What about all the good things Necromancy did?

[VoodistMonk]

Playing devil's advocate here... because I am evil, and it's fun... I propose that Necromancy is, in fact, the purest of all magics. And that it is labeled as Evil to guard it from the peasants and the public. I can guarantee you that the very people burning witches and making laws declaring that which is good or evil will use necromancy in heartbeat behind closed doors... even Saul went to a witch in order summon the dead Samuel, and Saul was known to really hate him some witches.

This next concept is not my own, it originated from something I seen on the FaceSpaces, but I thought it deserved mention here... you see, it could be argued that life, and being alive, is the natural state of things. And thus, everything that was once alive, would possess some innate desire to return to its natural state of being alive... do you see where this is going? Lol.

Mechanically, in PF1 terms, this conversation is meaningless... I am simply shooting the $#!+, debating, if you will, the morality of the necromantic arts. I have no problem with my craft being regarded as "Evil", but I think the labeling of all necromancy as Evil is driven by ulterior motives... more political, or perhaps elitist/classist, in nature than any religious nonsense about necromancy being depicted as "Evil" by the gods.

I have no interest in what many may regard as "white necromancy"... what people do with their magic honestly concerns me very little. It is the blanket labeling of the entire school of magic that just seems too convenient to trust. In reality, it was probably just easier from a game-creation standpoint, but that just seems like a boring conversation to have. Lol.

Do you think all necromancy is "Evil"? Do you think there is some dark-web, Illuminati conspiracy theory reason that necromancy in Golarion has been locked behind laws of men and church?

[VoodistMonk]

I will argue that even the epitome of necromancy, Lichdom, is no more inherently "Evil" as being a random soldier in a random king's miltary... the things mortals will do for their kings, their gods, and the countries are horrendous. Most liches sacrifice fewer lives in pursuit of their goals than your average soldier sacrifices for a pathetic promotion and a shiny piece of ribbon.

In fact, most Liches are so concerned with studying that they never do anything until some random party of "heroes" comes crashing through the door like the Kool-Aid man. Like who invited you @$$holes, I haven't even been outside in 600 years!

Sure, there may be some of us [liches, that is] that have nefarious plans in the works... that may, OR MAY NOT, be completely counter to the interests of the living. But, to judge all liches by the actions of a few, is just as wrong as labeling an entire school of magic as Evil... rather than making magicians be held accountable for what they do with Necromancy.

[Algarik]

I guess i'll take the bite!

Is the whole school of necromancy evil? Of course not, it's a tool. While the school definitely focus on getting people dead or sick, it's no more evil than a sword is.

Necromancy just has this unfortunate association with undead reamination, which is undoutably evil. Sure, sure, we can always argue that using undead to do labour or to fight wars helps the living, but it also has the horrible tendency of backfiring. Mindless undead hates life and when left unchecked they might go on a rampage. Raising someone into a undead also corrupts which most certainly leads to suffering, which can't be good.

VoodistMonk wrote:

I will argue that even the epitome of necromancy, Lichdom, is no more inherently "Evil" as being a random soldier in a random king's miltary... the things mortals will do for their kings, their gods, and the countries are horrendous. Most liches sacrifice fewer lives in pursuit of their goals than your average soldier sacrifices for a pathetic promotion and a shiny piece of ribbon.

This argument is problematic for two reasons.

1. Lichdom being the epitome of necromancy is totally subjective. I personally find that Astral projection opens up way more interesting possibilities.
2. This argument is a fallacious debate tactic called ''Whataboutism''. The unethical behavior of military personnel has no bearing on the moral ''goodness'' of Lichdom. Both can be terrible.

VoodistMonk wrote:

But, to judge all liches by the actions of a few, is just as wrong as labeling an entire school of magic as Evil... rather than making magicians be held accountable for what they do with Necromancy.

Well, the path to Lichdom is rid with so many unspeakable act that we can, in fact, judge all liches to be horrendous. Now sure, some Lich may be less evil than other, it still doesn't make them anywhere near ethical.

[VoodistMonk]

True... "whataboutism" is, indeed, a BS argument. And, my particular example could be taken in bad taste. I was meaning Golarion soldiers... not soldiers, in a real life general sense. Not saying real life soldiers haven't done some terrible things, we just weren't the target of that particular comment. As a veteran, I could see how my example could be offensive if taken to be applied to all soldiers.

