Is Point-Blank Shot of Little Value?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


CRB 2e p.144 wrote:

Point-Blank Shot

[Fighter] [Open] [Stance]
Requirements You are wielding a ranged weapon.
You take aim to pick off nearby enemies quickly. When using a ranged volley weapon while you are in this stance, you don’t take the penalty to your attack rolls from the volley trait. When using a ranged weapon that doesn’t have the volley trait, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to damage rolls on attacks against targets within the weapon’s first range increment.
CRB 2e p.143 wrote:

Stance

A stance is a general combat strategy that you enter by using an action with the stance trait, and you remain in for some time. A stance lasts until you get knocked out, until its requirements (if any) are violated, until the encounter ends, or until you enter a new stance, whichever comes first. After you take an action with the stance trait, you can’t take another one for 1 round. You can enter or be in a stance only in encounter mode.

First Question: I see two ways to read the emphasized line in Stance.

1) "You can't take another action for 1 round."
OR
2) "You can't take another Stance action for 1 round."
I assume 2) but the wording is left to interpretation.

Point-Blank Shot seems to have little value because you can only use it once per round. A 1st level Fighter (Archer) takes PBS using a longbow. Ignoring Dex, PBS To Hit = 1 (level) + 4 (Expert) + no longbow penalty = +5. But this is only on the first shot. The second shot of the round they can't use PBS so the To Hit = 1 (level) + 4 (Expert) - 2 (longbow) - 5 (2nd attack) = -2. In addition, because PBS is an action, you can't combine it with Double Shot or any other action feat. In a three action turn you can PBS then Double Shot or Double Shot then PBS, but not both in the same action.

Because you are required to be in a Stance, you either get a +2 To Hit for one shot or +2 damage for one shot per round. It doesn't seem worth it.

What am I missing?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Once you are in a stance you remain in the stance you don't need to keep reapplying the stance and monks would also be unable to function if you read stances as needing to be reapplied or preventing any further actions after using the stance.

Basically what that section of the stance is saying you can only enter one stance in a round.


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No, there are not two ways to interpret this. It says "an action with the stance trait" and it means exactly, and only, that.

You also seem to be missing that you stay in a stance for the entirety of an encounter so long as you stay conscious, maintain the requirements of the stance if it has any, and don't deliberately switch to another stance.

So for 1 action near the beginning of an encounter you turn on the benefits and unless something goes wrong they stay on for all of your actions throughout the rest of the encounter.


pixierose wrote:

Once you are in a stance you remain in the stance you don't need to keep reapplying the stance and monks would also be unable to function if you read stances as needing to be reapplied or preventing any further actions after using the stance.

Basically what that section of the stance is saying you can only enter one stance in a round.

I understand that. You enter a stance as your first action in round 1. You may complete a stance action as either your second or third action of the round. In the second round, you are still in a stance and can use one stance action in any one of your rounds three actions.

I'm talking about the fact that you can't use PBS towards more than one action in any round.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Swiftbrook wrote:
pixierose wrote:

Once you are in a stance you remain in the stance you don't need to keep reapplying the stance and monks would also be unable to function if you read stances as needing to be reapplied or preventing any further actions after using the stance.

Basically what that section of the stance is saying you can only enter one stance in a round.

I understand that. You enter a stance as your first action in round 1. You may complete a stance action as either your second or third action of the round. In the second round, you are still in a stance and can use one stance action in any one of your rounds three actions.

I'm talking about the fact that you can't use PBS towards more than one action in any round.

Where are you getting that? Nothing in the feat says that


thenobledrake wrote:
So for 1 action near the beginning of an encounter you turn on the benefits and unless something goes wrong they stay on for all of your actions throughout the rest of the encounter.

Yes it stays on, but you still only get one stance action per turn. Not all three.


pixierose wrote:
Swiftbrook wrote:
pixierose wrote:

Once you are in a stance you remain in the stance you don't need to keep reapplying the stance and monks would also be unable to function if you read stances as needing to be reapplied or preventing any further actions after using the stance.

Basically what that section of the stance is saying you can only enter one stance in a round.

I understand that. You enter a stance as your first action in round 1. You may complete a stance action as either your second or third action of the round. In the second round, you are still in a stance and can use one stance action in any one of your rounds three actions.

I'm talking about the fact that you can't use PBS towards more than one action in any round.

Where are you getting that? Nothing in the feat says that

From the text of Stance: "After you take an action with the stance trait, you can’t take another [Stance] one for 1 round. "


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I think you're confused about how stances work. It is one action to enter the stance, but you remain in that stance, "until you get knocked out, until its requirements (if any) are violated, until the encounter ends, or until you enter a new stance, whichever comes first."

