What happens to my Summoner / Eidolon if...

[Gizmo the Enemy of Mankind]

Paizo goes into detail about how certain conditions affect the summoner's actions while the eidolon is manifested, but is less clear about how to treat your connection when you unmanifest them and "your eidolon's physical form dissolves." (SoM p52)

- 1.) What happens if my eidolon is taking persistent damage and I suddenly Unmanifest them?

- 2.) What happens if my eidolon has an ongoing affliction and I suddenly Unmanifest them?

One thing Paizo did was provide each eidolon entry with a home plane: "Where it goes when unmanifested. This can help you determine the effects of abilities dependent on a creature's home plane, such as banishment." (SoM p58)

I play an arcane summoner, "Arcane eidolons are usually formed of mental essence, also known as astral essence." (SoM p58) My summoner's eidolon is a dragon, so presumably the dragon is formed by mental/astral essence. The Dragon Eidolon's entry goes into more specifics, "Because dragons have a strong connection to magic, their minds can often leave an echo floating in the Astral Plane. Such an entity is extremely powerful but unable to interact with the outside world on its own. Dragon eidolons manifest in the powerful, scaled forms they had in life; most take the form of true dragons (albeit smaller), but some manifest as drakes or other draconic beings." (SoM p64) So I guess that means that my dragon eidolon exists as an echo of a dragon's mind while in the Astral Plane. I can still communicate with her in this state too, "Your connection with your eidolon allows you to communicate with it telepathically at all times, even when it isn't manifested."

So if she is afflicted with a physical condition, such as persistent bleed damage, what happens to this bleed damage if I Unmanifest her? What happens with a mental affliction? According to the Gamemastery Guide, "Travelers within the Astral find the plane untouched by the passage of time, a property exploited by many mortals fearing old age. Time, however, is not easily escaped, and upon exiting the Astral Plane, a creature finds this debt catching up to them, potentially aging to dust in moments." (GG p140) So.... If I Unmanifest my dragon while she's bleeding, poisoned, cursed, or diseased, would those effects just pause once she's sent to the Astral Plane, then retroactively impose any damage or penalties she would have suffered in the interim as soon as my summoner Manifests her back to the Material Plane?

And that's just one type of eidolon to consider, what about the others? Several call the Material Plane home, do they work differently? What happens to your eidolon/summoner if [X] happens?

[breithauptclan]

I think you are right that the rules don't actually define it. The description of 'your Eidolon's physical form dissolves' feels more like flavor rather than mechanical rules. Also the rules for passage of time on the Astral plane are also only for the official Golarian setting's Astral plane. A home game's custom setting could have different rules.

With that huge disclaimer out of the way, I feel that the Eidolon's physical form does in fact cease to exist on the material plane (at least as a part of the Eidolon - the mass may in fact still be existent in some fashion) so any physical conditions that are being applied to that body stop having any effect when the Eidolon unmanifests.

So persistent damage, diseases, many curses and the like will stop having any effect. The acid/fire/toxins/etc simply don't make the transition to the other plane.

Unless they affect the spirit of the Eidolon, or affect both the Eidolon and Summoner. Some curses may affect the spirit, so would still continue to affect the Eidolon after being unmanifested. And some conditions when applied to the Eidolon may end up affecting both the Eidolon and Summoner. I think Doomed would, though probably not Drained since the Eidolon has its own ability modifiers.

[Gizmo the Enemy of Mankind]

That's a good point about the setting. I suppose a homebrewed setting would substitute their own home plane or interpretation in the same way they would substitute a cleric's deity.

Something does feel off with the idea that I could unmanifest my eidolon to avoid a nasty poison or disease. I agree a curse would certainly continue as those are magical and most curses need to be actively removed. But consider if my eidolon were infected with Ghoul Fever. It doesn't strike me as correct that I could cleanse them of the disease by simply unmanifesting and remanifesting them. Petrified and paralysed are a couple other conditions with large ramifications.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the condition or affliction would pick up where it left off; that's what sounds the most balanced at least....But there's no text to confirm or deny this.

