Owl's Witch Guide (now with working link)


Advice

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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Also consider Widen Spell. This is normally considered bad due to its cost, but if you are going to be fighting armies of things like Giants out in the open (think Giantslayer or parts of Rise of the Runelords), you might be glad to have it. It isn't just for blasts, but also for battlefield control staples like Black Tentacles; if you do use it for a blast but don't want to specialize in blasting, spells like Cone of Cold (which is on the Witch spell list regardless of Patron) actually start to get a decent range and area with it.

A caution about Bouncing Spell: Be careful of your Swift Action economy when using this.

I'm having trouble getting on board with widen. A 2x black tentacles or sleet storm covers a lot of ground, but are those really good 7th & 6th level spells, respectively? And now we're looking at 54,000 gp for a rod.

I just don't see how widen ranks above so many other feats, even other metamagic feats. What am I missing?


^It depends upon whether you really need to cover that much ground (hence the army of Giants example). Spells that natively cover that much ground aren't very numerous. But yes, the Rod is absurdly expensive unless you make it yourself (or someone else in your party does), and even then it hurts.

By the way, since Black Tentacles doesn't have a Save DC, but works with your caster level figured into the CMB, it is almost as if it has free Heighten Spell built into it, so you really can concentrate on making the area larger if you have the spell levels to spend on it, and it really will act like a respectable 7th level spell against the right enemies.

In other words, I would mark it Orange, but with a note that if you need it, you need it bad.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

^It depends upon whether you really need to cover that much ground (hence the army of Giants example). Spells that natively cover that much ground aren't very numerous. But yes, the Rod is absurdly expensive unless you make it yourself (or someone else in your party does), and even then it hurts.

By the way, since Black Tentacles doesn't have a Save DC, but works with your caster level figured into the CMB, it is almost as if it has free Heighten Spell built into it, so you really can concentrate on making the area larger if you have the spell levels to spend on it, and it really will act like a respectable 7th level spell against the right enemies.

In other words, I would mark it Orange, but with a note that if you need it, you need it bad.

Fair enough.

I added crafting feats, which I generally think witches should avoid. They're not bad choices, particularly wondrous items & scrolls, but for me there are just so many spell & hex feats to focus on first.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

I posted this a week ago, but botched the link. Let's try again.

Owl's Guide to Witches

I started (1st-3rd level spells) writing up my thoughts on why given spells are or are not worth memorizing.

I also started sub-lists of touch range spells & non-wizard spells.

Are there particularly good situational spells that I'm missing? Spells that could be worth memorizing in not-too-uncommon scenarios.


Looking at new stuff (but ignoring spells specific to non-Core races):

Non-Wizard Spells: Vermin Shape I and II are in fact on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, but Witch (and Druid) gets these 1 level early.

Situational Spells: Cantrips

Grasp is a good Cantrip to have if you are going to be climbing in dangerous situations, in case you haven't (yet) gotten the Flight Hex (normally, Feather Fall isn't on your spell list).

Daze could be useful at very low levels for getting the drop on someone; dump it after you pass 4th level. At later levels, Mass Daze (preferably with Extend Spell) would be serviceable as a cheaper alternative to Dazing {Area of Effect Spell}, provided that you aren't facing enemies with good Will Saves (but remember that Dazing {Area of Effect Spell} shines when you need to shift the Save to Reflex, which many high-level enemies are bad at).

Mending -- in case something of yours is busted.

Stabilize (not new, but worth noting) -- you can use this on a downed ally from a distance, which means you can stay out of melee range unless you are up against some monster with humongous Reach.

Situational Spells: 1st Level

Air Bubble -- cheapo Water Breathing, and you normally won't have Water Breathing on your spell list; if you need this a lot, you will run out of uses per creature of the Water Lung Hex, so this is good to have as a backup, although you will want it on a Wand rather than preparing it yourself.

Aphasia -- of some use if you are up against a spellcaster or leader type who has a bad Will Save. Most spellcasters have good Will Saves, but Alchemists and Bloodragers don't, and most martial leaders don't.

Blend -- a decent buff to Stealth, and has a pretty good duration as long as you don't attack anything.

Burning Hands -- good to have against Swarms, although you won't want to rely on this alone.

Charm Person (not new, but worth noting) -- this gets better if you are, for instance, a Halfling.

Cheetah's Sprint -- being able to run at 10 times your normal speed could be useful, although beware that this spell doesn't protect you from Attacks of Opportunity.

Chill Touch (not new, but worth noting) is a spell you want to have if you are up against Undead -- Frostbite is better against non-Undead that are not Cold-Resistant/Immune, but Chill Touch is better against Undead and Cold-Resistant/Immune creatures.

Cure Wounds series -- obviously for patching up your party as long as they don't have Negative Energy Affinity, but better to have it on a Wand than to prepare it yourself. If you are non-Good, Infernal Healing (again on a Wand, not preparing it yourself) is better.

Ears of the City -- a high-speed alternative to Diplomacy for Gathering Information, and the target can use Perception instead of Diplomacy.

Fabricate Disguise -- if you are doing infiltration and have decent investment in Disguise, this could be handy; since it is Instantaneous, once the normal lingering aura of the spell fades, your disguise won't be detected as magical.

Hex Vulnerability -- lets you retry your harmful Hexes on a creature even if you don't have Accursed Hex. Note that a 1st level Wand won't work for you, because the duration will run out before you can use the Hex.

Hex Ward -- good to help your party hold up if you are up against an enemy Witch.

Inflict Wounds series -- normally bad, but if some members of your party have Negative Energy Affinity, you'll want this to patch them up. Have it on a Wand rather than preparing it yourself.

Instant Portrait -- "Here's what the suspect looked like, officer". May be difficult to pull off without alerting the target.

Keyhole -- helps with picking locks, even if the targeted door didn't have on to start with.

Lock Gaze -- this is better on a tanky Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, or Mesmerist than on a Witch, but even so, it could have some use for a Witch -- just make sure that the target doesn't have a good ranged attack and can't easily get into melee range.

Mount and especially its Communal version (not new, but worth noting) -- can also be used as a Wall of Horse Flesh (give you cover).

Murderous Crow (specific to Orc, but by default that includes Half-Orcs) -- summons a decent battle companion for the low levels. Will become obsolete when you get higher level Summon Monster spells, but better than Summon Monster I if you need an avian battle companion.

Night Blindness -- turn the tables on opponents using darkness against you; unlike Touch of Blindness, this is Medium range.

Pierce Facade -- cast this on your party member that has the best Perception score to make them even better at seeing through disguises; has a decent duration, too.

Recharge Innate Magic -- could be of use if you are a Gnome with limited-use spell-like abilities.

Shadow Trap -- prevent an enemy from charging or running away.

Shield Companion -- you're squishy, but your Familiar is even squishier. This will help keep your Familiar alive if you need to send it out to deliver Touch spells or scout, although keep in mind that anything that could 1-shot you will generally still be able to 1-shot your Familiar.

Skim -- helps with library and archaeological research.

Speechreader's Sight -- this may be of use for snooping on someone's conversation; note that the target is You, not whoever's conversation you are snooping on, so they don't get a Save or Spell Resistance. Lasts a long time.

