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I would say communicating with the other group members up front about what everyone is building for, the game is great because while there's some niche protection, it isn't 'role-protection' but that doesn't mean your party can't have roles like tank, healer, and so forth.
The other most obvious thing is primary stat, since the game's math keeps that one stat you (if you're optimizing) get 18 at level 1 ahead of every other stat, whatever your primary stat is will define what you have the capacity to be the best at, if every non-constitution ability score is covered by the party. So if that's intelligence, congratulations, your role is knowledge checks and maybe crafting, if its charisma, you're a good face, if its dexterity you're the party sneak, and if its wisdom, prepare to search.
This especially applies in exploration mode-- figure out what everyone likes to do while you're exploring, you want someone who can search, detect magic, investigate, and etc.
Next, I'd take a look at what bonuses you can offer, since they don't tend to stack-- avoid having two people who both frequently give circumstance bonuses to attack for instance.
You also want to look at what debuffs you can impose relative to others, if one player flat foots something and the other fears it, those stack.
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You very much can still have the warrior/thief/mage/cleric party! In that case, the default is:
Fighter = Warrior = Frontliner, tough guy who can take damage and deal out damage reliably
Rogue = Thief = Skills person, adept at dealing with traps, locks, social encounters, and can support the Fighter in melee
Wizard = Mage = Arcane spellcaster, with a variety of helpful spells that can be carefully chosen to solve many different problems. Also good at solving magic puzzles.
Cleric = Cleric = Divine spellcaster, good at both healing and buffing, with a bit of extra sturdiness to not get focused down and murder immediately.
But there are many, many, many ways to build a party besides the above. There are as many niches as you can imagine, really. Some might include:
Melee damage dealer
Ranged damage dealer
Skillmonkey
Damage Sponge
Blasting/control/debuffing/buffing/support spellcasters
Magical Healer
Medicine Healer
Party Face
Scout
Alchemical Supplier
Enemy Identifier
Wilderness Guy
Repairman
etc. etc.
Not every party or campaign needs every niche, but if each character has enough unique "things" they do then they're not going to step on each other's toes too much.
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Also keep in mind that Pathfinder 2 is a lot about diversification instead of specialization (which is still possible) and that your initial class, stat and style decisions can have a huge impact on the abilities that your party can muster.
For example when we started our group nobody was able to pull any combat maneuvres using Athletics because nobody had a fighting style that left their hands free, nobody picked up the Intimidation skill in order to be able to scare enemies and we generally failed to consider different but meaningful choices for our 3rd actions.
I would say communicating with the other group members up front about what everyone is building for, the game is great because while there's some niche protection, it isn't 'role-protection' but that doesn't mean your party can't have roles like tank, healer, and so forth.
The other most obvious thing is primary stat, since the game's math keeps that one stat you (if you're optimizing) get 18 at level 1 ahead of every other stat, whatever your primary stat is will define what you have the capacity to be the best at, if every non-constitution ability score is covered by the party. So if that's intelligence, congratulations, your role is knowledge checks and maybe crafting, if its charisma, you're a good face, if its dexterity you're the party sneak, and if its wisdom, prepare to search.
This especially applies in exploration mode-- figure out what everyone likes to do while you're exploring, you want someone who can search, detect magic, investigate, and etc.
Next, I'd take a look at what bonuses you can offer, since they don't tend to stack-- avoid having two people who both frequently give circumstance bonuses to attack for instance.
You also want to look at what debuffs you can impose relative to others, if one player flat foots something and the other fears it, those stack.
We are definitely going to talk about character creation, I just feel like I don't understand enough about pathfinder 2e to have that conversation yet you know?
Star is a really good idea! so like, using a monk as an example: If you had had a strength based gorrila monk grappler something like an archer ranger or a dex based investigator would work? And if you had a dexterity focused crane monk something like a tanky str champion or fighter might work?
Good suggestion for exploration mode! I hadn't looked at that yet, I can imagine having different niches there could be a lot of fun!
