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Yeah I was just hoping with the extenuating circumstances of the last year it would be nice not to have to wait.
I was a subscriber in the past but cancelled it for pf2 while my group and I see if the game has a long term future for us, if that's the case I'll probably renew it.
I see the support for FLGS but that doesn't help anyone but the store owners.
well, kinda, FLGS is traditionally important for spreading the game and expanding the playerbase so there's absolutely practical reasons not to piss them off, wherever possible Paizo needs to be an option on the shelf next to 5e, so someone thinking about getting into RPGs can be like "ooh whats this?" and potentially choose it instead.
If the store owners are happy with paizo they're a lot more likely to upsell the book to someone looking to get into TTRPGs like "Ok this is DND, the most popular game, but another option is Pathfinder, and the reason you'd go with that is..." than if they feel like that customer is going to start getting their product online to have it earlier. At that point, they may as well focus on expanding the DND market since WOTC does do simultaneous store releases, and if anything, has a program for participating stores to get the book before the internet does.
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Yeah I was just hoping with the extenuating circumstances of the last year it would be nice not to have to wait.
I was a subscriber in the past but cancelled it for pf2 while my group and I see if the game has a long term future for us, if that's the case I'll probably renew it.
I see the support for FLGS but that doesn't help anyone but the store owners.
it helps the community too. Your FLGS is the spot to be for people without a regular safe space to play. YMMV, but I always thought of the FLGS as the spot to let your nerd flag fly without fear of judgment or reprisal. Nerd culture is booming, so acceptance is climbing, but I still think it's important for every area to have that sanctuary. Therefore, you want your FLGS to be healthy by means of early access to releases. A healthy community means more people are enjoying the thing you like... or adjacent things... or magic the gathering.... mostly magic the gathering..... AND 40k! What was I talking about?
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I thought the entire point of being a subscriber was that you always got the product first... if not then whats the point?
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I thought the entire point of being a subscriber was that you always got the product first... if not then whats the point?
Nope, the official perk is the free pdf for the same amount you would normally pay for just your physical book anyway, and if you sub to enough lines, the Paizo Advantage discount.
People do sub for that reason (its a big part of why I am, although we play online so the pdfs are directly useful to my ability to share materials with my players), but its with the understanding that Paizo isn't promising them that, just that it's likely.
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Subscribers don't always actually get the pdf early, some lucky few do. The further you are from the Paizo office, the later they tend to ship your order, so if you're outside the US don't get too excited.
The date you receive your order may vary with distance from Paizo's warehouse, but I have not noticed any particular pattern as to when things ship. I live on the east coast of the US, and I seem to alternate between being first and last to have my order ship.
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I must admit that I held off on subscribing to Paizo products while I had a FLGS. Now that the nearest game store is over 20 miles away on the other side of a toll bridge, I may as well deal with Paizo directly.
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I thought the entire point of being a subscriber was that you always got the product first... if not then whats the point?Nope, the official perk is the free pdf for the same amount you would normally pay for just your physical book anyway, and if you sub to enough lines, the Paizo Advantage discount.
People do sub for that reason (its a big part of why I am, although we play online so the pdfs are directly useful to my ability to share materials with my players), but its with the understanding that Paizo isn't promising them that, just that it's likely.
You also get the Pathfinder Society scenarios for free. I think that kicks in at 4 subs but I don't remember.
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I live in Arizona and have had a subscription for many years and I remember quite vividly folks from overseas stating where they were from (Germany, England, etc.) and sharing details on the forums about the new PDF they had and that I did not. I also remember posts from Paizo folks stating they rotated the order of shipments from month to month. It is not always local or domestic sub orders that get sent out first; nor is it even most of the time. Most of the time, I don't even get my PDF until a day or three before the street date. I don't believe that Paizo is sending their orders out in any set preference other than doing whatever it takes to be efficient and fair to their customers.
Subscribers don't always actually get the pdf early, some lucky few do. The further you are from the Paizo office, the later they tend to ship your order, so if you're outside the US don't get too excited.
Aren't they in Redmond, Washington?