Skin Tag -- the Necromantic way of putting a tracer on somebody if you don't have the Scar Hex. Compared to the Scar Hex, it has no range limit; unlike the Scar Hex, it has a limited duration, but the duration is quite long; it is not as obvious as the Scar Hex; it has a Fortitude Save (instead of Will Save for the Scar Hex), but its Save DC does not scale automatically with your level (however, you could use a Persistent Spell, Heighten Spell, or a combination thereof to make it very hard to resist); and you need to trick the target into consuming something that you embed the spell into instead of directly attacking the target with it (however, under certain circumstances, this might be easier to achieve without being noticed).

Sleep -- a substitute for the Slumber Hex for the very low levels. Dump it after you pass 4th level or once you get the Slumber Hex.

Snowball (not new, but needs correction) -- this just does No Save (but Ranged Touch Attack roll) damage, and doesn't make the target Staggered.

Starsight -- if you have investment in Survival or Profession (Sailor), this could be a decent navigational aid, but only to avoid getting lost -- in the former case, it won't make tracks more visible under the gloom of an overcast or foggy night, and in the latter case, while it will allow you to see the stars through the gloom of a foggy night, it won't allow you to see the shore through the gloom of a foggy night.

Twisted Futures -- if you are up against opponents that have reroll or set-roll powers, this will hose them, especially if somebody in your party can summon Pugwampis.

Unbreakable Heart -- normally, Protection from {Alignment} isn't on the Witch spell list, so this is the next best thing, and it covers some emotion effects that wouldn't be covered by Protection from {Alignment} anyway.

Unhallowed Blows -- normally not much use, but if you are a Gravewalker, this (and eventually its Greater version) will be right up your alley.

Urban Grace (Half-Elf-specific) -- this is a decent buff for yourself in chases.

Whispering Lore (Elf-specific, but by default this also means Half-Elves) -- this could be useful for learning about a town.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Looking at new stuff (but ignoring spells specific to non-Core races):

Non-Wizard Spells: Vermin Shape I and II are in fact on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, but Witch (and Druid) gets these 1 level early.

Situational Spells: Cantrips

Grasp is a good Cantrip to have if you are going to be climbing in dangerous situations, in case you haven't (yet) gotten the Flight Hex (normally, Feather Fall isn't on your spell list).

Daze could be useful at very low levels for getting the drop on someone; dump it after you pass 4th level. At later levels, Mass Daze (preferably with Extend Spell) would be serviceable as a cheaper alternative to Dazing {Area of Effect Spell}, provided that you aren't facing enemies with good Will Saves (but remember that Dazing {Area of Effect Spell} shines when you need to shift the Save to Reflex, which many high-level enemies are bad at).

Mending -- in case something of yours is busted.

Stabilize (not new, but worth noting) -- you can use this on a downed ally from a distance, which means you can stay out of melee range unless you are up against some monster with humongous Reach.

Situational Spells: 1st Level

Air Bubble -- cheapo Water Breathing, and you normally won't have Water Breathing on your spell list; if you need this a lot, you will run out of uses per creature of the Water Lung Hex, so this is good to have as a backup, although you will want it on a Wand rather than preparing it yourself.

Aphasia -- of some use if you are up against a spellcaster or leader type who has a bad Will Save. Most spellcasters have good Will Saves, but Alchemists and Bloodragers...

The "witch-only" list intentionally includes spells that witches get earlier than other classes, as noted in the text.

The list of situational spells if really useful. I'm skipping a few, simply because they're so very situational. E.g. grasp (not on the main list of witch spells, oddly) is of pretty limited use given that climb is not a class skill and a witch's strength is often low.


I wanted to do this for 2nd and 3rd level spells as well, but couldn't fit it in (first, going to have to send out a bunch of mailings for an organization I am in).


just looked at your guide.
id rank up Ashiftah's ghostwalk to blue if used along with the flight hex. as feather fall is an immediate action hex, which allow you to use a standard action for spells\hex. then feather fall flight hex + ghost walk to vanish and be 5 ft away in a different space. until the GM bring out the anti invisible stuff it's very powerful!

also, you left mass suffocation on the 9th level spells.
that one can take out an entire group of enemies with ease (up to 1/level). remember suffocation had 3 saves. if one fail he's most likely our of combat. and this last 1 round per level instead of 3 rounds. i usually get extended for the 5th level one just to nail it in.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

I wanted to do this for 2nd and 3rd level spells as well, but couldn't fit it in (first, going to have to send out a bunch of mailings for an organization I am in).

I just finished incorporating your 1st level spell comments. Thanks once again.

I did pass over ones that improve skills or abilities that a witch will typically be bad at.

Other spells like hex vulnerability feel like a trap. If an opponent saves against your hex, then you can cast this in hopes that they don't save against a 1st level spell, so that you can then try the initial hex again. If the spell itself didn't have a saving throw then it might be worthwhile.

But these quibbles do not diminish how very useful your comments are.

Cheers.


zza ni wrote:

just looked at your guide.

id rank up Ashiftah's ghostwalk to blue if used along with the flight hex. as feather fall is an immediate action hex, which allow you to use a standard action for spells\hex. then feather fall flight hex + ghost walk to vanish and be 5 ft away in a different space. until the GM bring out the anti invisible stuff it's very powerful!

also, you left mass suffocation on the 9th level spells.
that one can take out an entire group of enemies with ease (up to 1/level). remember suffocation had 3 saves. if one fail he's most likely our of combat. and this last 1 round per level instead of 3 rounds. i usually get extended for the 5th level one just to nail it in.

I fear a number of GMs would rule against feather fall activating when you're not falling, solely as a trigger for ghost walk.

However, I added mass suffocation. That's a wonderful spell that I just read right past. Thank ya.


Situational Spells: 2nd Level

Adoration -- if you don't have a Bard or Skald to hand out Morale Bonuses, this can be a decent out of combat buff for your party face (or even in combat, if your party face is doing Performance Combat for some reason).

Aggressive Thundercloud -- if you want something like Flaming Sphere that doesn't get laughed off by Fire Resistance/Immunity, this is for you. As with Flaming Sphere, note that even though you need to use a Move Action to direct it, it doesn't go away if you don't concentrate on it, so if are using your Standard Actions to Hex or cast other spells, and then find out that you have to move yourself by more than 5' (or if you have to cast a Full Round spell), you don't lose the whole spell, just 1 round of directing it. Note that it doesn't move very fast, and covers a very small area (as with Flaming Sphere), so unless you catch enemies in some kind of confined area, most of them will be able to make do with a Move Action to get away from it. Also has a Greater version (4th level spell).

Air Step -- it's pretty limited, but if you need to cross Difficult Terrain or ground-based traps, it has some use. Gets better if you accumulate ranks in Fly, also allowing you to cross liquids. If you have investment in Stealth, this gets better because it makes you very hard to track.

Alter Self -- aside from the possibilities of helping yourself with Disguise, this lets you pick up such abilities as Darkvision, Scent, or a Swim speed, and swap your size between Small and Medium with a better duration than Enlarge/Reduce Person (although you can only use this spell on yourself; on the other hand, it works even if you are not Humanoid).

Alter Summoned Monster -- summoned a monster and then find out you need something else? This lets you swap it out with better action economy and pretty soon better spell slot economy than recasting Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally. It does not have a level limit on what monsters it can exchange other than that you can't exchange a lower level monster for a higher one, so this gets better at later levels when you can summon higher level monsters, potentially all the way up to correcting a Summon Monster IX with a 2nd level spell. Limited by the fact that Witches aren't the best summoners; you could use it on a summons from one of your better-specialized allies, but in that case you have to get past the Will Save of the summons, so better to let them cast this themselves, if possible (this spell is on most spell lists, but notably not Inquisitor, so if you have a Monster Tactician Inquisitor ally, this could be of use in the low levels (the Save DC will fall behind unless you use Heighten Spell or Persistent Spell, which defeats the spell slot economy savings of this spell).

