jeff) was not interested, it could be inferred that the position of Community Manager was created specifically with the intention to create a buffer between the two of them and the new manager's relationship with Sara Marie was no better (perhaps even worse) and it was that which caused the termination. Some even suggest that the hierarchy was changed specifically so someone else (a woman) could more "easily" terminate Sara Marie without it becoming a gender-relations issue.
I am not saying any of that is true, just that it is floating around in various places with varying degrees of Substance.
Starfinder Senior Developer
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I do not recall Community Manager being a title belonging to Sara Marie or anyone else for that matter, but I could be wrong.
Check the credits sections of our products, especially in the past several years where folks directly involved in a creating book’s contents are at the front, and all staff are printed alongside the OGL at the back. Sara Marie is listed as “Customer Service & Community Manager.”
I'd really be careful of trying to dig into inter-office politics from 5 years ago that none of us know or understand.You don’t have to dig far to get to the point that ordering a communication stoppage isn’t the height of professionalism. The person you cut out being your co-worker rather than your subordinate doesn’t change the severity of that act as was claimed by the person I was responding to.Respectfully, you do not have nearly enough knowledge to make remotely accurate judgements (nor should you - Jason clearly chose to not share the full details, and that should be respected).
So as noted by Jason, there are quite a few more reasons than that, not to mention inter-office politics that are related to a specific project from 5 years ago, and I don't particularly feel comfortable digging into other peoples' dirty laundry from 5 years ago.
Respectfully, I’m not digging into it. I’m saying that the truly bad faith response posted by the person I was actually talking with that the actions Jason was accused of are more okay because Jessica worked with him but not for him is absolutely ridiculous.
This is the third time in two days you have entered into a conversation I’m having with someone else to demand I ignore the conversation I’m engaged with so that I can give unnecessary deference to the accused in a conversation that in no way needs that context and is in no way a conversation about what you think it is.
So you're saying you're not trying to push the idea that it was retaliatory (for being turned down) by taking the act and stripping out the fact that you know absolutely none of the relevant context? The thing that is clearly buried deep in whatever office politics that were going on at the time, that we don't know anyone's place in, including Jessica's?
Because that really looks to me like what you're doing.
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Something worth noting, I feel: this message from Jeff is a message board post, not a post on the Paizo blog. If you're not a member of this forum community, and come to see what's up with Paizo after seeing the discussion elsewhere? There's no official statement.
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I think Jeff posting his "update" before GenCon was the smartest move.
Because there is a pretty good chance that most of the energy here, on these worthy topics, will have dissipated in a few days. And that it will be eclipsed by the GenCon announcements.
And most people will go back to business as usual.
Smartest move is not necessarily best move though. If Paizo's management is unable to change in the direction indicated here, the company will stagnate, or even atrophy.
While other smarter, better, more modern companies, more in tune with the tech-savvy and inclusive zeitgeist, will know success and leave Paizo behind to fade into obscurity.
This crisis is truly an opportunity for Paizo to evolve into a better and ultimately more successful company.
I hope they seize it.
Best of luck to those who left AND to those who stay.
It's very...hrm. This isn't the first time this has happened (drama unfolding right before GenCon) but I doubt it's intentional. Things have had a tendency to fester until the convention is over when these things happen.
It is probably one of those weird coincidences that sucks for everyone involved. I know something bad happens to me around the same time every year and there's no commonality at all between the events. I just kinda instinctually avoid overextending myself near the end of the month of June if I can help it.
I did not mean that Sara Marie was fired just before GenCon on purpose.
I meant that those who pushed internally for a communication from Jeff about all this ruckus before GenCon were smart.
Now, come to think of it, taking some unpopular decisions quietly just before GenCon is a very cunning move.
Not classy, not showing great real company values, but cunning.
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There's no official statement.
I wouldn't expect one. For the relatively small community aware of recent events, we are keenly aware of the current state and where to look for information. The the VAST majority of their customer community who are completely unaware of what has happened, why would they want to bring more attention to it by creating a blog? [u]WE[/u] might want a wider net, but there is zero reason for them to it, at least until they determine how widespread this really will become. Countless people have already said they didn't even know who most of those involved even were. They just buy the books and play the game. Even though this might be a huge issue for the most devoted of the fanbase, it is certainly a minority of their overall customer community, perhaps a very small minority.
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So you're saying you're not trying to push the idea that it was retaliatory (for being turned down) by taking the act and stripping out the fact that you know absolutely none of the relevant context?
No. I’m not saying that AT ALL. As I previously indicated, and if you were reading the posts you are picking apart instead of trying to spin everything into an exoneration of your favorite game company you would know that.
I have said THREE TIMES that what I’m saying is that I balk at the other posters claim that it was “less bad because she worked with him not for him” Again, I take issue with the idea that they are co-workers not employer/employee excuses the behavior to any degree.
Take Paizo and Jason and Jessica out of it. If as she claims you order your employees to stop talking to someone else in the company - is it more forgivable when it’s a lateral employee rather than another of your own reports? No. Ordering your employees to not talk to another member of the company is just as bad in both cases.
