Hi there! I'm new to PF2e, coming from a heavy 5E optimization background.
My observation regarding optimization thus far is that while the gap between optimized and non-optimized builds is smaller in PF2E compared to 5E, there is still a gap.
Thus, I'm wondering what are some of the build options that are considered must-haves for any optimized table.
Note, I'm not asking what are THE most optimized builds in each class, just which options are considered a must to be considered optimized for each class if any exist at all.
For example, Attack of Opportunity seems like a no-brainer for Barbarians, considering they don't have much else to do with their reaction.
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It's usually going from no reaction to have a reaction.
Increasing the number of reactions if you can trigger them also do the job, like gymnast swashbuckler picking AoO to activate on trips and then the extra reaction to riposte.
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I'll list what I think is the most optimal four class party combination.
Bard: Obviously provides bard buffs and Synesthesia from the Occult spell list. In general you want the muse that gives you Inspire Heroics for the biggest numerical shift possible in the game.
Champion: Best battlefield control martial with highest potential AC who can reduce damage substantially.
Cleric: Best healer in the game. Though I think you could probably substitute a druid in place of a cleric and have a better combination of healing, blasting, and utility.
Fighter Damage Dealer: A 2-handed weapon fighter damage dealer who can slam down on things with the best chance to hit and crit.
That would be one of the most optimized and dangerous parties you could build in PF2.
But as you stated, the classes aren't that far apart. You substitute quite a few classes and do fine in a given party. I think the above class combination provides the most benefits with the fewest weaknesses.
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PF2 optimization works differently from PF1 optimization, and I suspect 5E optimization is more like PF1 optimization.
In PF1, optimization tended to be about the character itself, developing an ability so strong, no enemy could resist it. This kind of optimization is pretty much dead in PF2. You can't raise stats that high, the bandwidth is always going to be that anything you have to make a roll for, will have odds where you can actually fail. Besides that, monsters and other challenges in PF2 are often set up so that no single technique will work well on all of them.
PF2 optimization has four main aspects to it:
- Creating synergies between characters
- Taking the best approach to the situation
- Getting the most use out of your action budget
- Noncombat optimization
Synergy
For example, synergy: suppose one person is playing a Swashbuckler and uses Bon Mot to debuff enemies so they gain panache. But there's nobody in the party really doing anything with the enemies now that their will save has been debuffed. That's not optimal! You're leaving advantage on the table. You could pick a different swashbuckler style like Braggart, because Demoralizing enemies is about the same difficulty but more people can profit from it. Or maybe someone else in the party decides, hey there's all these Will-debuffed enemies; maybe I should learn more Will-targeting spells?
A lot of classes have things going on where they could do this awesome thing, if only certain circumstances were the case. But making those circumstances happen is a bit tricky for that class - but easy for another one. For example, someone would like to play a ranged rogue, but it's hard to actually get enemies to be flat-footed against ranged attacks. Can't flank them, can't feint them. So it's not a great build. Unless! If you're playing with a one-hand style fighter who uses Snagging Strike and Combat Grab, or who likes to trip enemies; then there's lots of flat-footed enemies that you can shoot. Or maybe there's a bard in the party who took Dirge of Doom that makes all enemies that hear it Frightened; and you took Dread Striker which means all frightened enemies are also flat-footed to you. Suddenly it's really easy to play this ranged rogue.
Situations
PF2 is designed to make it hard to always use the same best tactic. For just about any kind of weapon or ability you can think of, there's enemies that are pretty well protected against that. For example, maybe you like the shortsword on your rogue. It's finesse, it's agile, got a decent damage die. Pretty good. But you run into skeletons and they resist slashing and piercing damage. You could chip away at them, but if you also had a light mace, you'd do much better.
It's not always this obvious - sometimes enemies have a weakness that your primary attack isn't exploiting. And the monster has extra HP to compensate for that weakness. So if you don't exploit the weakness, it's harder for you than. Let's say your rogue decided that skeletons were a problem, and went light mace only. Now he runs into zombies who have a huge weakness to slashing damage, but also a big bag of HP. If you'd kept your sword, you would have an easier time in this fight.
Responding to the situation can also mean not doing any of the things you're normally good at. Suppose your cleric friend and your rogue are in an abandoned town and there are a dozen zombies coming to eat you. You could fight a couple of zombies in melee and win, but this is a lot of zombies. If you get mobbed it'll go badly for you. Also, the zombies can Grab you automatically as an action if they just hit you. However, the zombies are slow and get only two actions per round. So if they aren't next to you, they'd have to move close, attack, and then wouldn't have actions left over to Grab you. And actually, their walking speed is lower than yours so if you spend two actions to move, they can't get to you. So what you could do is that you just run around, rarely attacking at all, just leading the zombies around on a goose chase. Meanwhile your cleric buddy climbed onto a roof where the zombies can't easily get to him. Every time you lead the zombies past him, he casts a Disrupt Undead to pick one off. It'll take a while, but you could fight off overwhelming enemies without taking any damage yourself. Yes, you didn't use the abilities you're best at, but you won a perfect victory. Isn't that optimal?
My advice here is to think of PF2 more as a "plan B optimization" game. When you get into a situation, think of what is actually the best tactic. And afterwards, think about what feats, equipment and spells could have been really good and maybe buy them. Be prepared for many different situations, instead of hoping that all situations are suitable for your Plan A.
Actions Optimization
You normally get three actions per round, plus a reaction. From an optimization standpoint, you want each of those actions to be useful.
Let's start with Reactions. Not every class even has any reaction abilities. Feats that give you a good reaction (like Attack of Opportunity) are good choices for them. For classes that already have a reaction like a fighter, picking up more reactions is less useful because you won't be able to use all of them. Sometimes there's still synergy though. A champion for example can create a situation where there's just nothing an enemy can do that you can't punish them for. If they attack you, you use shield block. If they walk away, you make an attack of opportunity. And if they attack your friends you use your special champion reaction.
Next to that is normal actions. You get three per turn. But if you just spend all of them making attacks, the third attack will be at a -10 penalty. That's not good. If instead you spent your first action debuffing the enemy and then the second and third on attacks, that would probably be stronger. So a lot of character building is focused on the question "what abilities can I take, so that I can almost always use all of my actions usefully?"
For some characters, it's the other way around. They actually have a lot of things they want to do, and not enough actions to do them. A sword and board fighter for example, might like the Double Slice feat to hit a lot. But he also needs an action to raise his shield. Which becomes a problem if he also needs an action to move to the enemy. So for this character we're looking for feats that save actions. He could pick up Reactive Shield to at least get the AC bonus of a shield, thus freeing up that action to move. Or he might decide that he's not always going to Double Slice, but that if he's not doing that, he wants to move around a lot, and he doesn't have great speed because he's in fullplate. So he takes Sudden Charge to move faster if he's forced to move. Or maybe he takes a Wizard dedication, and can cast his own Haste spell.
Non-Combat Optimization
The game isn't all about combat. You'll probably spend a significant percentage of game time on other things. Ideally, you're actually good at it so that you get to do cool stuff, instead of waiting for other people to do all of it and your dumb fighter can go back to fighting.
