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The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime ...
Bloodline Arcana: When casting any spell that deals fire damage, you can instead heal your targets. The spell deals no damage, and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal.
No, sneak attack increase only the damage. If you use the bloodline arcana you deal no damage.
Eh, I'd read it the other way...
It would deal extra fire damage normally, instead, it deals no damage and heals that amount instead, including the SA increased amount.
And you are right in reading it that way. Any additional fire damage to the spell is included in the damage that the spell would have normally dealt, and is therefore included in the healing done via the Phoenix bloodline arcana.
Since the Arcane Trickster's Surprise Spells ability adds additional damage of the same type as the spell, you can use it on any fire-dealing damage spell to increase the healing.
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What part of "The spell deals no damage" makes you think that the spell deal damage and then converts it to healing?
How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?
The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Again, you need to deal damage. If you don't deal it, you don't get to add the sneak attack damage.
Just read the entire sentence. Everybody else seems to understand the healing calculation just fine.
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Diego's right.
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I too believe Diego is right.
Same way cure light wounds doesn't work with sneak attack to heal, it heals instead of dealing damage.
Yep, an attack needs to do HP damage for Sneak Attack to be applied, so once you decide to heal with your spell instead, Sneak Attack can no longer be added to it.
When casting any spell that deals fire damage, you can instead heal your targets. The spell deals no damage, and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal.Similarly, using this ability on creature that is vulnerable to fire shouldn't heal additional HP either because you aren't actually doing damage.
Both sides are right and wrong here...
1) the healing from Phoenix bloodline arcana is a conversion of the damage dealt into healing. The spell deals no actual damage, instead half of the damage the spell would have otherwise dealt is applied as healing.
2) you don’t get sneak attack on healing. Sneak attack damage is applied after the initial source damage. It is a separate damage source and requires one to actually deal damage with an attack (note: damage reduced by DR is still damage dealt), or otherwise inflict a harmful condition. Healing is neither harmful nor actual damage.
3) Cure spells can inflict sneak attack damage, but only when used to harm undead or any creatures with a form of negative energy affinity.
The big question, is the damage "untyped" or is it of the element of the spell. It seems if it was fire, then the extra dice gets applied to the healing calculation.
The damage is of the same type as the spell, which is why you need to use a fire dmg spell to make use of it:
At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
It's pretty straightforward and easy to understand: You calculate the spell damage as normal (applying all modifiers), then you omit all non-fire damage, divide the remainder by 2 and the result is the amount of healing done.
Hard to believe that people think reading just half a sentence gives them a proper understanding of a rule mechanic. xD
A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.
See, even a level 1 cleric can prepare and cast a level-9 cleric spell, if you read just the bolded part of the sentence! xD
Chell's #1 point is why I was asking.
The wording on the arcana that makes me ask is:
When casting any spell that deals fire damage, you can instead heal your targets. The spell deals no damage, and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal.So it would "normally deal" the sneak attack damage if you're applying your surprise spell function, or in the case of using rays, if the target is unaware of you. The big question, is the damage "untyped" or is it of the element of the spell. It seems if it was fire, then the extra dice gets applied to the healing calculation.
Two problems arise that make the answer no to getting the sneak attack dice on the healing.
Problem #1: Sneaky spells explicitly requires the spell to actually deal hitpoint damage. Phoenix bloodline fire spells apply fire damage as healing when utilizing the arcana. They do not actually deal hitpoint damage anymore.
Problem #2: As I previously stated, sneak attack damage is not spell damage. While sneak attack damage adopts the damage type of the attack that delivers it, it is in all ways still its own source of damage. It is a form of bonus damage.
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Chell's #1 point is why I was asking.
The wording on the arcana that makes me ask is:
When casting any spell that deals fire damage, you can instead heal your targets. The spell deals no damage, and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal.So it would "normally deal" the sneak attack damage if you're applying your surprise spell function, or in the case of using rays, if the target is unaware of you. The big question, is the damage "untyped" or is it of the element of the spell. It seems if it was fire, then the extra dice gets applied to the healing calculation.Two problems arise that make the answer no to getting the sneak attack dice on the healing.
Problem #1: Sneaky spells explicitly requires the spell to actually deal hitpoint damage. Phoenix bloodline fire spells apply fire damage as healing when utilizing the arcana. They do not actually deal hitpoint damage anymore.
