White Glove Affair concept...?

[Boedullus]

***OODLES OF SPOILERS BELOW FOR WHITE GLOVE AFFAIR***

I do not get it. I think the implementation makes for interesting rolls and strategies, but it seems so... like, not related to any human psychology I know. The book opens: "heist of the century!" As players get excited for some Fireflyesque let's be bad guys action, instead they wind up having to... bid on a ship full of loot? Like it's an episode of Storage Wars for rich people? Except all the rich people are this close to backing down from the whole process? Except then once they do bid successfully then they have to steal it anyway? Except it's not a cool heist but rather a frantic smash and grab? And the ultimate prize is some BP and 6200 credits? (Which at level 9 gets one players an extremely under-leveled item?) WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE
I don't get it. This feels like it would drive players berserk confounding their expectations time and again, dangling nifty stuff in front of them and snatching it away to offer up something else, and when they resign themselves to that, repeat. Plus the whole concept seems so... weird. Like, I've never worked in shipping, but is this how it works? Someone cobbles together a trailer full of gold and auctions it off? Ugh, I'm back in questioning my sanity mode again. Really feel like the wheels are coming off on this one.

[Joseph Wilson]

I read this adventure and it immediately became the part of the AP I can't wait to get to. The fish out of water roleplay opportunities in this one are out of this world. I didn't even pay attention to the loot aspect, as I almost never do, because it's so easy to address.

From what I've been reading, this AP is really dependent on having the right group/GM combo. I'm a GM who couldn't care less about combat, and loves roleplay and moral/ethical dilemmas. And I love Firefly. Everything about this whole AP speaks to my playing preferences and I'm having some of the most fun I've had GMing in my 20+ years doing it.

[Ixal]

Thats the general problem of this AP. The expectations is that earning money is the main motivation of it and all the missions suggest this, but all the earnings are in BP which are pretty useless as they can only be used for the starship, which normally gets upgraded for free, and can't be used for anything the PCs would usually spend credits on. And you do not even use the starship all that often, so the extra BP has hardly an effect on the game anyway.

As for the triviality of the heist, thats, sadly, a necessity. Paizo APs are too detailed than to simply say to the GM "thats the situation, let the players figure out how to deal with it".
When you want to micromanage a heist it has to be generic and simple enough that different groups of various sizes, class compositions and player capabilities can pull it off.
You can't write the instructions of a Ocean 11 style heist in an AP when 90% of all groups will not be able to follow it for some reason or the other.

[Boedullus]

I hear you on the need for specifics, though I'd say several of the missions in Threefold Conspiracy do just that: setting up a scenario and letting players react. My beef here isn't excessive controls on a heist; is that there is no heist at all.
Players are told they're doing a heist, but then there's a bidding war instead. Then after frittering away a ton of time on that, they don't actually win but rather have to steal it anyway, except with no planning or finesse at all, just smash and grab.
It's written how my adventure would go if it went full worst case scenario. I introduce a heist, one player gets bored and goes a totally different way and decides to win the loot, so I set *that* up and they just kill their way to it anyway. Super disappointing.

[Noven]

Ya know, I brought up the money issue when book 1 landed and the vast majority of the people that responded were pretty dismissive. Now 5 books in, I am even more convinced that this is probably the worst way to think of a Free Trader AP since BPs have zero monetary value to make your character wealthier.

[Joseph Wilson]

The developers of the AP can't just throw more and more money at the players because they're confined by the rules of the system and the expectations of Wealth by Level. Doing it this way, for better or worse, finds a method of maintaining game balance while still having elements of trade and keeping your ship flying. Jason Tondro is doing a great series of developer commentary over on YouTube and discusses this at length.

The great thing about role-playing games is you're not confined to the rules of the system the way an official published adventure is. If you feel comfortable having your players start jumping beyond wealth by Level, it's a very easy adjustment to make.

[The Ragi]

Maybe they'll introduce in the next rulebooks some other ways to use BP.

Housing, creating business, etc - would fit well with the themes of the next AP.

Or just buy extra, smaller ships...

[Garretmander]

Joseph Wilson wrote:

The developers of the AP can't just throw more and more money at the players because they're confined by the rules of the system and the expectations of Wealth by Level. Doing it this way, for better or worse, finds a method of maintaining game balance while still having elements of trade and keeping your ship flying. Jason Tondro is doing a great series of developer commentary over on YouTube and discusses this at length.