I'm on the opposite coast in Florida and I get them early all the time.
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This comes up every new big release, and, honestly, Paizo does need to change things.
Their business and shipping model has been largely unchanged for over a decade now, and it's showing its age. Consumer expectations have changed and rightly so. With everything becoming more digital, and play through VTT's increasing (especially since covid), having your sales model pegged to shipping dates feels antiquated.
Moreover, though, the only people who actually get short-changed by this are generally Paizo's biggest fans and direct consumers, especially those outsides of the US.
Further, there really does need to be a set "Early Release" for subs. Everyone who has a sub should get access to their pdf copies at the same time. There isn't really a reason for two customers paying the same money for the same products to potentially have multi-week differences in access to digital products.
Subs are really important for Paizo and should be considered more. However, as an international sub, I got to say I haven't always been best served by the shipping model.
The last decade of gaming sales has shown that early-access is a sales driver, Paizo should take notice.
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There isn't really a reason for two customers paying the same money for the same products to potentially have multi-week differences in access to digital products.
There’s not.
You get access to the digital content when they ship your subscription aka when they actually charge for the product. You pay, you get the PDF.
The last decade of gaming sales has shown that early-access is a sales driver, Paizo should take notice.
They have. They also know this would hurt and anger FLGSs. Despite what people may think Paizo does not want those to go out of business or stop carrying their products.
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There isn't really a reason for two customers paying the same money for the same products to potentially have multi-week differences in access to digital products.There’s not.
You get access to the digital content when they ship your subscription aka when they actually charge for the product. You pay, you get the PDF.
Maybe it's just me, but It doesn't feel right.
Something like "The customer paid for either PDF and Physical Copy. We send all customers the PDF asap as it is released, and the Physical Copy as soon as we can ( knowing that somebody would indeed receive the physical copy sooner and someone else later, but this wouldn't be their fault )".
I mean, I see no reason not to instantly send the PDF copy to all customers with one click.
My guess is that you'd have a lot of people signing up for subscriptions then canceling the order after they got the pdf but before the physical copy was shipped. It's only a guess, though.
As someone who only wants the pdf's (my house is already too full of paper books) I'm quite happy with the current system. I'd be willing to pay more for early access, but I could see how that might cut into the physical sales which are so important for the stores.
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Kind of wish there was a guild of game stores to collectively communicate with game developers. Sucks that Paizo can't innovate without fear of stepping on toes.
It'd be pretty cool if there were more synergies, like proof of purchase of a physical book at the game store unlocking the pdf. Or pdfs sold online coming with a coupon or ad for game stores.
I would love if both Paizo and game stores could transition into a less book dependent future.
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There isn't really a reason for two customers paying the same money for the same products to potentially have multi-week differences in access to digital products.There’s not.
You get access to the digital content when they ship your subscription aka when they actually charge for the product. You pay, you get the PDF.
Maybe it's just me, but It doesn't feel right.
Something like "The customer paid for either PDF and Physical Copy. We send all customers the PDF asap as it is released, and the Physical Copy as soon as we can ( knowing that somebody would indeed receive the physical copy sooner and someone else later, but this wouldn't be their fault )".
I mean, I see no reason not to instantly send the PDF copy to all customers with one click.
With or without subs you get the PDF when you pay for it.
Sub or preorder or after street date you get the physical book after it’s shipped to you because teleportation isn’t a thing.
The sub has nothing to do with it.
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There isn't really a reason for two customers paying the same money for the same products to potentially have multi-week differences in access to digital products.There’s not.
You get access to the digital content when they ship your subscription aka when they actually charge for the product. You pay, you get the PDF.
Maybe it's just me, but It doesn't feel right.
Something like "The customer paid for either PDF and Physical Copy. We send all customers the PDF asap as it is released, and the Physical Copy as soon as we can ( knowing that somebody would indeed receive the physical copy sooner and someone else later, but this wouldn't be their fault )".
I mean, I see no reason not to instantly send the PDF copy to all customers with one click.