Problem #2: As I previously stated, sneak attack damage is not spell damage. While sneak attack damage adopts the damage type of the attack that delivers it, it is in all ways still its own source of damage. It is a form of bonus damage.
I fully agree with #1, but disagree with #2.
The sneak attack is fully part of the attack to which it is added. If it is added to weapon damage you apply DR only once, if you apply it to energy damage, you apply energy resistance only once. If it was a different source of damage you would apply twice, once for each source of damage.
Rules as written, Surprise Spells at lvl 10 AT allows SnA dice to be added as additional damage ONLY IF the spell in question deals HP damage. Phoenix Bloodline Arcana causes a fire spell to cause no HP damage and instead cause 1/2 the damage it would normally cause as healing to a living target, ergo you cannot add SnA dice to the healing because no HP damage was caused.
If you're a GM and you allow Arcane Tricksters with Phoenix Bloodline and SnA to heal in this way, that's fine, it's your game, but know that this is a house rule and not per RAW.
Surprise Spells
At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
Bloodline Arcana: When casting any spell that deals fire damage, you can instead heal your targets. The spell deals no damage, and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal.
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As a GM, and someone who actually has a character/NPC that makes use of the Phoenix bloodline, I agree with Diego and the others. You are not dealing damage, you can't add sneak attack damage to a spell that doesn't actually deal damage, and you can't strike vital areas without dealing damage. So, no, the sneak attack damage doesn't get added to the spell damage to heal.
Breaking it down realistically (as if in an in-universe way of explaining it), you are not striking anyone with the normal spell effect. You are converting the fire damage from the spell within your own bloodline ability and releasing the spell energy in a similar manner that heals instead of harms. The conversion has already happened before the spell is able to effect the target. Therefore, the spell cannot do any damage after it has been cast, and thus does not qualify for sneak attack.
Bloodline Arcana: When casting any spell that deals fire damage, you can instead heal your targets. The spell deals no damage, and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal.
Would you normally deal the additional damage with the spell? Yes;
Therefore the damage is included in the calculation of the healing;It's literally insane to read just half of a sentence;
Maybe using ";" instead of "." can trick those afflicted by such a condition into reading the entire sentence; xD
If we use that reasoning ...
When laying your hand upon a creature, you channel negative energy that deals 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5).
Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell cures such a creature of a like amount of damage, rather than harming it.
... we can get sneak attack when curing undead with inflict spells, and if that works ...
When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage.
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Bloodline Arcana: When casting any spell that deals fire damage, you can instead heal your targets. The spell deals no damage, and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal.Would you normally deal the additional damage with the spell? Yes;
Therefore the damage is included in the calculation of the healing;It's literally insane to read just half of a sentence;
Maybe using ";" instead of "." can trick those afflicted by such a condition into reading the entire sentence; xD
Or maybe trying to sneak attack your allies is insane. Chaotic evil even.
If we use that reasoning ...
You mean reading sentences as a whole instead of just the beginning? That's a great idea and I fully support you switching over to that form of reasoning!
... we can get sneak attack when curing undead with inflict spells, and if that works ...
Inflict spells don't deal damage on undead, so the Surprise Spells ability doesn't work on it. :)
Sorry, but no. Using this chain of reasoning is going to lead to all kinds of shenanigans where a character with a moderate amount of sneak attack damage dips a single level of sorcerer and starts shanking their friends with a fire based touch attack spell (like Produce Flame) and becomes a really, really good healer.
Rogue: "Trust me. Stand really still and don't move"
Other PC: "Uh ... ok?"
Rogue casts [insert fire spell] and proceeds to stab the PC in the back repeatedly.
Rogue: "There we go, all healed."
Other PC: "Uh, what the hell just happened?"
So, no. Like the vast majority of the time, I am taking the strictest reading of the ability, because it is the only one that makes sense when applied broadly across the game system.
If we use that reasoning ...You mean reading sentences as a whole instead of just thebeginningend?
As much as I appreciate the condescention (which is possibly deserved), I think I'm the kettle and you're the pot in this scenario.
Sorry, but no. Using this chain of reasoning is going to lead to all kinds of shenanigans where a character with a moderate amount of sneak attack damage dips a single level of sorcerer and starts shanking their friends with a fire based touch attack spell (like Produce Flame) and becomes a really, really good healer.