Can't judge all by the actions of a few, and we come full circle. Lol. But you say we CAN judge all Liches by the actions of all Liches because to even become a Lich, in the first place, involves MULTITUDES of deplorable acts? Hmm... I suppose that may be fair.

I think being alive leads to suffering. Lol. So there may be some debate on which side suffers the most, and whether or not being turned is a liberation or a curse.

[OmniMage]

Well, some spells like cure light wounds and raise dead used to be necromancy spells in 2nd edition. So the spell list was more 'balanced'. In 3rd edition, most became conjuration spells. Inflict wounds are still necromancy spells. So with the exodus of many good and helpful spells (for the living at least), the remaining set is a bit more evil in their absence.

Cure spells
Raise dead and resurrection
Reincarnation (became a transmutation spell)
Restoration
Regenerate
Numerous remove condition spells

VoodistMonk wrote:

In fact, most Liches are so concerned with studying that they never do anything until some random party of "heroes" comes crashing through the door like the Kool-Aid man. Like who invited you @$$holes, I haven't even been outside in 600 years!

To be fair, liches cause the nearby property values drop. While some racism might be to blame, not doing even the basic upkeep on their lawns don't help. Some properties don't look like they've cared for in 1000 years.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

VM, I suggest you get hold of and read The Complete Book of Necromancers, which discusses this and is a very good book in general.

[Chell Raighn]

OmniMage wrote:

Well, some spells like cure light wounds and raise dead used to be necromancy spells in 2nd edition. So the spell list was more 'balanced'. In 3rd edition, most became conjuration spells. Inflict wounds are still necromancy spells. So with the exodus of many good and helpful spells (for the living at least), the remaining set is a bit more evil in their absence.

Cure spells
Raise dead and resurrection
Reincarnation (became a transmutation spell)
Restoration
Regenerate
Numerous remove condition spells

Quite honestly they should have left all the spells that became the Conjuration [Healing] sub-school of magic as Necromancy spells… it made far more sense that way… but now we are apparently summoning energy from another plane of existence or borrowing power from a divine being (who isn’t afraid to use the power of necromancy to mend) in order to use healing spells… I’d like to cut out the middle man and just go back to casting Cure as a necromancy spell. Necromancy as a whole is a school of magic that revolves around life. Necromancy being a school of magic centered around the concept of death is a huge misconception. It just so happens that we learn more about life from death.

Think of a book of necromancy as a medical journal… you are going to read through several thousand pages about death just to draw upon a few conclusions about life that fill only a mere handful of pages scattered about the book. To anyone who picks it up and flips to any random page, it will most likely read as if it were focused on death. The ultimate goal of necromancy is eternal life, free of disease, pain, exhaustion, aging, etc… Lichdom just happens to be one such avenue of reaching that goal.

The provenance of Lichdom amongst Necromancers has more to due with the nature of man if given eternal life… If a Lawful Good individual were granted immortality then over time their morality would shift as their outlook on the world changes. They witness atrocities but are powerless to stop them, they perform great deeds but are not thanked, others claim credit for their actions, selfish rulers call upon them only to use them… given enough time to see the darker side of humanity over and over again, it weighs on ones soul and drives them to dark places. They start to perform actions they never imagined they would, at first unintentionally, but over time those unintentional actions happen so often that even they can’t tell if it was intentional or not, until eventually they just don’t care anymore. At some point in that Lawful Good individuals immortal life they will inevitably find themselves to have become Chaotic Evil… and should they live long enough still, they will shift back towards Lawful Good yet again as they grow bored of doing anything they please and then repeat the cycle in an endless loop until they are killed by something.

[Algarik]

VoodistMonk wrote:

I was meaning Golarion soldiers... not soldiers, in a real life general sense. Not saying real life soldiers haven't done some terrible things, we just weren't the target of that particular comment. As a veteran, I could see how my example could be offensive if taken to be applied to all soldiers.

Oh i was also refering to golarion's soldier, maybe i just didn't picked the proper words sorry!

VoodistMonk wrote:

I think being alive leads to suffering. Lol. So there may be some debate on which side suffers the most, and whether or not being turned is a liberation or a curse.

I think the same too, but if that's true, Undead is a form of punishment; eternal unrest. It dulls out physical pain, but does next nothing to alieviate the stress of simply existing.

As for curing spell being necromancy spell in earlier edition, i will admit that some part of me licked that, however, it made little sense.

