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Any demon, devil or whatever worth its brimstone can Greater Teleport at will. This causes a whole bunch of problems, and I''d like to abolish it. I'm just wondering if there's anything I'm missing.
It's a pain tactically and in worldbuilding. Tactically, a devil can strike, pop out, heal, buff, come back, rinse and repeat. And as devils are generally not stupid, it's a very obvious tactic that's no fun. It also means that crowd control doesn't work against them and neither does mundane terrain, doors, walls or the rest.
And as a GM trying to make a world that makes sense, TP should allow fiends to overrun the world. Cheliax and the Tanglebriar (to name but two places) are overrun with the things: why should they stay there? Why don't a bunch of Vrock from the Tanglebriar just TP into the middle of a kid's party in Cassomir? Why isn't Andoran subject to constant hit-and-run devil attacks? Because it's just assumed not to happen for reasons.
So if I just run a red pen through each entry in the Bestiary that says At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only) do I lose anything?
I'm not averse to fiends being able to teleport, but it should take a whole lot more than just clicking its hooves together three times and saying "There's no place like Hell."
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I think the fact that it only takes getting caught once is what keeps most of the more intelligent demons/devils from constantly and casually doing hit'n'run raids. It's not too far out of the question to run into someone with Dimensional Anchor, which can p!ss on your parade if you are playing teleport games.
The teleport thing is mainly there as a way od traveling that PC's cannot easily follow. That's it. A get out jail free card. You can do whatever you want tactically with your demons/devils... they have teleport so they can run away without being followed (too easily).
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Tactically, a devil can strike, pop out, heal, buff, come back, rinse and repeat. And as devils are generally not stupid, it's a very obvious tactic that's no fun. It also means that crowd control doesn't work against them and neither does mundane terrain, doors, walls or the rest.
Well, they still can be surprised with enough damage to kill them, they can be stunned, paralyzed etc.. They might even fall victim to a simple grapple (greater teleport requires quite a concentration check). But, even more likely, they might fall victim to their arrogance, underestimating their mortal enemies.
Beyond that, there are some dedicated character options to stop teleporting enemies. The Teleport Tactician feat comes to my mind, VoodistMonk already mentioned the Dimensional Anchor spell, and there is a paladin oath's Anchoring Aura at level 8.
And as a GM trying to make a world that makes sense, TP should allow fiends to overrun the world. Cheliax and the Tanglebriar (to name but two places) are overrun with the things: why should they stay there? Why don't a bunch of Vrock from the Tanglebriar just TP into the middle of a kid's party in Cassomir? Why isn't Andoran subject to constant hit-and-run devil attacks? Because it's just assumed not to happen for reasons.
The devils in Cheliax usually have missions to do. They are bound to the will of petty mortals - who are probably not that eager to risk an open war with Andoran. There is little point in striking against a few known key locations in Andoran, if Andoran afterwards mobilizes its military, calls down support from the Good-aligned planes, allies with Cheliax's neighbours (who don't like hit'n'run from devils either) and marches into a war Cheliax might actually lose.
The demons in the Tanglebriar bow to Treerazor. They might want to kill innocents all over Golarion, but their master wants these elves dead, so he gets upset if one of his minions acts too independently. Better obey grudgingly, have some fun hunting elves and wait for an opportunity.
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One way to "fix" this perceived problem is to apply the same rule that affects Dimension Door: "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn." So they can pop into the middle of a party, but the party has a chance to react (e.g. readied actions go off) before the baddie can act. That lets them keep their "get out of jail free" card, but makes popping into the middle of an adventuring party a bit more risky.
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Greater Teleport at will is a specific and significant challenge that must be overcome by the PC's, and to take that away is removing considerable CR from the encounter as well as the sense of achievement from the PC's for successfully overcoming it. And any creature that has Greater Teleport at will would practice using this in combat just as much as any normal Fighter would practice their Footwork while using a sword in combat. I think you should embrace this rather than get rid of it.
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I think it's the "At-Will" part that really messes with things. 3/day would still let potent fiends pop in and out of places and sow mischief, but it wouldn't be the "let's use this every other round, all day every day" thing it feels like it would be At-Will.
And sure, there are arguments as to why it could make sense...but they're just as ephemeral as their counters. If it feels wrong (it does to me), change it. Maybe--MAYBE--drop their CR down by 1 or so. I dunno.
