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I'm glad we're back on this topic again.
I'm glad we're back on this topic again.
If it wasn't for the "Real silly" comment, I wouldn't have said anything. You don't have to agree with people, but don't call their opinions "real silly".
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As Graystone put it. There was a very big debate about how much "Summoning" the class was doing. 1 side said that it was, because of 1 word in the playtest description of the class. While the other said that nothing in the class actually supported it, and that was a problem. Some asked for more summon support (like me), others asked for a name change (not me).
Now that the class has been released and all mentions of summoning are restricted to a handful of feats. Most of which don't actually make you better at summoning. I felt like it had to be pointed out. Regardless of how the class works, if the Summoner isn't good at summoning and the main feature is specifically called out to not be summoning, then it fails to deliver.
Because like my example, Greystone's example, or "is this your wallet?" Meme:
It's just a jarring thing to see when Druid and Wizard are better. When Wizard has literally some of the worst feats in the game.Do you summon a creature as your main feature? No.
Do you get an ability to summon more? Not really.
Do you have support for summoning rituals? No.
Do you have a lot of support for summons? No.
Are you a Summoner? Yes.
TBH I feel like Oracle has it a thousand times worse, from the very beginning. And yet there is no comparable ruckus.
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Personally, I'm curious whether a Summoner can act as the party's sole emergency in-combat healer with only one or two slots a day dedicated to healing. I suspect the answer is yes in more roleplay-oriented games, but I'll be playing Strength of Thousands, and I get the sense Pathfinder APs favor combat and often test even normal casters' endurance.
Staffs, Wands and Scrolls are a thing. And in fact the greatest source of spendings for most casters.
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TBH I feel like Oracle has it a thousand times worse, from the very beginning. And yet there is no comparable ruckus.The oracle does exactly what it's supposed to do. Is it not super flexible? Yeah. But it hits all the abilities that an Oracle should have.
You tell me what part of the Summoner makes him a good "Summoner". Because as the book itself says, it's not the eidolon.
An Oracle should predict the future and answer questions with true answers.
How is the class called Oracle doing any of this ?
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And Classes do not change name in Pathfinder. Just check the Oracle and how little divining the future it actually does.
Champions got their name changed (over quite vocal objections) because the mechanics associated with the class shifted enough to justify a new name. The Spiritualist is also now defunct, rolled into the Summoner.
So it’s not like this wish was manifested out of the ether, as it had already happened, including to this very class.
In any case, deed is done.
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True answers? What Oracles are you talking about?
An Oracle (the person) is first and foremost a "wise person" with "insightful advice". Pathfinder Oracles than add in the "they gain power from their connection to divine mysteries", "their connection to a deeper truth has wracked their bodies with a curse", and "they tend to worship pantheon or philosophies as the source of their mysterious power".
There you have the wise person, with some debilitating condition (as it's often the case with stories of Oracles in myth), who draw the power from the divine, but don't draw power from any one god.
Even with all that, a large chunk of their abilities have to do with getting knowledge, predicting events, or revealing more of their mystery (getting closer to what is behind the veil).
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You turn. How is the class called Summoner actually being good at "summoning"?
They call a creature more powerful than any minion out of thin air thanks to magic ?
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And Classes do not change name in Pathfinder. Just check the Oracle and how little divining the future it actually does.Champions got their name changed (over quite vocal objections) because the mechanics associated with the class shifted enough to justify a new name. The Spiritualist is also now defunct, rolled into the Summoner.
So it’s not like this wish was manifested out of the ether, as it had already happened, including to this very class.
In any case, deed is done.
I do not agree.
The LG divine warrior is still called a Paladin. The divine warrior class has expanded to include other alignments, which warranted its new name.
Spiritualist has been indeed rolled into the Summoner and they obviously could not use 2 names for the Class. And I think the ruckus over the class' name being Spiritualist would have been even worse.
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So... I have a suggestion/thought here.
The issue is not (directly) that the thing called "Summoner" is not a specialist in Summoning spells. The issue is that we now do not have a specialist in summoning spells, and the name suggests that we never will.
My read is that there are people out there who really want to play a specialist in that particular variety of spell (Mad Monkeys FTW!), and felt disappointed both that they didn't get that this time and the implied that they never will.
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An Oracle should predict the future and answer questions with true answers.How is the class called Oracle doing any of this ?
Wizard literally means 'wise man' and the class has literally zero synergy with the Wisdom stat.
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"A specialist in summoning spells" is unlikely to be a very satisfying character in the PF2 model which very carefully guards against minionmancy where your turns take 6x longer than anybody else's since you're controlling a lot of bodies.
This is a good thing. The "Lantern Archon Laser Battery" was fun in theorycraft in PF1, but it's not a thing I ever want to see the likes of in actual play.
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Wizard literally means 'wise man' and the class has literally zero synergy with the Wisdom stat.
An Oracle should predict the future and answer questions with true answers.How is the class called Oracle doing any of this ?
The pop image of the Wizard is someone usually unarmored casting spells. The Wizard class provides this.