[breithauptclan]

Gizmo the Enemy of Mankind wrote:

But there's no text to confirm or deny this.

Yes. And that is both good and bad.

Bad, because that means that you can't be sure that the other people you play with are going to agree with your character concepts and expectations.

Good, because it allows for more character concepts to be available without actually breaking or changing any rules.

If the Eidolon concept is a physical creature that generally lives on a different plane and is actually plane shifted back and forth, then yes, it makes sense that diseases, bleeding wounds, or even persistent damage would continue after being unmanifested.

On the other hand, if the Eidolon is just a spirit or intelligence that the summoner creates a temporary body for when manifesting it, then it makes sense that any bodily injuries or conditions that get applied to that temporary body end when the Eidolon is unmanifested.

And both concepts are valid according to the printed rules.

[Deriven Firelion]

If it is an affliction like a curse or something, it would remain with them every time you manifest them until they get rid of it. I would roll the damage or effect to it every time you manifested it. It would not naturally disappear. The penalty for an affliction like a curse or disease would last until it remained manifested long enough to get over it naturally or it is removed by other means.

Persistent damage is a trickier problem. It depends on how fast it was brought back. I wouldn't let a summoner get rid of the eidolon and summon it back next round with no persistent damage. If it were gone for an extended period of time beyond an encounter, then I would let the persistent damage end with no real effect. If it was brought back within the encounter, then it would continue to suffer the damage until it was ended with the flat check.

[YuriP]

I think that Paizo need to add to an errata what's happen in many unmanifest situations. What's happen to buffs too? If the eidolon 0 the HPs the summoners beings dying or just become unconscious?

While this and many questions aren't answered you need to agree with your GM how these will work. Some GMs will be more permissive and will allow unmanifest works like a status reset while others for the sake of balance will not, some will count the duraction of buffs while been unmanifested others not.

Personally I tend to keep all status, buffs/debuffs working during time the eidolon is not manifest counting to avoid many exploits but I admit that unmanifest as maneuver to avoid many situations a fun way to play with the summoner (in the end this cost 3 actions each time you do this).

[Gortle]

No RAW answer.

However I've been thinking. If we look at the wider lore ... let me give you this quote from Secrets of Magic page21 on Conjuration modern scholars agree that summoning creates facsimiles

If we apply this to manifesting - and manifesting is conjuration - I think we can work out an answer.

The eidolon that manifests is a copy of the eidolon from its home plane/location.

So the eidolon we see is a copy that is created on manifesting, and a copy that is destroyed on unmanifesting. The real eidolon is on its home plane and is safe.

So spells, conditions and effects on it go down when it unmanifests. When it remanifests it is a fresh clean copy, that has whatever hitpoints the Summoner has.

[YuriP]

This make some sense once the eidolon don't have a real body but a manifestation of one. It's like a remote controlled body that's use the spellcaster lifeforce has build blocks. So physical negative status effects would lost after unmanifest.
But for other side the Manifest Eidolon has not only Conjuration trait but also Teleportation trait too. So this can indicate that summoner doesn't creates a new body but instead teleports the original to the currently plane and keeps it there using the summoner's lifeforce.

Based in how the Paizo makes the balance of the things in game I think that probably the last case because I can't imagine the designers allowing a player to cancel all negative status with a just 3-actions lvl 1 feature it's simply too OP (imagine your eidolon being infected by a mortal disease and them you unmanifest it and remanifest in next turn completely cured!)

The only condition I think thats really allowable is when you zero your HP receiving damage from summoner you just become unconscious instead of dying. But maybe also this could be considered too good to be true.

[PossibleCabbage]

My feels-right, GMing from the hip answer would be that unsummoning your Eidolon so it stops bleeding is A-OK (this is a lot of actions to spend for that). But if it's a curse or something more permanent, then you're going to have to deal with it until you can end it some other wya.

