Skrayper |
I'm trying to make a 3rd level character for a new game. It has a modern-esque setting, so I'm trying gunslinger out.
I love the idea of dual-wielding pistols, but when it comes time to reload I'm finding it hard to come up with decent ways to pull it off.
One of the key components of the story is that the magic is somewhat of a secret; the harder it is to hide something, the more problematic it will be.
So far I'm seeing:
1. Beneficial Bandoleer - this seems to be pretty common, but it says one round of ammunition for a swift action. If I'm dual-wielding, that should be enough for most combats but an issue for long ones.
2. 1 level of witch, take the prehensile hair hex - this one has some potential flavor, and there is at least one Witch archetype that works off of Wisdom, the same score as the grit.
3. 2 levels of alchemist, take the vestigial arm discovery - interesting, but loses two levels and is impossible to hide barring very bulky clothing or magic.
4. Gun Twirling feat - presuming my GM lets it work like that (free action holster, Rapid Reload to free action reload, Quick Draw to free action load) and we're golden. It's four feats though, so I wouldn't be able to do it at character creation, and means that for a good while I'd have some rough minuses to hit; the flipside is that it means I get to stay in the Gunslinger class for a bit.
5. Buy the gun outright with starting cash and take 3 levels of Trench Fighter, or take 1 level of Gunslinger and 2 levels of Trench Fighter, leaving me 1 level of Fighter away from getting Dex to Damage (the main reason I want Gun Training).
**One caveat - we're playing just 2 players, so it's kind of expected that when we get high enough level one of us take Leadership. It'd be nice to manage a decent Charisma, as I'm sure the other player is not going that route.
So far I'm leaning towards Bandoleer or Witch. It'd be nice if the Mysterious Stranger didn't push Gun Training all the way to level 9; it'd take 11 levels to get Gun Training but I could build nearly everything into Charisma and Dexterity and play a Seducer witch alongside Mysterious Stranger (11 levels because your first hex as a Seducer has to be charm).
I'm kind of leaning towards this:
Str: 7
Dex: 20 (18+Human Bonus)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 16
Level 1: Mysterious Stranger
Level 2: Trench Fighter
Level 3: Trench Fighter
**Future**
Level 4: Trench Fighter
Level 5: Seducer
Level 6: Seducer
Feats:
1st Level: Possessed Hand/Countenanced Carbuncle
Human Bonus: Hand's Autonomy
Fighter Bonus (1st): Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter Bonus (2nd): Rapid Reload
3rd Level: Quick Draw
(Not sold on those last two traits - might get Weapon Focus, get closer to Gun Twirling, or another route)
Traits:
Volatile Fuse (reduce misfire by 1, so even with revolvers I can add alchemical rounds and keep it at a 1)
Rebel Leader (Probably overkill, but hey... "I'm a rebel")
Wicked Leader
(Will be picking a drawback to get the third trait)
Not sure if this is the best route though... trying to theory-craft all of this.
avr |
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If it's really a modern-esque setting just grab guns with a sufficiently large magazine. Even revolvers give you a few rounds before reloading is an issue, and there's pistols with significantly more by WW I.
If it's limited to early firearms despite that description then there's still pistols with 4 shots (paddle-foot) to put off reloading a bit. For that matter you might easily find yourself stuck in melee well before you run out of bullets and it might be better to pull out a couple of shortswords at that point.
Edit: staying out of melee entirely is a dream for archers and maybe musketeers, not pistoleers.
VoodistMonk |
Juggler Bard wrote:
Combat Juggling (Ex)
At 2nd level, a juggler can hold and wield (in other words, “juggle”) up to three items or weapons in his hands. The juggler must be able to hold and wield an object in one hand in order to juggle it.
This ability doesn’t grant the juggler additional attacks, though it does allow him to use different weapons as part of a full attack. As long as he is juggling fewer than three objects, the juggler is considered to have a free hand (for the purposes of drawing a weapon, using somatic components, using Deflect Arrows, and so on). At 6th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the maximum number of objects the juggler can juggle increases by one, to a maximum of seven objects at 18th level.