I was thinking about this with one of those crazy CR20 things. The one that's a giant ball with four wings and has a horrific appearance that permanently blinds and feebleminds anyone who fails a DC30 save. Dude's got at-will Planeshift. I mean. Why doesn't it just spend it's days cruising around various civilizations, destroying whole populations with nothing but the fact that it exists? The whole "ah, but maybe it'll run into some adventurer-types who'll stop it" idea doesn't hold water for me. It's CR20. Who's gonna happen to be on hand to lay the smackdown on this thing? And with its intellect and various other abilities, I'm pretty sure it can make a few plans to just Planeshift back if anyone did happen to get there in time.
In summary, the Bestiary entries do not a cohesive planar ecosystem make. Those numbers and abilities make them good for fightin' PC's. If the video game-y-ness of that doesn't bother you, awesome. If it does, change away!
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The answer to Quixote's question is: The forces of evil are highly competitive and if a powerful being were to saunter off reaping destruction across the prime material plane(s) then they would return to find their powerbase divided amongst their enemies. They do not have the time to manage their powerbase and reap random destruction.
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Sure. That's one interpretation. And it works okay. But...I mean. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Evil in the traditional S&S genre is neither foolish nor stupid (I mean, just look at those Int and Wis scores). So it kind of seems like, maybe set your differences aside for a little bit and crush your foes?
And just to be clear, I'm not actually advocating that this other interpretation is superior or more valid. Just that it's as valid. So then it's really just a matter of narrative style and tone.
I like my stories to be more mysterious, less pinned down, sorted and boxed up than...I guess the Gygaxian standard usually is? Even things like creature type make me feel a trifle smothered.
So I definitely get the feeling behind nixing the at-will teleport and everything like it.
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It doesn't have to be going off wreaking random destruction. It can be scouting carefully when it has time and then wreaking destruction while grabbing souls, treasure, victims and the like. If it can GTP at will, this doesn't take any time out of its day. Like five minutes.
And unless the whole of Kyonin outside the Tanglebriar is warded against teleport and/or evil (which it is apparently not), I would fully expect demons to be popping up all over the shop tearing the place apart. They're demons. That's what they do. And when they're not doing that, they could be going to the neighbours to charm, blackmail or bribe them to attack Kyonin as well. It's evident that the elves are well versed in dealing with this, but it's been going on for thousands of years. That's not a stable state.
The only real limitation on GTP is that you need a reliable description of where you're going. That's not very hard if you simply want to travel a few hundred miles in a day to scout around, and then once you've been somewhere you can start again from there. A daily limit would put a reasonable stop to shenanigans like that.
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I don't know if Treerazor is an especially good example of this, given that he can only teleport within the Tanglebriar... it is possible that his minions suffer the same limitation.
And Kyonin is certainly prepared to deal with anything lesser than Treerazor, himself... if they can push Treerazor back away from their Sovyrian Stone, I am sure they can quickly squash any of his minions dumb enough to venture out of the 'briar. Probably just as easily as Treerazor and his minions execute any Elves foolish enough to meander into the Tanglebriar.
As for the Iathavos Qlippoth, yeah, those things are freaking scary... and if it goes on a rampage, some Good deity will send Solars to deal with it. You have to understand, though, only one such Iathavos is allowed to exist at a time... so self preservation probably keeps it from going around all willy-nilly.
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Again, that's a fine interpretation. But it's definitely not the only one. I prefer a little more nuance to my cosmos than a watered-down Cold War scenario, which is just what that feels like to me. But I honestly think that's what you end up with when everything is so clearly defined and categorized. There's not a lot of room for layers and doubt and wonder when you can look up the statblock for Heaven's janitor's cat.
If an ability like this (and there are many, at high levels) messes with the verisimilitude too much for you, cut it out. I think everyone's got a different tolerance level, along with how close to the source material they feel comfortable sticking to/straying from, and just the general tone and mood of the games they run.
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Well, ask yourself this: if you (yes YOU in real life) were born with Greater Teleport at will, how would you feel if your parents casted GM's Disjunction and removed your Greater Teleport at will because your CR rating was getting a little out of hand in your Teen years, and they just wanted to knock you down a peg? Because that's what you're doing to these poor devils right now. Meanies.
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Well, ask yourself this: if you (yes YOU in real life) were born with Greater Teleport at will, how would you feel if your parents casted GM's Disjunction and removed your Greater Teleport at will because your CR rating was getting a little out of hand in your Teen years, and they just wanted to knock you down a peg? Because that's what you're doing to these poor devils right now. Meanies.