So unless you have another stance you'd want to swap to in a later round, you'd typically use your first action in combat to enter a stance and it's effects would last until the end of combat (assuming none of the other conditions are met). For Point-Blank Shot, this means as long as you are in the stance and wielding a ranged weapon, you will constantly benefit from the effects of the stance.

So a potential example:
Round 1: Enter Stance, Ranged Attack, Ranged Attack
Round 2: Ranged Attack, Ranged Attack, Ranged Attack

Both of the attacks round 1 would gain the benefit of Point-Blank Shot, as would all 3 attack in round 2.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Swiftbrook wrote:
thenobledrake wrote:
So for 1 action near the beginning of an encounter you turn on the benefits and unless something goes wrong they stay on for all of your actions throughout the rest of the encounter.
Yes it stays on, but you still only get one stance action per turn. Not all three.

POint blank shot isnt a new action. It just makes your regular strikes stronger. It doesn't grant the stance trait to every attack with a bow


Swiftbrook wrote:
pixierose wrote:

Once you are in a stance you remain in the stance you don't need to keep reapplying the stance and monks would also be unable to function if you read stances as needing to be reapplied or preventing any further actions after using the stance.

Basically what that section of the stance is saying you can only enter one stance in a round.

I understand that. You enter a stance as your first action in round 1. You may complete a stance action as either your second or third action of the round. In the second round, you are still in a stance and can use one stance action in any one of your rounds three actions.

I'm talking about the fact that you can't use PBS towards more than one action in any round.

Once you enter the stance, you get its benefits until you leave the stance. So imagine that you enter the stance and then shoot twice that round and three times the next round. All five of those shots gain the benefits of being in the stance.


pixierose wrote:
POint blank shot isnt a new action. It just makes your regular strikes stronger. It doesn't grant the stance trait to every attack with a bow

It has the action icon next to it. So why isn't it an action?


Swiftbrook wrote:
pixierose wrote:
POint blank shot isnt a new action. It just makes your regular strikes stronger. It doesn't grant the stance trait to every attack with a bow
It has the action icon next to it. So why isn't it an action?

It is an action to enter the stance. The stance then gives benefits until you leave the stance. Further attacks are their own actions (Strike), which do not have the stance trait.


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I think I see what I'm missing.

PBS is an action. You enter the PBS Stance. Then the line "While you are in this stance" . . . .

That's what I missed.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Swiftbrook wrote:
pixierose wrote:
POint blank shot isnt a new action. It just makes your regular strikes stronger. It doesn't grant the stance trait to every attack with a bow
It has the action icon next to it. So why isn't it an action?

Because it is an action to enter the stance. Think about it as casting a buff on you. The buff is an action but you get all of its benefits as long as the buff is active.

Edit: Glad you figured it out.


Swiftbrook wrote:

I think I see what I'm missing.

PBS is an action. You enter the PBS Stance. Then the line "While you are in this stance" . . . .

That's what I missed.

Exactly. It's a little different than, say, the way Power Attack includes a strike as part of it's actions. The stances kind of operate in the background.


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It's decent, at low levels it's stronger with a shortbow, but once you get a striking rune a longbow does the same average damage (2d8 and 2d6+2 are both 9 average damage) while doing more damage at a distance and having better crit damage. (And naturally with greater striking the longbow outdamages the shortbow).

Silver Crusade

It's a decent feat one that I have used for my archer-based PCs. Add this with hunted prey and gravity weapon and you have the potential really reach out and hit pretty hard.


A Stance action doesn't actually do any attacking. It just gets the character into a non-standard mode - the 'stance'.

Monk characters have a lot of different stance options available as feats. Fighter and Swashbuckler get a couple. There are probably plenty that I have forgotten about.

The restriction on taking more than one action with the Stance trait during one turn is to prevent strange interactions that may happen. Some of the Monk stances especially are really powerful, but also have some drawbacks. So the restriction is to prevent those types of characters from being able to use the strengths of a particular stance during their turn and then switching to a different stance in order to avoid having the drawbacks during the enemies turns.


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What?


Deriven Firelion wrote:
What?

You can use one action with the Stance trait per round.

Quote:
After you use an action with the stance trait, you can’t use another one for 1 round. You can enter or be in a stance only in encounter mode.

This prevents you from, for example, activating the tiger stance, use flurry of blows, and then swap to crane stance, because of the +1 ac and reaction +3 ac and AoO ( It's just an example of mine ).