Arcane Disruption -- make it difficult for an enemy arcane caster to do their job. Works on spells, spell-like abilities, and many supernatural abilities. Later on, amplify this with Persistent Spell to make it stick. It does have the limitation that it doesn't work against Swift/Immediate Action spells and abilities, so an enemy caster who can cast Quickened Dispel Magic has a decent chance to shake it off. Not as disabling as Lipstitch, but harder for them to get rid of until they get Quickened Dispel Magic.

Aura of Distraction -- if you are using Arcane Disruption, you can use this spell to make it even more difficult for an enemy arcane caster, but beware that this spell is not selective (unless you have cast it with Selective Spell) and is always centered on you, so only do this if the rest of your party DOESN'T need concentration.

Beastspeak -- since you aren't a Druid, you can't get the Natural Spell and Wild Speech feats, but this spell lets you wing both of them, and you can even cast it when already polymorphed; it has a pretty good duration.

Bestow Insight (Human/Half-Human-Specific) -- a decent buff for a party member who needs to make a very important skill check, in the event that you're worried that Cackle-extending the Fortune Hex on them might cause you to suffer the fate of Sir Robin's Minstrels or alert the guards (or if you already did this earlier). This gives an Insight Bonus, so it will stack with the most common Bard and Skald buffs.

Bone Fists -- a decent buff if you have friends with natural attacks and natural armor.

Boneshaker -- only a wimpy single-target blast against the living unless they are on a ledge or tightrope, but against Undead, you can (if they fail their save or are Mindless) move them around so that everybody in your party gets an Attack of Opportunity against them in 1 round, and then leave them in a maximally flanked position.

Buoyancy -- this is the Feather Fall of nautical adventures, but by low-mid levels can eventually work for your whole party in one casting (useful in case you all get dumped out of your boat). Could also have utility for bringing submerged objects of up to Medium size up to the surface for pickup.

Burdened Thoughts -- if you want to force flying enemies to the ground so that your melee friends can beat them up, this is for you.

Callback -- gets your Familiar out of trouble it may have gotten into while scouting. Has a Greater version, but you probably have better ways to scout by the time you can get that (5th level spell). Note that this spell is only activated by hit point damage, not by other hostile actions. If you are in terrain that has normal birds, use Commune with Birds (see below) instead.

Carry Companion -- if you need to sneak a Familiar or Animal Companion into somewhere where you're not supposed to be able to take it, this is for you.

Commune with Birds -- not too shabby as a scouting spell if you are in an area that has normal birds. Does have the downside that an enemy that has an ability like Speak with Animals can intercept your communication.

Companion Life Link -- an alternative to Callback that also works with an Animal Companion (if you have one), but requires a bit more action on your part. You can call the companion back to you whenever you want instead of having to wait for the automatic trigger of hit point damage, so if you have some way separate from this spell of seeing what is happening to your companion (such as having linen of sight to it, or at high levels having the Scry on Familiar ability), you can get it out of trouble other than hit point damage.

Conditional Favor -- for getting compliance from an untrustworthy creature in intrigue campaigns.

Demand Offering -- if you're up against a boss who uses a manufactured weapon and has a high CMD but a bad Will Save, this is a way to disarm them.

Detect Magic Greater Edition -- this isn't for everyone, but if you are doing forensic magic detection, this is for you. If you are going to be using this a lot, get it on a Wand.

Detect Relations -- when you're up against some deadbeat that won't pay their child support.

Drain Construct -- seriously debuff a Construct, especially if it has Damage Resistance, which can be very nasty at low levels.

Dress Corpse -- seriously interfere with a forensic investigation.

Embrace Destiny -- if you know you've got a skill check coming up and you don't have a use of Fortune Hex available, this is a weird but potentially useful way of getting a reroll, as long as you have a little bit of time to prepare, but not so much that the short spell duration runs out.

Enchantment Sight -- like Detect Magic Greater Edition, but specializing in Enchantments, and having a decent duration that doesn't depend upon concentration.

Enshroud Thoughts -- if you are up against enemies that can Detect Thoughts or Modify Memories, this is for you.

Euphoric Cloud -- unusually for a spell that affects minds, this has a Fortitude Save instead of a Will Save (and DOESN'T have the Mind-Affecting Descriptor), so you could use it against several types of enemy casters (mostly arcane) and have a good chance of making it stick. Note that if they make their Save but can't get out, they have to keep making Saves until they can get out.

False Life (www.d20fsrd.com version given because Archives of Nethys page has errors) -- a passable Temporary Hit Point reservoir at low levels, which you can also use to prevent some Ability Damage (but not Drain); ditch it once you get past the low levels, and don't bother with the Greater version, which is 2 levels higher but scarcely an upgrade.

Familiar Figment -- sort of a Mirror Image for your Familiar, but more durable yet usually lesser in number. The Flanking feature could help your Familiar get off a Touch Attack. If only you could somehow get Sneak Attack on your Familiar . . . .

Find Traps -- No Rogue, or Rogue traded out Trapfinding? This gets you through the finding (but not Disable Device) part. This includes the situation in which you are a Witch Arcane Trickster with Sneak
Attack not accompanied by Trapfinding.

Fleshy Facade -- not of use to most Witches, but if you are a Gravewalker needing to disguise one of your minions, this is for you.

Flurry of Snowballs -- sort of a cold version of Burning Hands with a larger area, but while it starts out stronger, it doesn't scale even if you have Intensified Spell, so ditch it after 5th level.

Force Sworc -- an early way of getting a temporary magic Longsword. The spell doesn't give you proficiency with it or compensate for your 1/2 BAB and likely low Strength (even if you did somehow have proficiency), so give this to one of your martial allies.

Frost Fall -- this is the low-level area-of-effect Cold spell that makes enemies Staggered if they fail their Fortitude Save. Technically Area of Effect, so it will work on Swarms, but has a very small area.

Gentle Repose -- you don't want to need this spell, but if you have to take a slain comrade back to town for a Raise Dead that you can't do yourself, you will need this.

Ghost Whip -- not a bad spell, but even though the spell gives you proficiency with the Ghost Touch Whip it creates, you probably won't have the BAB or combat feats to make good use of it unless you are an Arcane Trickster or some kind of Witch Gish.

Hidden Presence -- Invisibility isn't normally on the Witch spell list, so this is the next best thing.

Hidden Speech -- if your party needs to pass secret messages to each other in front of others, this could be of use, although this will get risky if you are up against an equal-level Inquisitor.

Hold Fey -- Hold Person on a Fey, and doesn't even cost a higher level spell slot.

Illusory Maze -- could be useful in chases, to slow down an enemy group and potentially get them out of position relative to each other.

Intensify Psyche -- a somewhat risky way to buff your party face's Diplomacy and Sense Motive; Competence Bonus, in case you're wondering what else it stacks with.

Investigative Mind -- if you don't have the Fortune Hex and need to do library or archaeological research, this could be quite useful to boost your chances of success.

Ironskin -- a decent self-armor buff. Mage Armor lasts a lot longer, but this spell eventually gives a higher defensive bonus, and also has the option to dismiss it to negate a Critical Hit or Sneak Attack.