If as he claims it was a complete breakdown in communications - is it more forgivable when it’s a lateral employee rather than another of your own reports? No. Again it is just as bad.
That is the point I was making. Insert yourself into an exchange I’m having with someone else so that you can assign to me words and intentions that are not my own one more time to in order to push some sympathy for the devil, both sideism, agenda where we have to take the response of the accused as absolute truth and ignore the statement of the accuser and I will flag it as harassment. Clear?
Now, thank you for ensuring another conversation I’m having with someone who is not you will surely be deleted in the next sweep by the mods.
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There's no official statement.I wouldn't expect one. For the relatively small community aware of recent events, we are keenly aware of the current state and where to look for information. The the VAST majority of their customer community who are completely unaware of what has happened, why would they want to bring more attention to it by creating a blog? [u]WE[/u] might want a wider net, but there is zero reason for them to it, at least until they determine how widespread this really will become. Countless people have already said they didn't even know who most of those involved even were. They just buy the books and play the game. Even though this might be a huge issue for the most devoted of the fanbase, it is certainly a minority of their overall customer community, perhaps a very small minority.
Well, one would hope Paizo has values it stands for.
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That depends on how thoroughly you believe the allegations that have been levied.
I'm inclined to believe workers, broadly, especially given that the allegations I'm most concerned over have two sources. Corporations are not your friend, even one I like as much as Paizo - it's not difficult to imagine transphobic management actions pretty much anywhere with a hierarchy, IMO.
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Then doesn't that mean you are placing your values hopes on the people who are the subject of the allegations and who are denying they ever occurred? Its pretty much what I've been saying all along that people are expecting changes from the same management team that does not believe they have done much of anything wrong. It just doesn't make sense that they will have a sudden epiphany and change of conscious. That its been going on for so many years and the same people are in charge seems fairly clear to me that nothing will change.
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Then doesn't that mean you are placing your values hopes on the people who are the subject of the allegations and who are denying they ever occurred? Its pretty much what I've been saying all along that people are expecting changes from the same management team that does not believe they have done much of anything wrong. It just doesn't make sense that they will have a sudden epiphany and change of conscious. That its been going on for so many years and the same people are in charge seems fairly clear to me that nothing will change.
I don't remember asking you to try and convince me.
I'm a trans woman. I'm allowed to believe allegations of workplace transphobia.
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Sure, you can believe whatever you want. I'm just trying to understand how these situations are viewed. It just looks to me like two people, one of whom is trans has claimed the transphobia occurred and because of her/their(?) stance in the community you have decided to believe her. Okay, that's fine, I'm not saying you shouldn't. But then how do we resolve the fact that at least five current and two former employees, at least some of whom I would expect have acquired at least a modicum of respect themselves, including one trans (I think*) have stated in various states of directness that neither Jeff nor anyone else, to their knowledge or experience has ever done these things, we dismiss their position outright.
Though most of us would agree that the "I cannot be homophobic because I have gay friends" is one of the most ridiculous things said in recent memory.
*I only say that because I do not know all the individuals who have gotten involved but since we seem to give more weight to the experiences and commentary of those from marginalized communities it mean we often have to be aware of who they are so we are especially careful not to silence their voice even by accident.
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Sure, you can believe whatever you want. I'm just trying to understand how these situations are viewed. It just looks to me like two people, one of whom is trans has claimed the transphobia occurred and because of her/their(?) stance in the community you have decided to believe her. Okay, that's fine, I'm not saying you shouldn't. But then how do we resolve the fact that at least five current and two former employees, at least some of whom I would expect have acquired at least a modicum of respect themselves, including one trans (I think*) have stated in various states of directness that neither Jeff nor anyone else, to their knowledge or experience has ever done these things, we dismiss their position outright.
Though most of us would agree that the "I cannot be homophobic because I have gay friends" is one of the most ridiculous things said in recent memory.
*I only say that because I do not know all the individuals who have gotten involved but since we seem to give more weight to the experiences and commentary of those from marginalized communities it mean we often have to be aware of who they are so we are especially careful not to silence their voice even by accident.
Why are you asking me to answer that for you?
It reads as you hounding me to justify being upset about potential transphobia, and if that's not your intent, kindly stop responding to me. I'm not here to be interrogated.
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But then how do we resolve the fact that at least five current and two former employees, at least some of whom I would expect have acquired at least a modicum of respect themselves, including one trans (I think*) have stated in various states of directness that neither Jeff nor anyone else, to their knowledge or experience has ever done these things, we dismiss their position outright.
Could you please direct us to these seven statements refuting Crystal’s claims, because last I saw they hadn’t been addressed.
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But then how do we resolve the fact that at least five current and two former employees, at least some of whom I would expect have acquired at least a modicum of respect themselves, including one trans (I think*) have stated in various states of directness that neither Jeff nor anyone else, to their knowledge or experience has ever done these things, we dismiss their position outright.
Last I checked, what was said was that Jeff had never said anything derogatory about members of the LGBTQIA+ community.
While that may be the case, that does not prevent there from being past (or present) policies that discriminate against trans people, as well as other possible harm caused. As well, even if there isn't active discrimination, there can still be unconscious discrimination that should be looked into.