If the juggler is affected by any action or condition that would require a concentration check while he is juggling, he must attempt a Sleight of Hand check to continue juggling and avoid losing concentration. The check’s DC is the same as a concentration check, treating the spell level as twice the number of objects being juggled.
If the juggler fails his Sleight of Hand check, he drops all juggled objects but one, determined randomly.
This ability replaces versatile performance.
Chell Raighn |
Assuming that your choice of race isn’t heavily restricted, you could play as a race that has a prehensile tail (such as Vanara)… it is a free action to change hands on a weapon, and while the tail can’t “wield” a weapon, nothing stops it from holding one… so you simply transfer one gun to your tail, load the other, swap it back and then hold the now loaded gun with your tail to load the second.
Peg'giz |
Not exactly what you are looking for, but maybe another point of view could be helpfull. :)
I want to play a gunslinger myself for a while and the reload mechanism really anoys me.
I'm playing LARP and use flintlock pistols there. Even if I rush through the reload progress there is NO CHANCE to get out more then one shot in 6 seconds (one combat round).
Because of this I thought about how to "fix" the reload issue for older firearms without nerfing the gunslinger.
My idea is to instead of giving the gunslinger itterative attacks she will get the vital strike feat chain for firearms (and all firearms get a 1 shot/round limitation with a minimum of a move action to reload).
So at level 5 instead of two attacks with each 1d8 she has one attack with 2d8. (3d8 at level 10 etc.)
For dualwielding I would keep it the same, means you can fire both at the first round, dealing massive damage, but then have to take cover to reload them to then blast the next attack.
Belafon |
Volatile Fuse (reduce misfire by 1, so even with revolvers I can add alchemical rounds and keep it at a 1)
Assuming that "revolver" is indeed the item you intend to use, that makes things slightly easier and you don't need alchemical rounds.
It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity. The Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a free action.
Overall, my personal preference is just to take two or three feats:
-Rapid Reload-Quick Draw
-(maybe Quick Stow)*
It means that every now and then you "lose a round to reloading" but it is the simplest, doesn't cost many feats or dips and in practice you aren't going to be full-attacking with both revolvers for multiple consecutive rounds all the time anyway.
Reloading Round
---------------
Sheathe Revolver 1 (move)
Reload Revolver 2 (free)
Draw Revolver 1 (free)
Sheathe Revolver 2 (standard)**
Reload Revolver 1 (free)
Draw Revolver 2 (free)
* I like not provoking while sheathing.
** If your GM doesn't let you sheathe as a standard, then Quick Stow takes care of that by letting you sheathe while moving (and you explicitly can move as a standard).
All you need is Rapid Reload - and enough money to put called on both your revolvers.
Round X
-------
Full-Attack (full-round)
Drop Revolver 1 (free)
Reload Revolver 2 (free)
Call Revolver 1 (swift)
Round Y
-------
Drop Revolver 2 (free)
Reload Revolver 1 (free)
Call Revolver 2 (swift)
Full-Attack (full-round)
Chell Raighn |
Advanced (expensive) reloading:
All you need is Rapid Reload - and enough money to put called on both your revolvers.
Round X
-------
Full-Attack (full-round)
Drop Revolver 1 (free)
Reload Revolver 2 (free)
Call Revolver 1 (swift)Round Y
-------
Drop Revolver 2 (free)
Reload Revolver 1 (free)
Call Revolver 2 (swift)
Full-Attack (full-round)
You do realize that unless your firearm has a high enough capacity to get atleast 2 full round attacks out of it, that this method doesn't hold up past the second round... if you need to reload on round three then you are back to your same steps as on round 2, reloading first, which means you only get 1 revolver reloaded... Two +1 Called Revolvers will cost you nearly all your gold up to level 8 to acquire. At which point your using 2 shots per gun each round, which is fine... but the tipping point comes at 16th level (as any full BAB class) when you get your 4th iterative attack and your mainhand revolver now uses up 4/6 of it's ammo each round. You would either have to decide to drop your last iterative each round or alternate having 2 fewer shots every other round to keep up with this reloading technique from that point onwards.
Temperans |
Is there a reason why Shadowshooting weapon enchantment wouldn't work for at least 1 of the guns? That would at least half the number of rounds needed to reload.