My guess is that you'd have a lot of people signing up for subscriptions then canceling the order after they got the pdf but before the physical copy was shipped. It's only a guess, though.
As someone who only wants the pdf's (my house is already too full of paper books) I'm quite happy with the current system. I'd be willing to pay more for early access, but I could see how that might cut into the physical sales which are so important for the stores.
A digital only subscription with a higher price but with Early Access as the reward is the solution here.
Physical book prices (plus the attached shipping) are increasingly a luxury spend. A luxury purchase I’m personally happy to make, but not everyone who wants to support paizo can. Further it’s not like Paizo is restricting access the game behind physical books as it is, they give the crunch away from for free already.
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There isn't really a reason for two customers paying the same money for the same products to potentially have multi-week differences in access to digital products.There’s not.
You get access to the digital content when they ship your subscription aka when they actually charge for the product. You pay, you get the PDF.
Maybe it's just me, but It doesn't feel right.
Something like "The customer paid for either PDF and Physical Copy. We send all customers the PDF asap as it is released, and the Physical Copy as soon as we can ( knowing that somebody would indeed receive the physical copy sooner and someone else later, but this wouldn't be their fault )".
I mean, I see no reason not to instantly send the PDF copy to all customers with one click.
With or without subs you get the PDF when you pay for it.
Sub or preorder or after street date you get the physical book after it’s shipped to you because teleportation isn’t a thing.
The sub has nothing to do with it.
You get that this is a dumb take right?
I’ve already committed to paying for it and Paizo have the ability to charge for the purchase. Them delaying taking payment from certain customers over others is totally out of my hands as a consumer. I can’t force them to take my money faster.
Besides, it’s not like pre-order purchasing is rare or unheard of.
Lots of places take payment before release or shipping of goods if you’ve received a service as part of the sale - look at literal any preorder videogame with early access.
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A digital only subscription with a higher price but with Early Access as the reward is the solution here.
That’s an assumption you are having.
I don’t see paying more for early access instead of waiting an extra week being that appealing, and a digital only subscription would definitely upset the brick and mortar stores.
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Reading this thread it felt like not all customers received the PDF version at the same time.
They definitely don't. For the APG there were nearly 3 weeks of a difference in some cases between US and International subs.
They did however all get it the exact moment they purchased it.
No, that's not what happens.
You purchase the items when you make your order, when Paizo takes payment is up to them. You get access when Paizo decides to take payment not when you purchase.
As a consumer, I decide if/when I purchase. I do not decide when Paizo takes payment for said purchase.
That’s an assumption you are having.
I don’t see paying more for early access instead of waiting an extra week being that appealing, and a digital only subscription would definitely upset the brick and mortar stores.
What makes a digital-only sub more disastrous to physical stores than the current system? Either way, I have my products and I never went near them. All a digital model does is open up potential new customers to Paizo that can't afford/just don't want the physical books.
Also, if you don't think early access is an incentive, you have literally thousands of games arguing against you. In addition to things like Kickstarter and its kin, who often offer early access as a distinct reward tier. People like getting access to things as soon as possible and are generally willing to pay for more it. This isn't my argument, this is out there as a thing in the world and has been decades.
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No, you haven't actually purchased something until you've paid for it.
It's a standard purchase order, dude.
I've committed and granted authorization as the buyer to the supplier. At the time I made the order the price, quality level, delivery date, and certain other terms specified in the agreement have been locked in and are otherwise legally binding unless either party exercises whatever cancellation clauses may be in place.
The exchanging of money doesn't actually effect the terms of the purchase order except in so far as the terms of the order state.
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No, that's not what happens.That is precisely what happens.
You purchase the items when you make your order, when Paizo takes payment is up to them. You get access when Paizo decides to take payment not when you purchase.
You're confusing authorization for actual purchase (and I was using the term “purchase” to mean when you gave them money), when you give them money you get your PDF.
What makes a digital-only sub more disastrous to physical stores than the current system?It leaves picking up the physical copy from your FLGS as a viable alternative. The perk of having a subscription is getting the PDF for free, not getting it early and it has never been advertised as such.