The great thing about role-playing games is you're not confined to the rules of the system the way an official published adventure is. If you feel comfortable having your players start jumping beyond wealth by Level, it's a very easy adjustment to make.

The problem I gather from what other posters are saying, is that the players aren't getting WBL, but much lower amounts of credits.

[Ixal]

Boedullus wrote:

I hear you on the need for specifics, though I'd say several of the missions in Threefold Conspiracy do just that: setting up a scenario and letting players react. My beef here isn't excessive controls on a heist; is that there is no heist at all.

Players are told they're doing a heist, but then there's a bidding war instead. Then after frittering away a ton of time on that, they don't actually win but rather have to steal it anyway, except with no planning or finesse at all, just smash and grab.
It's written how my adventure would go if it went full worst case scenario. I introduce a heist, one player gets bored and goes a totally different way and decides to win the loot, so I set *that* up and they just kill their way to it anyway. Super disappointing.

Heists, as we know them from movies, depend on everyone having a specific skillset and everything falling into place.

But in an RPG you can't guarantee that there is even a diverse skill set in the party nor that everything falls into place.

So the options are either to leave the entire heist up to the GM, but that is not how Paizo APs are usually written, or to default to something they can guarantee. And for Starfinder that is that the party is perfectly able to murder things and walk through gunfire.

[Flyteach]

I believe that if starships had been made a more intensive part of this AP, then the BP economy would make more sense and provide a better gaming experience. Unfortunately, the AP is starship light which makes it hard to justify working for the BPs.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I think part of the issue is that you're looking at just the portion on Fortune's Heart as "the heist" when I believe it's a bigger picture than that. The initial part, stowing away aboard the mercenary vessel is the "intended" heist, attempting to steal the barge before it even comes near other interested parties, but that doesn't pan out when the PCs discover that particular barge is empty. Travelling to Fortune's Heart and participating in the auction is meant to be the PCs improvising, getting in over their heads and trying to make the bad situation turn in their favor as easily as possible, as my understanding is in any good heist movie something goes wrong and forces the thieves to improvise in order to salvage the operation. And then they're forced to improvise again when they win and their cover is blown. With the jig up, they have to grab the prize and run.

The PCs aren't (as far as the initial premise is concerned) career criminals looking for a challenge to their finesse and their scheming. They're a bunch of amateurs who have an opportunity about to blow up in their faces, so they need to think on their feet in order to get an exit. Less "Ocean's 11" and more "Fargo."

[Boedullus]

Ixal wrote:

Heists, as we know them from movies, depend on everyone having a specific skillset and everything falling into place.

But in an RPG you can't guarantee that there is even a diverse skill set in the party nor that everything falls into place.

So the options are either to leave the entire heist up to the GM, but that is not how Paizo APs are usually written, or to default to something they can guarantee. And for Starfinder that is that the party is perfectly able to murder things and walk through gunfire.

I mean, but they've actually done good heist adventures already. Several times. I don't know why everybody's acting like Ocean's 11 perfect precision is the only way to heist, but ffs you can smash and grab, diplomance, sneak, bribe... there's a ton of different skill sets that can overcome a set of established challenges. Like, what's the difference between a heist and any other adventure where you have to get past locked doors, armed enemies, traps and surveillance? There's a little more emphasis on subtlety, but really a squad of commandos is just as effective at plundering as a group of cat burglars.

Though again, my larger point in this post is really that the adventure is ill-conceived. Teasing them with a heist that never happens is only part of it. Even if the PCs do everything perfectly, it's just... kinda stupid? And I say that with full respect for the many brilliant ideas Paizo's put out in prior APs. It's probably why this one bugs me so much. It's rich people playing Storage Wars with a treasure ship, all the tedium of planning a heist without the excitement of actuating one, an auction full of participants who can be duped out of bidding in it, and an incredibly elaborate social scenario that culminates in a kill-stomp.
Like, what is even happening here. It's such a hot mess.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm kind of confused, what exactly are you looking for out of the adventure, then?

Are you suggesting what the PCs should do is try to sneak around and just steal the ship from its hangar without even bothering with the auction, like a Metal Gear Solid sort of thing?

