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Cloudkill deals "damage to each breathing creature that starts its turn in the spell's area."
Holding your breath is written in context of aquatic combat and it doesn't require an action. Should you be able to just hold your breath to avoid Cloudkill damage for free?
I know Cloudkill isn't an alchemical poison and doesn't have the Inhaled trait, but there's an interesting interaction under method of exposure. The Inhaled trait has a line that allows any creature entering a poison cloud to "use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round."
Maybe Cloudkill just means it deals damage to creatures that need to breathe? Not necessarily requiring it to be breathing?
I don't really know since I've never looked into the spell this much before. I'm considering it for a character build for the first time. Thanks in advance!
Cloudkill deals "damage to each breathing creature that starts its turn in the spell's area."
Holding your breath is written in context of aquatic combat and it doesn't require an action. Should you be able to just hold your breath to avoid Cloudkill damage for free?
I know Cloudkill isn't an alchemical poison and doesn't have the Inhaled trait, but there's an interesting interaction under method of exposure. The Inhaled trait has a line that allows any creature entering a poison cloud to "use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round."
If I was GM, I would allow the same bonus to cloudkill as is allowed for inhaled poisons. However, that is technically a houserule since cloudkill is a spell, not an inhaled poison and the rule for holding breath only applies to inhaled poisons. So YGMMV.
Yeah, the Inhaled rules do sound more reasonable in context of Cloudkill.
Holding your breath is 5 + con mod rounds of air, no action required. That's long enough to completely avoid Cloudkill's damage for multiple rounds even while inside it. You can also easily reset your air count by striding in and out.
But again, those rules are written with being underwater in mind. The consequences of losing air underwater, unconscious and suffocating, are rather dire compared to just taking damage from Cloudkill.
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It doesn’t say the creatures have to breathe in the poison only that they need to be breathing creatures. That may seem a bit semantic, but I think it matters in this case as reflexively holding one’s breath to avoid the effects of a fifth level spell seems to fall under “too good to be true” category.
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It doesn’t say the creatures have to breathe in the poison only that they need to be breathing creatures. That may seem a bit semantic, but I think it matters in this case as reflexively holding one’s breath to avoid the effects of a fifth level spell seems to fall under “too good to be true” category.
True. At that point, it's just an Obscuring Mist that moves every round for a 5th level spell slot.
It doesn’t say the creatures have to breathe in the poison only that they need to be breathing creatures. That may seem a bit semantic, but I think it matters in this case as reflexively holding one’s breath to avoid the effects of a fifth level spell seems to fall under “too good to be true” category.True. At that point, it's just an Obscuring Mist that moves every round for a 5th level spell slot.
In comparison, how do you handle feats like Breath Control that are not specifically limited to poison? Does it work against "inhaled threats" like Cloudkill or the breath ability of some dragons or not?
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If a PC is simply holding their breath, without the aid of specific spells or powers, a DM could simply give them a circumstance bonus against Cloudkill (say +2 to their save), saying that they partially avoid the effects by not breathing it in. Otherwise, it seems like too simple a counter for a 5th-level spell.
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Honestly, in PF1 my group just decided it was like a cloud of acid, and that breathing wasn't relevant to it dealing damage.
But PF2 doubled down on the breathing part, when they removed the line about holding your breath doesn't help.
Personally, I still prefer the idea that it's some sort of acid/caustic cloud and that inhalation or lack there of isn't a factor.
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It may also materialize poisonous gas inside your lungs. So, you need to be a breathing creature but not to be actually breathing to be affected.
That's the way I understand it.
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Honestly, in PF1 my group just decided it was like a cloud of acid, and that breathing wasn't relevant to it dealing damage.
But PF2 doubled down on the breathing part, when they removed the line about holding your breath doesn't help.
Personally, I still prefer the idea that it's some sort of acid/caustic cloud and that inhalation or lack there of isn't a factor.
The PF1 version of Cloudkill explicitly says, "Holding one's breath doesn't help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell."