Exactly, if your rogue is a strength based ruffian rogue, then a graceful dexterity fighter would be a good fit, its all about coverage and since the game gives you a lot of freedom, there's a lot of possible combinations even if you already know the classes being used.
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So... I'm still relatively new at this, but here's some stuff I've picked up (much of it from others on the board).
- You need a decent amount of in-combat healing. This can be focused on one person or can be spread around a bit. Clerics will give you way more available focused healing than any other class will, but classes liek Bard and Druid are still quite strong - it's just that they can't focus quite as hard in those directions.
- Alchemist, Wizard, and Witch are somewhat trickier to play, especially if you're coming in with assumptions from other systems. You absolutely *can* play any of those classes in a way that makes them competitive with everyone else, but those are somewhat particular playstyles, that a number of people have had difficulty comign to naturally.
- If you want a dedicated tank/defender, Champion is your best bet. It's possible to build a tank-fighter, but you just won't be able to fit as much tank onto a fighter chassis. Fighter is more focused on the dealing damage side of things. Tank monks are a bit wacky, but potentially doable, if you know what you're doing. Don't bother trying to make a serious tank out of anyone else.
- Handing out debuffs is great, but go for ones that stack, rather than ones that conflict, and try to match up debuffs on one character with debuff exploitation on another. For example, if you have a fighter who's good at knockdown and grapple, that's a good solid combo with an intimidation-based rogue. The intimidation will make it harder for the enemy to escape the grapple, the grapple will provide combat advantage to the rogue, and between the two of them, the target is going to be having some difficulty getting stuff done. If you have a lot of casters, go for debuffs that make saves harder... and so forth. The crit system means that one or two points of difference on that d20 matters significantly more in PF2 than most games.
- Handing out buffs is also great. Seriously consider having one or two players pick up the Marshall archetype. (No more than 2.)
- Individual build tweaking in PF2 is fascinating and enjoyable, but it's less important to overall character power than such things are in most games. Instead, intraparty combos and tactical skill in the moment are of increased importance.
- spell choice is kind of finicky. There absolutely are go-to spells that you will want to have for various casters, and if you don't have them, it will make life more difficult for you.
If you just want a starter set of base classes to narrow down your options, something like Bard/Champion/Rogue/Druid might be pretty solid (decent distribution of roles and base stats, plenty of healing available if necessary, and Bards, Champions, and Druids are all generally seen as pretty strong options on their own), but there's a lot of ways to make it work. It's better to look for the ways that specific builds can help each other out (and what level that helping comes online) than to get too focused on "which four classes should I take?"
There are certainly some party roles characters can fill. PF2 characters tend to fill multiple roles though. Here are some combat roles:
The Front liner tends to want plate mail and a shield, though defensively inclined monks with a shield do a good job as well. AC matters quite a lot in PF2 due to the crits system, and having someone exceptionally capable to getting hit will be heavily rewarded versus boss level enemies.
A martial melee damage carry of some sort. This character typically has some way to make a second attack with less than -5 MAP in a round or some way to empower their first attack. Some characters just get actions like Double Slice or abilities that reduce MAP. Others have to work harder and use knockdown+a reaction based attack.
The full suite of bonuses that can be applied are status, circumstance, and item. The character that can provide the largest bonus has a support role. There usually aren't ways to build in many circumstance bonuses to hit, but they do come up for AC.
The full suite of penalties are status, circumstance, and item. The character that can supply the largest penalty of each type has a support role. Status can come from skill actions or spells. Circumstance penalties come from flanking most often, though skills and spells can provide other ways to flat foot enemies.
Ranged healing capacity to bring fighters up from knockdown while they are in AOO range is a role.
AOE for groups of enemies is a role.
Battlefield control casting is a combat role, but it's almost always opportunistic rather than something that can be accomplished in every fight.
Alright awesome! this is some great advice!
Heres a side question then, any recommendations for some good pf2e beginner classes? I want to have a general idea of what to pick between when we make characters.