The ''Necro'' prefix means that something is related to death or corpses it has nothing to do with life. Traditionally, Necromancy as also been seen as a tool to control the dead or to communicate with the them for purpose of divination.

I'm gonna go against the grain and say that necromancy shouldn't be a school, but only a label for spells that deal with the dead. All necromancy spells could be split into the remaining school.
1- Spells that raise the dead could be conjuration spells.
2- Spells that control the dead could be enchantment spells.
3- Spells that makes other sick, enfeebled or otherwise incapacitated could be transmutation.
4- Spells that blast with dark energy should be evocation.

Necromancy is a themathically appropriate school, but i feel like it doesn't hold to scrutiny.

As for what school cure wound spell and inflict spells should be, i think they should be within evocation. Evocation is already the school of summoning energy and Conjuration has a bad habit of trampling on its schtick.

[strayshift]

As an enchantment practitioner I SUGGEST that you guys should carry on debating what an evil twisted bunch those necromancy practitioners are and just leave us far less dubious and far more ethical students of the arcane arts to practice being so low key that we're happy here behind the scenes, not harming (or controlling) anyone, not in the slightest, no sirs...

[Chell Raighn]

strayshift wrote:

As an enchantment practitioner I SUGGEST that you guys should carry on debating what an evil twisted bunch those necromancy practitioners are and just leave us far less dubious and far more ethical students of the arcane arts to practice being so low key that we're happy here behind the scenes, not harming (or controlling) anyone, not in the slightest, no sirs...

Hey now… enchanters have just as much capacity for evil as necromancers… honestly what is the difference between a horde of zombies and a mind controlled army? Nothing besides the difference between living and undead… from a certain perspective the enchanter who is commanding a mind controlled army is the more evil of the two. The Necromancer at least has the decency to make sure their minions are already dead, the enchanter on the otherhand is torturing countless individuals by forcing them to kill against their will.

If you truly wish to be an innocent wizard who can never do wrong, you must join us in the ranks of the illusionists….

Sorry I nat 20’d my Will save against your Suggestion spell.

[Algarik]

strayshift wrote:

As an enchantment practitioner I SUGGEST that you guys should carry on debating what an evil twisted bunch those necromancy practitioners are and just leave us far less dubious and far more ethical students of the arcane arts to practice being so low key that we're happy here behind the scenes, not harming (or controlling) anyone, not in the slightest, no sirs...

A morally upstanding wizard should refrain from having anything to do with enchantment and necromancy alike! There's a reasons wizards has to abandon two school of magic and that's so they can avoid ever touching enchantment and necromancy!

Chell Raighn wrote:

If you truly wish to be an innocent wizard who can never do wrong, you must join us in the ranks of the illusionists.

Pfff Illusionist, why cast spells when you can fake it am i right?

Evocation is the purest form of magic!

[VoodistMonk]

Enchanters and Necromancers can skip together through a field of flowers... we need not compete, my friend.

Man, howa'bout those Champion of Darkness, Seducer Drow Nobles, though? Lol.

I will actually agree with the proposal that Necromancy should not be its own school of magic. I think it was all lumped together, and what was combined makes no sense, because of the political BS behind labeling this newly formed school as "Evil". A bunch of the spells in this school have no business being grouped together other than they are capable of harming the living.

Who gives a $#!+, though, lots of spells can harm the living... the living are squishy and easy to harm.

But the ability to harm/heal with the same spell, makes Cure and Inflict spells of the same school... whatever school it may be. My Inflict spells heal my friends the same way your Cure spells harm my friends... same difference, same school. Neither are "Evil"...

[Kasoh]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Do you think all necromancy is "Evil"? Do you think there is some dark-web, Illuminati conspiracy theory reason that necromancy in Golarion has been locked behind laws of men and church?

I suppose a part of it is that some Necromancy spells are literally evil. They have the [Evil] tag and thus are evil in a setting which has objective morality.

The Lich template can only be applied to evil creatures as well, so Yes. It is evil and I don't particularly care if societies and government and churches banter about the peculiarities of moral relativism.

I know you stated no interest in the mechanical aspect, but I feel like its important because the setting should have had its society shaped by being able to determine that things are Good and Evil. However, as with most things, people don't like alignment because they don't want to accept labels like evil.

I throw people who claim the art of Necromancy as a neutral act in with the same people who think that you can torture people for good reasons. They want their cake and to eat it too. "I want to do evil and engage in edgelord chicanery but I don't want to actually be evil." No. Take responsibility for your choices and wear your alignment.