In contrast, the PF2 version of Cloudkill has no such line. Instead, it says, "each breathing creature that starts its turn in the spell's area." That suggests that if a creature stops breathing, such as by holding one's breath, then the Cloudkill won't affect them.
In my opinion, no spellcaster would waste a 5th-level spell slot on a spell that could be easily thwarted by holding one's breath. I myself would treat it as an inhaled poison. Perhaps the spell lacks the Inhaled trait because the PF1 version was not inhaled and the PF2 version was not updated correctly.
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I mean, the question seems to come down to what is a "breathing creature". Is breathing a verb, describing what the creature is doing, i.e. actively breathing, or is it an adjective describing the type of creature to be one that breathes?
Without any context on the sentence I'd assume the former, as that's more common in English, however, as a couple people have pointed out, that may fall under the category of too bad to be true for the spell, implying that a "breathing creature" could very-well be a creature that breathes, regardless of whether they're currently breathing. If this is the case perhaps the flavor is as SuperBidi said: it could attack the lungs or have some way of forcing it's way in even if you aren't breathing. It is magic, after all, that's not out of the realm of possibility.
Honestly, in PF1 my group just decided it was like a cloud of acid, and that breathing wasn't relevant to it dealing damage.
But PF2 doubled down on the breathing part, when they removed the line about holding your breath doesn't help.
Personally, I still prefer the idea that it's some sort of acid/caustic cloud and that inhalation or lack there of isn't a factor.
The PF1 version of Cloudkill explicitly says, "Holding one's breath doesn't help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell."
In contrast, the PF2 version of Cloudkill has no such line. Instead, it says, "each breathing creature that starts its turn in the spell's area." That suggests that if a creature stops breathing, such as by holding one's breath, then the Cloudkill won't affect them.
In my opinion, no spellcaster would waste a 5th-level spell slot on a spell that could be easily thwarted by holding one's breath. I myself would treat it as an inhaled poison. Perhaps the spell lacks the Inhaled trait because the PF1 version was not inhaled and the PF2 version was not updated correctly.
Right, that's exactly the problem. If they had left that line in from PF1, it would still be confusing as to why holding your breath doesn't help but at least it would be clear.
Currently it's unclear if holding your breath would help, or why breathing is involved.
Again, I would have preferred that the spell simply be a type of caustic cloud that deals poison damage (instead of acid) to anything not immune to posion.
I feel Paizo simply got it wrong when converting between editions, not that the spell didn't have issues in PF1 or 3.5.
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For myself, I read 'breathing creature' as a creature that is required to breathe to exist: that is different from 'a creatures that is breathing' which would be a creature that is currently breathing. So, for me holding your breath would do nothing. The spell would be cleaner if it either clarified 'each creature that is breathing' or 'each living creature'.
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I wouldn't even give the +2 bonus for holding breath. A +2 bonus versus a spell shouldn't be given out so cheaply.
I'll just say it magically poisons all air in its area, including inside lungs.
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Rereading the Inhaled description again, the bonus for holding your breath on entrance actually gets too messy anyway. Cloudkill forces a saving throw at the start of a creature's turn, not when it enters.
Personally, I'm leaning towards towards breathing as an adjective instead of a verb. The breathing rules didn't really have the spell in mind (or vice versa?) and it's just simpler, fitting Cloudkill's simpler description compared to previous versions. I'll just make sure to save the character for a GM that feels the same lol.
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Rereading the Inhaled description again, the bonus for holding your breath on entrance actually gets too messy anyway. Cloudkill forces a saving throw at the start of a creature's turn, not when it enters.
Personally, I'm leaning towards towards breathing as an adjective instead of a verb. The breathing rules didn't really have the spell in mind (or vice versa?) and it's just simpler, fitting Cloudkill's simpler description compared to previous versions. I'll just make sure to save the character for a GM that feels the same lol.
After casting the spell, yawn in front of the enemies. We all know how infectious seeing someone yawn can be. They will all be taking deep, tired breaths and POW in the lungs come cloudkill.