Ryze, I like the cut of your cloth.
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I do think At Will is pretty bonkers, especially since a lot (or maybe all) of the creatures that have it ALSO have pretty good SR, making them difficult to anchor. Even at like 6/day, it'd at least be predictable. For that matter, do any GMs out there actually take full advantage of the silliness At Will GT allows? I've gone so far as to have ambushers bip in and dump a whole load of AoE junk on a sleeping party, and that's not anywhere close to what *could* be done. So it really feels like an ability that the GM has to actively hold back on abusing anyway, so I don't see any particular need to drop CR for a nerf that really just brings it more in line with how GMs actually use it anyway.
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I do think At Will is pretty bonkers, especially since a lot (or maybe all) of the creatures that have it ALSO have pretty good SR, making them difficult to anchor. Even at like 6/day, it'd at least be predictable. For that matter, do any GMs out there actually take full advantage of the silliness At Will GT allows? I've gone so far as to have ambushers bip in and dump a whole load of AoE junk on a sleeping party, and that's not anywhere close to what *could* be done. So it really feels like an ability that the GM has to actively hold back on abusing anyway, so I don't see any particular need to drop CR for a nerf that really just brings it more in line with how GMs actually use it anyway.
Anything that teleports at will doesn't walk anywhere at my table. *poof* *poof* *poof* everywhere.
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Anything that teleports at will doesn't walk anywhere at my table. *poof* *poof* *poof* everywhere.
Same here. But beware of any changes or anti-magic areas, because anyone who is used to such a convenient method of movement over a lengthy period of time will soon forget things like walking.
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I do think At Will is pretty bonkers, especially since a lot (or maybe all) of the creatures that have it ALSO have pretty good SR, making them difficult to anchor. Even at like 6/day, it'd at least be predictable. For that matter, do any GMs out there actually take full advantage of the silliness At Will GT allows? I've gone so far as to have ambushers bip in and dump a whole load of AoE junk on a sleeping party, and that's not anywhere close to what *could* be done. So it really feels like an ability that the GM has to actively hold back on abusing anyway, so I don't see any particular need to drop CR for a nerf that really just brings it more in line with how GMs actually use it anyway.Anything that teleports at will doesn't walk anywhere at my table. *poof* *poof* *poof* everywhere.
That's more flavour than actually utilizing at-will GT to its fullest extent. You could do the visual part of that with a whole host of weaker abilities too. To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying whether you should have unlimited GT or not, just that nerfing it isn't a reason to reduce CR as was suggested, so exclusively dealing with conflict. I'm suggesting that a GM actually using at-will GT to greater tactical effectiveness than say, 3/day GT is pretty rare because the things you're doing at that point have about 50/50 odds of basically being just you narrating how the players die.
So who cares if you nerf it down to 3/day unless you were seriously planning on doing something like scry-and-frying an entire PC group individually while they're in bed, unarmed, and alone.
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Does it say "native outsider" in the stat block? No? Then they had to be brought here somehow. Either they're so powerful they Planeshifted on their own, or more likely they were summoned and are now controlled by an outside force. That outside force may or may not have them running about off-leash, depending on the GM and campaign.
For powerful enough fiends here on their own day-pass, consider this: Empyrean Angels exist, among other Good aligned, super-powerful outsiders. Said Empyrean Angels can cast Gate, Miracle, and Wish once/day, among other abilities. Angels this powerful usually date back to having been created by a deity, and created with a purpose. If said purpose is to check the machinations of the CR20 fiends that like to Planeshift into children's birthday parties, then so be it.
My point is that the PCs are NOT the only thing that culls the demons and devils that appear in the Prime. Heck, the Prime isn't even the ONLY plane Outsiders like to fight their battles on. If demons and devils, or other Evil outsiders, can just randomly 'port across the face of the earth and murder with impunity, then good or neutral outsiders can run around trying to stop them. Often the forces of good, such as monadic devas like to arm mortals with info or even weapons and have THEM deal with such threats, but said NPCs would ultimately be orchestrating the control of the forces of evil.
If you're interested in running a setting where things make sense, there's rules, monsters do things for a reason, consider a lone, mid-level demon: a Gibrileth or "filth demon." This creature has a 13 Int, more than capable of complex, long-term scheming, though they apparently prefer abject violence and infecting populations with their diseases.