Another option is to have more than 2 guns and literally drop the guns that ran out of ammo. This would generally be wasteful however.
Also yeah, as others have mentioned. If your guns have a large enough magazine then you don't have to worry about reloads for a while. Most of the guns with magazines have 3-6 bullets; While at lv3 you are at most making 2 attacks. That is 3-6 rounds of shooting, in a game where most fights last 1-4.
* P.S. If you ever get to high level, get a Pistol of the Infinite Sky. Those don't have reload or misfire.
VoodistMonk |
One level of any Charisma-based Gunslinger, and two levels of Juggler Bard...
You will get proficiency, a free gun, the Gunsmithing feat, and Charisma-based Grit from the Gunslinger... probably some Deeds, too. And from the Bard, you get all sorts of skills, Will saves, ability to use wands from the Bard list, some Performance stuffs, and of course the ability to literally juggle pistols in combat.
I would take 4 levels of Juggler Bard simply because 3/4 BAB classes do best taken in blocks of 4... but I like Bards, so I would likely just continue as a Bard the rest of my career... unless I really felt the need for Dex-to-damage, then I would go Gunslinger 1/Bard 2/Gunslinger 4/Bard 13...
VoodistMonk |
You could take a dip of arcane caster and try to rely on the Spell Cartridges feat, instead of reloading. That takes up 2 feats and your swift action. But standard reloading options also take feats and end up using swift actions.
I have always wanted to make a Arcane Strike/Blooded Arcane Strike/Spell Cartridges build, but just haven't found anything I like. But entering Bloodrage and immediately having infinite force bullets just seems cool.
Skrayper |
Another option is to have more than 2 guns and literally drop the guns that ran out of ammo. This would generally be wasteful however.
Ah yes, the Overwatch's Reaper Approach :)
-Rapid Reload
-Quick Draw
-(maybe Quick Stow)*
It means that every now and then you "lose a round to reloading" but it is the simplest, doesn't cost many feats or dips and in practice you aren't going to be full-attacking with both revolvers for multiple consecutive rounds all the time anyway.
I may go this route, because - as you said - it's only a couple of feats. It saves taking both Dazzling Display and Gun Twirling - opens up for Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot.
If this is a modern-esque setting, then it'd be a Guns Everywhere setting which means you get Gun Training at 1st level. So play a Mysterious Stranger and take a few levels in Fighter for the feats to get to Gun Twirling.
Thanks for pointing this out - it helps a lot (I shared it with my GM and he agreed it made sense for the campaign setting).
My GM did say Gun Twirling would, technically, work (and made a joke about how fast my hands would be). I'm not seeing a Fighter archetype that's specifically helps, so base fighter might be the way to go.
Assuming that your choice of race isn’t heavily restricted, you could play as a race that has a prehensile tail (such as Vanara)… it is a free action to change hands on a weapon, and while the tail can’t “wield” a weapon, nothing stops it from holding one… so you simply transfer one gun to your tail, load the other, swap it back and then hold the now loaded gun with your tail to load the second.
Also an option. If I did this, I'd probably go Tiefling and take the option for tail over fiendish sorcery. It's definitely an option.
Edit: staying out of melee entirely is a dream for archers and maybe musketeers, not pistoleers.
At this point, this concerns me the most. If we're doing Modern Firearms, the Revolver, Nagant M1895 has a range of 80 (as opposed to the "advanced" firearm revolver, which has a range of 20).
If we're sticking to "advanced" only, then I'm running some risks until Point-Blank Master. Sad, because I'm not getting that for a bit.
I don't know how hard it will be to stay out of melee at short range considering there's only two of us. As sad as it would make me, rifle over twin pistols MIGHT be absolutely necessary for survival. :(
Belafon |
Belafon wrote:You do realize that unless your firearm has a high enough capacity to get atleast 2 full round attacks out of it, that this method doesn't hold up past the second round... if you need to reload on round three then you are back to your same steps as on round 2, reloading first, which means you only get 1 revolver reloaded... Two +1 Called Revolvers will cost you nearly all your gold up to level 8 to acquire. At which point your using 2 shots per gun each round, which is fine... but the tipping point comes at 16th level (as any full BAB class) when you get your 4th iterative attack and your mainhand revolver now uses up 4/6 of it's ammo each round. You would either have to decide to drop your last iterative each round or alternate having 2 fewer shots every other round to keep up with this reloading technique from that point onwards.Advanced (expensive) reloading:All you need is Rapid Reload - and enough money to put called on both your revolvers.