Also, non-combat stuff will actually help in combat. If your party can negotiate, you might get useful information or some special weapons that are useful in the next battle. If you can climb, you can get treasure that's located high up. If you can disable traps, you can avoid damage and debuffs that would have made the next fighter harder. And so on.
With how DCs work, it matters a lot whether you're seriously investing in skills. But each character gets only so many skill increases. An optimal party would divide responsibilities so that all skills are done well by someone. And yeah, rogues do get a lot of skill increases. But they can't be the best at all ability scores at the same time, so it still makes sense for example for the barbarian to be the Athletics specialist.
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I'll list what I think is the most optimal four class party combination.
Bard: Obviously provides bard buffs and Synesthesia from the Occult spell list. In general you want the muse that gives you Inspire Heroics for the biggest numerical shift possible in the game.
Champion: Best battlefield control martial with highest potential AC who can reduce damage substantially.
Cleric: Best healer in the game. Though I think you could probably substitute a druid in place of a cleric and have a better combination of healing, blasting, and utility.
Fighter Damage Dealer: A 2-handed weapon fighter damage dealer who can slam down on things with the best chance to hit and crit.
That would be one of the most optimized and dangerous parties you could build in PF2.
But as you stated, the classes aren't that far apart. You substitute quite a few classes and do fine in a given party. I think the above class combination provides the most benefits with the fewest weaknesses.
Bard and shield champion I totally agree with. These are unique in their abilities. The other two are more roles.
Cleric, druid, primal or divine witch/sorceror would fit the role of healer(/blaster).
A fourth would be DPR, fighter fits that role, as would flurry ranger or barbarian. Possibly medic as archtype, which gives all chars healing.
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I think humility plays a factor. PF2's combats can be culture shock to those coming from 3.X/PF1/5th ed. You're maxed out? Cool, so are most of your enemies. They will hit you. Combats aren't a race w/ your allies to gain the highest kill count because most y'all can solo the encounter; they're puzzles where you decide which sort of teamwork would suit.
Of course maxed out has a different meaning in a game with tight power curves. Did you choose offense or defense? That Champion has game-changing defense, yet had to settle for modest offense and mediocre mobility. And in some parties, like where she has squishy comrades, she's the MVP w/ her damage mitigation while in other parties her allies are wondering why she can't keep up or why she insists on keeping close when obviously spreading out would be better vs. this specific enemy. And can't she do anything vs. ranged enemies?
And sometimes the beefy martial has to skirmish because nobody in the party should face the Big Boss's 3-action attack routine or they need to deny it the ability to both cast & Strike or the party needs to spread out vs. its plethora of AoEs. A developer suggested this week that taking a Step away from an enemy is usually better than Raising a Shield (and Raising a Shield is typically -25% to your enemies' damage even w/o Shield Block). Yet how many of us veterans reflexively move forward, perhaps giving a plethora of legit enemies extra actions by moving for them?
Walk into a pack of wolves or a nest of snakes and they will tear your PC apart w/ their post-Strike debuffs (Knockdown, Grab, Constrict, etc.)
I've seen several complaints about the difficulty of PF2, and in most of them it's because they're applying rush-and-smash tactics (often w/ offensive martials that can't survive the response).
So some humility, and the wariness which comes from that, would be wise.
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Also flexibility.
As mentioned, one-trick ponies work less well in PF2, even if that trick is blunt and straightforward. What can you (both as an individual and as a party) do at range? When skirmishing? When toe-to-toe? Vs. bosses? Vs. thugs? Vs. hordes? Vs. oozes & swarms? Vs. high-AC/high Resistance enemies? Of course it's difficult to cover all of one's bases alone, but as a team it's not so hard. I would err on the side of most people being able to tackle most jobs rather than relying say on the blaster to handle all AoE needs. How cool would it be if the party faces an army and the Dragon Barbarian breathes and the Monk unleashes a Ki Blast on top of what the casters unleash?
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And I'm going restate Ascalaphus's point about synergy; a lot of great abilities to set up a class's shtick are found in other classes where it'd be costly or impossible to pick up. Ex. A Rogue's Battle Assessment would be quite valuable for a caster looking for which saving throw or weakness to exploit. Much better for the Rogue to snag that w/ their ally's needs in mind.
It's difficult in PF2 to be one's own force multiplier, yet not so hard to boost an ally. Several people have complained on the boards about debuffs that end at the start of one's next turn because they can't make use of it. Well duh, it's for your allies. Just make sure, as w/ the Bon Mot example above, that you're teamed w/ allies that can exploit the debuffs you're giving them.
And imagine a party where everyone took the feats that gave bonuses to close allies? If selected so they stack, that could add up, which matters in a game w/ tight power curves (which in turn is why the Bard is always mentioned in discussions like this).
And make sure that you're not all applying the same debuffs since they seldom stack. Try to have a variety. Flat-footed (circumstance) & Frightened (status) are the most common so perhaps try for other types w/ Slowed/Stunned being solid aims. Heck, even denying Reactions to a boss can prevent a lot of hurt.
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And lastly, also as mentioned, much optimization in other RPGs involves one's character sheet. One could run a white-room analysis and predict much of any battle. PF2 has shifted a large amount of the balance to the battlefield. Tactics matter more than before, so a build which allows for a variety of tactics, and types of teamwork, is the path toward optimization. Recall Knowledge is one way to help with this.
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My players def consider a dedicated healer to be night and day, I suspect that could still be parceled out somewhat if multiple casters take some healing magic, but they def help their team disproportionately and a dedicated build can let you really turn up the output. Healing Clerics, Angel Sorcerers, Life Oracles, Hymn of Healing Bards, some kinds of Druid and so forth all do this pretty damn well.
Magic Missile can make low level boss fights super comfy, and the spell scales pretty well so while its far from the only way to handle bosses, its a very reliable way.
Good Aligned Champions have a unique role in party composition because they can mitigate damage directly with their reaction, which can be pretty damn big.
Reaction Attacks are as in every TTRPG, a prime source of damage optimization, here it's especially huge because you can perform them without the multiple attack penalty you build up over a turn. So Attack of Opportunity, Stand Still, Retributive Strike, Opportunistic Strike.
Some form of Frightened is pretty big too, whether that comes from the Fear spell, Demoralize, Alchemist Bombs, the upcoming Vengeful Dead spell or what-- lowering AC and Saves is just that good.
Flat-Footed from more than just Flanking is fantastic for the AC reduction as well, especially since it goes straight to -2, its huge, especially if you want to use Attack Spells.
Action Denial is big, so Slowed or Stunned, or in some circumstances, prone is good to have.
True Strike is currently considered the Meta for Spell Attacks, don't expect to use any without True Strike, that might be less strict once Secrets of Magic comes out though.
AOE is very important for some encounters, it can turn some brutal swarms into cakewalks, and make groups of at level creatures easier to deal with.
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I wanna separate this out from the more practical advice above, but generally the most effective strategy features three flexible components:
1. Set up Actions that apply buffs and debuffs, could be a Bard's Inspire Courage increasing hit and crit rates, or a Barbarian's Demoralize that applies frightened, or a Fighter using Knockdown to Prone enemies or whatever.
2. Damage Actions that capitalize on the set up, could be a Fireball that hits a bunch of frightened targets or some kind of damage focused Blender routine, or whatever.