Are you suggesting the purpose of the auction doesn't make sense? There's actual material wealth in it, yes, but it also contains information about things like the location of rich mineral deposits the owner can go on to claim and profit from. The rich people are competing for the opportunity to enrich themselves even further, but at the same time they have enough assets already that dropping out of the bidding isn't a big financial loss for them. It's a game to them, but for the much lower-class PCs it's a gameCHANGER, especially since they're betting with funds they don't actually have.

Do you feel let down by the fact that Eline automatically blows the PCs' cover once they win and they have to fight to escape instead of maintaining the scam and just flying the barge out before anyone's the wiser? They'd still have problems because the PCs know the check they're writing won't clear, exposing them as surely as Eline pointing at them and shouting "J'ACCUSE!" will.

What exactly were your expectations for the heist that The White Glove Affair didn't meet?

[Steel_Wind]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

Do you feel let down by the fact that Eline automatically blows the PCs' cover once they win and they have to fight to escape instead of maintaining the scam and just flying the barge out before anyone's the wiser? They'd still have problems because the PCs know the check they're writing won't clear, exposing them as surely as Eline pointing at them and shouting "J'ACCUSE!" will.

What exactly were your expectations for the heist that The White Glove Affair didn't meet?

The point is that Eline's blowing the PC's cover happens within seconds of the transfer to them of the codes critically necessary to gain entry to the ship's computer and so be able to fly off with the White Wind. They can't steal the ship without all the maneuvering and machinations up to that instant in time. This is explained in the sidebar regarding the ship's security system on p. 18.

That's when the final action sequence starts, that's literally about 2 seconds after the heroes have the keys to the ship's computer -- all purchased with somebody else's ID and money as apart of an elaborate long con.

As for the squawking about Credits and BP -- Jason Tondro has explained all of this in his Developer Podcast/YouTube series on BAMF and either you get it - or you don't.

And if you don't get it? Frankly, Boedullus your opinion is being shaped by preconceived notions that are out of place in this AP and do not work with the Starfinder RPG rules system. I urge you to watch all of Jason's series on it so you can "reset" your expectations so that they are reasonable.

Because right now? They aren't.

[Ixal]

Another problem is that normally a heist means that you walk away undetected, or at least so that no one can proof that you are guilty, even when they know you are.

But that does not happen here. When the PCs cover is blown and they make a run for it, with the ship, it means their guilt is known which should have consequences in the form of investigations and arrest warrants (however that works in Starfinder).
But like so often Starfinder glosses over such details...

[Steel_Wind]

Ixal wrote:

Another problem is that normally a heist means that you walk away undetected, or at least so that no one can proof that you are guilty, even when they know you are.

But that does not happen here. When the PCs cover is blown and they make a run for it, with the ship, it means their guilt is known which should have consequences in the form of investigations and arrest warrants (however that works in Starfinder).
But like so often Starfinder glosses over such details...

The activities on Fortune's Heart are not exactly all above board. The Kalistocrats are crooks, too. Their ability to Go. Run. Tell. is somewhat constrained by those realities.

The opponents of the PCs look instead to their civil remedies, rather than direct criminal justice for what has happened. And so Eline uses the lawyers (and good name) of EJ Corp (as plaintiff) to do it.

Doing just that, the PCs are sued for fraud and literally all of the PC's assets are frozen via court order across all of Known Space™ within 60 days of the event. That injunction is so extreme, they can't even buy a coffee using a creditstick. That's before a judgment is even granted or before they have had their day in court. It's a Sci Fi Mareva injunction on steroids with a reach that extends hundreds of light years in all directions. They are persona non grata and are wanted in some of those jurisdictions.

So, au contraire, for the first time in an Adventure Path or other adventure module since Gygax rolled dice at his sand table, there ARE actually adverse legal consequences for the PCs' actions -- and pretty drastic ones, too :)

[Ixal]

Steel_Wind wrote:

Ixal wrote:

Another problem is that normally a heist means that you walk away undetected, or at least so that no one can proof that you are guilty, even when they know you are.

But that does not happen here. When the PCs cover is blown and they make a run for it, with the ship, it means their guilt is known which should have consequences in the form of investigations and arrest warrants (however that works in Starfinder).
But like so often Starfinder glosses over such details...

The activities on Fortune's Heart are not exactly all above board. The Kalistocrats are crooks, too. Their ability to Go. Run. Tell. is somewhat constrained by those realities.