Lead Anchor -- Save or Die against an obligate air-breathing enemy in water.

Levitate -- since this works on objects weighing up to 100 pounds/level, this remains of some use even after you get Fly or the Flight Hex (in the latter case, only if you need more than one casting per day, since at 3rd level the Flight Hex gives you one casting of Levitate per day). You will be able to use this to lift objects larger than you can lift yourself (eventually even with Muleback Cords), and you could use Fly or the Flight Hex to tow them around.

Limp Lash -- a nasty and rapid No Save debuff to an enemy's physical ability scores (and if not countered, fairly quick paralysis).

Locate Portal -- unlikely to be much use at the low levels, but might come in handy at the later levels in an adventure that goes transplanar.

Mask Dweomer Communal Edition -- if you need to go undercover and conceal your party's magic, this is for you. A non-communal edition exists as a 1st level spell, but that is less likely to be useful unless you are an Arcane Trickster.

Masterwork Transformation -- may be useful if you are an item crafter (otherwise, skip it).

Merge with Familiar -- another way to keep your Familiar safe and/or sneak it in somewhere you aren't supposed to take it.

Minor Dream (Gnome-specific) -- cheapo way of sending somebody a message in a dream.

Mirror Hideaway -- if you need to make a Trojan Mirror, this is for you. Can accept up to 8 Medium creatures, so this is a way to sneak a pretty good-sized party in somewhere, although anyone who has a Large Animal Companion will need additional magic (such as Carry Companion -- see above) to get them in.

Molten Orb -- molten metal splash weapon, so it can affect Swarms; more damage than Burning Hands and no Save, but not more damage than Intensified Burning Hands near the top end of its range, and it takes longer to do its full damage than Burning Hands.

Mortal Terror -- stronger Fear effect than Cause Fear or Scare, and no hit dice limit. The requirement for a target to pass multiple Saves to keep the effect from getting worse means that this synergizes very well with Persistent Spell.

Mud Buddy -- an Unseen Servant made of mud, but can also make one Trip attack with a decent CMB.

Necrostasis -- make an Undead target Staggered.

Protection from Spores -- protection from some normally rare bu very nasty fungal attacks, even Green Slime.

Protective Penumbra -- useful if one of your allies is an Orc or Drow, or if you are a Gravewalker Witch with a Wraith, Spectre, or Vampire minion.

Psychic Leech -- debuff an enemy Barbarian (this works for a short time even if they make their Will Save).

Reinforce Armaments Communal Edition -- if your party is up against a Sunder-happy enemy, this might be what you want. A non-communal version exists as a 1st level spell, but that is probably of less use unless you are some kind of Witch Gish or your party has only 1 martial.

Returning Weapon Communal Edition -- if your party likes to throw weapons, this is for you. A non-communal version exists as a 1st level spell, but that is probably of less use unless you are some kind of Witch Gish or your party has only 1 martial.

Rock Whip -- makes a whip of rock that can go through unworked stone and ignores Natural Armor and gives you proficiency, so you might even get some hits off with it despite being 1/2 BAB, at least at low levels; however, the real draw of it is the ability to use it make Bull Rushes with a decent CMB.

Rune of Rule -- this gives 1 of 7 buffs that lie dormant for up to 1 day (so, if you have an unused 2nd level spell slot at the end of the day, prepare this in it and cast it on a party member) and then can be used in 1 round. The real draws are to cast the Rune of Humility on your Sneak Attacker so that they can get into position without provoking Attacks of Opportunity, or cast the Rune of Temperance on any party member other than yourself to give them a reroll against a poison or disease.

Scare -- not as strong as Mortal Terror, and limited to 6 hit dice, but works on multiple creatures. Ditch it after 6th level.

Sensory Overload -- target has to save every round or lose actions, so a pretty good debuff.

Shadowmind -- under the right lighting conditions, this acts as a Mass Blindness.

Silent Table -- For when you need a private conversation in a public place.

Staggering Fall -- Immediate Action to make a creature that falls Staggered. This is good to have if you or another party member has a good way to Trip opponents.

Status -- keep track of your party scout, or even the whole rest of the party. You might not want to depend upon this in a dungeon, but you might need it when you split up for information gathering and resupplying within a town.

Steal Voice -- debuff a caster who has a bad Fortitude Save (mostly arcane casters).

Summon Swarm -- at low levels, this may be better than anything you can get with Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally; many enemies won't have a good way to deal with Swarms.

Transmute Wine to Blood -- useless for most witches, but could be of use for a Gravewalker Witch who has a companion who never drinks . . . wine.

Twilight Haze -- like Fog Cloud, but works in wind or under water; on the other hand, if you were expecting to use magic items to cut through a Fog Cloud (while your opponents can't), most of them probably won't work on this.

Umbral Weapon -- buff your martial ally's weapon so that they can hit even when they miss.

Whip of Spiders -- Swarm Distraction is a decent debuff, and since you are making Touch Attacks with it, you will be able to get some hits off even with your 1/2 BAB.

Wicker Horse -- like Mount (but with no Communal version), but you can make specialized versions that can swim or climb and stealth, or move very fast, or be especially tough.

Zone of Truth -- not as good as it sounds, because you can't be sure whether the creatures within made their Will Saves.


Going to be a while before I can do the 3rd level spells. I stayed up WAY too late doing the 2nd level spells. Before doing this, I already knew that people had been unfairly giving the Witch spell list a bad rap, but I didn't realize just how many potentially useful spells Witch has, some of which Wizard wished they had . . . .

Additional thoughts about Zone of Truth: While the above note about its limitations holds, you do have better ability than most classes (probably even better than an Inquisitor) to debuff a target to Hell, the Abyss, Abaddon, Leng, Xovaikain, and the Dark Tapestry, to make it unlikely for them to make their Save, and then you can use Detect Thoughts as a follow-up to at least have a decent idea of whether they somehow managed to make their Save anyway. So depending upon just how much debuffing you have built for (doesn't have to be specialized for this particular purpose, except make sure to know Detect Thoughts), this one could be flickering from Orange into Green territory.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Situational Spells: 2nd Level

Adoration -- if you don't have a Bard or Skald to hand out Morale Bonuses, this can be a decent out of combat buff for your party face (or even in combat, if your party face is doing Performance Combat for some reason).

Aggressive Thundercloud -- if you want something like Flaming Sphere that doesn't get laughed off by Fire Resistance/Immunity, this is for you. As with Flaming Sphere, note that even though you need to use a Move Action to direct it, it doesn't go away if you don't concentrate on it, so if are using your Standard Actions to Hex or cast other spells, and then find out that you have to move yourself by more than 5' (or if you have to cast a Full Round spell), you don't lose the whole spell, just 1 round of directing it. Note that it doesn't move very fast, and covers a very small area (as with Flaming Sphere), so unless you catch enemies in some kind of confined area, most of them will be able to make do with a Move Action to get away from it. Also has a Greater version (4th level spell).

Air Step -- it's pretty limited, but if you need to cross Difficult Terrain or ground-based traps, it has some use. Gets better if you accumulate ranks in Fly, also allowing you to cross liquids. If you have investment in Stealth, this gets better because it makes you very hard to track.

Alter Self -- aside from the possibilities of helping yourself with Disguise, this lets you pick up such abilities as Darkvision, Scent, or a Swim speed, and swap your size between Small and Medium with a better duration than Enlarge/Reduce Person (although you can only use this spell on yourself; on the other hand, it works even if you are not Humanoid)....