3. Mitigation Actions that stop people from dropping and let you continue applying steps 1 and 2, could be healing that undoes big attacks, could be slowed and stunned, or a champion's reaction straight mitigating the damage, or whatever.
My group is seemingly (and of course, relatively) unique in that they can pretty handily take on even +4 Monsters and Extreme Encounters easier than the book implies they should be able to and while the above advice is general, I think this distills the meta that they've developed. One key note is that these aren't party roles per say, because they can be spread out and mixed-- the person applying frightened can be a barbarian using the first action on their turn to demoralize before striking twice, as much as someone casting a fear spell for their main thing that turn. Similarly, while you'll see some people talking about debuffing casters and damaging martials, you can invert that pattern just as effectively, albeit less intuitively-- martials that spend time applying trip, demoralize and so forth can make their casters hit like a truck too, while still dealing damage themselves.
If we accept this, it also makes sense that Character Optimization relies heavily on action lubrication, you want to be able to do as much as possible, for as few actions as possible-- that can be lots of attacks or damage as with Twin Takedown or Double Slice, that could be hitting lots of Targets with a fireball for two actions and doing a lot because someone applied a fear spell before you. Every hit that becomes a crit from set up, or any miss that becomes a hit, or even for spells a crit success that becomes a regular success, pretty much immediately accounts for the opportunity cost of the actions used to perform the set up, but then often, you have more opportunities from that same set up to make it count for even more after-- frightened, between the additional hits and the additional crits during the round(s) its active, can easily be worth far more damage than you 'gave up' to achieve it.
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Well, looks like I am too late. I had plenty of things to contribute to this - and then realized that Ascalaphus and Castilliano already covered everything I was going to say. For character optimization: diversify to be useful in more situations and decide what to do to be effective with all three actions and reaction. But more importantly, synergize and play tactically with the rest of the party. This edition rewards teamwork much more than power-building.
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One thing that's really important, is to keep an open mind and open eyes. If you've determined on paper that a melee fighter is the best build, but it turns out that your GM loves flying archer monsters, then what's optimal in your campaign is different.
This is of course a very blatant example, but there are lots of others;
- Taking anti-undead options is better in a campaign where undead are a major theme. In an urban intrigue game they might not do very much for you.
- Same for the ability to do Good damage; it's rarely useless, but it becomes blazing hot in a campaign with a lot of demons.
- If your party spends months in the wilderness without any NPC backup, then a cleric that can prepare any Remove Boo-Boo spell you need becomes superior to the divine sorcerer than only knows some of them.
- Piercing weapons seem to catch the short end of the stick against most monster weaknesses/resistances, but if you're playing a campaign with lots of underwater action, that changes.
- If your GM loves the kind of skill challenge where everyone has to roll something, then everyone having many skills becomes more important. In another campaign, it might be more often that "one of you needs to do this" and then it's more about getting specialists.
- A gaming group with give players gets more out of all-party buffs like Inspire Courage because there's just more people to benefit from them. A 3-player group might want to invest more in abilities that let them fight off superior numbers of enemies, because that'll happen more.
- If you typically have only a few encounters per day, then daily resource abilities like spells are stronger than when you tend to do a lot of them in one day.
- If your campaign takes place a lot in houses with 5ft corridors then archers aren't as good as when you play more in the outdoors.
One thing that's really important, is to keep an open mind and open eyes. If you've determined on paper that a melee fighter is the best build, but it turns out that your GM loves flying archer monsters, then what's optimal in your campaign is different.
This is of course a very blatant example, but there are lots of others;
- Taking anti-undead options is better in a campaign where undead are a major theme. In an urban intrigue game they might not do very much for you.
- Same for the ability to do Good damage; it's rarely useless, but it becomes blazing hot in a campaign with a lot of demons.
- If your party spends months in the wilderness without any NPC backup, then a cleric that can prepare any Remove Boo-Boo spell you need becomes superior to the divine sorcerer than only knows some of them.
- Piercing weapons seem to catch the short end of the stick against most monster weaknesses/resistances, but if you're playing a campaign with lots of underwater action, that changes.
- If your GM loves the kind of skill challenge where everyone has to roll something, then everyone having many skills becomes more important. In another campaign, it might be more often that "one of you needs to do this" and then it's more about getting specialists.
- A gaming group with give players gets more out of all-party buffs like Inspire Courage because there's just more people to benefit from them. A 3-player group might want to invest more in abilities that let them fight off superior numbers of enemies, because that'll happen more.
- If you typically have only a few encounters per day, then daily resource abilities like spells are stronger than when you tend to do a lot of them in one day.
- If your campaign takes place a lot in houses with 5ft corridors then archers aren't as good as when you play more in the outdoors.
Well said, the way PF2e handles base progression and makes many abilities situational means that while there's less need to optimize, you also have to tailor your optimization to the game itself. With Exploration and Downtime playing such a big role in the game overall, but not necessarily at every table, it really varies.
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Well said, the way PF2e handles base progression and makes many abilities situational means that while there's less need to optimize, you also have to tailor...
How does Downtime play such a big role in the game?
And it seems to me that Exploration plays a big role in every PnP game, what makes you say that it's specifically big in PF2?And thanks everyone for the great explanations, I'm learning a lot!
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Well said, the way PF2e handles base progression and makes many abilities situational means that while there's less need to optimize, you also have to tailor...How does Downtime play such a big role in the game?
And it seems to me that Exploration plays a big role in every PnP game, what makes you say that it's specifically big in PF2?And thanks everyone for the great explanations, I'm learning a lot!
From an optimization standpoint, it allows the following:
1. Retraining: You can switch up feat chains once you hit a level when another feat chain might become more optimial.
As someone mentioned above, a ranged rogue is very difficult to make at early levels. But around lvl 10 a ranged rogue becomes quite easy to make and maintain flat-footed on foes at range. So you could take some downtime to shift your abilities to optimize a ranged rogue.
2. Some classes benefit from item creation. If you have crafting, you can make some low cost, high value items like true strike scrolls or something similar cheap and quick to expand your spellcasting capacity for the next challenge.
Item creation in PF2 isn't as advantageous as PF1, but you can still get some use out of it as you level when lower level items become easy and cheap to construct.
3. Gold Earning: You can earn money to buy items in your downtime using some skill. It's on par with crafting, but DM caveat is a factor. The DM decides if you can use a particular skill in a given area to earn coin at a given level.
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Let's talk about party composition. As I said before, working together and trying to find build pieces that work together is a big deal. But are there any roles in the party that are indispensable or just plain optimal?
Well I think the good news is: there are very few mandatory roles in the group. You can get through a typical AP with very different parties and do well.
Frontliner if you don't have someone holding the frontline of the party, all of the party is going to take a beating from monsters coming at you. This means the archers and casters are constantly being chased around, burning actions on getting to a safe spot to cast and so forth. Without a frontliner, one monster can deny multiple characters a lot of actions.
There's a lot to be said for not giving this job to only one character. Monsters in PF2 hit accurately and hard. A single character taking all the hits has trouble staying up. Two or three characters taking turns and sharing the load do much better. Consider in particular the Champion. The champion wants other characters within 15ft to take some of the hits, so that they can use their champion reaction. A champion protecting three archers is taking all the hits and not using all their powers. A champion/fighter pair protecting two archers is leveraging more power.