In particular I would be interested in what people say are good caster classes. (Like if I should avoid witch and wizard, are sorcerer, bard, oracle, cleric, and druid all good?)
ps. none of us are new to ttrpgs, we've been playing 5e as a group for like 6 years, pathfinder is just a lot more crunchy than 5e.
Oracles and Witches are comparatively weak; I'd avoid them if you're not passionate about making them work. The 5 classes in the core book all work, but Wizards and Sorcerers play a little bit behind until level 7. Clerics are very dependent on their deity to expand their spell list, so being careful with the build is really important. Bards and Druids are great.
Bard is probably the most "no brainer" caster since it comes with an exceptionally good class-specific cantrip in Inspire Courage. I'd recommend against Druid considering your earlier point about wanting to optimize within a niche since basically the point of Druid is to be at least a C-rank at every role and better than that at many of them.
Wizards have the subtle playstyle of being able to fireball/magic missile/whatever every turn for longer without running out of gas, it is truly a fine wine savored by only the most distinguished of optimizers.
One thing to be aware of also is that skills are not niche protected any more. For example, from previous systems the Rogue was typically the stealth, trap, and lockpicking build. Those are all skills, so you can build a Barbarian to fill that role.
On one hand, that does take out the inherent niche protection that classes usually granted. It becomes easier for characters to step on the toes of other characters.
On the other hand, it means that your choice of class does not lock you into a particular niche or two that become the only thing you can build for.
In short, for each character, their niche is what they make of it.
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As for casting class recommendations:
I like Druid. It can be built for many different things based on the choice of Druid Order. And there aren't many hidden surprises. Maybe the idea that an animal companion can't hold a front-line role for very long.
Wizard is a bit more complicated. Many of the Arcane Thesis choices don't really come online until later levels. At level 1 a Staff Nexus Wizard might as well leave the staff holding up curtains in the window. It is less powerful than the Cantrip Expansion feat.
Oracle can be fun to play and there aren't many surprises there. It makes a decent replacement for Cleric for an in-combat healer.
Bard is great for the focus cantrips. One of those classes that break the math. If you want to set the game to easy mode, have a Bard in the party. It may be boring to play though.
Cleric is going to be approximately what you expect.
Sorcerer I have heard good things of. Being able to pick a tradition is interesting. Good spontaneous caster. Cool thematic abilities and focus spells.
Witch is also able to pick a tradition and is currently the only prepared caster that can do so. The focus cantrip is underwhelming to say the least. Also, required to have a familiar, and that takes up a bunch of the class's power too, so it doesn't have much else in the way of class abilities. But combine Witch with Alchemist archetype and that is probably the most daily-rebuildable character available. Pick spells for your spell slots, pick abilities for your familiar, then pick alchemical items to craft for the day.
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As Ubertron states, make sure your character has good options for third actions, and ideally everyone in the party will as well. Something to debuff foes is a good choice (bon mot, demoralize, etc.)
As Ubertron states, make sure your character has good options for third actions, and ideally everyone in the party will as well. Something to debuff foes is a good choice (bon mot, demoralize, etc.)
I’ll third this. What is the character doing after spending their first two actions on attacks or a spell? I’ve found characters are substantially more fun to play when they’re built to have a variety of effective third actions to choose from. So things like: demoralize, bon mot, raise a shield/cast shield cantrip, command an animal companion, inspire courage, aid, recall knowledge, etc.
It’s easy to miss this when first building characters, and to give yourself only one or two third action options. But those characters are less fun to play, and (somewhat) less effective in the long run (since they have a smaller toolbox to choose from).
EDIT: To be more helpful, here’s a concrete example of a Elven Wizard (Illusionist) built to have lots of third option choices. It maxes Int, has a 16 Dex, and a 14 Cha (to boost the skill checks to conceal spells certain Wizards feats provide). They can cast electric arc/a spell for two actions. And they’re built to have a lot of effective third action options. They can: cast the Shield cantrip (if in danger of attack), fire their bow (proficiency from Elven Weapon Familiarity, and no MAP since it’s the first attack roll this turn, and they have a high Dex), recall knowledge (high Int), Demoralize (trained in Intimidation, decent Cha), move, or Sustain a spell.