Also, if you don't think early access is an incentive, you have literally thousands of games arguing against you
Those thousands of games don’t charge more for preordering just for the same of preordering, so put those goalposts back.
Kickstarters usually are a cheaper way to preorder the game or otherwise give additional incentives for preordering (preorder bonus, collector’s editions, etc), none I know of charge more for preordering just for the sake of the preorder.
And since I missed this originally
Lots of places take payment before release or shipping of goods if you’ve received a service as part of the sale - look at literal any preorder videogame with early access.
Preordering a video game and a monthly subscription model for ttrpg supplements are two different things. Also I can’t really think of many video games that you access to the full and final game before streetdate.
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No, you haven't actually purchased something until you've paid for it.It's a standard purchase order, dude.
I've committed and granted authorization as the buyer to the supplier. At the time I made the order the price, quality level, delivery date, and certain other terms specified in the agreement have been locked in and are otherwise legally binding unless either party exercises whatever cancellation clauses may be in place.
The exchanging of money doesn't actually effect the terms of the purchase order except in so far as the terms of the order state.
Except it does.
You haven’t bought anything yet. An authorization is not a purchase.
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I thought that some people got the book with the ton of new messages, but it is just a sidetracked conversation, what a disappointment.
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No, you haven't actually purchased something until you've paid for it.It's a standard purchase order, dude.
I've committed and granted authorization as the buyer to the supplier. At the time I made the order the price, quality level, delivery date, and certain other terms specified in the agreement have been locked in and are otherwise legally binding unless either party exercises whatever cancellation clauses may be in place.
The exchanging of money doesn't actually effect the terms of the purchase order except in so far as the terms of the order state.
Except it does.
You haven’t bought anything yet. An authorization is not a purchase.
I'm sorry, but you are just pedantic for the sake of it now.
As a consumer, I have discharged all of my duties in the sale by completing the purchase order and granting authorization.
When Paizo discharge their duties is outside of my hands at this point. But ultimately that doesn't matter except in so far as they discharge those duties within the terms agreed.
None of this "you haven't bought anything yet" is true in the way you are saying it. In that there exist consequences if either party alters from the agreement in certain ways. I haven't just said "Aye, put me down for one of those mate" - the aspects of the sale have already been agreed upon and locked in.
Trying to drive a wedge between this and when money changes hands is not a legally supported stance to take on this.
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But the purchase is not complete until they take payment.
The transaction isn't complete until all parties have discharged their agreed parts of the sale.
It doesn't matter if Paizo has my money or not, if there are still standing obligations of their end (say, shipping the book), then we aren't done.
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And you’re wrong, this isn’t pedantism when you’re blatantly wrong and these are two different things. You can still can can change/cancel your order when it’s pending/only authorized, because there hasn’t been a purchase yet, Paizo has not taken your money yet.
Money taken. Money not taken. Not pedantic to point out that these are two completely different things.
When you actually pay for it and get the confirmation email there is this line “This order has been processed and finalized for shipment. It can no longer be altered.”
That is not in the authorization email.
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I don’t think a digital subscription makes much sense. If there wasn’t a subscription, a customer would have to come to the site to make their purchase and download. With a subscription, they'd still have to come to the website to download. So it’s saving them what 2 minutes? Probably less? I could be wrong but I also don’t think there’s a vast group of people willing to pay higher than the average price to get early access to a PDF. TBH I don’t know why anyone cares that someone else got the PDF a week earlier than another person. It’s a book, not something essential.
If there are that many hurt feelings I think it would make more sense to switch it so everyone gets the PDF on the day the book releases, but then people would complain that someone received the physical book a day early because of shipping. Paizo has also mentioned something like the system being set up to ‘ship’ the PDF when they charge you and authorize the book to ship so that isn’t currently a possibility.
Separately, I have never received an item prior to paying for it so I’m not sure why it would be any different here.
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And you’re wrong, this isn’t pedantism when you’re blatantly wrong and these are two different things. You can still can can change/cancel your order when it’s pending/only authorized, because there hasn’t been a purchase yet, Paizo has not taken your money yet.