Damage Dealer if you can't do enough damage to monsters, you're going to lose. There is no defense or healing good enough to save you if you can't down enemies.
Healer and I'm actually talking mostly about post-combat healing. You're probably going to have multiple fights in a day. If you're going into those already battered and bruised, life will be nasty, brutish and short for you. The good news is that you don't need to be a specific class to do this. The Medicine skill and skill feats are enough to fulfill this role, or alternatively a champion or blessed one with Lay on Hands. You might think that clerics and druids are the standard healers, but actually rogues do it a lot because they can get those skill feats very quickly. And since they're also often tasked with finding traps, being Wisdom heavy is pretty okay for a rogue.
The other side of healing is "spike" healing: providing a lot of fast healing in the middle of combat. This isn't something you want to be doing a lot, because no source of healing is plentiful enough to keep this up for long. But it is useful if a particular character is in danger of being knocked out - it's more efficient to keep someone in the fight than to bring them back in the fight. And a party with everyone fighting is more powerful than a party with only some people fighting and the rest bleeding on the floor.
But spike healing is basically a second to last resort thing. "Healer" isn't a full-time job, you expect that character to be contributing in other ways and only resorting to healing if it's needed. If the cleric or rogue can kill an enemy before that enemy does more damage, that's really a much better way to "heal" your party.
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I will second teamwork and party composition being the most important. Also a bit level dependent, and a bit GM dependent. Some optimisation things not currently mentioned.
- Consumable spamming - Lots of consumables are quite good, and very cheap at 7 or 8 levels above their item level. 100 level-7/8 consumables approximately equal the price of a permanent item. At high levels, this means heroism (6) scrolls, heal (4-5) scrolls, disappearance scrolls and some talismans are also good as well. Weapon Talismans are a bit special because you only need to be wearing the item to activate them, and most don’t require you actually use the affixed item. So you could have 30 +0 daggers with fear gems, and use your +3 major striking greatsword of slaying for all the intimidating strikes. Get Trick Magic Item, it is your friend.
- Can’t really stress enough how much the idea for martials is to get more MAPless attacks more often. Extra reactions are good - how are you triggering them? Think about this hard. A fighter can get 3 reactions a round - a general one, an AoO and a riposte. AoO and riposte aren’t a guarantee, but you can make them a lot more likely to trigger.
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I suggest an optimal party composition will be
Fighter (Flickmace+Gauntlet)
Rogue (Any weapon doesn’t matter too much) because of the synergy with Fighter using prep, backstab and leave an opening or Champion (Paladin, flickmace/glutton’s jaws and shield)
Both the rogue/champ and fighter should go into Charisma as their 4th stat to get all the good charisma skills - most importantly you want Scare to Death for mooks at high levels.
Bard (maestro) undeniably the best buffer and debuffer in the game. Will add a huge amount of support to the 2 martials.
4th slot is free though I suggest a second caster, Arcane Sorc crossblooding for Heal is good. Wizard with Halcyon Speaker archetype can also work.
Other people about covered it like Deriven is totally right, but another element is how the rulebook presents them on par with encounter mode, while you can certainly play this game out as a series of encounters the support for the two modes of play, all the features related to it you naturally get from skill feats and such all just push it toward being a more holistic experience than PF1e, 5e, or 4e were-- they basically strapped OSR style dungeon crawling procedures to a modern game-- in theory this means that some games will experience a relatively revolutionary meta where 'adventuring' as a whole is optimized
e.g. how good are you at finding hidden treasure, how good are you at sneaking past things, how good are you at finding secret passageways or traps, how good are you at talking creatures down, how good are you at disabling the traps the party finds.
In summary, games can play very differently--whether by giving you access to ways of controlling your item gain and such like Deriven said, or in these more radical ways.
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Some optimization recommendations that are general:
1. Flank/Flat-footed: Always try to get a flank or the flat-footed condition similar to the way you always tried to get advantage in 5E. It reduces opponent AC and you want it as often as possible. Flank is the easiest way to get this.
2. Action Control is the best way to reduce enemy damage: You can do this a variety of ways. You can't rely on AC as monsters are meant to hit. So the best way to reduce their combat potential is force them to use actions for non-combat actions like movement.
Mobility: If you can force a creature to use move actions to make their attacks, you just reduced their action count.
Action Reducing Abilities: Stun, Slow, causing them to flee.
3. A Good Third Action. You want good third action abilities other than swing a weapon. Your 3rd action attack is at a low probability to hit against boss and same level creatures.
So you want some kind of good third action ability. Intimidate. Bon Mot. Witch Hex. You'll find lots of options.
For casters if you use a save spell that doesn't increase your MAP (Multiple Attack Penalty), have a weapon to use.
4. A Reaction Ability for a Martial. It's always good to have some kind of reaction ability as a martial, usually AoO. Something to give you an extra off-round attack with no MAP.
Reaction abilities for casters are few and not great. So don't worry about it.
5. Debuffs are everyone's best friend. Understand your debuffs as in when to cast them and how they work.
If you have a sorcerer with Intimidate, remember you can set up your own spell by intimidating first and then casting against a target with a reduced save.
Debuffs are very powerful and useful in this game. Debuffs that reduce everything are the best followed in general by debuffs that reduce AC like Clumsy as that helps all the martials.
6. AoE Spells are king in this game for casters. The more targets making saves with a possible critical failure for the highest possible damage makes a big difference for casters. You won't start feeling powerful as a caster doing damage until you can cast more powerful AoE spells.
7. Don't spend too much time worrying about AC unless you're a champion. Get your minimum AC and then don't worry about it. It is debuffs and action reduction that will save the party more than worrying about high AC. Monsters are built to hit, fights are built to be fast and furious, don't expect to avoid getting hit in this game unless you are building some high AC champion.
9. Martials are the single target boss damage kings. Unless a caster gets lucky with a missed critical save against a damage spell, then martials are the damage kings against boss monsters. Accept it as that is where they shine whereas casters shine in most other areas as they level up.
That means don't worry about trying to optimize a caster for single target damage. PF2 is specifically built to allow martials to do the most consistently high single target damage against powerful monsters.
10. Maxed out Medicine with skill feats on at least one character is absolutely optimal. One character has to bite the bullet and max out Medicine to ensure you get at or near maximum hit points every battle.
11. Don't ignore your Skill Feats. Optimize skill feats as well. Understand how they work. Learn the high value combat skills and what they do.
The earlier example of a ranged rogue can be built using Deception to Create a Diversion, then attack the target flat-footed even with a ranged weapon on the first attack. You can pick up the skill feat Confabulator to reduce the penalty for ongoing use of Create a Diversion to make it better as you level.
12. Don't underestimate magic items. Magic items in PF2 are boring. But you should not at all underestimate their usefulness. Item bonuses to skills you use often are a big deal. You should make sure to pick up items to boost your skills as well as your standard weapon increases and expanded spellcasting items.
13. Party Synergy. Set things up with other members of the group. If you want to focus fire a target, then have the caster use intimidate to debuff them. Then other party members can use different actions to help each other succeed.
14. The Aid Action can be useful. You can use aid to help hit a target as a third action with a static DC that isn't too difficult. This can be highly useful in coordinated combat against a boss monster.