Of course, I realize that this is at a table level. In setting, there's enough Necromancy spells that aren't evil or have practical uses that while the school is probably looked askance at, it shouldn't be vilified anymore than enchantment or evocation.

An evocation specialist is like looking at someone who bought a copy of 'The anarchists cookbook' off the internet. There's only so much you can do with evocation and most of it involves killing people in a horrible fashion with elements. Why aren't these arsonists in training locked up? Because they feed the Adventurer Industrial Complex man! That's the real conspiracy.

[VoodistMonk]

Kasoh wrote:

An evocation specialist is like looking at someone who bought a copy of 'The anarchists cookbook' off the internet. There's only so much you can do with evocation and most of it involves killing people in a horrible fashion with elements. Why aren't these arsonists in training locked up? Because they feed the Adventurer Industrial Complex man! That's the real conspiracy.

I enjoyed this, probably too much.

[Algarik]

Kasoh wrote:

I know you stated no interest in the mechanical aspect, but I feel like its important because the setting should have had its society shaped by being able to determine that things are Good and Evil. However, as with most things, people don't like alignment because they don't want to accept labels like evil.

I personally like alignement as personality short cut, or flawed political affiliation. If someone is labelled as ''Chaotic Neutral'' i can safely assume that they value freedom.

Objective alignements are wonky because in the way they are used, they clash with our understanding of moral. According to Gygax, it is Lawful Good to execute unarmed Chaotic Evil prisonners that surrendered. This should raise eyebrows. Alignement in the way they are represented within the game feels more like factions than moral guidelines.

I'm also reminded of the ''Lawful Good'' alignement of the Kingmaker videogame in which most dialogue option for Lawful Good when dealing with ''evil'' creatures is to charge screaming bloody justice.

Kasoh wrote:

I throw people who claim the art of Necromancy as a neutral act in with the same people who think that you can torture people for good reasons. They want their cake and to eat it too. "I want to do evil and engage in edgelord chicanery but I don't want to actually be evil." No. Take responsibility for your choices and wear your alignment.

There is some legitimately ''harmless'' spells within the Necromancy school. Here's a list of spells, from the wizard list, that can actually be used for good:

1st - Bed of Iron, Restore Corpse, Positive Pulse.
2nd - Command Undead, Life Pact.
3rd - Gentle Respose, halt Undead,
4th - Greater, Positive Pulse.
5th - Absorb Toxicity, Lesser Astral Projection,
6th - Not much unfortunately.
7th - Control Undead, Temporary Ressurection
8th - Clone
9th - Astral Projection

Sure the list isn't that great, but i'd also argue that all those fatigue, paralyze and sickness spell present in the wizard list are morally superior ways of dealing with foes than stabbing them in the gut with a spear. That is if we assume that killing is an evil act.

Also without getting too much into the morality of torture, as it's a touchy subject, there's been multitude of research pointing out that it just doesn't work. So the bad it causes could even be justified.

Kasoh wrote:

An evocation specialist is like looking at someone who bought a copy of 'The anarchists cookbook' off the internet. There's only so much you can do with evocation and most of it involves killing people in a horrible fashion with elements. Why aren't these arsonists in training locked up? Because they feed the Adventurer Industrial Complex man! That's the real conspiracy.

Loooooook, while this might not completely false, Evocation is about creating energies, there's bunch of useful force spell*, there's light spell, darkness spell, wind spell which are useful for navigation, and of course explosions.

* Which reminds me that mage armor being conjuration is a sham.

Guys lets focus on the real baddies: the conjurers they stole half of evoker's specialties and they even consort with demons and devils half of the time and if undead are evil with and ''e'' demons and devils are ''E' Evil!

[Kasoh]

Algarik wrote:

Guys lets focus on the real baddies: the conjurers they stole half of evoker's specialties and they even consort with demons and devils half of the time and if undead are evil with and ''e'' demons and devils are ''E' Evil!

So, the Conjuration school, not satisfied with being the best school of magic, has engaged in a slow conspiracy to steal Evocation's gimmick, Necromancy's evil, and Illusion's predilection for causing people to walk into pits.

Now, that's the easy way out. Obviously the real villain is Abjuration specialists, who are setting up Conjuration as the fall guy in revenge for stealing Mage Armor.