If the cloud moves on its own, it must be using some amount of force to propel itself forward, so you can say it's using that force to push into your mouth or nose unless you can make yourself air tight. So holding your breath wouldn't work, get a gassmask.
Why is hard to believe that a Poison that interacts with or makes breathing harder or painful (by way of Poison damage) can only be inhaled?
Surely you've seen or heard of Contact Poisons?
I think the hang up is that the spell description calls out breathing creatures.
If the spell description just said living creatures take poison damage it would make much more sense.
Why is hard to believe that a Poison that interacts with or makes breathing harder or painful (by way of Poison damage) can only be inhaled?
Surely you've seen or heard of Contact Poisons?
I find it hard to believe that Cloudkill harms people by impairing their breathing. That would be represented as persistent damage or an affliction. Instead, Cloudkill deals direct poison damage.
The spell description gives few clues as to its means of killing: "You conjure a poisonous fog," and "You deal 6d8 poison damage to each breathing creature that starts its turn in the spell's area."
This leaves two questions: (1) if a creature can temporarily stop breathing, for example, by transforming into an undead form, does it become unaffected by Cloudkill, and (2) does holding one's breath count as stopping breathing?
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Why is hard to believe that a Poison that interacts with or makes breathing harder or painful (by way of Poison damage) can only be inhaled?
Surely you've seen or heard of Contact Poisons?
I find it hard to believe that Cloudkill harms people by impairing their breathing. That would be represented as persistent damage or an affliction. Instead, Cloudkill deals direct poison damage.
The spell description gives few clues as to its means of killing: "You conjure a poisonous fog," and "You deal 6d8 poison damage to each breathing creature that starts its turn in the spell's area."
This leaves two questions: (1) if a creature can temporarily stop breathing, for example, by transforming into an undead form, does it become unaffected by Cloudkill, and (2) does holding one's breath count as stopping breathing?
Considering that you can easily be a Leshy who doesn't need to breathe at all (as in the dictionary sense of breathing) I guess we should consider the "breathing" part as fluff/descriptive text/remnants of the old rule and just go by the poison tag, simply because this eliminates a lot of potential issues.
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Considering that you can easily be a Leshy who doesn't need to breathe at all (as in the dictionary sense of breathing) I guess we should consider the "breathing" part as fluff/descriptive text/remnants of the old rule and just go by the poison tag, simply because this eliminates a lot of potential issues.
Actually, Leshies do breathe. Nowhere does it say they don't, and certain heritages even mention being able to breathe underwater, so it stands to reason that others don't have that ability. Why would something that doesn't breathe have a need to breathe in the water in the first place?
Also, if for some reason an ancestry came out that didn't breathe, then the whole point of that would be to do things like not need to breathe underwater, not be able to inhale poisons, or be affected by spells that specifically mention breathing creatures. I wouldn't want to take that away from them because the spell is worded a little weirdly.
I wouldn't even give the +2 bonus for holding breath. A +2 bonus versus a spell shouldn't be given out so cheaply.
I'll just say it magically poisons all air in its area, including inside lungs.
Well, it also costs an action each round in order to gain that bonus.
So being slowed 1 in return for a +2 bonus to save against the spell.
Where is it spelled out in the rules that holding one's breath is an action?
The real problem is if you allow people to be immune by holding their breath, then the party will use it as an offensive tactic. Its like fireball with the party being immune. Currently as it stands that is too strong to be considered balanced in PF2 at this level.
So if you come up with a reason that it works. Then GMs are going to start banning or houseruling it.
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That just sounds like good planning.The real problem is if you allow people to be immune by holding their breath, then the party will use it as an offensive tactic. Its like fireball with the party being immune. Currently as it stands that is too strong to be considered balanced in PF2 at this level.
So if you come up with a reason that it works. Then GMs are going to start banning or houseruling it.
The GMG has a passage about players coming up with unconventional plans, which basically says that if it's clever and only going to happen once or twice, it's okay to let it happen. But if it's something they'll be doing over and over then it's probably not okay to allow it.