Money taken. Money not taken. Not pedantic to point out that these are two completely different things.
When you actually pay for it and get the confirmation email there is this line “This order has been processed and finalized for shipment. It can no longer be altered.”
That is not in the authorization email.
OMG. You are just playing word games here.
Of course, you can change certain things before the transaction is complete! There are also a ton of things you can't. I can't opt to lower what I'm going to pay, just like Paizo can't opt to raise the price.
You're conflating things that aren't important.
Yes, some PO's are discharged by completing payment. Others are not. It doesn't matter to what we were talking about!
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Subscribers get their PDFs as soon as their purchase is finalized, just like everyone else.
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Getting back to Secrets of Magic hype...
I believe it's been confirmed that magus won't have a 1st level feat by default. Does that mean than unarmed-strike magi will need to either be human or wait until 2nd level?
Do we have a full list of the class path options?
It may be that unarmed is built right in.
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Getting back to Secrets of Magic hype...
I believe it's been confirmed that magus won't have a 1st level feat by default. Does that mean than unarmed-strike magi will need to either be human or wait until 2nd level?
It does not get a first lvl feat, but was said that Magus spellstrike and Arcane Cascade works with unarmed by default without the need of a feat.
Getting back to Secrets of Magic hype...
I believe it's been confirmed that magus won't have a 1st level feat by default. Does that mean than unarmed-strike magi will need to either be human or wait until 2nd level?
Do we have a full list of the class path options?
It may be that unarmed is built right in.
Laughing Shadow - Free Hand one.
Sparkling Targe - Shield one.Inexorable Iron - Two handed one.
Starlit Span - Ranged one.
Twisting Tree - Staff one.
So unarmed probably works better with Laughing Shadow or Sparkling Targe.
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Getting back to Secrets of Magic hype...
I believe it's been confirmed that magus won't have a 1st level feat by default. Does that mean than unarmed-strike magi will need to either be human or wait until 2nd level?
It does not get a first lvl feat, but was said that Magus spellstrike and Arcane Cascade works with unarmed by default without the need of a feat.
Getting back to Secrets of Magic hype...
I believe it's been confirmed that magus won't have a 1st level feat by default. Does that mean than unarmed-strike magi will need to either be human or wait until 2nd level?
Do we have a full list of the class path options?
It may be that unarmed is built right in.
Laughing Shadow - Free Hand one.
Sparkling Targe - Shield one.
Inexorable Iron - Two handed one.
Starlit Span - Ranged one.
Twisting Tree - Staff one.So unarmed probably works better with Laughing Shadow or Sparkling Targe.
I want to see a Star Trek punch with Inexorable Iron!
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I want to see a Star Trek punch with Inexorable Iron!
What is a "Star Trek" punch? Is that like the Vulcan Nerve Pinch or something or was that statement an instance of auto-correct gone wild?
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What is a "Star Trek" punch? Is that like the Vulcan Nerve Pinch or something or was that statement an instance of auto-correct gone wild?...
I want to see a Star Trek punch with Inexorable Iron!
It's the stupid two handed punch that is laughably bad and always has been, but sticks around because it's lovably hokey.
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Sorry, I'm not looking to get into it but I missed the shipping conversation and I'll say this, since I know Paizo got a new ecommerce person and that these threads get read:
As a subscriber I would be perfectly OK with being charged the day shipping starts and my order being locked in at that point (meaning I'd have had to change it prior if I was going to) if it meant everyone whose order went through got their pdf sent out on the first day of shipping. I don't see a huge difference in setting an explicit last day for customers to alter their orders or subscriptions for a given month with further changes becoming possible for next month's orders. That would also save the warehouse team some grief I imagine, and make the new 'subscriber day' more of an event promoting the book as we're suddenly all talking about it.
So e.g. if the book is 50$ I'd be charged 50$ the day shipping starts, immediately get my pdf, and then my physical book goes out whenever it would have originally gone out, with refunds / cancellation becoming impossible on that date to reflect the fact that I've already received 'part' of the product.