Now this demon has no way to transport itself between planes, so it was likely brought...
That was beautiful, please marry me!
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Luckily, this is entirely in the hands of the GM, not the players. Give that sort of ability to a PC and you have a broken campaign very, very fast (unless you build the whole thing around it). Even a 1st level commoner can smash the economic assumptions just by carting high-value objects around (remember the 50lbs limit).
So I'll just fudge it. Fiends can TP under some circumstances that may or may not apply at a given moment. Maybe they need a willing link at the target end to receive them. Maybe they need a material component or focus. Maybe they need more time or can do it only when the stars are right or with the aid of a coven.
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So, like, at will, then? I mean, it's at your will, obviously... always has been... demons and devils aren't real. Lol.
Seriously, though. The reason they don't zip zip zip in combat is because they can't... action economy does not support the use of greater teleport in combat... they can't use it like/with Dimensional Savant, so it's largely just for arriving and leaving.
Hubris. They think they are mighty enough to handle almost anything without using it, so they don't. For better or worse.
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If it doesn’t suit your campaign for outsiders to teleport at will then just remove it. From memory 5e demons and devils can’t teleport at will and it works just fine.
If you want an in game reason why the have the ability and don’t use it all the time, then perhaps overuse drains their power and turns them into the next weaker demon or devil. If on the other hand you want to increase in power, and of course they all want to, then they have to use teleport sparingly.
As to why demons and devils don’t simply wander around killing innocents, well possibly that just creates more angels. Angels whose first mission is to take down the devil that slew them. Better make sure these mortals are corrupted before they die. Souls are valuable!
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You think outsiders with At-Will Greater Teleport are bad for worldbuilding? Wait until you hear about shadows/wraiths. Unlike the Wraith/Shadowpocalypse, there are very reasonable reasons why.
The simple reason why outsiders don't go gallivanting across the material plane? It's not worth it. Mortals breed like flies and outsiders have plans. It provokes an equal response on the opposite alignment spectrum, grand war of good and evil style. A demon goes rip and tear into the countryside? An angel who gets to be stronger since the demon also removed innocents pops in and swiftly eliminates them. Or worse, you've spawned a little nugget of newly orphaned Hero Brand PC who will go on to foil centuries or millennia of planning.
And you don't always need Dimensional Anchor when a Readied Action to shoot when they try to cast, Step up/Step up and Strike, Counterspells, etc.
A Teleport is still a standard so a Devil trying to hit and run is going to be running into 4-6 readied actions.
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And you don't always need Dimensional Anchor when a Readied Action to shoot when they try to cast, Step up/Step up and Strike, Counterspells, etc.
A Teleport is still a standard so a Devil trying to hit and run is going to be running into 4-6 readied actions.
^---- Yep, this. There are many counters to GT at will, and it's a significant achievement when the PC's counter it successfully. Readied Actions to "proceed to smash face if/when he teleports" is something any party can do, and is especially potent with Holy weapons. Having Dimensional Anchor is tough to land due to SR/saves, but for any decent caster this isn't a long-shot by any means either, especially once you're lvl 13-14 and have Limited Wish for a -7 to a Save. Counterspelling the GTAW with Dispel Magic is probably your best chance though because their CL for that SLA is usually = their CR +/- 2CL, and by the time you face any Devils you should have Greater Dispel (+4 to your CL to counterspell) and/or CL-increasing items. If you have Paragon Surge and know you're about to face a Devil, you can give yourself Dispel Focus (or Greater Dispel Focus if you already have DF) for even more umph.
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why don't demons/devils abuse it? Because forbiddance is a thing that exists. Only 6th level and not only does it block it, it can harm them as well. Sure if they have SR it might bounce it, or they take a fireball to the face for the attempt. Couple that with the people high enough to cast it and you'll check any teleporting willy nillyness in the bud right quick
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There are many counters to GT at will, and it's a significant achievement when the PC's counter it successfully. Readied Actions to "proceed to smash face if/when he teleports" is something any party can do, and is especially potent with Holy weapons.
This is certainly true for tactical occasions...but it kicks you in the teeth when everyone readies for GT and the fiend does something else instead.
