Has there been any word on Drow as an Ancestry?

[keftiu]

James Jacobs wrote:

Rysky wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Urdefhans were an attempt to build something that could surrogate githyanki.

Ooo...

I've never quite said all of this out loud and in public, by the way, because I wanted to give those four a chance to settle into those roles for Pathfinder. It's been decades now though, and I feel like they have, so hopefully that helps folks understand why I've been hesitant to open up serpentfolk as PC ancestries (or morlocks, seugathis, and urdefhans, for that matter).

I think my counter to that might be that you did much the same in carving out a unique niche for goblins and people wound up loving playing them.

Also; some folks loved the weird illithid-touched options in 3.5!

[TwilightKnight]

The evil genius that is James Jacobs!

[Rysky]

keftiu wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Rysky wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Urdefhans were an attempt to build something that could surrogate githyanki.

Ooo...

I've never quite said all of this out loud and in public, by the way, because I wanted to give those four a chance to settle into those roles for Pathfinder. It's been decades now though, and I feel like they have, so hopefully that helps folks understand why I've been hesitant to open up serpentfolk as PC ancestries (or morlocks, seugathis, and urdefhans, for that matter).

I think my counter to that might be that you did much the same in carving out a unique niche for goblins and people wound up loving playing them.

Also; some folks loved the weird illithid-touched options in 3.5!

Lords of Madness had some of my favourite character options ^w^

[James Jacobs]

Rysky wrote:

keftiu wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Rysky wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Urdefhans were an attempt to build something that could surrogate githyanki.

Ooo...

I've never quite said all of this out loud and in public, by the way, because I wanted to give those four a chance to settle into those roles for Pathfinder. It's been decades now though, and I feel like they have, so hopefully that helps folks understand why I've been hesitant to open up serpentfolk as PC ancestries (or morlocks, seugathis, and urdefhans, for that matter).

I think my counter to that might be that you did much the same in carving out a unique niche for goblins and people wound up loving playing them.

Also; some folks loved the weird illithid-touched options in 3.5!

Lords of Madness had some of my favourite character options ^w^

Woo! That brings back memories!

[James Jacobs]

keftiu wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Rysky wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Urdefhans were an attempt to build something that could surrogate githyanki.

Ooo...

I've never quite said all of this out loud and in public, by the way, because I wanted to give those four a chance to settle into those roles for Pathfinder. It's been decades now though, and I feel like they have, so hopefully that helps folks understand why I've been hesitant to open up serpentfolk as PC ancestries (or morlocks, seugathis, and urdefhans, for that matter).

I think my counter to that might be that you did much the same in carving out a unique niche for goblins and people wound up loving playing them.

Also; some folks loved the weird illithid-touched options in 3.5!

That's absolutely why we made goblins a core ancestry, but the splash that goblins made is a LOT larger than the splash that serpentfolk made. It's larger than pretty much anything, in fact. In part that has to do with them being first out the gate I guess, and in part it's got to do with Wayne's amazing work on illustrating them.

Had serpentfolk made the same sort of impression overall when they debuted in "Into the Darklands" or later played a key role in the Serpent's Skull adventure path, then maybe in that alternate universe they would have been something we did something with. But as it played out, lizardfolk were way ahead of them in that race, which is why they were the first example of a player option made from something that, in previous editions, wouldn't work because they had "racial Hit Dice."

[Jedi Maester]

James Jacobs wrote:

We can't use mind flayers. But I do want Pathifnder to have a powerful, notable, easilly recognizable villain to dwell in its Darklands that packs something of the nostalgia element that mind flayers do. Serpentfolk were my choice for that illithid surrogate, which is 100% why I first introduced them to Pathfinder as one of the few new monsters in "Into the Darklands."

I can totally see this now! For me, I think the main reason I haven't see it before is because they aren't in Orv. Sekamina is like the medium difficulty. There are Drows and Ghouls and such. But Orv is where the real scary stuff is at. Things like Neothelids and Aboleths. Illithids are on that level to me, and the main reptile monster down there are the Xulgath. If Serpentfolk played on that level and could put up a fight to these guys, then I would totally see Serpentfolk as comparable to the Illithids.

[Ly'ualdre]

Speaking of Seugathis, I found it rather interesting that they were given a trait tag for their Ancestry while their creators, the Neothelid, do not. It jumped out at me immediately when I saw it.

On the matter or Serpentfolk, if always kind of assumed they were an analog to the Illithid, but knowing for certain that they are is very cool. That said, I can understand and even agree with Serpentfolk as a GM only tool. Although, I still like my idea of a Yuan-Ti style "Lesser Serpentfolk", but I digress.

Mindflayers were pretty prevalent in D&D iirc. I don't feel like Serpentfolk have had nearly as much attention. Is like to see that changed if possible.

Out of curiosity, does Pathfinder have a Beholder analog? I can't really think of any Pathfinder monsters that seem to fill a similar role.

Also, maybe this thread should now be called "Monsters.. can I play them?" Lol

[James Jacobs]

Ly'ualdre wrote:

Speaking of Seugathis, I found it rather interesting that they were given a trait tag for their Ancestry while their creators, the Neothelid, do not. It jumped out at me immediately when I saw it.