[Gortle]

YuriP wrote:

This make some sense once the eidolon don't have a real body but a manifestation of one. It's like a remote controlled body that's use the spellcaster lifeforce has build blocks. So physical negative status effects would lost after unmanifest.

But for other side the Manifest Eidolon has not only Conjuration trait but also Teleportation trait too. So this can indicate that summoner don't creates a new body but instead teleports the original to the currently plane and keeps it there using the summoner's lifeforce.

Well thus may help us understand the situation where the Gnoll summoner, melds into his tiny Fey eidolon. Which superficially is impossible on a size basis.

[Gizmo the Enemy of Mankind]

Gortle wrote:

let me give you this quote from Secrets of Magic page21 on Conjuration modern scholars agree that summoning creates facsimiles

If we apply this to manifesting - and manifesting is conjuration - I think we can work out an answer.

The eidolon that manifests is a copy of the eidolon from its home plane/location.

This is a good bit of lore to keep in mind, but I'd add that, just after the Manifest Eidolon activity, the text states that "Your eidolon is no mere minion. It doesn't have the minion or summoned trait, and the two of you work together and coordinate your actions." (SoM p52) And, as YuriP points out,

Gortle wrote:

But for other side the Manifest Eidolon has not only Conjuration trait but also Teleportation trait too. So this can indicate that summoner doesn't creates a new body but instead teleports the original to the currently plane and keeps it there using the summoner's lifeforce.

The teleportation trait says, "Teleportation effects allow you to instantaneously move from one point in space to another. Teleportation does not usually trigger reactions based on movement." (CR p637)

So this seems to imply that the eidolon's physical body (or whatever essence/substance it's body is made of) is moved to its home plane. Since moving doesn't end a condition, I'm inclined to believe that any effects the eidolon currently carries will travel along with it unless moving to a new location would end the effect (as it would were you grabbed or engulfed).

[HumbleGamer]

I don't think the eidolon is a copy.

Summoner's Precaution

Quote:

You create a buffer in the link between yourself and your eidolon in order to prevent you from falling alongside your bonded ally. You gain the following reaction; after using it, the spell ends.

Sever Conduit Reaction (concentrate)
Trigger Your eidolon takes damage that would bring you to 0 Hit Points and comes from an effect other than a death effect

Effect You quickly shut the buffer in your link with your eidolon, causing your bonded ally to wink out of existence before you can be laid low. Your eidolon unmanifests, and you can't Manifest your Eidolon for 1 minute. In exchange, you don't take the triggering damage, though your eidolon still suffers any other adverse effects that accompanied the damage

So, it seems that an eidolon who was bitten from a snake would still be poisoned once unmanifested.

This seems to mean that once unmanifested, the eidolon simply returns to his world. And that the the manifested eidolon is the real one.

[Gizmo the Enemy of Mankind]

HumbleGamer wrote:

I don't think the eidolon is a copy.

Summoner's Precaution

Quote:

You create a buffer in the link between yourself and your eidolon in order to prevent you from falling alongside your bonded ally. You gain the following reaction; after using it, the spell ends.

Sever Conduit Reaction (concentrate)
Trigger Your eidolon takes damage that would bring you to 0 Hit Points and comes from an effect other than a death effect

Effect You quickly shut the buffer in your link with your eidolon, causing your bonded ally to wink out of existence before you can be laid low. Your eidolon unmanifests, and you can't Manifest your Eidolon for 1 minute. In exchange, you don't take the triggering damage, though your eidolon still suffers any other adverse effects that accompanied the damage

So, it seems that an eidolon who was bitten from a snake would still be poisoned once unmanifested.

This seems to mean that once unmanifested, the eidolon simply returns to his world. And that the the manifested eidolon is the real one.

Nice find! This would suggest that the effect persists after the eidolon is unmanifested.

[Gortle]

Gizmo the Enemy of Mankind wrote:

Gortle wrote:

let me give you this quote from Secrets of Magic page21 on Conjuration modern scholars agree that summoning creates facsimiles

If we apply this to manifesting - and manifesting is conjuration - I think we can work out an answer.