You mean spending 10 levels on the Arcane Trickster prestige class to get its capstone is a "shenanigan"? xD
Yeah, I'm sure the game is totally unbalanced when a level 15+ spellcaster with a unique sorcerer bloodline is able to heal his party in between combat with low-level spell-slots.
As much as I appreciate the condescention (which is possibly deserved), I think I'm the kettle and you're the pot in this scenario.
If you appreciate the condescension, let me point you to this dictionary for the purpose of spelling: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/condescension ;)
You mean spending 10 levels on the Arcane Trickster prestige class to get its capstone is a "shenanigan"? xD
Yeah, I'm sure the game is totally unbalanced when a level 15+ spellcaster with a unique sorcerer bloodline is able to heal his party in between combat with low-level spell-slots.
Oh, my poor, poor summer child. You think this SPECIFIC example of ONE instance of a HIGH level character pulling this off is enough to justify allowing such a loose, and dangerous, reading of the ability?
Using sneak attack in this manner to heal your allies with a fire spell can be pulled off EXTREMELY early on, and ramps up exceedingly quickly after wards. It just takes a half-elf, with Multidsciplined alternate racial trait and Bifurcated Magic to start using 3d6+3 fire damage (1d6+3 spell, +1d6 sneak, +1d6 Accomplished sneak attacker) from Produce Flame to heal their allies an average 6 damage (6.75 specifically) THREE times per casting of the spell. Your friend's Cure moderate will heal (2d8+3) 12 average compared to their 18 average.
You could do this with a Rogue/Druid/Sorcerer (level 3) or replace the Rogue level with a level of Ninja, and suddenly you have character able to vanish for a round and easily initiate the sneak attack. So, again, no. If the ability means what you think it means, then I really don't think you actually care for the integrity of the rules.
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I think you've got it backwards? Isn't the phrase "The kettle calling the pot black"
I've always known it as "Pot calling the Kettle black". It's possible there are regional variances, but the point is that they'd both be black (from soot), so it doesn't really matter which way it goes.
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As much as I appreciate the condescention (which is possibly deserved), I think I'm the kettle and you're the pot in this scenario.If you appreciate the condescension, let me point you to this dictionary for the purpose of spelling: CONDESCENSION ;)
Touché
I will say that while I don't think it's legal, I also don't think it's really break the game to allow it.
In-combat healing is basically always a subpar option, and for theory-crafter's it's the devil. Adding a few extra d6 healing isn't going to hurt that much.
For out-of-combat healing: As far as I can tell the Phoenix Bloodline Sorcerer could already take Magical Lineage (Ray of Frost), then apply the Elemental Spell (fire) metamagic to their Ray of Frost and have a healing cantrip.
It would do an average of 0.66HP of healing per round, but you could fully heal your party for no cost between fights. Even if we allowed sneak attack to function with this, they now heal (10d6+1d3) ÷2 = ~18HP/round ... at level 19. It's really not going to break the game.
You mean spending 10 levels on the Arcane Trickster prestige class to get its capstone is a "shenanigan"? xD
Yeah, I'm sure the game is totally unbalanced when a level 15+ spellcaster with a unique sorcerer bloodline is able to heal his party in between combat with low-level spell-slots.
Oh, my poor, poor summer child. You think this SPECIFIC example of ONE instance of a HIGH level character pulling this off is enough to justify allowing such a loose, and dangerous, reading of the ability?
Using sneak attack in this manner to heal your allies with a fire spell can be pulled off EXTREMELY early on, and ramps up exceedingly quickly after wards. It just takes a half-elf, with Multidsciplined alternate racial trait and Bifurcated Magic to start using 3d6+3 fire damage (1d6+3 spell, +1d6 sneak, +1d6 Accomplished sneak attacker) from Produce Flame to heal their allies an average 6 damage (6.75 specifically) THREE times per casting of the spell. Your friend's Cure moderate will heal (2d8+3) 12 average compared to their 18 average.
You could do this with a Rogue/Druid/Sorcerer (level 3) or replace the Rogue level with a level of Ninja, and suddenly you have character able to vanish for a round and easily initiate the sneak attack. So, again, no. If the ability means what you think it means, then I really don't think you actually care for the integrity of the rules.
I don't want to rain on your parade, but none of that works: the Phoenix bloodline arcana only converts fire damage to healing, all other damage - e.g. precision damage from sneak attacks - is ignored in the healing calculation.