Other "limits" ( though I wouldn't call them limits ) might be:

- That stance forces you to only make a specific attack ( like crane or rain of ember stance )
- The stance doesn't necessarily have finesse strikes ( like dragon stance )
- The stance has additional rules ( like the mountain stance, which requires you to be on the ground )


HumbleGamer wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
What?

You can use one action with the Stance trait per round.

Quote:
After you use an action with the stance trait, you can’t use another one for 1 round. You can enter or be in a stance only in encounter mode.

This prevents you from, for example, activating the tiger stance, use flurry of blows, and then swap to crane stance, because of the +1 ac and reaction +3 ac and AoO ( It's just an example of mine ).

Other "limits" ( though I wouldn't call them limits ) might be:

- That stance forces you to only make a specific attack ( like crane or rain of ember stance )
- The stance doesn't necessarily have finesse strikes ( like dragon stance )
- The stance has additional rules ( like the mountain stance, which requires you to be on the ground )

I know how stance works. I'm surprised the OP came to the conclusion he did about Point Blank Shot.


Deriven Firelion wrote:

...

I know how stance works. I'm surprised the OP came to the conclusion he did about Point Blank Shot.

Really? I had a lot of similar confusion about tags and nesting when switching from PF1 to PF2.

"I'm making two Strikes as part of Flurry of Blows while in Mountain Stance? Aaagh!"


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

What about that is Aagh?


It is a lot to keep track of. What interacts with which. What doesn't.

Even more so if you have to translate it all first.


Gisher wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

...

I know how stance works. I'm surprised the OP came to the conclusion he did about Point Blank Shot.

Really? I had a lot of similar confusion about tags and nesting when switching from PF1 to PF2.

"I'm making two Strikes as part of Flurry of Blows while in Mountain Stance? Aaagh!"

Stance wasn't one of the tags that confused me.

Press I had to read closely.

Finisher tag.

I had to read the Polymorph trait a few times, then debate why they bothered to put you can use manipulate traits since it seems like a useless piece of text if you can't cast in polymorph form.

Sure, there are some confusing tags. Stance was pretty straightforward to me.


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Counteract.


Squiggit wrote:
What about that is Aagh?

Now it isn't difficult for me. But trying to figure out how tags and subordinate actions worked was really confusing at first.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
What?

Since you didn't quote it was hard to understand the user you were referring too ( I assumed it was breithauptclan, that's why I explained the stance stuff to you ).


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gisher wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
What about that is Aagh?
Now it isn't difficult for me. But trying to figure out how tags and subordinate actions worked was really confusing at first.

Subordinate actions...

*shudders*

Grand Archive

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Deriven Firelion wrote:
I had to read the Polymorph trait a few times, then debate why they bothered to put you can use manipulate traits since it seems like a useless piece of text if you can't cast in polymorph form.

Casting isn't the only action(s) that has the manipulate trait.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
I had to read the Polymorph trait a few times, then debate why they bothered to put you can use manipulate traits since it seems like a useless piece of text if you can't cast in polymorph form.
Casting isn't the only action(s) that has the manipulate trait.

Indeed. Here's a brief list of things with the manipulate trait:

Actions
Administer First Aid, Affix a Talisman, Conceal an Object, Craft, Disable a Device, Feast on the Fallen, Grab an Edge, Impersonate, Interact, Palm an Object, Pick a Lock, Point Out, Prove Peace, Quick Alchemy, Quick Tincture, Release, Repair, Steal, Stop, Take Control, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, Treat Wounds

Activities
Affix a Talisman

Feats
Accompany, Advanced First Aid, Anoint Ally, Battle Medicine, Bond Conservation, Can't Fall Here, Ceremony of Protection, Conceal Spell, Dig Quickly, Elaborate Flourish, Emergency Medical Assistance, Ferocious Gust, Flame Jump, Focused Juggler, Forcible Energy, Form Control, Friendly Toss, Harmonize, Hydraulic Maneuvers, Improvised Crafting, Instinctive Strike, Juggle, Leyline Conduit, Melodious Spell, Nonlethal Spell, Overwhelming Energy, Poison Weapon, Portentous Spell, Quaking Stomp, Quick Stow (Swordmaster), Reactive Distraction, Reflexive Catch, Reloading Trick, Resuscitate, Slice and Swipe, Surging Might, Surprise Snare, Target of Opportunity, Touch Focus, Train Animal, Treat Condition, Trick Magic Item, Unusual Composition, Widen Spell, Wild Winds Gust

Skills
Administer First Aid, Conceal an Object, Craft, Disable a Device, Impersonate, Palm an Object, Pick a Lock, Repair, Steal, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, Treat Wounds


Ravingdork wrote:
Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
I had to read the Polymorph trait a few times, then debate why they bothered to put you can use manipulate traits since it seems like a useless piece of text if you can't cast in polymorph form.
Casting isn't the only action(s) that has the manipulate trait.