I've been going through these intermittently. Great stuff, thanks. A few responses/quibbles below. Please let me know if I've misread or misunderstood anything of note.

Cheers

arcane disruption -- At 1st level a wizard needs to hit 11 with 1d20+3 (assuming a +2 int bonus). At 8th level the wizard needs to hit 14 with 1d20+12 (+4 from int). That's a 1/3 chance of failure, falling off quickly.

boneshaker -- 3d6 plus 1d6 per 2 levels is significant damage at low-to-mid levels, and still respectable at upper levels.

embrace destiny -- This spell is of limited value if you need to ensure you get a good roll. But it could certainly help you avoid a specific bad roll.

euphoric cloud -- I had just missed this. This is a terrific spell.

false life -- I think this is even better at higher levels. Sure, it's only 15 hp or so, but what else were you doing to do with a 2nd level spell today Mr/Mrs 14th level witch?

ghost whip -- In my mind the Venn diagram of witches & capable whip wielders might not even overlap. :)

masterwork transformation -- witches want so many feats that crafting arms & armor is pretty unlikely.

necrostasis -- This seems like too modest a debuff to justify a round. What am I missing?

rock whip -- I just don't see a witch wanting to spend their turns clearing away enemies and doing 1d8, and only then if they hit. Maybe if this was resulting in consistent attacks-of-oppontunity from your party members it would make sense.

scare -- Prior to 6th level you only get 1 target, and after that you're not confronting a lot of 5 hd opponents.

sensory overload -- a better spell than I'd realized. At least "green".

staggering fall -- This seems like a too-situational "hold person", though with a fort rather than will save.

summon swarm -- isn't vomit swarm just better, since you can direct it?

umbral weapon -- Replacing a miss with 1d8+level/2 is hard to get excited about.

whip of spiders -- Vomit swarm seems preferable, though you have greater control here.


Arcane Disruption: Do note that you can stack it on top of other things that require a Concentration check (and many of those things more strongly penalize the casting of higher level spells, although this doesn't do so by itself). If you don't do that, then it does fall behind at higher levels.

False Life: What was I going to do with a 2nd level spell slot at 14th level? Well, the list of 2nd level spells is pretty long, and what I listed above + the list in the guide didn't even get everything (although I THINK I got all the ones that you didn't cover that aren't either bad or specific to skills that Witches don't normally have or specific to a non-Core race).

Necrostasis: Making an Undead boss Staggered for 1 round/level isn't too shabby, and if they are already Staggered (including from a previous casting of this spell), they become Dazed for a round, which might be what your Rogue needs to be able to shank them.

Rock Whip: If you use this against something with heavy natural armor, which it bypasses, you might have some success pushing them around, since their Touch AC may not be so good, and the spell actually gives you a decent CMB. It isn't for the damage, which is rather wimpy.

Scare: I read it wrong -- 1 target per 3 levels cuts down its power quite a bit. For some reason I thought it was a cheapo Cone of Fear.

Staggering Fall: Depends upon whether you have somebody in the party who can Trip reliably, or if you can set up slippery Difficult Terrain (Ice Slick, or allied caster who has Grease).

Summon Swarm: True, you can direct Vomit Swarm, but it has to start adjacent to you, whereas Summon Swarm has some range on it (enough that you don't have to bee in enemies' melee range unless they have a LOT of Reach), and explicitly says you can put it in other creature's squares.

Umbral Weapon: Think about putting this on the weapon of an allied martial who specializes in whacking enemy spellcasters who try to cast while nearby. Then, even if they miss their Attack of Opportunity, they might still hit. Or think about if they have some kind of rider on their attack (Spellstrike or Sneak Attack, for instance) -- this gives it a second chance to stick.


Good to have some free PF1e Witchin' guide stuff out there. ;)


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^Especially since before this came out, only the Veneficus archetype-specific guide was reasonably up to date.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Arcane Disruption: Do note that you can stack it on top of other things that require a Concentration check (and many of those things more strongly penalize the casting of higher level spells, although this doesn't do so by itself). If you don't do that, then it does fall behind at higher levels.

False Life: What was I going to do with a 2nd level spell slot at 14th level? Well, the list of 2nd level spells is pretty long, and what I listed above + the list in the guide didn't even get everything (although I THINK I got all the ones that you didn't cover that aren't either bad or specific to skills that Witches don't normally have or specific to a non-Core race).

Necrostasis: Making an Undead boss Staggered for 1 round/level isn't too shabby, and if they are already Staggered (including from a previous casting of this spell), they become Dazed for a round, which might be what your Rogue needs to be able to shank them.

Rock Whip: If you use this against something with heavy natural armor, which it bypasses, you might have some success pushing them around, since their Touch AC may not be so good, and the spell actually gives you a decent CMB. It isn't for the damage, which is rather wimpy.

Scare: I read it wrong -- 1 target per 3 levels cuts down its power quite a bit. For some reason I thought it was a cheapo Cone of Fear.

Staggering Fall: Depends upon whether you have somebody in the party who can Trip reliably, or if you can set up slippery Difficult Terrain (Ice Slick, or allied caster who has Grease).

Summon Swarm: True, you can direct Vomit Swarm, but it has to start adjacent to you, whereas Summon Swarm has some range on it (enough that you don't have to bee in enemies' melee range unless they have a LOT of Reach), and explicitly says you can put it in other creature's squares.

Umbral Weapon: Think about putting this on the weapon of an allied martial who specializes in whacking enemy spellcasters who try to cast while nearby. Then, even if they miss their Attack of...

I incorporated most of this. I felt like I was splitting hairs in some sort of "just how orange is this spell?" internal monologue.

I've started going through the 3rd levels spells in more depth. E.g. I had read the saving throw info for Excruciating Deformation wrong, and it's a better spell than I'd realized.


Had a thought: For Familiars for a Small Witch at low levels (before you can get much use from Improved Familiar), what do you think about a Goat or Pig (both of which are Small and have a non-negative Strength modifier) and the Undersized Mount feat? This gives you a bit better action economy when you need to move, and could even improve your effective movement rate(*) if you buff them enough to get past Encumbrance. In most cases this will mean putting Muleback Cords on them. This is a Shoulders Slot item, so valid for quadrupeds; also still a good affordable item to have even if you later upgrade to an Improved Familiar (although I wonder if you could convince a Small Earth Elemental or Small Water Elemental to take a quadruped form? -- this is the only Improved Familiar I know of that is Small other than the Nuglub Gremlin, which is definitely not quadrupedal).

(*)For instance, if you are a Gnome, or a Halfling that couldn't take the Fleet of Foot alternate racial trait because you had to trade Sure-Footed for something else.