The eidolon that manifests is a copy of the eidolon from its home plane/location.

This is a good bit of lore to keep in mind, but I'd add that, just after the Manifest Eidolon activity, the text states that "Your eidolon is no mere minion. It doesn't have the minion or summoned trait, and the two of you work together and coordinate your actions." (SoM p52) And, as YuriP points out,

Gortle wrote:

But for other side the Manifest Eidolon has not only Conjuration trait but also Teleportation trait too. So this can indicate that summoner doesn't creates a new body but instead teleports the original to the currently plane and keeps it there using the summoner's lifeforce.

The teleportation trait says, "Teleportation effects allow you to instantaneously move from one point in space to another. Teleportation does not usually trigger reactions based on movement." (CR p637)

So this seems to imply that the eidolon's physical body (or whatever essence/substance it's body is made of) is moved to its home plane. Since moving doesn't end a condition, I'm inclined to believe that any effects the eidolon currently carries will travel along with it unless moving to a new location would end the effect (as it would were you grabbed or engulfed).

It is both Conjuration and Teleportation.

Conjuration (and summoning in particular) is about facsimiles, and Teleportation movement. So yes both are involved. Go read page 22 of Secrets of Magic the whole section on Conjuration magic in the book/pdf. I'm not going to replicate it here because Paizo have not chosen to release it online. But it goes into this.

You could choose to think about one magical tag and not the other, but because Conjuration is involved at all I think we have to come to the conclusion that the Eidolon that manifests is a least partially a facsimile of the Eidolon, that somehow contains the essense of the Eidolon.

If you have a different theory about it and work it out with your GM then that is a really good thing to do. Perhaps different ways of seeing it are valid. At least they will allow you to tell a different type of story about the Eidolon Summoner relationship.

[Squiggit]

Gortle wrote:

You could choose to think about one magical tag and not the other, but because Conjuration is involved at all I think we have to come to the conclusion that the Eidolon that manifests is a least partially a facsimile of the Eidolon, that somehow contains the essense of the Eidolon.

Have to? No not really. Summoning facsimiles is one aspect of conjuration, but far from all of it.

I mean, do you know what other spells have the Conjuration and Teleportation traits? Teleport, Dimensional Door, Blink Charge, Plane Shift, Gate. None of these spells have anything to do with creating facsimiles, rather they're all about transporting things over a distance or between dimensions.

The fact that the aforementioned reaction that lets you instantly unmanifest your eidolon explicitly doesn't protect them from conditions seems to lend furhter credence to the notion that you are, in fact, manifesting the creature proper and not creating a creature out of thin air.

[Gortle]

Squiggit wrote:

Gortle wrote:

You could choose to think about one magical tag and not the other, but because Conjuration is involved at all I think we have to come to the conclusion that the Eidolon that manifests is a least partially a facsimile of the Eidolon, that somehow contains the essense of the Eidolon.

Have to? No not really. Summoning facsimiles is one aspect of conjuration, but far from all of it.

I mean, do you know what other spells have the Conjuration and Teleportation traits? Teleport, Dimensional Door, Blink Charge, Plane Shift, Gate. None of these spells have anything to do with creating facsimiles, rather they're all about transporting things over a distance or between dimensions.

The fact that the aforementioned reaction that lets you instantly unmanifest your eidolon explicitly doesn't protect them from conditions seems to lend furhter credence to the notion that you are, in fact, manifesting the creature proper and not creating a creature out of thin air.

Yes I totally agree it is not clear cut and you have to look at all the rules. There is a different word in play here called Manifest. The class is Summoner. The tags are Conujration and Teleportation.

But these tags give you give you hints to create a logic as to what is going on with the spell. I do think we have to look at least partially to normal Summoning spells to understand it.

Think through it. I can't prove anything. But when the rules are not perscriptive we have to come up with an understanding to cover these situations. If you aren't prepared to do that, then ok this sort of logic is never going to be of any use to you.