So lots of fun, effective options to choose from, and select from depending on what the situation calls for.
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PF2 is designed to broaden horizons. In other games, for instance, healing means divine spells, and divine spells means cleric. In PF2 there can be all sorts of healers - to enrage my kids, I built a 10-STR barbarian/witch dedication healer who refuses to rage and uses Spirit Link to heal the party. (And of course, a DPR-focused harm font cloistered cleric to balance it out.)
So "fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric" isn't a useful mantra, but "melee combatant, ranged combatant, situation de-escalator, familiarity with magic" is probably a better mantra, with secondary characteristics like in-combat healing, out of combat healing, buffing, de-buffing, identifying magic items, Recalling, etc. A character should fill one of the primary roles and 1-2 of the secondary roles to be a "good" character.
No more "wake me up when something needs killing" - which may be a positive or negative thing depending on whether you were the type to walk away from the table every time a social encounter began.
I think the more interesting characters I've seen are ones that approach the characteristics creatively. I played with a rogue pretending to be a cleric (used nonmagical healing and wands to pretend they were a divine spellcaster), very cool. They fulfill multiple party roles, just not the way you'd expect.
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One more niche to point out. Spotting some traps is perception proficiency gated. That makes the Rogue, Ranger, and Investigator the best at trap spotting due to being the only classes that advance to legendary perception proficiency.
TBH that's one thing I kind of hate. PF2 made it so anyone could be a healer by investing in the right skills and skills are opened up so anyone can be good at anything with the right investment (granted, based on your core attribute some classes will be naturally better at certain things). Anyone can invest in thievery to become a master at disabling traps.
But then because of the perception system, some characters will just never ever be able to see certain hazards.
TBH that's one thing I kind of hate. PF2 made it so anyone could be a healer by investing in the right skills and skills are opened up so anyone can be good at anything with the right investment (granted, based on your core attribute some classes will be naturally better at certain things). Anyone can invest in thievery to become a master at disabling traps.
I see this as a strength of the system - the separation between class and skills. Proficiency gating helps with the idea that while a character can be good at a bunch of tasks, they can only be great at a small number of them. Much less likely to step on the toes of the other characters in the party once you both have higher proficiency and feat support for your chosen niche skills.
But then because of the perception system, some characters will just never ever be able to see certain hazards.
And yeah, then we run in to this. That Perception is not actually a skill and so can't be increased with skill boosts. Very irritating.
There are currently two hazards listed on AoN that have legendary in their stealth DC. I don't think this is a particularly large problem.
Well, and all the ones that I create using the Hazard Creation rules...
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There are currently two hazards listed on AoN that have legendary in their stealth DC. I don't think this is a particularly large problem.
Those classes also have a faster progression than most. I think fighters have a pretty similar progression except for getting up to legendary, though, so adding them to this list would be appropriate if you're not worried about legendary in particular.
When I consider party balance, i always go back to the forge of combat theory.
There are three roles
Hammer
Anvil
Arm
The hammer is the damage person, they want to hit hard, hit fast, hit often. Think barbarian, rogue, paladin, swashbuckler, fighter... I guess monk? Although I think their damage is kinda low.
The Anvile stabilizes the enemy for the hammer, this is the debuff person, web, grease, synesthesia etc... any class capable of reliably and consistently outputting negative statuses and controlling how you engage the ennemy.
The Arm is the math person, they make sure that the stats are topped and above. Bard, cleric, some sorcerer or oracle, etc. Name of the game is buff and heals.
Now on top of that, pf2e is very varied, most classes can fill all three roles, just make sure that you have one of each three, and when considering abilities on leveling up, keep in mind what your focus should be. Is it damage? Is it debuff? Is it buffs? How does that new class feat Help you do your thing ?
