Questions about reach / cover, disrupting subordinate actions, and Wooden Double.


Rules Discussion


Hello everyone.

One of my players has a twisting tree magus, and while playing today's session some questions have popped up, hope you can help me get some clarity:

- As a twisting tree magus, she has reach with the staff while using it two-handed. During one of the combats, she attacked an enemy 10 feet away, with an ally standing between her and the enemy. Does the enemy get the lesser cover bonus? (+1 to AC)

- One of the enemies in that combat had the Reactive Strike ability and 10-foot reach. When the magus used Spellstrike, the ability triggered because the spell used as part of the Cast a Spell subordinate action had the manipulate trait. The enemy got a critical success on the attack roll. Is the whole Spellstrike disrupted, or just the spell? I can't find anything specific about this on the subordinate actions and disrupting actions sections:

Subordinate Actions

Spoiler:

An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but it's modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride. The Stride would still have the move trait, would still trigger reactions that occur based on movement, and so on. The subordinate action doesn't gain any of the traits of the larger action unless specified. The action that allows you to use a subordinate action doesn't require you to spend more actions or reactions to do so; that cost is already factored in.

Using an activity is not the same as using any of its subordinate actions. For example, the quickened condition you get from the haste spell lets you spend an extra action each turn to Stride or Strike, but you couldn't use the extra action for an activity that includes a Stride or Strike. As another example, if you used an action that specified, “If the next action you use is a Strike,” an activity that includes a Strike wouldn't count, because the next thing you are doing is starting an activity, not using the Strike basic action

Disrupting Actions

Spoiler:

Various abilities and conditions, such as a Reactive Strike, can disrupt an action. When an action is disrupted, you still use the actions or reactions you committed and you still expend any costs, but the action's effects don't occur. In the case of an activity, you usually lose all actions spent for the activity up through the end of that turn. For instance, if you began to Cast a Spell requiring 3 actions and the first action was disrupted, you lose all 3 actions that you committed to that activity.

The GM decides what effects a disruption causes beyond simply negating the effects that would have occurred from the disrupted action. For instance, a Leap disrupted midway wouldn't transport you back to the start of your jump, and a disrupted item hand off might cause the item to fall to the ground instead of staying in the hand of the creature who was trying to give it away.

- The magus used the Wooden Double spell to reduce damage received by a critical hit. The spell has this trigger: "You're critically hit by a damage-dealing effect or Strike". Am I right by thinking that you need to decide if you cast this spell before knowing how much damage are you taking? I am not sure because the double basically functions as a shield, with some hardness and hitpoints of its own, and I know the step to use shields is when applying damage (that you already calculated). Is this spell intended to be used in the same step as shields?

Thanks!


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Quote:
- As a twisting tree magus, she has reach with the staff while using it two-handed. During one of the combats, she attacked an enemy 10 feet away, with an ally standing between her and the enemy. Does the enemy get the lesser cover bonus? (+1 to AC)

Yes, as per this example from page 424 (Chapter 8: playing the game/Cover) in Player Core

Quote:
- One of the enemies in that combat had the Reactive Strike ability and 10-foot reach. When the magus used Spellstrike, the ability triggered because the spell used as part of the Cast a Spell subordinate action had the manipulate trait. The enemy got a critical success on the attack roll. Is the whole Spellstrike disrupted, or just the spell? I can't find anything specific about this on the subordinate actions and disrupting actions sections:

Thats... well.. up to GM to decide as written in the text regarding disrupted actions. I have previously ruled it that subordinate actions typically happen in the order they are presented within the activity so this does stop the attack aswell but a GM can rule differently and say that the actual strike still happens as only the spell was disrupted.

Quote:
- The magus used the Wooden Double spell to reduce damage received by a critical hit. The spell has this trigger: "You're critically hit by a damage-dealing effect or Strike". Am I right by thinking that you need to decide if you cast this spell before knowing how much damage are you taking? I am not sure because the double basically functions as a shield, with some hardness and hitpoints of its own, and I know the step to use shields is when applying damage (that you already calculated). Is this spell intended to be used in the same step as shields?

I presume that you do need to decide to use it before you know the damage simply how the trigger is written and how the result of the attack-roll is determined before the damage roll happens.