On the matter or Serpentfolk, if always kind of assumed they were an analog to the Illithid, but knowing for certain that they are is very cool. That said, I can understand and even agree with Serpentfolk as a GM only tool. Although, I still like my idea of a Yuan-Ti style "Lesser Serpentfolk", but I digress.

Mindflayers were pretty prevalent in D&D iirc. I don't feel like Serpentfolk have had nearly as much attention. Is like to see that changed if possible.

Out of curiosity, does Pathfinder have a Beholder analog? I can't really think of any Pathfinder monsters that seem to fill a similar role.

Also, maybe this thread should now be called "Monsters.. can I play them?" Lol

The methodology of what does and doesn't get its own trait tag is... kinda random. Probably best to not read TOO much into that.

And no, we don't have a beholder analog. That monster is so unusual and iconic and recognizable that it's something I never had much of an interest in trying to do a replacement for, to be honest.

[Dargath]

James Jacobs wrote:

keftiu wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Rysky wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Urdefhans were an attempt to build something that could surrogate githyanki.

Ooo...

I've never quite said all of this out loud and in public, by the way, because I wanted to give those four a chance to settle into those roles for Pathfinder. It's been decades now though, and I feel like they have, so hopefully that helps folks understand why I've been hesitant to open up serpentfolk as PC ancestries (or morlocks, seugathis, and urdefhans, for that matter).

I think my counter to that might be that you did much the same in carving out a unique niche for goblins and people wound up loving playing them.

Also; some folks loved the weird illithid-touched options in 3.5!

That's absolutely why we made goblins a core ancestry, but the splash that goblins made is a LOT larger than the splash that serpentfolk made. It's larger than pretty much anything, in fact. In part that has to do with them being first out the gate I guess, and in part it's got to do with Wayne's amazing work on illustrating them.

Had serpentfolk made the same sort of impression overall when they debuted in "Into the Darklands" or later played a key role in the Serpent's Skull adventure path, then maybe in that alternate universe they would have been something we did something with. But as it played out, lizardfolk were way ahead of them in that race, which is why they were the first example of a player option made from something that, in previous editions, wouldn't work because they had "racial Hit Dice."

Thank god for Lizardmen! As a Warhammer fan and a player of the Lizardmen army (now called Seraphon in Age of Sigmar), even though it's clearly different worlds, being able to be a Lizardman riding a dinosaur (Or Riding Drake) is super fun! Fighter + Cavalier!! You can basically pretend to be a Scar-Veteran on Cold one!

Not to mention you can pretend to be something like a Kroxigor with Giant Instinct Barbarian!

Kobolds I've been trying to figure out how to make hit and run like skinks since they're small and look like reptiles.

Point is, I adore Lizardmen and I've already designed 3 characters who are Lizardmen thus far! Also I've imported some of my Elder Scrolls Argonian characters too :P

[Ly'ualdre]

With how many hints have been dropped into what books we've had, I'm looking at everything as a hint of things to come. I don't imagine the Seugathis would be an Ancestry or anything. Although, I wouldn't be upset if they were either truly. I'd kind of assumed it was maybe more of a there are likely to be multiple kinds of Seugathis, like Servant and Reality Warper. But even they seems to be subjective and random. I mean, the Vidileth aren't in the Alghollthu family tag like I thought they might be. So idk. Lol

I suppose I wouldn't know what to do with a Beholder analog. But, given how creative some of the others you presented, I wouldn't have been surprised if any of the Aberrations we have were an analog.

[CorvusMask]

Serpentfolk starting out as analogs to mindflayers does make lot of sense in retrospect, though I hadn't connected the dots x'D

I think main reason for that is that ithillids are brain eating aliens from either far away future, far realm or other type of alternate dimension. Meanwhile Zyss are megalomaniac psychic underground empire (with god emperor) that used to rule the world and have some aztec inspirations with sacrificing mortal intelligent creatures.

Like, serpentfolk don't as many "weird" traits to make them feel otherwordly. Weirdest thing about them is that once Ghol-Gan empire got in contact with them, all cyclops started to degenerate into cannibalistic hedonists <_< We don't know lot about Zyss culture actually outside of their zealotry and expansionist nature, so I kinda wonder if that does reflect what it is like.

But yeah, on first glance, Zyss seem like "yet another advanced evil empire in decline" like yeah if Ydersius was restored they could start war on surface world, but they don't have lot of alien traits like mind flayers do.

Still though, in retrospect when that was brought up, I'm able to see which parts of serpentfolk were inspired by mind flayers since there ARE similarities I hadn't realized before x'D

[HumbleGamer]

Jacobs ( little ot, but since we are talking about heritages... ), are you happy with the android Ancestry and its heritages ( what's your favorite one?)?

I have to say that it's the first time ( Not that I don't like other heritages ) I really like every since heritage that an ancestry have ( they are also so different and specific that they really convey the feeling of being an android ).

Also, mind to give any tip about deities and religious stuff?