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Then doesn't that mean you are placing your values hopes on the people who are the subject of the allegations and who are denying they ever occurred? Its pretty much what I've been saying all along that people are expecting changes from the same management team that does not believe they have done much of anything wrong. It just doesn't make sense that they will have a sudden epiphany and change of conscious. That its been going on for so many years and the same people are in charge seems fairly clear to me that nothing will change.
Does not mean it will never change.
In fact now would be the best moment to do so. There are several things happening these days that depict to me the picture of a company bound to self-destruction.
I do not wish Paizo to self-destruct but to grow in all possible ways (money, fame, working conditions, honest adhesion to values ...). Remember that a company is also a community of human people, not even counting customers.
Passcode : "Evolve or Die."
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Though most of us would agree that the "I cannot be homophobic because I have gay friends" is one of the most ridiculous things said in recent memory.Well, he didn't say that, it's just how some of you spin it.
Accusations that I have used offensive slurs about members of the staff are categorically FALSE. Many LGBTQIA+ members of the Paizo staff are close friends of mine, and I would never talk that way about anyone on our staff or in our community.
It is on the first page, a few posts below the OP.
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Though most of us would agree that the "I cannot be homophobic because I have gay friends" is one of the most ridiculous things said in recent memory.Well, he didn't say that, it's just how some of you spin it.
You're right, he said "we have gay employees, some of whom are my friends".
I'm not sure I'd say that's better.
Something worth noting, I feel: this message from Jeff is a message board post, not a post on the Paizo blog. If you're not a member of this forum community, and come to see what's up with Paizo after seeing the discussion elsewhere? There's no official statement.
Of note, Paizo has on social media linked to that post as a statement.
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SEBASTIAN, THEY'VE FOUND YOU - RUN, I'LL HOLD THEM OFF UNTIL YOU'RE SAFE
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I'm now fully expecting Mikaze to return.
I'm here, too! And watching things. I don't have anything useful to say that hasn't already been said, but I stand with Sara, Diego and Crystal.
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Oh I can assure you that the oxygen would be there even without JP. The mistreatment of Sara has lead to an (re)awakening of legendary forum tro....vocal discussants such as Sebastian, Steve, TOZ, Freehold and myself, and coupled will all those young punks, it's more than enough to shake the house. The amount of old farts from 2011 who posted within the last 48h stuff that started with "I haven't posted in 10 years but this situation..." is so high that I feel like at an retirement home. Except, of course, the inhabitants are much louder, and they won't go down without a fight.I hate when I'm right, but this is exactly what I predicted: Jessica being a part of this story means we're about to have a American left wing vs. right wing battle instead of discussing the firing of Sara, Diego's resignation and the issues and allegations brought up by Anybody But Jessica.Yes but without Jessica's tweets the oxygen never would have gotten to this story - it would have just been something talked about amongst us forum posters and absolutely nothing would have come of it - just like the time Jeff doxxed a poster for complaining.
I didn't know I was legendary.
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Better plan would have been to remain silent. Let the internet rage machine tire itself out. Twitter will move on to the next nontroversy in a week.Sure, if you think Paizo has the attention of the greater whole of Twitter discourse. I'd bet my bookshelf nobody outside of Paizo fans and maybe some of the larger TTRPG community has even heard about it, much less cares. Most of the D&D community seems tied up in some Critical Role thing. So outside of here, a couple of hashtags, and a handful of discords, nobody cares.
It follows that every sub cancellation is lost money that was guaranteed direct sales. Every lost PFS GM represents lost sales in scenarios, maps, minis, books, and the good will built by engaged GMs. Every beloved employee or freelancer is talent that at best represents lost production value and passion. Every content creator who doesn't wanted to be associated with the brand after silence in the face of multiple accusations is a huge loss in free advertising.
Good will is hard to earn, harder to keep. Silence just confirms that everything damning thing was true to their strongest supporters.
Considering that the first I heard of this was from a university student who isnt a gamer, I think it is naive to think only Paizo customers are concerned about this. It was a point of discussion in a class about publishing.
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Then doesn't that mean you are placing your values hopes on the people who are the subject of the allegations and who are denying they ever occurred? Its pretty much what I've been saying all along that people are expecting changes from the same management team that does not believe they have done much of anything wrong. It just doesn't make sense that they will have a sudden epiphany and change of conscious. That its been going on for so many years and the same people are in charge seems fairly clear to me that nothing will change.I don't remember asking you to try and convince me.
I'm a trans woman. I'm allowed to believe allegations of workplace transphobia.
Exactly this. There's way too many people telling us how to feel about this.
Anyway, day 3 of my asking for answers regarding trans employee policy. You can never say a bad word and still have transphobic employee policy.
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Don’t play with me heart, Comrade Bag-that-looks-like-another-bag-but-for-legal-and-copyright-reasons-is-not- that-bag.I'm now fully expecting Mikaze to return.
I'm here, too! And watching things. I don't have anything useful to say that hasn't already been said, but I stand with Sara, Diego and Crystal.