[Algarik]

Kasoh wrote:

Obviously the real villain is Abjuration specialists, who are setting up Conjuration as the fall guy in revenge for stealing Mage Armor.

Oh yeah, Abjuration Specialist just hate fun, screw those guys and their dispel magic!

[Coidzor]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Do you think all necromancy is "Evil"? Do you think there is some dark-web, Illuminati conspiracy theory reason that necromancy in Golarion has been locked behind laws of men and church?

Well, there is that one rumor that states that low level paladins needed plenty of cannon fodder that they could use Smite Evil on, leading to mindless undead like Skeletons and Zombies getting slapped with the Evil tag.

I'm sure someone somewhere has taken that seed and ran with it.

[avr]

Clearly there are problems with necromancy and enchantment. Does evocation have any real purpose once blowing people's heads off is removed? Conjuration opens gateways to the Abyss, divination invades personal privacy, illusion is based on deception at its core, transmutation is known for uses such as making poisons and undermining the economy. Only abjuration is without sin.

So, a simple proposal. Let us ban all magic save abjuration, which will still be required to suppress other types after all.

[VoodistMonk]

Meh, regardless if those types of magic are banned... SOME of us are willing to practice whatever we want, just saying...

[strayshift]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Meh, regardless if those types of magic are banned... SOME of us are willing to practice whatever we want, just saying...

Some things are much more fun if you're not supposed to do them after all...

[Kasoh]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Meh, regardless if those types of magic are banned... SOME of us are willing to practice whatever we want, just saying...

Well, I suppose that explains why Necromancers live in swamps or near graveyards. Their legitimate research has been pushed to the boundaries of society by moralizing busybodies.

What Necromancy needs is a PR agent.

[Mark Hoover 330]

All arcane spellcasters are evil, if only by a fraction, in PF1. Think about it: why do so many folks post on these boards that Wizard is one of if not THE strongest class in the game? B/c they can do... anything.

Necromancy under Divine spellcasting is entirely dependent on the force/patron/deity you're getting it from. The alignment of that source dictates whether or not your necromantic powers are evil or good, most of the time. Exceptions will exist but for the most part the morality of these powers flows from the source.

Arcane spellcasters though... you take, and take, and by, say, 11th level, you have ALL of the toys. You are better skill monkeys, better combatants, better defensively and so on than EVERYONE else in the game, if you've put in the work.

That smacks of selfishness, of pride; you had to KNOW what you were striving toward when you started down the Arcane caster path. The fact that you use Necromancy to get there just adds extra layers to that seed of evil your class choice birthed.

So, who cares if Necromancy is evil or good? It is a tool, nothing more. But when placed in the hands of an Arcanist, Sorcerer, Wizard, Summoner, Magus, et al, Necromancy like all other powers is tainted by the evil that wields it.

[Algarik]

Kasoh wrote:

What Necromancy needs is a PR agent.

Does the job comes with inssurance against the pyre and an amulet of undetectable alignement?

[Dale McCoy Jr]

IMO enchantment is far more evil than necromancy. Necromancy has spells like false life and ray of enfeeblement, spells with honestly good uses. Enchantment is all about mind control and enslaving another's will to your own. How is that not more evil than having a dead body do some work for you?

[Mark Hoover 330]

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

IMO enchantment is far more evil than necromancy. Necromancy has spells like false life and ray of enfeeblement, spells with honestly good uses. Enchantment is all about mind control and enslaving another's will to your own. How is that not more evil than having a dead body do some work for you?

Keep Watch, Bestow Insight, Memorize Page, Delay Pain... there are plenty of "good" or beneficial expressions of power in Enchantment if we're willing to give the same excuse to Necromancy.

However I'd like to point out, again, a full arcane spellcaster with access to all 9 schools is a potential blaster, healer, controller, battlefield alterationist, skills monkey, buffer, debuffer, commander/creator of the undead, gateway to all manner of planes, and so on.

Arcane casters DO everything, often better than other classes, with little optimization. Those things they don't have to be optimized around that also aren't level dependent they can get a use of on a cheap scroll. I mean, what is the nature of some character that says "I'm better than all of you, at everything, whenever I CHOOSE to be"?

I wonder how cheesed off my players would be if I banned full Arcane spellcasters from my tables... :O

[strayshift]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

I wonder how cheesed off my players would be if I banned full Arcane spellcasters from my tables... :O

I have a limited form of this, I ban metamagic rods (buying feats), I ban items such pages of spell knowledge, ring of wizardry, etc (to limit the spells available at the table).