Ofcourse this part is already ambigious to boot as there are no predefined steps for when triggers take place. One thing that sets it appart from a shield however is that it decays after adsorbing any amount of damage so knowing the damage doesn't give you that much bang for your buck as you don't risk breaking a permanent.

The discussion regarding reaction trigger steps is already hotly debated with how the developers explained shieldblock during the Launch Stream and how there are shields that presume shieldblock happens before Immunities, Weaknesses and resistance. But thats not how most people play the game.

Sovereign Court

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Sc8rpi8n_mjd wrote:
- As a twisting tree magus, she has reach with the staff while using it two-handed. During one of the combats, she attacked an enemy 10 feet away, with an ally standing between her and the enemy. Does the enemy get the lesser cover bonus? (+1 to AC)

Yes, there's nothing special about this just because you're a magus.

Sc8rpi8n_mjd wrote:
- One of the enemies in that combat had the Reactive Strike ability and 10-foot reach. When the magus used Spellstrike, the ability triggered because the spell used as part of the Cast a Spell subordinate action had the manipulate trait. The enemy got a critical success on the attack roll. Is the whole Spellstrike disrupted, or just the spell?

As you quoted, the Disrupting Actions section states:

The GM decides what effects a disruption causes beyond simply negating the effects that would have occurred from the disrupted action. For instance, a Leap disrupted midway wouldn't transport you back to the start of your jump, and a disrupted item hand off might cause the item to fall to the ground instead of staying in the hand of the creature who was trying to give it away.

The spell is simply negated. It's up to you to decide if that bubbles up to also preventing the rest of the spellstrike, so does it also disrupt the strike part?

I would personally rule that only the spell is disrupted. The strike part of a spellstrike doesn't depend on the spell being useful, and a reactive strike can't normally disrupt a strike.

Sc8rpi8n_mjd wrote:
- The magus used the Wooden Double spell to reduce damage received by a critical hit. The spell has this trigger: "You're critically hit by a damage-dealing effect or Strike". Am I right by thinking that you need to decide if you cast this spell before knowing how much damage are you taking? I am not sure because the double basically functions as a shield, with some hardness and hitpoints of its own, and I know the step to use shields is when applying damage (that you already calculated). Is this spell intended to be used in the same step as shields?

The trigger happens when you've determined that the attack would be a critical hit. At that point you haven't rolled damage yet.

It appear look a bit like a shield, but it's not a shield.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Sc8rpi8n_mjd wrote:
- As a twisting tree magus, she has reach with the staff while using it two-handed. During one of the combats, she attacked an enemy 10 feet away, with an ally standing between her and the enemy. Does the enemy get the lesser cover bonus? (+1 to AC)

Yes, there's nothing special about this just because you're a magus.

Sc8rpi8n_mjd wrote:
- One of the enemies in that combat had the Reactive Strike ability and 10-foot reach. When the magus used Spellstrike, the ability triggered because the spell used as part of the Cast a Spell subordinate action had the manipulate trait. The enemy got a critical success on the attack roll. Is the whole Spellstrike disrupted, or just the spell?

As you quoted, the Disrupting Actions section states:

The GM decides what effects a disruption causes beyond simply negating the effects that would have occurred from the disrupted action. For instance, a Leap disrupted midway wouldn't transport you back to the start of your jump, and a disrupted item hand off might cause the item to fall to the ground instead of staying in the hand of the creature who was trying to give it away.

The spell is simply negated. It's up to you to decide if that bubbles up to also preventing the rest of the spellstrike, so does it also disrupt the strike part?

I would personally rule that only the spell is disrupted. The strike part of a spellstrike doesn't depend on the spell being useful, and a reactive strike can't normally disrupt a strike.

Sc8rpi8n_mjd wrote:
- The magus used the Wooden Double spell to reduce damage received by a critical hit. The spell has this trigger: "You're critically hit by a damage-dealing effect or Strike". Am I right by thinking that you need to decide if you cast this spell before knowing how much damage are you taking? I am not sure because the double basically functions as a shield, with some hardness and hitpoints of its own, and I know the step to use shields is when applying damage (that you
...

Agreed

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