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4. A Reaction Ability for a Martial. It's always good to have some kind of reaction ability as a martial, usually AoO. Something to give you an extra off-round attack with no MAP.
Reaction abilities for casters are few and not great. So don't worry about it.
Charisma Casters can get access to the excellent One For All (both a third action and a reaction) to consistently (at higher levels) give their martials +3-4 to hit. They can also get Redeemer or Liberator reactions if they want to be a bit more risque for a bit higher reward.
Intelligence casters? They’re just SoL as far as reactions go I’m afraid. Maybe Nimble Dodge, reactive shield or shield block? Clever Counterspell is somewhat decent too.
4. A Reaction Ability for a Martial. It's always good to have some kind of reaction ability as a martial, usually AoO. Something to give you an extra off-round attack with no MAP.
Reaction abilities for casters are few and not great. So don't worry about it.
Charisma Casters can get access to the excellent One For All (both a third action and a reaction) to consistently (at higher levels) give their martials +3-4 to hit. They can also get Redeemer or Liberator reactions if they want to be a bit more risque for a bit higher reward.
Intelligence casters? They’re just SoL as far as reactions go I’m afraid. Maybe Nimble Dodge, reactive shield or shield block? Clever Counterspell is somewhat decent too.
That is a rule loophole I doubt they accounted for when creating that feat. I wonder if it will get nerfed at some point.
Any paladin or charisma class including a bard would be wise to pick that up. It is a pretty easy critical success and a guaranteed success at higher level.
4. A Reaction Ability for a Martial. It's always good to have some kind of reaction ability as a martial, usually AoO. Something to give you an extra off-round attack with no MAP.
Reaction abilities for casters are few and not great. So don't worry about it.
Charisma Casters can get access to the excellent One For All (both a third action and a reaction) to consistently (at higher levels) give their martials +3-4 to hit. They can also get Redeemer or Liberator reactions if they want to be a bit more risque for a bit higher reward.
Intelligence casters? They’re just SoL as far as reactions go I’m afraid. Maybe Nimble Dodge, reactive shield or shield block? Clever Counterspell is somewhat decent too.
That is a rule loophole I doubt they accounted for when creating that feat. I wonder if it will get nerfed at some point.
Any paladin or charisma class including a bard would be wise to pick that up. It is a pretty easy critical success and a guaranteed success at higher level.
It takes 2 feats, so there is a significant cost.
The nerf is already sitting there if you feel that way about it. The Aid action is given with a static DC 20, but with an explicit GM discretion rider sitting on it.
Personally I think there are a lot of other options for a charisma caster to use an action plus a reaction. But at mid to high level a +3/+4 circumstance bonus to hit is beyond good.
I'll list what I think is the most optimal four class party combination.
Bard: Obviously provides bard buffs and Synesthesia from the Occult spell list. In general you want the muse that gives you Inspire Heroics for the biggest numerical shift possible in the game.
Champion: Best battlefield control martial with highest potential AC who can reduce damage substantially.
Cleric: Best healer in the game. Though I think you could probably substitute a druid in place of a cleric and have a better combination of healing, blasting, and utility.
Fighter Damage Dealer: A 2-handed weapon fighter damage dealer who can slam down on things with the best chance to hit and crit.
That would be one of the most optimized and dangerous parties you could build in PF2.
The Cleric with a Champion is a bit over the top. I'd add in a melee Rogue instead as an extra striker. It will synergise better from the middle game. They have the skill space for a medicine skill too.
4. A Reaction Ability for a Martial. It's always good to have some kind of reaction ability as a martial, usually AoO. Something to give you an extra off-round attack with no MAP.Reaction abilities for casters are few and not great. So don't worry about it.
Reaction abilites are available for a casters, as discussed. The other Champion reactions (Glimpse of Redemption and Liberating Step) work fine for a caster in a multiclass. But even if you aren't interested in that there are a lot of occasional reactions available in feats/ancestries that you can get.
Plus then there are spells. In important situations bring them out:
Blood Vendetta
Anathematic Reprisal
Rebounding Barrier
Shadow Siphon
Foresight
Breath of Life
Drop Dead
Blinding Fury
Scintillating Safeguard
Arcane Countermeasures
6. AoE Spells are king in this game for casters. The more targets making saves with a possible critical failure for the highest possible damage makes a big difference for casters. You won't start feeling powerful as a caster doing damage until you can cast more powerful AoE spells.
I disagree. AoE can be powerful at higher level but it is only one tactic of many. A lot of circumstances it just does't work. Buffing is stronger. Illusions and Walls can work. Debuffing can work. Summoning is mostly just utility. Optimisation is not all just damage numbers.
I disagree. AoE can be powerful at higher level but it is only one tactic of many. A lot of circumstances it just does't work. Buffing is stronger. Illusions and Walls can work. Debuffing can work. Summoning is mostly just utility. Optimisation is not all just damage numbers.
While it's true that you can play in different way, it's real the fact that the sooner you deal damage on enemies ( or the sooner an enemy dies, and here I am talking about focus target ) the best for your party. Like in any hack and slash, killing your enemies asap is the best way to survive ( given limited heals and supportive stuff ).
Yes but often by the time you have finished controlling and buffing the situation is under control. Area attacks can be hard to land once the engagement has begun anyway. A caster often does not need to do much damage beyond a few cantrips at the end...
As for the caster reactions... apart from shadow siphon I wouldn't use any of those.- Breath of life, for example, requires a target to die. So dying condition 4+, which seems to be hard to achieve.
- Drop Dead is cool, but when you realize you wasted a lvl 5 spell ( which could have been a 12d6 cone of cold ) you might consider something else.
- Scintillating Safeguard seems a scam for a lvl 6 spell ( though I understand it comes as a reaction ).
I was putting them out there as options. Mostly as a response to the casters not having reactions. On a per spell slot basis these are not as strong as regular spells. But that is the point, their are often situation when you are quite happy to burn spell slots. Breath of life can be important if you have against monsters that like to pile on to wounded characters - the majority of GMs don't do this though it is a widespread natural behaviour for many carnivores - yes I would not take it normally.
Correct you don't typically put your highest level slots in these reactions. That would be a special circumstance.
It's very efficient, but requires the character to invest in diplomacy as main skill, not to say that have to expend 2 class feat in the swashbuckler class ( and a third one if you plan to get another defication) might be too limiting in terms of customization ( but would be then efficiency vs roleplay/customization).
Given how spells work, it would definitely shine on a caster, but as a paladin ( though I think you meant "champion", but it's the same) I'd never pick any other reaction but the champion one.
Eventually, quick shield block if I were to use a shield, or the shield cantrip to have some sort of DR ( given by either +1 AC or the reaction itself).
I've been thinking some more on this one.
A DC 20 check is a fairly easy roll for a high level character.
It does require Legendary Diplomacy, but not much investment in Charisma. Almost anyone can pick this up on any class save perhaps a barbarian for a 2 feat investment, one of those an Ancestry Feats for a human.
By lvl 15 with a Legendary Proficiency and a 14 charisma with the +4 circumstance human bonus, you roll would be +29. That would mean you only fail to provide the +4 bonus on a 1.
By lvl 15 you are able to provide a +4 bonus to an attack roll consistently from round to round with a single action and a reaction that is better than any spell you can cast save perhaps True Target. The main difference is True Target is a lvl 7 spell that is limited, whereas Aid is an unlimited resource you can use every round better than any cantrip you can cast.