Having a coverage of all attribute and skills is very useful, and make sure that at least someone in your party has the following:
Maxed out medicine
An item that gives bonuses to medicine
A halfway decent wisdom score
The battle medicine skill feat
The ward medic skill feat
The continual recovery skill feat.
With that, you're good to go.
EDIT: To be more helpful, here’s a concrete example of a Elven Wizard (Illusionist) built to have lots of third option choices. It maxes Int, has a 16 Dex, and a 14 Cha (to boost the skill checks to conceal spells certain Wizards feats provide). They can cast electric arc/a spell for two actions. And they’re built to have a lot of effective third action options. They can: cast the Shield cantrip (if in danger of attack), fire their bow (proficiency from Elven Weapon Familiarity, and no MAP since it’s the first attack roll this turn, and they have a high Dex), recall knowledge (high Int), Demoralize (trained in Intimidation, decent Cha), move, or Sustain a spell.
I like the idea of this, but can a wizard cast spells with a bow in hand? I thought they would need to have hands free, thus rearming a bow would take up their 3rd action.
EDIT: To be more helpful, here’s a concrete example of a Elven Wizard (Illusionist) built to have lots of third option choices. It maxes Int, has a 16 Dex, and a 14 Cha (to boost the skill checks to conceal spells certain Wizards feats provide). They can cast electric arc/a spell for two actions. And they’re built to have a lot of effective third action options. They can: cast the Shield cantrip (if in danger of attack), fire their bow (proficiency from Elven Weapon Familiarity, and no MAP since it’s the first attack roll this turn, and they have a high Dex), recall knowledge (high Int), Demoralize (trained in Intimidation, decent Cha), move, or Sustain a spell.I like the idea of this, but can a wizard cast spells with a bow in hand? I thought they would need to have hands free, thus rearming a bow would take up their 3rd action.
I think you’re OK here for two reasons. First, a bow is 1+ hands, so you have one hand free whenever you’re not firing the bow. And (unlike a 2-handed weapon) you don’t need to spend any actions to re-grip it:
“A few items, such as a longbow, list 1+ for its Hands entry. You can hold a weapon with a 1+ entry in one hand, but the process of shooting it requires using a second to retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow. This means you can do things with your free hand while holding the bow without changing your grip, but the other hand must be free when you shoot. To properly wield a 1+ weapon, you must hold it in one hand and also have a hand free.”
Second, in PF2 somatic components allow you to be holding things in your hands:
”A somatic component is a specific hand movement or gesture that generates a magical nexus. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to make gestures. You can use this component while holding something in your hand, but not if you are restrained or otherwise unable to gesture freely.”
So even if you were wielding a 2-handed weapon (like a greatsword) I think you’d be OK casting spells.
So... part of the trick is to look for individual combos, too... and to know what levels those combos start to come online.
for example, you can build a kobold ranger snarecrafter and get a really pretty impressive number of free quick-set traps per day, and those things hit pretty hard. The only real issue with that is that getting enemies on to those traps can be problematic... so you want someone who's got some forced movement to toss the enemy onto the trap.... like a monk with Whirling Throw. The combo requires sixth level to fully come online (whirling throw is a 6th-level feat, and getting the traps in takes a few levels too) but since you're building the monks for maneuvers, you can get started on it in a more limited way a bit earlier than that.
Of course, then you have a monk that's big into combat maneuvers and grabbing and whatnot. A lot of those can result in the flat-footed state, which means that a rogue might be a good addition. Since he won't need so much help getting flat-footed, then possibly look into a hobgoblin ruffian rogue for the intimidation games. Oh, and hey - looks like Snare Genius from kobold means that the traps are generating Flat Footed too.
Now, at this point you're group's doing pretty well at debuffs to AC, but less well on debuffs to saves, and it doesn't have a lot of buffing going on. There's also relatively little healing, and no casters... so we're maybe lookign at a cleric/druid/sorcerer type. Cleric might be good. The party as-is is good at dishing out damage, but there's no one who's especially good as a tank, so the extra heals might be good.