The pop image of the Summoner is someone calling a powerful magical being into this world. The Summoner class provides this.
The pop image of the Oracle is the soothsayer. The Oracle class does not provide this. What is the Mystery of the Oracle in Matrix ? Cookies ?
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"A specialist in summoning spells" is unlikely to be a very satisfying character in the PF2 model which very carefully guards against minionmancy where your turns take 6x longer than anybody else's since you're controlling a lot of bodies.
This is a good thing. The "Lantern Archon Laser Battery" was fun in theorycraft in PF1, but it's not a thing I ever want to see the likes of in actual play.
Agreed, it feels like that would be better as a VERY restricted archetype, if at all.
Though the beast master Pokémon ranger gives it a go. I hope they spin off another one for undead, as that’s definitely an itch to be scratched.
And Classes do not change name in Pathfinder. Just check the Oracle and how little divining the future it actually does.Champions got their name changed (over quite vocal objections) because the mechanics associated with the class shifted enough to justify a new name. The Spiritualist is also now defunct, rolled into the Summoner.
So it’s not like this wish was manifested out of the ether, as it had already happened, including to this very class.
In any case, deed is done.
I do not agree.
The LG divine warrior is still called a Paladin. The divine warrior class has expanded to include other alignments, which warranted its new name.
Just to clarify, but the opening up of alignments is the exact mechanical shift I was referring to.
Spiritualist has been indeed rolled into the Summoner and they obviously could not use 2 names for the Class. And I think the ruckus over the class' name being Spiritualist would have been even worse.
I tend to agree, though probably not for the same reasons you imagine. I favored “binder” or “caller” as those are both in lore terms for the class and the “calling” mechanic was made redundant during the edition change.
Also I kind of like the idea of subclass names like “beastcaller”, “phantomcaller”, or “dragoncaller”. I suppose there’s still hope for an archetype along these lines. I like agnostic archetypes, and have been a bit disappointed that we haven’t seen a lot of caster ones. Though the new archetypes in SoM fit some of that bill, like the Shadow caster one.
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The "pet classes" in PF1 (Summoner, Spiritualist, Hunter) really didn't need to be a bunch of different classes and the Summoner was the best umbrella to put them all under.
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"A specialist in summoning spells" is unlikely to be a very satisfying character in the PF2 model which very carefully guards against minionmancy where your turns take 6x longer than anybody else's since you're controlling a lot of bodies.
A class focused on summoning could hopefully open up the summoning a bit more than the base usage. Myself, I was never in it for the horde of creatures but for it's 'swiss army knife' ability to pull out a creature with an ability, spell, skill or even language I needed. Straight combat might is most likely a lost cause in PF2 but that doesn't mean you can't make the spells better in other areas.
Then let us flag and be on our merry ways.
If it was another person, I might have. Captain Morgan usually isn't insulting so I thought it better to make the comment: if you just flag, the person might never know why their post vanishes in a purge.
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Despite that, the Eidolon entry also says:
...each draws upon a particular tradition of magic and manifests from related essence.
Meaning that you are not bringing the creature but "creating" it.
It also say:
"Though a true angel, your angel eidolon’s link to you
as a mortal prevents them from casting the angelic
messenger ritual, even if they somehow learn it."
"Your eidolon is a lost soul, bound to the mortal world
by undying anger or a bitter grudge."
"Your eidolon is a demon, born of mortal sin
congealed amid the chaos and evil of the Abyss,
using its link to you to spread chaos at your side."
"Because dragons have a strong connection to magic,
their minds can often leave an echo floating in the
Astral Plane. Such an entity is extremely powerful but
unable to interact with the outside world on its own.
Dragon eidolons manifest in the powerful, scaled forms
they had in life;"
Each Eidolon types gives a description of what it is or how it came to be.
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TBH I feel like Oracle has it a thousand times worse, from the very beginning. And yet there is no comparable ruckus.As Graystone put it. There was a very big debate about how much "Summoning" the class was doing. 1 side said that it was, because of 1 word in the playtest description of the class. While the other said that nothing in the class actually supported it, and that was a problem. Some asked for more summon support (like me), others asked for a name change (not me).
Now that the class has been released and all mentions of summoning are restricted to a handful of feats. Most of which don't actually make you better at summoning. I felt like it had to be pointed out. Regardless of how the class works, if the Summoner isn't good at summoning and the main feature is specifically called out to not be summoning, then it fails to deliver.
Because like my example, Greystone's example, or "is this your wallet?" Meme:
It's just a jarring thing to see when Druid and Wizard are better. When Wizard has literally some of the worst feats in the game.Do you summon a creature as your main feature? No.
Do you get an ability to summon more? Not really.
Do you have support for summoning rituals? No.
Do you have a lot of support for summons? No.
Are you a Summoner? Yes.Meanwhile I'm out here with my favorite classes being the Ranger, Oracle and from what I've read but not yet experienced in real life playing the game, The Summoner.
I do have experience with Ranger and Oracle for real though. I guess I'm an oddball.
Rangers aren't even forced to use ranged weapons. Game is literally unplayable.