It's definitely an optimization choice almost every caster should take. Glad Exocist pointed it out. I had not looked closely enough at the Swashbuckler. I now see why people on these forums were talking that feat up. It looks like one of those optimization feats that slipped through the cracks. Better than any 1 action resource out there with unlimited use providing an amazing bonus to hit. Wish the swashbuckler in my party had taken this to use on my giant instinct barbarian. Would have been glorious.
4. A Reaction Ability for a Martial. It's always good to have some kind of reaction ability as a martial, usually AoO. Something to give you an extra off-round attack with no MAP.Reaction abilities for casters are few and not great. So don't worry about it.
Reaction abilites are available for a casters, as discussed. The other Champion reactions (Glimpse of Redemption and Liberating Step) work fine for a caster in a multiclass. But even if you aren't interested in that there are a lot of occasional reactions available in feats/ancestries that you can get.
Plus then there are spells. In important situations bring them out:
Blood Vendetta
Anathematic Reprisal
Rebounding Barrier
Shadow Siphon
Foresight
Breath of Life
Drop Dead
Blinding Fury
Scintillating Safeguard
Arcane Countermeasures
6. AoE Spells are king in this game for casters. The more targets making saves with a possible critical failure for the highest possible damage makes a big difference for casters. You won't start feeling powerful as a caster doing damage until you can cast more powerful AoE spells.
I disagree. AoE can be powerful at higher level but it is only one tactic of many. A lot of circumstances it just does't work. Buffing is stronger. Illusions and Walls can work. Debuffing can work. Summoning is mostly just utility. Optimisation is not all just damage numbers.
For a caster wanting to do a lot of damage AoE is king. It is when you do AoE damage that you will feel powerful as a caster doing damage. It is extremely rare for a caster to feel powerful doing single target damage.
That's why I wrote the rest. AoE is king for casters wanting to do damage. That would have been a better way to write it.
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I've been thinking some more on this one.
A DC 20 check is a fairly easy roll for a high level character.
It does require Legendary Diplomacy, but not much investment in Charisma. Almost anyone can pick this up on any class save perhaps a barbarian for a 2 feat investment, one of those an Ancestry Feats for a human.
By lvl 15 with a Legendary Proficiency and a 14 charisma with the +4 circumstance human bonus, you roll would be +29. That would mean you only fail to provide the +4 bonus on a 1.
By lvl 15 you are able to provide a +4 bonus to an attack roll consistently from round to round with a single action and a reaction that is better than any spell you can cast save perhaps True Target. The main difference is True Target is a lvl 7 spell that is limited, whereas Aid is an unlimited resource you can use every round better than any cantrip you can cast.
It's definitely an optimization choice almost every caster should take. Glad Exocist pointed it out. I had not looked closely enough at the Swashbuckler. I now see why people on these forums were talking that feat up. It looks like one of those optimization feats that slipped through the cracks. Better than any 1 action resource out there with unlimited use providing an amazing bonus to hit. Wish the swashbuckler in my party...
It takes a while to get going. If you go Halfling or Human, you can consistently get it to give the +3 around level 9-10 (+9-10 level, +6 master, +2 item, +4-5 cha, +2-4 ancestry feat = +23-27). Once you hit level 14, if you’re not a swashbuckler trying to get panache off it, you can just Assurance Diplomacy and you get a 30 guaranteed.
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My observation regarding optimization thus far is that while the gap between optimized and non-optimized builds is smaller in PF2E compared to 5E, there is still a gap.
Obviously. It's impossible to have every option as good as the others.
Thus, I'm wondering what are some of the build options that are considered must-haves for any optimized table.
But I don't think there are any such build options.
As you can read here, the build is 10% of the work.In PF2, you can hardly have a useless character and you will hardly have a better character than your neighbour. It's during combat, through the synergies you create with the other characters, through your tactical acumen, that you will prevail.
Before combat, outside some obvious errors, there's not much you can do. And that's the difference between PF2 and the PF1/5E. High optimization tables are just tables were people are very good tacticians.
My observation regarding optimization thus far is that while the gap between optimized and non-optimized builds is smaller in PF2E compared to 5E, there is still a gap.Obviously. It's impossible to have every option as good as the others.
Thus, I'm wondering what are some of the build options that are considered must-haves for any optimized table.But I don't think there are any such build options.
As you can read here, the build is 10% of the work.
In PF2, you can hardly have a useless character and you will hardly have a better character than your neighbour. It's during combat, through the synergies you create with the other characters, through your tactical acumen, that you will prevail.
Before combat, outside some obvious errors, there's not much you can do. And that's the difference between PF2 and the PF1/5E. High optimization tables are just tables were people are very good tacticians.
I still think the wizard is a particularly bad class for a lot of levels. My table has had a tremendously bad experience trying to make the wizard on par with any other class.
Eventually it's spells are good like any caster, but the wizard's build options are pretty terrible. If my table were voting, the wizard would be voted the worst build options in the game no contest.
Thesis not impactful.
Feats not impactful and boring.
The only ability they have that has been found useful is the arcane bond.
I'd avoid the class if you're seeking to optimize.
My observation regarding optimization thus far is that while the gap between optimized and non-optimized builds is smaller in PF2E compared to 5E, there is still a gap.Obviously. It's impossible to have every option as good as the others.
Thus, I'm wondering what are some of the build options that are considered must-haves for any optimized table.But I don't think there are any such build options.
As you can read here, the build is 10% of the work.
In PF2, you can hardly have a useless character and you will hardly have a better character than your neighbour. It's during combat, through the synergies you create with the other characters, through your tactical acumen, that you will prevail.
Before combat, outside some obvious errors, there's not much you can do. And that's the difference between PF2 and the PF1/5E. High optimization tables are just tables were people are very good tacticians.I still think the wizard is a particularly bad class for a lot of levels. My table has had a tremendously bad experience trying to make the wizard on par with any other class.
Eventually it's spells are good like any caster, but the wizard's build options are pretty terrible. If my table were voting, the wizard would be voted the worst build options in the game no contest.
Thesis not impactful.
Feats not impactful and boring.
The only ability they have that has been found useful is the arcane bond.
I'd avoid the class if you're seeking to optimize.
In your opinion, what is the most optimal arcane caster since the Wizard can be lackluster. Druid and Bard both seem really strong, and Cleric similarly if you need a healer, but the arcane casters seem a bit more meh in comparison.
In your opinion, what is the most optimal arcane caster since the Wizard can be lackluster. Druid and Bard both seem really strong, and Cleric similarly if you need a healer, but the arcane casters seem a bit more meh in comparison.
I guess it depends on what you are optimizing for.
For killing enemies and general dungeon crawling: probably Sorcerer. Draconic bloodline is nice, but don't get fooled - Dragon Claws does not make you a melee brawler character. Genie has a decent focus point defensive spell in Genie's Veil. Imperial gives a lot of utility spells that most Arcane casters want anyway, and Ancestral Memories can give temporary training in skills that come up during exploration.