It only works with the Arcane Trickster capstone Surprise Spells, because that ability specifically turns the precision damage (from sneak attacks) into the type of damage the spell normally does.
But what do I know, I'm just a poor, poor summer child.
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So, we've established two differing basic interpretations here:
- a) Sneak Attack is applied after converting to healing and therefore can not be applied to your now 'non-damaging' spell.
- b) Sneak Attack is applied before converting to healing and therefore adds to the amount healed.
Personally, I think you also need to keep the following questions in mind:
- Does 'Immunity to Fire' make you immune to the healing?
- Does 'Fire Resistance' reduce the amount healed?
- Does 'vulnerable to fire' increase the amount healed?
So, we've established two differing basic interpretations here:
- a) Sneak Attack is applied after converting to healing and therefore can not be applied to your now 'non-damaging' spell.
- b) Sneak Attack is applied before converting to healing and therefore adds to the amount healed.
Neither is right.
The essence is in how the healing damage is calculated: You calculate the amount of healing based on how much fire damage the spell would normally deal (i.e. if it were not converted by the bloodline arcana).
That is pretty straightforward.
Just calculate the spell damage as you would do without the arcana, including modifiers and everything. Once you have the damage, remove all the non-fire damage from it, and divide the remainder by half. That's how much it heals.
Fire immunity/vulnerability et.al. plays no role, as it is not part of the amount of damage the spell deals, but the amount of damage the target takes due to the target's abilities. However, if the target has abilities that improve healing (e.g. Fey Foundling), then these abilities would trigger.
The precision subtype is added, but the base damage remains...
All non-fire damage is absolutely irrelevant, because such damage doesn't play a role in the healing calculation.
I don't want to rain on your parade, but none of that works: the Phoenix bloodline arcana only converts fire damage to healing, all other damage - e.g. precision damage from sneak attacks - is ignored in the healing calculation.
It only works with the Arcane Trickster capstone Surprise Spells, because that ability specifically turns the precision damage (from sneak attacks) into the type of damage the spell normally does.
But what do I know, I'm just a poor, poor summer child.
All sneak attack damage is the same type of damage as the base damage.
If you sneak attack someone with a piercing weapon the sneak attack damage is piercing.
If you sneak attack someone with a magic weapon the sneak attack damage is magic.
If you sneak attack someone with a fire weapon* the sneak attack damage is fire.
*
All sneak attack damage is the same type of damage as the base damage.
Isn't that limited to only works on weapons and hit point damage? Wasn't there a faq to this end somewhere?
I do remember certain weapons, e.g. spleash weapons, to specifically say they can't be used for precision damage.
Splash weapons can't deal sneak attack damage, but I thought Scorching Ray etc could
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Let's see if we can hunt down that FAQ =P
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SCORCHING RAY QUALIFIES FOR SNEAK ATTACK (though only one ray will get the bonus damage)
Actually THIS FAQ makes me think Theaitetos might be right? =P
Anyone else got something?
Thanks for finding this FAQ. I thought there was another one, still, but I might just misremember.
It just takes a half-elf, with Multidsciplined alternate racial trait and Bifurcated Magic to start using 3d6+3 fire damage (1d6+3 spell, +1d6 sneak, +1d6 Accomplished sneak attacker) from Produce Flame to heal their allies an average 6 damage (6.75 specifically) THREE times per casting of the spell. Your friend's Cure moderate will heal (2d8+3) 12 average compared to their 18 average.
You could do this with a Rogue/Druid/Sorcerer (level 3)
Isn't it more efficient to just use Burning Hands on your party? Same spell level as Produce Flame, doesn't require a Druid dip, and you heal everyone by (1d4 per caster level):2 [max 5d4]. No need for sneak attack dips either, and you can use a trait like Magical Lineage or Wayang Spellhunter to add Intensify metamagic and raise the max to 10d4.
And who knows, maybe if you add additional material components like Alchemist's Fire, you might even create a permanently heal-burning party?You can add cheap/free components to your elemental cantrip, as MrCharisma lined out, to up the healing amount.
Wall of Fire can even be made permanent, so you have a permanent healing wall (if you find a way to transport it, maybe a large vehicle).
Sneak attack is +1d6 per 2 levels (~1.75 per level), and dividing that by 2 for the healing means you get an additional +0.875 hitpoints healed per level on your sneak attack heal spell. That's even less than the ordinary caster level progression on cure spells.