Guess what? Arcane casters are still pre-eminent as a choice.

[Kasoh]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Arcane casters DO everything, often better than other classes, with little optimization. Those things they don't have to be optimized around that also aren't level dependent they can get a use of on a cheap scroll. I mean, what is the nature of some character that says "I'm better than all of you, at everything, whenever I CHOOSE to be"?

I wonder how cheesed off my players would be if I banned full Arcane spellcasters from my tables... :O

Table variation and all, but I don't usually see this sort of thing. I've seen a wizard pick up slack for a party weakness with spells, and I've seen the party turn to the wizard when looking for an easy solution, but I rarely see a wizard interested in becoming all of the party. I just don't think there's enough spell slots to do it all for any meaningful length of time.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Scrolls. Scrolls and time. Table variation IS a thing and I'm sure mine are outliers, but I have players that LOVE taking advantage of Scribe Scroll, extra GP and Downtime whenever they can get it.

You're right that I don't see lots of full casters stepping up to take jobs away from their party members, but they COULD. This ties right back to the dozens of "martials can't have nice things but wizards can" threads that have appeared in these forums.

Any stealthy class by level 3 likely has at least a Stealth +10 if they move half-speed in a round. One caster with one scroll could get 3 minutes of Stealth +20 at their NORMAL speed, so long as they're not directly attacking.

Now, that's not an optimized super caster; that's anyone with Invisibility in their spell list and 150 extra GP laying around. Better yet, if you're like my players, you've spent that 150 GP on 3 Magic Capital during Downtime and then spent those 3 Magic Capital on a scroll of Invisibility you crafted... along with 5 other level 2/CL3 scrolls.

Scrolls that give you "read in case of emergency" powers to levitate someone, or turn invisible, or deliver +6 HP to someone, or whatever.

[Zepheri]

If someone told me which is the most evil school I would tell them, transmutation, spells like: disintegrate, curse, transform flesh to stone, baleful polymorph; they are examples that can show that this school is really evil even if it does not specify it.

For me divination is the most neutral school of all schools. It is only dedicated to knowing the past, present and future of people, things and places.

[Mudfoot]

And then there's the red-headed stepchild school: Universal. It can do evil (Limited Wish/Wish) if you really try...

[Scavion]

If we're talking about Golarion there's only really 1 reason to know why Necromancy is outright outlawed in many nations and appropriately feared.

The Whispering Tyrant exists. When people think of necromancy, they don't think of creepy Tim who has skeletons planting gardens in some reclusive village. They think of the monster who challenged the gods, killed hundreds of thousands of people and threw the broken corpse of the herald of one of the most powerful gods at the time at the feet of their followers.

Is that fair? Probably not. Sensible? Absolutely. Bonus points for undead going berserk and killing anyone close once the necromancer binding them dies.

[strayshift]

Zepheri wrote:

If someone told me which is the most evil school I would tell them, transmutation, spells like: disintegrate, curse, transform flesh to stone, baleful polymorph; they are examples that can show that this school is really evil even if it does not specify it.

For me divination is the most neutral school of all schools. It is only dedicated to knowing the past, present and future of people, things and places.

It's WHAT THEY DO with that knowledge... Did they ask before they pried into all your secrets? Enchantment is king. Let's just all live together in harmony. My harmony mind but you will be happy...

[VoodistMonk]

Scavion wrote:

If we're talking about Golarion there's only really 1 reason to know why Necromancy is outright outlawed in many nations and appropriately feared.

The Whispering Tyrant exists. When people think of necromancy, they don't think of creepy Tim who has skeletons planting gardens in some reclusive village. They think of the monster who challenged the gods, killed hundreds of thousands of people and threw the broken corpse of the herald of one of the most powerful gods at the time at the feet of their followers.

Is that fair? Probably not. Sensible? Absolutely. Bonus points for undead going berserk and killing anyone close once the necromancer binding them dies.

I have been waiting for someone to bring that shining example into the spotlight. Lol.

No one ever:
Why is Necromancy considered "Evil"?

Literally every mortal in Golarion:
Gee, I wonder...

[Coidzor]

Mudfoot wrote:

And then there's the red-headed stepchild school: Universal. It can do evil (Limited Wish/Wish) if you really try...

It has spells so evil that if you don't word your wishes carefully, you'll get Monkey's Paw'd.