Round X
-------
Full-Attack (full-round)
Drop Revolver 1 (free)
Reload Revolver 2 (free)
Call Revolver 1 (swift)Round Y
-------
Drop Revolver 2 (free)
Reload Revolver 1 (free)
Call Revolver 2 (swift)
Full-Attack (full-round)
The break point is even earlier than level 16 as you will likely have Rapid Shot and possibly haste (boots of speed if not a friendly caster) well before that. Assuming BAB +11, Greater TWF, Rapid Shot, and haste, that's three shots with each weapon and two shots that can be assigned to either weapon each round at level 11.
What I have found in actual play of Paizo-published adventures is that I never needed the ability to fire revolvers at maximum rate for more than a couple of rounds. If combat isn't over after 12 shots from revolvers (and other group actions) then the encounter is complex enough that I will need to take actions other than full-round shooting. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of encounters that take more than 12 shots. But for those it's a matter of managing your shot distribution so you can maximize reload efficiency on the rounds you need to do something else.
Using my 11th level number of shots.
OK, these guys are moving around the corners where I can't see them, that means I will need to move too. But first let me deal with the ones I can see. This round I will fire my GTWF shots and fire the rapid and haste attacks with my left hand. 1 shot remaining in left gun, 3 in right. Do my shtick to reload the left gun. 6 shots remaining in left gun, 3 in right. Next round I move, take one shot with right gun. Do my shtick to reload right gun. 6 shots remaining in each gun.
Similar actions if I think I'm going to need to use a potion, oil, or magic item.
Can you end up in situations where you're missing out on full-attack opportunities? Sure. Just because it wasn't an issue for me doesn't mean it can't happen. But I think the tradeoff is worth it to be able to take the many, many other feats a TWF Gunslinger wants.
Note that I'm specifically talking about Revolvers. It's only the fact that revolvers can take 6 shots without reloading (or using another hand) that makes it work.
Lemartes |
One level of any Charisma-based Gunslinger, and two levels of Juggler Bard...
You will get proficiency, a free gun, the Gunsmithing feat, and Charisma-based Grit from the Gunslinger... probably some Deeds, too. And from the Bard, you get all sorts of skills, Will saves, ability to use wands from the Bard list, some Performance stuffs, and of course the ability to literally juggle pistols in combat.
I would take 4 levels of Juggler Bard simply because 3/4 BAB classes do best taken in blocks of 4... but I like Bards, so I would likely just continue as a Bard the rest of my career... unless I really felt the need for Dex-to-damage, then I would go Gunslinger 1/Bard 2/Gunslinger 4/Bard 13...
This is awesome! I had no idea that bard archetype existed. It's really good. Hmm Harley Quinn-esque Shooty McBang Bang. I had a rough draft drawing of a crazy jester pc idea. It was suppose to be a spellcaster but maybe I'll try this again...when I do the good drawing I might have to add some guns. :)
Name Violation |
Keep in mind mysterious stranger still uses wis for max grit, but cha for starting grit.
Grit (Ex)
A mysterious stranger is a force to be reckoned with. Instead of using her Wisdom to determine the number of grit points she gains at the start of each day, she uses Charisma. This ability works in all other ways like the Gunslinger’s grit class feature.
JiCi |
Your best option is to carry 2 Dragoon Pistols, each allowing 3 shots before reloading. You're going to need to take cover, reload each pistol and go back at shooting. Then again, you can Vital Striking once per round, and save ammo and reloading rounds :P
They made it clear that you cannot properly dual-wield pistols outside of some expensive magic. You can carry an intelligent Pepperbox (or two) which can turn the barrels by themselves.