[Quote+Most androids are neutral. They care for their own safety and that of their companions and their kind. Androids interested in religion usually worship Casandalee or Brigh, goddesses that unite invention and life. Other popular deities include Desna, Irori, and Gozreh.

I am trying to get what might be the connection to Desna, Irori or Gozreh.

[AceofMoxen]

I come from 3.5, and one thing I really loved was the ability to play as nearly any monster-demons, ithilids, half-dragons, about half the monsters had some kind of level adjustment that made them playable. It was rarely balanced, and I've come to accept that it was probably a poor choice, but it was a lot of fun. So I'm in favor of more monstrous races being made. I'd love to see options for playing, like a full-blooded angel, following a party and helping them out.

As far as a darklands book, I'm in no hurry. FR's underdark has been covered in so much depth as to take any joy out of exploring underground in classic fantasy. 5e's Out of the Abyss really suffered from being set in a boring place. A PF2 darklands book would have to be either truly wonderous or truly terrifying. I couldn't stand another book of stupidly evil Drow.

nephandys wrote:

I'd love to see the Pathfinder equivalent of Lamentations of the Flame Princess' - Veins of the Earth. I'd really like more information and mechanics involving exploration of travel and survival in the area in addition to monsters/ancestries/locations. The environment of the Darklands should be deadly and terrifying in and of itself.

Veins of the Earth is fantastic as a setting-agnostic book. Highly recommend. It really expresses the terror of being underground. Of course, darkvision of any kind is very rare in LotFP, so that adds to the terror.

[Staffan Johansson]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Quote:

Most androids are neutral. They care for their own safety and that of their companions and their kind. Androids interested in religion usually worship Casandalee or Brigh, goddesses that unite invention and life. Other popular deities include Desna, Irori, and Gozreh.

I am trying to get what might be the connection to Desna, Irori or Gozreh.

I'm not James, but it seems to me that both Desna and Irori are gods that encourage exploration — Desna of the world around you, and Irori of the inner self. They also often lead a nomadic life, which again favors Desna, and to an extent Gozreh because nomads are at the mercy of the elements which is Gozreh's domain.

[HumbleGamer]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

Quote:

Most androids are neutral. They care for their own safety and that of their companions and their kind. Androids interested in religion usually worship Casandalee or Brigh, goddesses that unite invention and life. Other popular deities include Desna, Irori, and Gozreh.

I am trying to get what might be the connection to Desna, Irori or Gozreh.

I'm not James, but it seems to me that both Desna and Irori are gods that encourage exploration — Desna of the world around you, and Irori of the inner self. They also often lead a nomadic life, which again favors Desna, and to an extent Gozreh because nomads are at the mercy of the elements which is Gozreh's domain.

Thanks Staffan ( especially the connection with Gozreh )!

[James Jacobs]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Jacobs ( little ot, but since we are talking about heritages... ), are you happy with the android Ancestry and its heritages ( what's your favorite one?)?

I have to say that it's the first time ( Not that I don't like other heritages ) I really like every since heritage that an ancestry have ( they are also so different and specific that they really convey the feeling of being an android ).

Also, mind to give any tip about deities and religious stuff?

[Quote+Most androids are neutral. They care for their own safety and that of their companions and their kind. Androids interested in religion usually worship Casandalee or Brigh, goddesses that unite invention and life. Other popular deities include Desna, Irori, and Gozreh.

I am trying to get what might be the connection to Desna, Irori or Gozreh.

I originally designed the first version of what would be come Pathfinder's (and then Starfinder's) androids for my homebrew post-apocalyptic game, transplanting them into Pathfinder (along with many of that homebrew game's items and other rules) via the Technology Guide. Since then, I've largely left the development of androids to the rest of the folks here, and I'm quite delighted with how they've been presented in Starfinder AND in 2nd edition Pathfinder!

As for deities, the obvious choice would be Casandalee, but androids can pretty much worship whatever deity makes sense for them and their beliefs. They're yet again like humans in that regard.

[UnArcaneElection]

Sudden inspration for a Serpentfolk character . . . .

[Perpdepog]

Ly'ualdre wrote:

With how many hints have been dropped into what books we've had, I'm looking at everything as a hint of things to come. I don't imagine the Seugathis would be an Ancestry or anything. Although, I wouldn't be upset if they were either truly. I'd kind of assumed it was maybe more of a there are likely to be multiple kinds of Seugathis, like Servant and Reality Warper. But even they seems to be subjective and random. I mean, the Vidileth aren't in the Alghollthu family tag like I thought they might be. So idk. Lol

So far the best criteria I can figure for trait tags are if the family of thing is especially notable, like Dinosaur, if they are a notable thing that is transformed from another thing, like Vampire, or if they are intelligent but may have some biological or magical variance that wouldn't easily map to career paths, like Seugathi.

Which makes Alghollthu not having their own trait odder, now that I think about it. They are a large, interconnected family of things, they often transform other beings into forms they want, and possess magical and biological variance between them. We even have rules that specifically reference them with the Azarketi. Maybe something to consider for future errata?