Goat: Has some skill at climbing, and has a slightly better Strength; boosts your Survival skill; can Step into Difficult Terrain.
Pig: Has Scent and a bonus to Perception, as well as a better Fortitude Save; boosts your Diplomacy skill.
Small Earth Elemental (if you can convince it to be quadrupedal): Has Burrow and Earth Glide (although you won't be able to ride it at the same time) and pretty good Strength and climbing skill, as well as pretty good Stealth, and Tremorsense, Darkvision, and not too shabby Perception; on the downside, it's slow. Although by the time you can get this, the Flight Hex and the Fly spell (in case the Flight Hex doesn't have enough time on it) come online, so this gets to be less useful.
Small Water Elemental (if you can convince it to be an aquatic quadruped): For a watery campaign, instead of climbing skill and Burrow/Earth Glide, has a super-fast Swim speed that you would have trouble replicating with Hexes and spells until you get the proper Polymorph spells; Strength is only a little bit worse than Small Earth Elemental, and the Drench ability could even come in handy if you have a fire on the ship.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Had a thought: For Familiars for a Small Witch at low levels (before you can get much use from Improved Familiar), what do you think about a Goat or Pig (both of which are Small and have a non-negative Strength modifier) and the Undersized Mount feat? This gives you a bit better action economy when you need to move, and could even improve your effective movement rate(*) if you buff them enough to get past Encumbrance. In most cases this will mean putting Muleback Cords on them. This is a Shoulders Slot item, so valid for quadrupeds; also still a good affordable item to have even if you later upgrade to an Improved Familiar (although I wonder if you could convince a Small Earth Elemental or Small Water Elemental to take a quadruped form? -- this is the only Improved Familiar I know of that is Small other than the Nuglub Gremlin, which is definitely not quadrupedal).

(*)For instance, if you are a Gnome, or a Halfling that couldn't take the Fleet of Foot alternate racial trait because you had to trade Sure-Footed for something else.

Goat: Has some skill at climbing, and has a slightly better Strength; boosts your Survival skill; can Step into Difficult Terrain.
Pig: Has Scent and a bonus to Perception, as well as a better Fortitude Save; boosts your Diplomacy skill.
Small Earth Elemental (if you can convince it to be quadrupedal): Has Burrow and Earth Glide (although you won't be able to ride it at the same time) and pretty good Strength and climbing skill, as well as pretty good Stealth, and Tremorsense, Darkvision, and not too shabby Perception; on the downside, it's slow. Although by the time you can get this, the Flight...

1. You're a gnome

2. Improved familiar: faerie dragon
3. Enlarge person on your faerie dragon via "share spells"
4. Permanency -- with a cost of 2500 gp this should come to 5,000 gp from a local wizard.
5. Reduce person on yourself, again with permanency for another 5,000 gp
6. Several ranks in the skill Ride


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I do like a goat mount for halflings though. Maybe re-skin it as a bighorn sheep.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
I've started going through the 3rd levels spells in more depth. E.g. I had read the saving throw info for Excruciating Deformation wrong, and it's a better spell than I'd realized.

I finished another pass through 3rd level spells, adding "orange tier" options. My general threshold is: spells that most witches should consider, though I'm unsure how consistently that standard has been applied.

Any suggestions for spells I've overlooked, overrated, or underrated are appreciated.


I haven't gotten through the detailed inspection of 3rd level spells yet, but here's a bit of Limburger (weapons-grade cheese) for you -- but it requires a bit of digression before getting to the spell part:

If you are a Half-Elf with the Kindred-Raised alternate racial trait to give you +2 Charisma in addition to the floating +2 (which you put on Intelligence as normal, unless you are a Seducer), it isn't too hard (just 3 Point Buy points) to get 15 Charisma, which (in addition to Eldritch Heritage) is the prerequisite for Improved Eldritch Heritage. Sadly, you need Skill Focus (bonus skill of selected Bloodline), which unfortunately Kindred-Raised trades out. Back to the drawing board . . . But . . . VMC Sorcerer to the rescue! Gives you the 1st level Bloodline Power at 3rd level, and gives you the 3rd level Bloodline Power at 7th level, in exchange for the corresponding feats, with no Skill Focus prerequisite, and no need for Kindred-Raised (although that still isn't a bad idea for its own sake if you want to be decent at Charisma-based skills without needing to cram in a bunch of traits).

Okay, now, you want the Shapechanger Bloodline. The 1st Level Bloodline Power (gained at 3rd level) is mainly a feat-equivalent tax (although you might be able to get some limited use out of it), but the 3rd level Bloodline Power (gained at 7th level) is what you really want. This initially extends any Transmutation spell normally having a 1 minute per level duration that you cast on yourself to 10 minutes per level, and at 9th level (11th level if you went the more up-front feat-intensive Eldritch Heritage route) it extends this to 1 hour per level. Here's where the spell comes in. Paragon Surge is a Transmutation Spell that you cast on yourself that normally has a duration of 1 minute per level. At 9th level, the Shapechanger 3rd level Bloodline power will make it last for 9 hours, which is enough to get a day's crafting done. You qualify for most Crafting feats (very few have another crafting feat as a prerequisite), so you can use Paragon Surge to take one of these feats on downtime days, without ever having to actually invest a feat slot in a Crafting feat.

Now, the problem with VMC Sorcerer is that you can't quit it -- at 11th level, you get a Bloodline Feat or Eschew Materials; at 15th level you get the 9th level Bloodline Power; and at 19th level you get the 15th level Bloodline Power. Fortunately, the selection of Shapechanger Bloodline Feats is decent if not outstanding -- you could plausibly want one of these anyway (the standouts are Great Fortitude and Improved Initiative, with honorable mentions to Combat Casting and Extend Spell). The 9th level Shapechanger Bloodline Power would have been better on a Magus or Bloodrager, but you could might be able to get decent use out of it by way of a combination of Greater Invisibility (not on your list, so use Paragon Surge to grab Craft Ring for a bit and make a Ring of Greater Invisibility) and a multi-touch spell like Persistent Chill Touch or Heightened (to increase Rime duration) Rime Frostbite. The 15th level Shapechanger Bloodline Power gives you immunity to any Polymorph spell you don't want, and gives you a once per day movement speed improvement to any Polymorph spell you cast on yourself, so it isn't too shabby, although it comes very late. For the last 2 Bloodline Powers, if you don't want these, Eldritch Heritage and its Improved version finally become less feat-intensive than VMC Sorcerer at 15th level. (For an actual Seducer Witch, Kindred-Raised is not necessary to get the Charisma needed(*) since it is the casting stat, and Skill Focus (Disguise) using Half-Elf Adaptability has a decent chance to be actually useful, so Eldritch Heritage and its Improved version are the way to go.)

(*)Some Intelligence investment will be needed just to have enough skill points per level, and the Cunning feat will likely be needed for this as well.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

I haven't gotten through the detailed inspection of 3rd level spells yet, but here's a bit of Limburger (weapons-grade cheese) for you -- but it requires a bit of digression before getting to the spell part:

If you are a Half-Elf with the Kindred-Raised alternate racial trait to give you +2 Charisma in addition to the floating +2 (which you put on Intelligence as normal, unless you are a Seducer), it isn't too hard (just 3 Point Buy points) to get 15 Charisma, which (in addition to Eldritch Heritage) is the prerequisite for Improved Eldritch Heritage. Sadly, you need Skill Focus (bonus skill of selected Bloodline), which unfortunately Kindred-Raised trades out. Back to the drawing board . . . But . . . VMC Sorcerer to the rescue! Gives you the 1st level Bloodline Power at 3rd level, and gives you the 3rd level Bloodline Power at 7th level, in exchange for the corresponding feats, with no Skill Focus prerequisite, and no need for Kindred-Raised (although that still isn't a bad idea for its own sake if you want to be decent at Charisma-based skills without needing to cram in a bunch of traits).