Indeed. Here's a brief list of things with the manipulate trait:

Actions
Administer First Aid, Affix a Talisman, Conceal an Object, Craft, Disable a Device, Feast on the Fallen, Grab an Edge, Impersonate, Interact, Palm an Object, Pick a Lock, Point Out, Prove Peace, Quick Alchemy, Quick Tincture, Release, Repair, Steal, Stop, Take Control, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, Treat Wounds

Activities
Affix a Talisman

Feats
Accompany, Advanced First Aid, Anoint Ally, Battle Medicine, Bond Conservation, Can't Fall Here, Ceremony of Protection, Conceal Spell, Dig Quickly, Elaborate Flourish, Emergency Medical Assistance, Ferocious Gust, Flame Jump, Focused Juggler, Forcible Energy, Form Control, Friendly Toss, Harmonize, Hydraulic Maneuvers, Improvised Crafting, Instinctive Strike, Juggle, Leyline Conduit, Melodious Spell, Nonlethal Spell, Overwhelming Energy, Poison Weapon, Portentous Spell, Quaking Stomp, Quick Stow (Swordmaster), Reactive Distraction, Reflexive Catch, Reloading Trick, Resuscitate, Slice and Swipe, Surging Might, Surprise Snare, Target of Opportunity, Touch Focus, Train Animal, Treat Condition, Trick Magic Item, Unusual Composition, Widen Spell, Wild Winds Gust

Skills
Administer First Aid, Conceal an Object, Craft, Disable a Device, Impersonate, Palm an Object, Pick a Lock, Repair, Steal, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, Treat Wounds

We already had this debate. None of those are anything you would use in a polymorph form for a variety of reasons. I'm not sure why you can't easily see that.

First aid can't be administered because you can't access your healer tools in polymorph form. You also can't use disable device for the same reason or anything that requires you be able to access tools.

So grabbing this whole list absent picking abilities that you would actually use with the Manipulate trait is absolutely pointless. You posted this last time. I showed you how that list was not worth posting because there was almost nothing on it you could use in battle form.

Show me specifically, as in what specific actions, with the manipulate trait you would use in Battle Form that weren't DM caveat to begin with.

Dark Archive

Deriven Firelion wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
What?

You can use one action with the Stance trait per round.

Quote:
After you use an action with the stance trait, you can’t use another one for 1 round. You can enter or be in a stance only in encounter mode.

This prevents you from, for example, activating the tiger stance, use flurry of blows, and then swap to crane stance, because of the +1 ac and reaction +3 ac and AoO ( It's just an example of mine ).

Other "limits" ( though I wouldn't call them limits ) might be:

- That stance forces you to only make a specific attack ( like crane or rain of ember stance )
- The stance doesn't necessarily have finesse strikes ( like dragon stance )
- The stance has additional rules ( like the mountain stance, which requires you to be on the ground )

I know how stance works. I'm surprised the OP came to the conclusion he did about Point Blank Shot.

Well your comment was odd then if that's what you meant. The OP had already been educated and even stated they knew where they went wrong before you ever made your comment. So, it is quite understandable that this person thought you were confused about how stances work.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Deriven Firelion wrote:

We already had this debate. None of those are anything you would use in a polymorph form for a variety of reasons. I'm not sure why you can't easily see that.

First aid can't be administered because you can't access your healer tools in polymorph form. You also can't use disable device for the same reason or anything that requires you be able to access tools.

So grabbing this whole list absent picking abilities that you would actually use with the Manipulate trait is absolutely pointless. You posted this last time. I showed you how that list was not worth posting because there was almost nothing on it you could use in battle form.

Show me specifically, as in what specific actions, with the manipulate trait you would use in Battle Form that weren't DM caveat to begin with.

I don't recall that exchange. *shrug*

I would think Grab an Edge would still be viable in many forms.


You need a critical success to use Grab an Edge without hands, if your GM lets you use it considering the requirements list your hands not being tied behind your back.

Grand Archive

Deriven Firelion wrote:
Show me specifically, as in what specific actions, with the manipulate trait you would use in Battle Form that weren't DM caveat to begin with.

Point Out

Treat wounds/Battle Medicine/ Administer first aid/ treat poison
Interact
Conceal an object

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