The opponents of the PCs look instead to their civil remedies, rather than direct criminal justice for what has happened. And so Eline uses the lawyers (and good name) of EJ Corp (as plaintiff) to do it.

Doing just that, the PCs are sued for fraud and literally all of the PC's assets are frozen via court order across all of Known Space™ within 60 days of the event. That injunction is so extreme, they can't even buy a coffee using a creditstick. That's before a judgment is even granted or before they have had their day in court. It's a Sci Fi Mareva injunction on steroids with a reach that extends hundreds of light years in all directions. They are persona non grata and are wanted in some of those jurisdictions.

So, au contraire, for the first time in an Adventure Path or other adventure module since Gygax rolled dice at his sand table, there ARE actually adverse legal consequences for the PCs' actions -- and pretty drastic ones, too :)

Them being sued is a scripted part of the AP and not connected to their specific actions at all. And as you said, the consequences are civil in nature, they can't buy stuff anymore, and the AP of course leaves them a way out that can be achieved by shooting stuff. They never have to answer to the authorities with the prospect of jail time for all the stuff they did (theft, break ins, most likely murder depending on how they dealt with, for example, the security guards in book 1 or all the other guards and mercenaries in later books, etc.)

[Steel_Wind]

So Vol 5 of the AP should have been roleplaying 23 hours a day in a cell, 1 hr in the yard - and three squares a day?

FLY FREE OR DIE: THIRTY YEARS OF HARD LABOR

EVENT 1 - THE TRIAL (Curse your Sudden and Inevitable Conviction)

EVENT 2 - HELLO FISHY (Say Hello to your new cellmates, Bubba1 and his hairier, more rapey cousin, Bubba2.)

EVENT 3 - CAFETERIA Using the new expanded economy rules for trading smokes and smuggled narcotics for favors and BPs!

EVENT 4 - SOLITARY CONFINEMENT (30 DAYS IN THE HOLE): You count a lot of bricks. Over and over. Will Save DC 18 or suffer PTSD? Roll on the below table for your acquired secondary mental illness?

EVENT 5 - PRISON BREAK - Notwithstanding the fact that this future technomagical society should be able to consign your fate to A High Tech magical Azkaban from which light itself should not be able to escape, we'll pretend you can anyway, or else Vol 6 is just Vol 5, with more bugs in the potatoes?

Seriously, where are you going with these criticisms of a RPG adventure series?

P.S.: the security guards in Vol 1 are all constructs - every one of em - though admittedly one of them is an Android.

[Ixal]

Steel_Wind wrote:

So Vol 5 of the AP should have been roleplaying 23 hours a day in a cell, 1 hr in the yard - and three squares a day?

FLY FREE OR DIE: THIRTY YEARS OF HARD LABOR

EVENT 1 - THE TRIAL (Curse your Sudden and Inevitable Conviction)

EVENT 2 - HELLO FISHY (Say Hello to your new cellmates, Bubba1 and his hairier, more rapey cousin, Bubba2.)

EVENT 3 - CAFETERIA Using the new expanded economy rules for trading smokes and smuggled narcotics for favors and BPs!

EVENT 4 - SOLITARY CONFINEMENT (30 DAYS IN THE HOLE): You count a lot of bricks. Over and over. Will Save DC 18 or suffer PTSD? Roll on the below table for your acquired secondary mental illness?

EVENT 5 - PRISON BREAK - Notwithstanding the fact that this future technomagical society should be able to consign your fate to A High Tech magical Azkaban from which light itself should not be able to escape, we'll pretend you can anyway, or else Vol 6 is just Vol 5, with more bugs in the potatoes?

Seriously, where are you going with these criticisms of a RPG adventure series?

P.S.: the security guards in Vol 1 are all constructs - every one of em - though admittedly one of them is an Android.

A prison episode would have been quite appropriate considering what the PCs do in this AP.

The problem, or missed opportunity if you want to phrase it that way, is that in an AP about the PCs being criminals thinking and behaving like a criminal, which includes avoiding detection or at least identification, is neither required or rewarded.
And that it is bad worldbuilding when no one cares if the PCs are criminals and they never have, for example, to hide from authorities.

PS: There are multiple android guards and acanites are also sentient beings. Thus killing any one of them would be murder during a robbery.