Okay, now, you want the Shapechanger Bloodline. The 1st Level Bloodline Power (gained at 3rd level) is mainly a feat-equivalent tax (although you might be able to get some limited use out of it), but the 3rd level Bloodline Power (gained at 7th level) is what you really want. This initially extends any Transmutation spell normally having a 1 minute per level duration that you cast on yourself to 10 minutes per level, and at 9th level (11th level if you went the more up-front feat-intensive Eldritch Heritage route) it extends this to 1 hour per level. Here's where the spell comes in. Paragon Surge is a Transmutation Spell that you cast on yourself that normally has a duration of 1 minute per level. At 9th level, the Shapechanger 3rd level Bloodline power will make it last for 9 hours, which is enough to get a day's crafting done. You qualify for most Crafting feats (very few have another...

I think you finished up with the right answer: half-elf seducer witch with eldritch heritage & improved eldritch heritage. That's a nice build. Now ... what other transmutation spells are worth considering?


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
I think you finished up with the right answer: half-elf seducer witch with eldritch heritage & improved eldritch heritage. That's a nice build. Now ... what other transmutation spells are worth considering?

I just sketched this out. The issues I see are:

1. The seducer is sub-optimal, taking charm at 1st level and then trading out 2 hexes for sub-optimal abilities.
2. The "sexy witch" trope seems challenging to play without either just ignoring it 98% of the time or bringing more finesse to the table than most players possess.
3. You don't get the hour/level paragon surge that you're going for until 11th level.

So the total cost is: 2 feats & 3 hexes to get the ability to choose the feat of your choice daily. I have trouble thinking that you're not better off taking the 2 feats & 3 hexes you'd prefer.

See the "sample witch builds" spreadsheet I link to at the end of the guide. I'll remove this tab after a couple days, since it's not a recommendation I want folks to follow.


^Looked at it. Yes, the Seducer is sub-optimal for all the issues you describe. I wouldn't recommend going Seducer just to get the cheese, but it you have a Seducer for some other reason, its REALLY STINKY CHEESE. That's why I wanted to show a way to do this for other archetypes (or lack thereof), and VMC Sorcerer gets you online at level 11 with equal feat investment, less Hex opportunity cost, and less Point Buy expenditure.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
I've started going through the 3rd levels spells in more depth. E.g. I had read the saving throw info for Excruciating Deformation wrong, and it's a better spell than I'd realized.

I finished another pass through 3rd level spells, adding "orange tier" options. My general threshold is: spells that most witches should consider, though I'm unsure how consistently that standard has been applied.

Any suggestions for spells I've overlooked, overrated, or underrated are appreciated.

Orange-tier spells added through 5th level. Please call out any I've missed, or over/under-rated.

Cheers.


IMO:
Read magic is useful when you acquire new scrolls, not so much for ones you already have. It's usually a downtime thing.

Cheetah's sprint

Alter summon monster is notable for those few summons that last a decent amount of time. Even if you can't direct a mount (possibly communal or heightened) spell to attack, enemies may assume otherwise. And a flying mount is better than a horse.

Cold damage spells like frost fall are great with rime spell.

Ironskin is important (if allowed; it may be duergar-only) because witches have few defensive spells.

Anything that uses your familiar is iffy for a witch (IMO) because putting your bat or whatever where it can be hit is potentially painful and expensive.

Eagles are actually on the summon monster 1 list not SM3. Admittedly, summoning 1d4+1 eagles is a valid use of a SM3 spell.

Also important re conditional curse: it has a range.

Enervation is a solid debuff if and only if you have metamagic on it, or you have enough spell slots to cast it multiple times against one enemy. Otherwise it's barely more than the shaken condition. It's a high level thing.


avr wrote:

IMO:

Read magic is useful when you acquire new scrolls, not so much for ones you already have. It's usually a downtime thing.

Cheetah's sprint

Alter summon monster is notable for those few summons that last a decent amount of time. Even if you can't direct a mount (possibly communal or heightened) spell to attack, enemies may assume otherwise. And a flying mount is better than a horse.

Cold damage spells like frost fall are great with rime spell.

Ironskin is important (if allowed; it may be duergar-only) because witches have few defensive spells.

Anything that uses your familiar is iffy for a witch (IMO) because putting your bat or whatever where it can be hit is potentially painful and expensive.

Eagles are actually on the summon monster 1 list not SM3. Admittedly, summoning 1d4+1 eagles is a valid use of a SM3 spell.

Also important re conditional curse: it has a range.

Enervation is a solid debuff if and only if you have metamagic on it, or you have enough spell slots to cast it multiple times against one enemy. Otherwise it's barely more than the shaken condition. It's a high level thing.

Really useful comments all around. Thanks so much.


avr wrote:


Alter summon monster is notable for those few summons that last a decent amount of time. Even if you can't direct a mount (possibly communal or heightened) spell to attack, enemies may assume otherwise. And a flying mount is better than a horse.

I just added this note for the 6th level Spectral Saluqi, who lasts for 10 minutes/level. Cheers.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
I've started going through the 3rd levels spells in more depth. E.g. I had read the saving throw info for Excruciating Deformation wrong, and it's a better spell than I'd realized.

I finished another pass through 3rd level spells, adding "orange tier" options. My general threshold is: spells that most witches should consider, though I'm unsure how consistently that standard has been applied.

Any suggestions for spells I've overlooked, overrated, or underrated are appreciated.

Orange-tier spells added through 5th level. Please call out any I've missed, or over/under-rated.

Cheers.

Orange-tier spells added through 6th level. Please call out any I've missed, or over/under-rated.


Delectable flesh is good, but it's a ghoran-only spell. With an Int penalty few ghorans are witches. They could make acceptable seducers I guess. Not worth a mention IMO.

Source severance is worth mentioning OTOH. Turn off divine spellcasting near you like an antimagic field.

No love for the fey form spells? There's weird utility in them. Similarly shadow transmutation.

Vengeful outrage is an interesting buff if there's a non-barbarian martial character in your party, and may occasionally be useful to turn one enemy on another. Orange maybe?


(Forewarning: It has been a while since I looked at the Fey Form spells, but I do remember something I thought of around that time.)

Since Fey Form gives you some substitution of your spells with Spell-Like Abilities, if you find a spell you need that you can do this to, AND you need to Silence yourself for stealth purposes, this gives you a way to cast those spells while under stealth without needing to spend a feat or buy an expensive Metamagic Rod.


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avr wrote:

Delectable flesh is good, but it's a ghoran-only spell. With an Int penalty few ghorans are witches. They could make acceptable seducers I guess. Not worth a mention IMO.

Source severance is worth mentioning OTOH. Turn off divine spellcasting near you like an antimagic field.

No love for the fey form spells? There's weird utility in them. Similarly shadow transmutation.

Vengeful outrage is an interesting buff if there's a non-barbarian martial character in your party, and may occasionally be useful to turn one enemy on another. Orange maybe?

I removed delectable flesh, hadn't seen that it's ghoran only.

Added source serverance. The 5' radius is pretty modest, but it's a very powerful effect in the right scenario.

I need to look through the fey forms. The basic issue with polymorphing a witch is that they're terrible in combat and they can typically fly. So then it's a matter of cataloging the spells & spell-like abilities. And that's on my list...

And I added vengeful outrage. I hadn't considered its use as a buff for an ally. That still doesn't make it an amazing spell (i.e. I agreed with your orange categorization), but that at least broadens its utility.

One blind spot I have is that I typically consider a spell for its utility when you first get it. E.g. if I'm 7th or 8th level what 4th level spells would I most want? But of course those choices change dramatically when you're 17th or 18th level.

Thanks again.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

(Forewarning: It has been a while since I looked at the Fey Form spells, but I do remember something I thought of around that time.)