The problem with Arcane Sorcerer is the spontaneous spellcasting. There are a lot of powerful, but niche use spells in the Arcane list that you probably won't put in Repertoire because they don't look useful enough in general. Maybe shore that up with scrolls. Witch and Wizard can learn the spells anyway and prepare them when the plot indicates that it may be useful. Spell Substitution Wizard can even do it during a 10 minute rest.
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I still think the wizard is a particularly bad class for a lot of levels. My table has had a tremendously bad experience trying to make the wizard on par with any other class.
Eventually it's spells are good like any caster, but the wizard's build options are pretty terrible. If my table were voting, the wizard would be voted the worst build options in the game no contest.
Thesis not impactful.
Feats not impactful and boring.
The only ability they have that has been found useful is the arcane bond.
I'd avoid the class if you're seeking to optimize.
Teehee!
While I would disagree with this sentiment, I can see where it is rooted. I, personally, have had great success with a wizard, whom just turned level 9. That said, there is something to be said for the effect the rest of my team has on my perception of the efficacy of this character.
Building and playing a good wizard is not for those who prefer simplicity. I am unsure if this is the thread for the finer points of wizards however.
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Yeah, I feel like my Wizard is doing well- he's dual classed investigator, but he doesn't actually get to use it at all, especially not in combat, so he's all wizard and very potent as spell blending evocation school Wizard, I can use my spell slots more freely than other characters, I don't think I've used a damage cantrip once this entire campaign since my slots are so plentiful.
I do a lot of upcasted Magic Missile and Fireball, but I also throw Lightning Bolt/Sudden Bolt a lot, and various other neat utility in the campaign, my dream message is our go-to long distance communication strat, and its been useful to have so many slots now that I have Telepathic Bond, which effectively means I'm adventuring from the get go with one fewer since telepathy is super useful for the whole party.
One major optimization strategy we're using is my upcasted Magic Missiles as insurance against bad luck-- every round functionally counts down +3/+4 level monster's health by a relatively consistent amount, independent of the rest of the parties hits and misses, its obviously pretty specific but no class does that as well as the Wizard.
I start with my 3 or 4 top level slots, then I spell blend to get up to 4-5, then restoring a slot with Arcane Bond for a functional 5-6 slots in that top level position-- right now we're level 10, so I can afford to blend for an extra fourth and fifth level slot each which comes out to something like 10 rounds of useful damage spells. I tend to put Fireball/Lightning Bolt in my fourth levels and Magic Missile in my fifth levels to 'maximize' the heighten values.
Then I can also make some useful rounds out of lower level buffs and such, things like casting Haste with a Scroll Savant Scroll or regular third level slot, and then Force Bolts are contributing to my action economy some rounds along with 1 action shields, or the AOE things.
Overall, its a lot of output I'm working with, and I'd say my build can perform at that output for something like a 4 'big' encounter adventuring day (encounter = fight, here, if we count other kinds of encounters it goes up, since my first, second, and some third level slots come into play) Idk about other people, but I've always seen that in terms of how people actually play, that's pretty typical or even stretching a little.
Of course if you throw any trivial fights in there, or just a lot of lower level monsters, it goes up by virtue of the lower level slots being useful, I'd say I'm referring to 4 Moderate to Extreme Encounters with that.
I had to deal with having to do more than that? I'd redesign my lower spells to use things like fear and slow that don't get outscaled by enemy HP, and throw those into regular rotation, to eke out at least another 2 big encounters without having to use cantrips.
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In your opinion, what is the most optimal arcane caster since the Wizard can be lackluster. Druid and Bard both seem really strong, and Cleric similarly if you need a healer, but the arcane casters seem a bit more meh in comparison.My observation regarding optimization thus far is that while the gap between optimized and non-optimized builds is smaller in PF2E compared to 5E, there is still a gap.Obviously. It's impossible to have every option as good as the others.
Thus, I'm wondering what are some of the build options that are considered must-haves for any optimized table.But I don't think there are any such build options.
As you can read here, the build is 10% of the work.
In PF2, you can hardly have a useless character and you will hardly have a better character than your neighbour. It's during combat, through the synergies you create with the other characters, through your tactical acumen, that you will prevail.
Before combat, outside some obvious errors, there's not much you can do. And that's the difference between PF2 and the PF1/5E. High optimization tables are just tables were people are very good tacticians.I still think the wizard is a particularly bad class for a lot of levels. My table has had a tremendously bad experience trying to make the wizard on par with any other class.
Eventually it's spells are good like any caster, but the wizard's build options are pretty terrible. If my table were voting, the wizard would be voted the worst build options in the game no contest.
Thesis not impactful.
Feats not impactful and boring.
The only ability they have that has been found useful is the arcane bond.
I'd avoid the class if you're seeking to optimize.
The most optimal damage caster in PF2 is the druid. The druid and bard are on a tier all by themselves as the most powerful casters in the game. I would not worry about Arcane or what not, all the spell lists are relatively equal with some minor differences.
I'll give you a basic idea of the spell lists:
Divine: Buffing ok. Good healing list. Focus on positive and negative energy and alignment damage. Can summon celestials and fiends, but summoning sucks so not really worth it. Least powerful and versatile spell list.
Side Discussion on Summoning: Paizo really did not design summoning well in PF2 and it is mostly a useless bunch of spells not effective most of what you fight due to the level based math the game is designed around. If Paizo ever wants to make summoning cool again, they're going to have to do some work to make that happen. Summoning in 5E was much, much better. Gotta give credit where it's due for 5E keeping summoning relevant and Paizo really needs to admit that summoning in PF2 missed the mark badly and do something to fix it.
Occult: Does Force, Mental, and Negative energy damage. Focuses on illusion and mental effects. Best debuff in the game with Synesthesia is on this list. You get teleport as well.
Arcane: Most versatile damage. Can pretty much do every type of damage except alignment and positive energy. It's a fairly well-rounded spell list. Most spells of any list, though the spells are not more impactful than other lists. On par with Occult and Primal, but different utility focus. You do get Summon Dragon on this list which is thematically cool, but see the post on how much summons suck. So it's like you get to summon a cool looking dragon that is pretty useless in combat against most of what you're fighting that you would need a dragon against.
Primal: Focuses on energy damage. Can do all the types of energy damage. Most summon and shapechange spells. Summons sucks. Shapechanging can be ok at certain levels. Generally shapechange spells are good at the level you get them and maybe the level or two after. The biggest reason I put the Primal list on par with Occult and Arcane (if not better than arcane) is it has the best blast spells with healing and condition removal. The heal spell is very powerful. If you have access to it, you can fill the healer role while also filling a blaster role.
I wouldn't focus too much on the idea of an arcane caster and focus more on what each spell list can do for optimizing with a given class. The Arcane Spell list isn't bad, but what makes it not optimal is the classes with access to it can't optimize around the Arcane Spell list. Whereas a druid has a few optimal builds around the Primal Spell list and a bard is optimal with the Occult Spell list.
In your opinion, what is the most optimal arcane caster since the Wizard can be lackluster. Druid and Bard both seem really strong, and Cleric similarly if you need a healer, but the arcane casters seem a bit more meh in comparison.IMO it's a toss between wizard who can get spell penetration vs sorcerer who can get crossblooded -> synesthesia. If there's already another caster covering synesthesia or charisma, I'd lean towards wizard.
How do you get Synesthesia cross-blooded? You only get to pick from the other bloodlines. Which one has [i]synesthesia[i] again?