In the end, the power is in the Phoenix bloodline arcana, not in the sneak attacks.
Isn't it more efficient to just use Burning Hands on your party? Same spell level as Produce Flame, doesn't require a Druid dip, and you heal everyone by (1d4 per caster level):2 [max 5d4]. No need for sneak attack dips either, and you can use a trait like Magical Lineage or Wayang Spellhunter to add Intensify metamagic and raise the max to 10d4.
And who knows, maybe if you add additional material components like Alchemist's Fire, you might even create a permanently heal-burning party?
No, because you can hit with Produce Flame once per Caster level. So the example character would be able to heal the listed amount three times with one casting.
He should however just be a Samsaran with Mythic past life and wouldn't have to gimp himself by taking a druid level. He could just be Rogue1/Sorcerer1 and add the Spell to his Sorcerer Spell list.
Tbh, if Arcane Tricksters could use the Phoenix Bloodline to Sneak Attack with heals, there would only be 1 Arcane Trickster build, and there would've been 1000 threads before this one about abusing Spark for endless out-of-combat healing and nigh-endless in-combat healing with exploiting every possible situation to use Burning Hands on flat-footed allies with Wayang/Lineage, MM Rods/Feats of Max/Emp Spell, Quickened Spell, and then using Echoing Spell and Pearls of Power to do this 34 times per day, and another 1000 different threads trying to make Underhanded and Sap Adept/Master somehow apply to Fire damage.
Anyone who is not reading the full rules is wrong. Either read the full rules, or don’t give false answers.
With that said, yes, sneak attack works with this. It is blatantly obvious if you read the full thing.
Speaking of condescention ...
So just to be clear, you're ok with me giving false answers provided I've read the full rules?
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I think a perfect example of how the order of precedence is supposed to go is to consider whether the SnA damage from Surprise Spells is considered "Additional Precision Damage" or is it "+ damage".
For example, if I'm an Arcane Trickster with Phoenix Bloodline, and I successfully stealth up on an unsuspecting Ogre, and then cast Scorching Ray and roll a natural 20 and confirm it, does my SnA dice get multiplied with the Scorching Ray damage? Or does my Scorching Ray damage get multiplied x2 and then SnA damage get added afterwards?
I'm 100% positive that you would roll your Scorching Ray damage twice, and THEN you would add your SnA dice roll to the result of the critical damage from Scorching Ray, and with Surprise Spells, this SnA damage would be dealt as additional precision damage as Fire damage.
From this example, it's quite clear that SnA is contingent upon a spell causing damage first before applying SnA dice.
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You don't automatically apply SnA as +damage that would be multiplied in a critical, so there's no reason to think that you would lump this in as +damage for a damage spell that has been converted to a healing spell.
No, because you can hit with Produce Flame once per Caster level. So the example character would be able to heal the listed amount three times with one casting.
Produce Flame hits just 1 person, Burning Hands can heal the entire party at once; so I think that's pretty even.
He should however just be a Samsaran with Mythic past life and wouldn't have to gimp himself by taking a druid level. He could just be Rogue1/Sorcerer1 and add the Spell to his Sorcerer Spell list.
Samsaran only allows adding spells of the same type (arcane or divine), so you can't add Druid-spells to the Sorcerer-list. And even though there should be some leeway given by GMs (e.g.: "would Sorcerers with the Psychic bloodline add arcane or psychic spells?"), I don't see how it could work for this spell.
I appreciate the... intention/indentation? xD
I think a perfect example of how the order of precedence is supposed to go is to consider whether the SnA damage from Surprise Spells is considered "Additional Precision Damage" or is it "+ damage"...
Honestly, I totally disagree with your post: it's the worst possible example. xD
For the odd reason that the Surprise Spells ability is NOT an actual sneak attack: It only uses the sneak attack dice as a damage element, but is not build on the sneak attack mechanics itself:
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
The saving throw mechanic makes it clear, that the spell doesn't even have to be an attack at all (usually damage spells that use saving throws don't use attack rolls). And neither is the range limit for sneak attacks (30 feet) a factor. This ability has nothing to do with Sneak Attack, except that it uses the amount of dice for calculation of the spell damage. It is not precision damage, and would get doubled on a critical hit or negated by a successful Evasion.
I would therefore advice to distinguish between Sneak Attack and Surprise Spells.