Since Fey Form gives you some substitution of your spells with Spell-Like Abilities, if you find a spell you need that you can do this to, AND you need to Silence yourself for stealth purposes, this gives you a way to cast those spells while under stealth without needing to spend a feat or buy an expensive Metamagic Rod.

That's a good point. Plus you're not provoking an attack of opportunity with a spell-like ability.

Cheers.


HIIIII question um have we looked at the Impundulu Improved Familiar? I've been informed that for witches it gives you access to another set of patron spells and that sounds dope as f~!!.


HIIIII question um have we looked at the Impundulu Improved Familiar? I've been informed that for witches it gives you access to another set of patron spells and that sounds dope as f!!*.


IluzryMage wrote:
HIIIII question um have we looked at the Impundulu Improved Familiar? I've been informed that for witches it gives you access to another set of patron spells and that sounds dope as f!@#.

Thanks. I used a shorter (and likely older) list of improved familiars. The impudulu is new to me. An initial difficulty is its NE alignment, when most parties are good-ish. A true neutral witch could have it though.

Then you have an imp or a quasit, which each have pretty good abilities: flight, resistances/immunities/DR & invisibility. And you gain another patron from among agility, elements or transformation. Of those you'd likely take agility (haste!), but neither elements nor transformation are bad choices.

The down side seems to be that if you die your soul is eaten, precluding any sort of resurrection.

Since resurrection doesn't figure into most campaigns, this is overall a net win for the witch.


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Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
I've started going through the 3rd levels spells in more depth. E.g. I had read the saving throw info for Excruciating Deformation wrong, and it's a better spell than I'd realized.

I finished another pass through 3rd level spells, adding "orange tier" options. My general threshold is: spells that most witches should consider, though I'm unsure how consistently that standard has been applied.

Any suggestions for spells I've overlooked, overrated, or underrated are appreciated.

Orange-tier spells added through 5th level. Please call out any I've missed, or over/under-rated.

Cheers.

Orange-tier spells added through 6th level. Please call out any I've missed, or over/under-rated.

I've added orange-tier spells through 7th level. I'm on the fence with the last two: waves of ecstacy & waves of exhaustion. They seem right on the orange/green boundary. For now I have them green, but that could change.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

{. . .}

Since resurrection doesn't figure into most campaigns, this is overall a net win for the witch.

Based upon following PbPs (although I am WAY behind with that now), I would generally agree, but will add that while it doesn't figure into most campaigns, it does seem to figure into a decent percentage of them.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
I need to look through the fey forms. The basic issue with polymorphing a witch is that they're terrible in combat and they can typically fly. So then it's a matter of cataloging the spells & spell-like abilities. And that's on my list...

There's a couple of abilities which stand out besides the SLAs. A quickling's supernatural speed, or a whisperer's natural attacks (six 3d10 touch attacks w/20'reach can make a witch reconsider melee) and blindsight.

High CR fey have a lot of SLAs while still being no more than large size, fey form 2 provides all you need in that respect.


avr wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
I need to look through the fey forms. The basic issue with polymorphing a witch is that they're terrible in combat and they can typically fly. So then it's a matter of cataloging the spells & spell-like abilities. And that's on my list...

There's a couple of abilities which stand out besides the SLAs. A quickling's supernatural speed, or a whisperer's natural attacks (six 3d10 touch attacks w/20'reach can make a witch reconsider melee) and blindsight.

High CR fey have a lot of SLAs while still being no more than large size, fey form 2 provides all you need in that respect.

I cannot for the life of me find the rule to the effect of: you can use a spell-like ability if it's a spell you could otherwise cast. I just can't remember the details. Do you have to have it currently memorized? If so, does it expend that spell? If you don't have to have it memorized, do you have to know that specific spell or does it just have to be available to your class?

In general I think that fey form is going to require a good bit of close reading for me. But that's certainly on my list.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

I cannot for the life of me find the rule to the effect of: you can use a spell-like ability if it's a spell you could otherwise cast. I just can't remember the details. Do you have to have it currently memorized? If so, does it expend that spell? If you don't have to have it memorized, do you have to know that specific spell or does it just have to be available to your class?

In general I think that fey form is going to require a good bit of close reading for me. But that's certainly on my list.

fey form I wrote:
You can more easily cast spells that the creature has as spell-like abilities, although you must still cast them as normal for your class. When you cast a spell that the creature has as a spell-like ability, it requires no verbal or somatic components and can’t be countered.

I think that's what you're thinking of. The spells don't become SLAs but they do become like SLAs.


^So I understand the concept, but what should we call them? SLLAs? SLALAs?


Spells Like Spell-Like Abilities. SLSLAs, obviously.


avr wrote:
Spells Like Spell-Like Abilities. SLSLAs, obviously.

Thanks so much! I lean toward spell-like ability spells, as long as we're voting.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
avr wrote:
Spells Like Spell-Like Abilities. SLSLAs, obviously.
Thanks so much! I lean toward spell-like ability spells, as long as we're voting.

Just added fey form ii. Did I miss any options of note?


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
avr wrote:
Spells Like Spell-Like Abilities. SLSLAs, obviously.
Thanks so much! I lean toward spell-like ability spells, as long as we're voting.
Just added fey form ii. Did I miss any options of note?

A norn for maze among other SLASs. The quickling with its supernatural speed, and perhaps a sprite because it's sometimes useful being 9 inches tall. Both of those require FF3 though. Well, so does the whisperer's blindsight, not that that's the only reason to turn into a whisperer. FF1 has its points simply because it's lower level and some of those SLASs won't have aged out of utility yet.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
I've started going through the 3rd levels spells in more depth. E.g. I had read the saving throw info for Excruciating Deformation wrong, and it's a better spell than I'd realized.

I finished another pass through 3rd level spells, adding "orange tier" options. My general threshold is: spells that most witches should consider, though I'm unsure how consistently that standard has been applied.

Any suggestions for spells I've overlooked, overrated, or underrated are appreciated.

Orange-tier spells added through 5th level. Please call out any I've missed, or over/under-rated.

Cheers.

Orange-tier spells added through 6th level. Please call out any I've missed, or over/under-rated.
I've added orange-tier spells through 7th level. I'm on the fence with the last two: waves of ecstacy & waves of exhaustion. They seem right on the orange/green boundary. For now I have them green, but that could change.

8th level spells now include orange tier options.

Still to come -- 9th (obv.) and a fuller review of the fey form spells.


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I created this summary of Fey Form I-IV, almost entirely drawing on the "polymorph guides" I linked to in the main doc.

I now link to this from each entry for Fey Form in the main witch guide.

What am I still missing here? Thanks again to one & all.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
I would blue Protective Luck Hex. On its own, it doesn’t do much, but it is cackleable, which is a big boost, and soothsayerable, at which point you are more likely to find it banned than insufficiently effective.
I get what you're saying about protective luck, but I'm not sure it's quite top-tier. I did add it to the writeup for soothsayer.

I've been chewing on this. I haven't played a witch that uses protective luck & soothsayer (& fortune?), but the utility is clear. I want to add an example build that goes this direction.

Have you played such a witch, or had one in your party? What worked or didn't? How hard did you lean into buffing, or was that to add breadth rather than a specific focus? Did you use fortune & soothsayer together, or wait to see that a specific encounter was important enough to justify the 1/day limit on fortune?

I'd certainly appreciate seeing any builds if you have them.

Cheers,
Owl

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