I feel like a Gunslinger is "made" to Vital Strike, oddly enough. If you have a Pepperbox, you can Vital Strike 6 times (6 rounds) before reloading. If you can't think of why you would do that, just imagine yourself as a stoic shooter who stares down the barrel, laser-focused on its target and pulls the trigger, making every single shot count ;)
For having researched a bit more, the Gun Chemist can benefit more from TWF, with 2 Dragoon Pistols... because them "wasting" 6 Alchemical Ordnances in a single round can be... explosive to see :P
Skrayper |
Melkiador wrote:You could take a dip of arcane caster and try to rely on the Spell Cartridges feat, instead of reloading. That takes up 2 feats and your swift action. But standard reloading options also take feats and end up using swift actions.I have always wanted to make a Arcane Strike/Blooded Arcane Strike/Spell Cartridges build, but just haven't found anything I like. But entering Bloodrage and immediately having infinite force bullets just seems cool.
You inspired me to give this a try (made as a backup character in a different campaign, where we're all 17th level)
This is what I came up with:
Mysterious Stranger 1
Trench Fighter 3
Divine Hunter 2
Urban Bloodrager 11 (Vestige Bloodline)
Traits: Magical Knack and _______________
Feats (Twin Pistols Build - Human):
Countenanced Carbuncle
Hand's Autonomy
Two-Weapon Fighting
Point-Blank Shot
Arcane Strike
Spell Cartridges
Improved Critical
Deadly Aim
Blooded Arcane Strike
Point Blank Master
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Precise Shot
Signature Deed
Feats (Rifle Build - Tiefling because I like the idea of a tiefling with a rifle):
Point-Blank Shot
Arcane Strike
Spell Cartridges
Improved Critical
Deadly Aim
Blooded Arcane Strike
Point Blank Master
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Precise Shot
Signature Deed
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization
Rapid Shot
Urban Bloodrager means you can rage to boost Dex, so at level 17 human you can have a 24 dex normal (presuming no manuals), +6 dex belt (my initial build has a +4 Dex/Con belt), +6 dex from raging, and 16 charisma (22 with a +6 charisma headband). 36 dex combines with 22 charisma (Mysterious Stranger Deed) for a bonus of +19 to damage from stats alone.
Rage as a free action, turning all your shots into 2d4 force damage bullets.
Get +2 damage from Arcane Strike, +2 from Weapon Spec, a potential +10 from deadly aim, presume +5 gun(s), and in the twin pistol scenario you're looking at 2d4+38 force damage per shot. (+1 more for Carbuncle)
Of course, at level 17 you could afford two Pistols of the Infinite Sky and call it a day. The unlimited ammo wouldn't be as necessary, but the 2d4 is better anyway, plus force damage.
Free Action: Rage
Swift Action: Deed
Full Round Action (Pistols): 6 attacks with Rapid Shot, 7 attacks with Haste and Rapid Shot.
I've seen builds that do more damage, but I think this could be incredibly fun.
As for the newer character, my biggest worry is that it's just two of us and it'll be a few levels before I can get Point Blank Master (Presuming 1 level of Mysterious Stranger, 4 levels of Trench Fighter, then something else) - meaning being within 20ft of each target is dangerous. I might, sadly, need to move away from gunslinger in that one (or go rifle and keep away from them).
Temperans |
Regarding the Arcane Strike build.
If you want more damage you can go Trench Fighter 5 instead of Trench Fighter 3/Divine Hunter 2. This will give you +1 to hit/damage and access to Advance Weapon Training via a feat, as well as Dueling Gloves. You can replace Greater W. Specialization for the Advance W. Training feat. Of note are: Warrior Spirit for on demand 1/day weapon enchantment; Weapon Mastery for semi obvious reasons; and, Effortless Dual Wielding to bring down the penalties to -2/-2.
Point Blank Master is good but not that needed. Specially since you want to be at ranged anyway. But even if you wanted to be in melee Deft Shootist is a much better feat since it also affects reload.
The carbuncle feats are interesting, but Effortless Dual Wielding does that in 1 feat (if we ignore the other benefits). Thus you can use those two feats for something else. For example: Empty Quiver Style/Flexibility would allow you to use your guns in melee; While Impressive Grit would allow you to use Dead Shot for free; etc.