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How do you get Synesthesia cross-blooded? You only get to pick from the other bloodlines. Which one has [i]synesthesia[i] again?In your opinion, what is the most optimal arcane caster since the Wizard can be lackluster. Druid and Bard both seem really strong, and Cleric similarly if you need a healer, but the arcane casters seem a bit more meh in comparison.IMO it's a toss between wizard who can get spell penetration vs sorcerer who can get crossblooded -> synesthesia. If there's already another caster covering synesthesia or charisma, I'd lean towards wizard.
It’s any spell outside your bloodline, not any spell from another bloodline
Odd interactions in your bloodline provide you with unexpected spells. You can have one spell in your spell repertoire from a tradition other than the one that matches your bloodline. You cast that spell as a spell from your bloodline’s tradition. You can swap which spell you add and from which tradition as you could any other sorcerer spell, but you can’t have more than one spell from another tradition in your spell repertoire at the same time using this feat.[/QUOTE
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How to think about statistics. When you think of stats, always remember that you get +2 (+1 if 18 or higher) in 4 stats per five levels. So don't think just in terms of starting stats when deciding how to build. Always recall it is pretty easy to get an 18 stat plus eventually at least a few stats. If you start with a 14, you can have an 18 by lvl 10 and a 20 as your capstone. If you start with an 18, you will end up with a 22 as your capstone. You can expect to have high stats in at least a few statistics as you level up.
Sometimes you hear on these forums that stats are a limiting factor, but they are not. PF2 has very liberal stat enhancement that will allow you to have a good mix of high stats as you level.
The most valuable statistics are as follows:
1. Your main combat stat
2. Constitution: Hit points, Fort saves.
3. Dexterity: Reflex Saves and AC within the range. Reflex saves are more important than Will saves in PF2 due to the damage reflex damage spells do on a critical fail. Double damage on a critical fail reflex save is not good (underselling).
4. Wisdom: Perception which affects initiative. Will saves. Heal skill. Some will flip flop Wisdom and Dexterity, but I've had a bad time with failed reflex saves. I fear reflex save spells more than I worry about losing initiative or perception. Nothing hits home harder about Reflex saves than critically failing a reflex save against an Adult Magma Dragon breath or a boosted chain lightning.
5. Charisma: A very high value stat depending on your skill choices. Charisma casters have access to the best combat skills with an optimized combat statistic.
6. Strength. Athletics checks and how much you can carry. Melee to hit and a damage if you use a weapon or want to use a weapon. Might have to build up for certain druid builds.
7. Intelligence. Recall knowledge. Crafting. Number of skills and languages. You get so many skills with background, class, and feats, extra skills and languages don't have a lot of value. But some people like it. Intelligence is the lowest value optimization statistic unless it is a primary combat stat. They haven't added enough quality intelligence based skills to make intelligence more valuable. More valuable in a strong role-playing scenario where you might need more languages or Lore Skills.
How do you get Synesthesia cross-blooded? You only get to pick from the other bloodlines. Which one has [i]synesthesia[i] again?In your opinion, what is the most optimal arcane caster since the Wizard can be lackluster. Druid and Bard both seem really strong, and Cleric similarly if you need a healer, but the arcane casters seem a bit more meh in comparison.IMO it's a toss between wizard who can get spell penetration vs sorcerer who can get crossblooded -> synesthesia. If there's already another caster covering synesthesia or charisma, I'd lean towards wizard.It’s any spell outside your bloodline, not any spell from another bloodline
Odd interactions in your bloodline provide you with unexpected spells. You can have one spell in your spell repertoire from a tradition other than the one that matches your bloodline. You cast that spell as a spell from your bloodline’s tradition. You can swap which spell you add and from which tradition as you could any other sorcerer spell, but you can’t have more than one spell from another tradition in your spell repertoire at the same time using this feat.[/QUOTEAh. First sorcerer I've played to higher level and just got the feat. Read that one wrong.
At least so far the sorcerer has been fun to play unlike the wizard. They have some good build options to make a weird character around that is reasonably effective. They are no bard or druid, but not as boring as the wizard either.
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Summoning in 5E was much, much better. Gotta give credit where it's due for 5E keeping summoning relevant
Summoning is certainly stronger and more relevant in 5e but I'm not certain it is better. Conjure Animals did more damage than entire classes and having someone roll 16 d20s for all their wolves (or velociraptors) and damage on top of that (at higher levels this turned into 32 d20s and then 16 saves for the enemy) which made it so disruptive I had to ban summoning at my table.
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Summoning in 5E was much, much better. Gotta give credit where it's due for 5E keeping summoning relevantSummoning is certainly stronger and more relevant in 5e but I'm not certain it is better. Conjure Animals did more damage than entire classes and having someone roll 16 d20s for all their wolves (or velociraptors) and damage on top of that (at higher levels this turned into 32 d20s and then 16 saves for the enemy) which made it so disruptive I had to ban summoning at my table.
Summoning is still quite good in PF2 if you know what summons to look for. It’s a decent control option, with some toolboxing available as well. The average case summon is pretty bad though, monsters that just do damage with or without minor effects on top do not hit often enough or do enough damage at level-4 to justify a top slot.
I do wish summoning was templated. One shouldn’t have to dig through 3 bestaries, 18 AP volumes, 3 modules and however many PFS scenarios to make their spell good (or read a 200 page guide to make the spell good). Summoning should be more accessible than that, and even with all the limitations they’ve put on summoning its still prone to breaking (I’ve found at least 3 so far - Bone Croupier, Empress Bore Worm and a new monster from FotRP that has 7 level 6 harms for an 8th slot). Choosing abilities from the bestiary is just a bad idea.
Thanks for all the insight all! I’ve been eying making an evocation spell blender wizard or illusionist wizard.
In regards to summons, I really like the recent 5e summoning spells that give you a template creature. Conjure woodland creatures and the older spells that let you summon multiple creatures can go die I may fire. That spell slowes down combat so much.
Summoning in 5E was much, much better. Gotta give credit where it's due for 5E keeping summoning relevantSummoning is certainly stronger and more relevant in 5e but I'm not certain it is better. Conjure Animals did more damage than entire classes and having someone roll 16 d20s for all their wolves (or velociraptors) and damage on top of that (at higher levels this turned into 32 d20s and then 16 saves for the enemy) which made it so disruptive I had to ban summoning at my table.Summoning is still quite good in PF2 if you know what summons to look for. It’s a decent control option, with some toolboxing available as well. The average case summon is pretty bad though, monsters that just do damage with or without minor effects on top do not hit often enough or do enough damage at level-4 to justify a top slot.
I do wish summoning was templated. One shouldn’t have to dig through 3 bestaries, 18 AP volumes, 3 modules and however many PFS scenarios to make their spell good (or read a 200 page guide to make the spell good). Summoning should be more accessible than that, and even with all the limitations they’ve put on summoning its still prone to breaking (I’ve found at least 3 so far - Bone Croupier, Empress Bore Worm and a new monster from FotRP that has 7 level 6 harms for an 8th slot). Choosing abilities from the bestiary is just a bad idea.
I would call it more situationally useful than quite good myself, but opinions differ.
5E summoning is quite good, though as some on here have said can be super annoying.