If the Eidolon was Teleported only. Then why wouldn't it have separate hitpoints? Why would those hit points reset when it remanifiest again.

The Eidolon is clearly its own being that exists on a separate plane (or location). In regular Summons the real creature is not here, just a copy of it. Why not the same here.

The Summoner and Eidolon can communicate telepathically at all times, even when not manifested.

What happens to the Summoner when he Melds into the Eidolon? Isn't that a created body, not a merely a teleport effect. There are no transmuation or polymorph tags here. Somehow the Summoner dissappears and inhabits a created body. Maybe you can view the Summoner as being at the Eidolons original location, while his consciousness is present locally.

Maybe its not conclusive. But you have to choose some form of logic and rule consistently in that way.

[Gizmo the Enemy of Mankind]

What happens to my eidolon if... it doesn't eat or doesn't drink? Does a being composed of [fancy-sounding] essence really need those scooby snacks? I'm not made of snacks, get a job you freeloader!

[Gortle]

Ok. I have found a rules solution to this question. It is not the answer I was expecting but here it is.

Its in the Summoner Dedication feat in the text where it is talking about a Rogue taking a eidolon. it says Rogue summoners gain a partner in crime that can disappear when necessary, providing the eidolon with the ultimate getaway as long as no one expects it to carry back loot from a heist.

Hmm - what do people think of this?

[Cordell Kintner]

I read "as long as no one expects it to carry back loot from a heist." as meaning when they disappear they drop everything, since it immediately follows the "ultimate getaway" part. Imagine if the eidolon gets cornered with a bunch of gems, and you un-manifest it for it to escape. If it were carrying stuff it would all drop and you would lose it. However, if what you're saying is correct then why not load up the eidolon, un-manifest it, and manifest it back in a safe place? It wouldn't make sense to not expect them to carry stuff when they can just teleport to another plane and back with all the loot.

[Gortle]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

I read "as long as no one expects it to carry back loot from a heist." as meaning when they disappear they drop everything, since it immediately follows the "ultimate getaway" part. Imagine if the eidolon gets cornered with a bunch of gems, and you un-manifest it for it to escape. If it were carrying stuff it would all drop and you would lose it. However, if what you're saying is correct then why not load up the eidolon, un-manifest it, and manifest it back in a safe place? It wouldn't make sense to not expect them to carry stuff when they can just teleport to another plane and back with all the loot.

Ok. Maybe I misread that. Edited my post to leave it open.

But is this what I think it is? Support for Teleportation, or support for the Eidolon being a Conjuration facsimile? Or is it just an Eidolon can't use items?

[graystone]

To me, it reads that you can un-manifest it without worry since it's not carrying stuff. IMO, it's suggesting that it can't keep items when it vanishes. I don't think it's saying anything past that.

For instance, an Eidolon can provide a distraction, grabbing an item and running past some guards while the rogue sneaks past the guards. Once inside, the rogue un-manifest it, where it vanishes right in front of the guards [and drops the item] and the rogue can re-manifest it when needed.

[Timeshadow]

graystone wrote:

To me, it reads that you can un-manifest it without worry since it's not carrying stuff. IMO, it's suggesting that it can't keep items when it vanishes. I don't think it's saying anything past that.

For instance, an Eidolon can provide a distraction, grabbing an item and running past some guards while the rogue sneaks past the guards. Once inside, the rogue un-manifest it, where it vanishes right in front of the guards [and drops the item] and the rogue can re-manifest it when needed.

Even better why use actions to unmanifest just have you or your Eidolon move so it's out of range then it auto unmanifests.

[Ravingdork]

In regards to persistent damage, I would probably count the actions to unmanifest the eidolon as an attempt at assisted recovery.

[Exton Land]

What about death? Lets say my Eidolon gets hit by a death effect and brought to 0 HP. They dead. But are they really? If I get some HP from a heal spell, can I just manifest them again on my turn?

Please note, unlike animal companions and familiars there doesn't appear to be language about getting another eidolon...