[Zepheri]

Scavion wrote:

If we're talking about Golarion there's only really 1 reason to know why Necromancy is outright outlawed in many nations and appropriately feared.

The Whispering Tyrant exists. When people think of necromancy, they don't think of creepy Tim who has skeletons planting gardens in some reclusive village. They think of the monster who challenged the gods, killed hundreds of thousands of people and threw the broken corpse of the herald of one of the most powerful gods at the time at the feet of their followers.

Is that fair? Probably not. Sensible? Absolutely. Bonus points for undead going berserk and killing anyone close once the necromancer binding them dies.

but that is since that adoren it transforms into god, the necromancy has been disowned much longer ago, pharasma hates the undead so in part it could be said that he hates that part of necromancy, even Zura even used necromancy to become the first vampire

[Zepheri]

strayshift wrote:

Zepheri wrote:

If someone told me which is the most evil school I would tell them, transmutation, spells like: disintegrate, curse, transform flesh to stone, baleful polymorph; they are examples that can show that this school is really evil even if it does not specify it.

For me divination is the most neutral school of all schools. It is only dedicated to knowing the past, present and future of people, things and places.

It's WHAT THEY DO with that knowledge... Did they ask before they pried into all your secrets? Enchantment is king. Let's just all live together in harmony. My harmony mind but you will be happy...

Knowledge is power, that is true, however, it depends on who uses it. In divination is the secret of immortality, how to be a god or how everything was created, but that depends on how you handle the information, and who is willing to believe what you say.Divination is a neutral school that gives the information to any creature that uses it and everyone can have the same information

[strayshift]

Zepheri wrote:

strayshift wrote:

Zepheri wrote:

If someone told me which is the most evil school I would tell them, transmutation, spells like: disintegrate, curse, transform flesh to stone, baleful polymorph; they are examples that can show that this school is really evil even if it does not specify it.

For me divination is the most neutral school of all schools. It is only dedicated to knowing the past, present and future of people, things and places.

It's WHAT THEY DO with that knowledge... Did they ask before they pried into all your secrets? Enchantment is king. Let's just all live together in harmony. My harmony mind but you will be happy...

Knowledge is power, that is true, however, it depends on who uses it. In divination is the secret of immortality, how to be a god or how everything was created, but that depends on how you handle the information, and who is willing to believe what you say.Divination is a neutral school that gives the information to any creature that uses it and everyone can have the same information

Knowledge is power, and power is NEVER neutral.

[PossibleCabbage]

Creating zombies and throwing a fireball at an orphanage are both evil. The difference is that you can throw fireballs at things that are not orphanages.

[VoodistMonk]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

The difference is that you can throw fireballs at things that are not orphanages.

But why would you?

[Kasoh]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Creating zombies and throwing a fireball at an orphanage are both evil. The difference is that you can throw fireballs at things that are not orphanages.

How else are you going to get materials for your zombies if you don't fireball an orphanage first?

[Zepheri]

Kasoh wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Creating zombies and throwing a fireball at an orphanage are both evil. The difference is that you can throw fireballs at things that are not orphanages.

How else are you going to get materials for your zombies if you don't fireball an orphanage first?

And what are you going to create, some mini me?

[Zepheri]

strayshift wrote:

Zepheri wrote:

strayshift wrote:

Zepheri wrote:

If someone told me which is the most evil school I would tell them, transmutation, spells like: disintegrate, curse, transform flesh to stone, baleful polymorph; they are examples that can show that this school is really evil even if it does not specify it.

For me divination is the most neutral school of all schools. It is only dedicated to knowing the past, present and future of people, things and places.

It's WHAT THEY DO with that knowledge... Did they ask before they pried into all your secrets? Enchantment is king. Let's just all live together in harmony. My harmony mind but you will be happy...

Knowledge is power, that is true, however, it depends on who uses it. In divination is the secret of immortality, how to be a god or how everything was created, but that depends on how you handle the information, and who is willing to believe what you say.Divination is a neutral school that gives the information to any creature that uses it and everyone can have the same information

Knowledge is power, and power is NEVER neutral.

Like I say it neutral school, If you use it to gain power in any area Yea it's up to you, not the school's, if you want to know the cure for coronavirus, you use fortune-telling to find out what the ultimate cure is it's already like using that divination and you would be doing good, divination school is neutral for that since the person uses the school for information but that is how you handle the information is another thing