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I always took it for granted that the Cloudkill spell was a direct reference to mustard gas, and therefore while breathing it in sucked, any exposure to mucus membranes would be sufficient to cause harm. In 2e it is less certain that this is the intent but I feel it is a good explanation if the question came up why holding breath would do no more than a bonus on the save, if choosing that route.
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The only element in the spell's description that suggests the option of not breathing is, "You deal 6d8 poison damage to each breathing creature that starts its turn in the spell's area."
It would appear that whether or not you hold your breath, if you are a "breathing creature" you are subject to the spell's effects.
I tend to side on the permissive ruling of allowing a circumstance bonus to PCs holding their breath, but nothing more. A strict RAW interpretation wouldn't even allow that. A "breathing creature" holding its breath is still a breathing creature.
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Where is it spelled out in the rules that holding one's breath is an action?
That is under the Inhaled Poisons rules.
Every creature entering this cloud is exposed to the poison and must attempt a saving throw against it; a creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round.
Technically you couldn't do it on Cloudkill. It just seems that it should work since if you make a cloud of toxic poison manually from an inhaled poison item, the players could hold their breath against it. But for some reason making that cloud of toxic poison from a spell doesn't allow for that.
The real problem is if you allow people to be immune by holding their breath, then the party will use it as an offensive tactic. Its like fireball with the party being immune. Currently as it stands that is too strong to be considered balanced in PF2 at this level.
So if you come up with a reason that it works. Then GMs are going to start banning or houseruling it.
Yeah, being able to hold your breath and therefore be immune to Cloudkill would be way too powerful. Even if you have to spend one action to do it.
It's magic: even if you aren't actively breathing it, the cloud finds its way into your lungs anyway, or it gets in through the pores, or whatever.
And a non-magic poison cloud wouldn't because ... ?
And a non-magic poison cloud wouldn't because ... ?
Magic?
And a non-magic poison cloud wouldn't because ... ?Magic?
Exactly. And if that is the only reason, do you see why I don't see a big problem with ruling that you can get the same benefit against Cloudkill as you do against a cloud of Honeyscent.
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Exactly. And if that is the only reason, do you see why I don't see a big problem with ruling that you can get the same benefit against Cloudkill as you do against a cloud of Honeyscent.And a non-magic poison cloud wouldn't because ... ?Magic?
It all hinges around the Inhaled trait. Without it, couldkill is by definition NOT a "poison is delivered when breathed in" while Honeyscent is one. It's not any more complicated than that. You'll notice that Noxious Vapors and Stinking Cloud also do not require breathing them in or even having the ability to sense smells.
So when I said magic, it's explaining that's a good way to look at spells lack of the Inhaled trait: something about spells bypasses the normal poison transmission methods because... Magic! ;)
Again, I am not trying to argue that allowing the same save against cloudkill as for inhaled poisons is RAW.
At best I would be arguing that it is RAI, but even that may be a bit much. Mostly I am saying that allowing it wouldn't be an over-the-top houserule ruling. YGMMV.
Mostly I am saying that allowing it wouldn't be an over-the-top houserule ruling.
Then I'd mostly agree with you. ;)
I personally wouldn't put much thought into it as I wouldn't particularly care which way it was run as it's very low impact as it affects only 3 spells and the difference isn't that big. It's more of a shrug and more on 'issue'.
Meme time. Let's see if this works. I have never tried creating a meme before. https://imgflip.com/i/58vlxs
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I look at the spell like a modern-day chemical weapon or even bug spray to insects. Even if you stop breathing and do not inhale, which is a trick in itself in combat, the pores of your skin, eyes and other places I may be forgetting are all entry paths into the body before you even consider the magical properties which go beyond the chemical processes.
The rules allow for GMs to make situationally dependent decisions and I like to believe we/they can adjudicate appropriately.
Where is it spelled out in the rules that holding one's breath is an action?
"A creature aware of the poison before entering the cloud can use a single action to hold its breath and gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the saving throw for 1 round." CRB p.550
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Why are you necroing a two year old thread when the question you are replying to was already answered?
Also, the Remaster comes out in like, two weeks. Can we wait until then to resurrect old issues?