Having Dimensional Anchor is tough to land due to SR/saves, but for any decent caster this isn't a long-shot by any means either, especially once you're lvl 13-14 and have Limited Wish for a -7 to a Save. Counterspelling the GTAW with Dispel Magic is probably your best chance though because their CL for that SLA is usually = their CR +/- 2CL, and by the time you face any Devils you should have Greater Dispel (+4 to your CL to counterspell) and/or CL-increasing items. If you have Paragon Surge and know you're about to face a Devil, you can give yourself Dispel Focus (or Greater Dispel Focus if you already have DF) for even more umph.
Unlimited GT comes in at around CR5, not CR13. If it were restricted to high level monsters like Glabrezu and Gelugons and so on there would be less of an issue, but...
These guys get GT at will:
Nixudaemon CR7
Suspiridaemon CR7
Andrazku CR5
Babau CR6
Incubus CR6
Nabasu CR8
Shadow demon CR7
Succubus CR7
Thoxel demon CR5
Yaenit CR6
Accuser Devil CR3
Barbazu CR5
Curse Devil CR5
Gambling Devil CR4
Lesser Host Devil CR3
Mnemor devil CR5 (according to AoN, no 50lbs limit...)
Lesser Possession Devil CR6
Vayuphak Asura CR5
(plus a few more who get 3/day at lower CR. Daemons and Divs aren't quite as hot at GT as demons & devils of the same CR; some get Dim Door instead. And Qlippoths generally get nothing.)
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There are many counters to GT at will, and it's a significant achievement when the PC's counter it successfully. Readied Actions to "proceed to smash face if/when he teleports" is something any party can do, and is especially potent with Holy weapons.This is certainly true for tactical occasions...but it kicks you in the teeth when everyone readies for GT and the fiend does something else instead.
Having Dimensional Anchor is tough to land due to SR/saves, but for any decent caster this isn't a long-shot by any means either, especially once you're lvl 13-14 and have Limited Wish for a -7 to a Save. Counterspelling the GTAW with Dispel Magic is probably your best chance though because their CL for that SLA is usually = their CR +/- 2CL, and by the time you face any Devils you should have Greater Dispel (+4 to your CL to counterspell) and/or CL-increasing items. If you have Paragon Surge and know you're about to face a Devil, you can give yourself Dispel Focus (or Greater Dispel Focus if you already have DF) for even more umph.Unlimited GT comes in at around CR5, not CR13. If it were restricted to high level monsters like Glabrezu and Gelugons and so on there would be less of an issue, but...
These guys get GT at will:
Nixudaemon CR7
Suspiridaemon CR7
Andrazku CR5
Babau CR6
Incubus CR6
Nabasu CR8
Shadow demon CR7
Succubus CR7
Thoxel demon CR5
Yaenit CR6
Accuser Devil CR3
Barbazu CR5
Curse Devil CR5
Gambling Devil CR4
Lesser Host Devil CR3
Mnemor devil CR5 (according to AoN, no 50lbs limit...)
Lesser Possession Devil CR6
Vayuphak Asura CR5(plus a few more who get 3/day at lower CR. Daemons and Divs aren't quite as hot at GT as demons & devils of the same CR; some get Dim Door instead. And Qlippoths generally get nothing.)
Yeah, I was talking about scary, higher level devils. For low lvl devils, Dispel Magic for Counterspell starts at lvl 5, and GTAW as an SLA is susceptible to Dispel. Readied actions with Holy weapons work just fine too.
Its kinda rare to run into a lower level devil by itself. Usually they're summoned in by a higher level devil.
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Fiends are tough, deal with it.
Who is to say they don't? There are a lot of planes out there to choose from (an infinite amount, or as close as makes no difference), so the chances of any given area being affected is negligible. The reason you haven't experienced it is because it hasn't gotten around to you yet.
I was thinking about this with one of those crazy CR20 things. The one that's a giant ball with four wings and has a horrific appearance that permanently blinds and feebleminds anyone who fails a DC30 save. Dude's got at-will Planeshift. I mean. Why doesn't it just spend it's days cruising around various civilizations, destroying whole populations with nothing but the fact that it exists? The whole "ah, but maybe it'll run into some adventurer-types who'll stop it" idea doesn't hold water for me. It's CR20. Who's gonna happen to be on hand to lay the smackdown on this thing? And with its intellect and various other abilities, I'm pretty sure it can make a few plans to just Planeshift back if anyone did happen to get there in time.
This. Also, for, the monster he refers to (The Iathavos qlippoth) there's only one in the entire multiverse (if killed, another replaces it, but it's a new individual). It and its predecessors may well have destroyed numerous civilizations.