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I was thinking about a dualwielder gun and gun or gun and melee... And I noticed... You literally can't reload your gun without releasing the other weapon. Unless you are a level 6 drifter a feat. What pretty much sucks for everyone else. You can't adjust your grip on a one handed weapon and to reload you need a free hand. So basically you are stuck with one gun for the whole rest of the encounter. Or needing to reload and then pick up your weapons...
Did anyone else notice this problem? I am missing something?
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No, you aren't missing anything. It's a glaring issue with Gunslinger that make Drifter far less workable than it should be, and that makes the dual gun Pistolero style mentioned in the fluff text completely unusable without spending two feats on the Dual Weapon Warrior archetype.
It's pretty much the number 1 problem Gunslinger has.
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Imho thats the disadvantage of old style firearms. Its not meant to be convenient. I'm surprised they didn't use a longer reload to more accurately mimic real life reloading (i understand why tho, fun factor and all that). I think they will have other weapons listed in the final product that has more ammo capacity, ala pepperboxes or 6 shooters to facilitate a more cinematic gunslinger shooting up the place. If anything you can modify the guns presented now, having multiple barrels or a revolver style drum without too much fuss for the playtest.
Currently the problem is both subclasses were made with that in mind. So having both not able to even use the main class feature that is guns well when they both mention dual wielding is pretty bad and will lead to a poor playtest experience.
I was thinking about a dualwielder gun and gun or gun and melee... And I noticed... You literally can't reload your gun without releasing the other weapon. Unless you are a level 6 drifter a feat. What pretty much sucks for everyone else. You can't adjust your grip on a one handed weapon and to reload you need a free hand. So basically you are stuck with one gun for the whole rest of the encounter. Or needing to reload and then pick up your weapons...
Did anyone else notice this problem? I am missing something?
Quick Draw is a level 2 feat.
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Quick Draw is a level 2 feat.I was thinking about a dualwielder gun and gun or gun and melee... And I noticed... You literally can't reload your gun without releasing the other weapon. Unless you are a level 6 drifter a feat. What pretty much sucks for everyone else. You can't adjust your grip on a one handed weapon and to reload you need a free hand. So basically you are stuck with one gun for the whole rest of the encounter. Or needing to reload and then pick up your weapons...
Did anyone else notice this problem? I am missing something?
Yeah but going runeless is quite hard... I mean you can have one gun with runes using the ring but the next one will be without them.
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You quick draw your melee weapon. It still has runes on it.
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You quick draw your melee weapon. It still has runes on it.
And a dual-pistol Pistolero? One of the main class fantasies for a ton of people? This is a playtest, no reason not to change it while we can.
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You quick draw your melee weapon. It still has runes on it.
You mean reload, quickdraw blade shoot? If so that actually sounds really smart and I kind of like it.
But also only works one time, since the new rings are two weapons only... Not two groups or two types of weapon.
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Quickdraw isn't the solution IMO, because it prevents you from drawing the new weapon for any other Strike-containing-actions. If you have some "shoot two pistols at once" feat, then Quickdraw doesn't make that work.
I think the problem really is an expectation of how many rounds you think a combat is going to last. If one or two shots can kill someone, then using your second just once for a special killer move is plausible.
But PF2 doesn't work like that, it usually takes multiple hits to drop an enemy. At higher levels even the mooks have substantial amounts of hit points so the "fire this gun as an opening move" paradigm doesn't really hold up.
You could make opening moves that are more devastating but then you really need to do a lot of signaling that this ability was really only intended to be used in an opening round. Otherwise you either get people frustrated that they took an ability that they can't use as often as they expect given the opportunity cost, or people cheesing until they find a way to use it more often than intended.
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Quickdraw isn't the solution IMO, because it prevents you from drawing the new weapon for any other Strike-containing-actions. If you have some "shoot two pistols at once" feat, then Quickdraw doesn't make that work.
This is an issue with Quickdraw in general. Every other class that gets it suffers from some version of this. There seems to have been an intentional choice to not allow Quick Draw to combine with other abilities.
You quick draw your melee weapon. It still has runes on it.You mean reload, quickdraw blade shoot? If so that actually sounds really smart and I kind of like it.
But also only works one time, since the new rings are two weapons only... Not two groups or two types of weapon.
You can put your sword away before you reload again, then quickdraw it next round.
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I kinda wish they'd change quickdraw to allow drawing a weapon as part of any strike instead of being its own dedicated strike.
Would also open up an Iai style attack
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You can put your sword away before you reload again, then quickdraw it next round.You quick draw your melee weapon. It still has runes on it.You mean reload, quickdraw blade shoot? If so that actually sounds really smart and I kind of like it.
But also only works one time, since the new rings are two weapons only... Not two groups or two types of weapon.
Reloading and sheathing weapons each cost an action. A two-action penalty is too steep for melee gunslinger builds to be viable.
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Reloading and sheathing weapons each cost an action. A two-action penalty is too steep for melee gunslinger builds to be viable.You can put your sword away before you reload again, then quickdraw it next round.You quick draw your melee weapon. It still has runes on it.You mean reload, quickdraw blade shoot? If so that actually sounds really smart and I kind of like it.
But also only works one time, since the new rings are two weapons only... Not two groups or two types of weapon.
Yup stow is an action after all... Drop is free but then again no runes.
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Quickdraw isn't the solution IMO, because it prevents you from drawing the new weapon for any other Strike-containing-actions. If you have some "shoot two pistols at once" feat, then Quickdraw doesn't make that work.This is an issue with Quickdraw in general. Every other class that gets it suffers from some version of this. There seems to have been an intentional choice to not allow Quick Draw to combine with other abilities.
Yeah, but one point of difference is that quick draw is, for most classes, an opening option. You quick draw your weapon out to conserve actions, but after that you generally just fight with your weapon normally.
The fact that you have to strike is obviously worse than a free action draw, but not as big of a deal. The gunslinger is relatively unique in that weapon juggling is a much more up front and center problem it has to deal with. So in the context of the Gunslinger, Quick Draw working the way it does is a lot more oppressive and becomes a much worse solution than it is for an archer rogue or something.
Reloading and sheathing weapons each cost an action. A two-action penalty is too steep for melee gunslinger builds to be viable.You can put your sword away before you reload again, then quickdraw it next round.You quick draw your melee weapon. It still has runes on it.You mean reload, quickdraw blade shoot? If so that actually sounds really smart and I kind of like it.
But also only works one time, since the new rings are two weapons only... Not two groups or two types of weapon.
Either you use your firearm primarily, or your melee weapon. It's okay that it's hard to do both at the same time until the mid game.
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Either you use your firearm primarily, or your melee weapon. It's okay that it's hard to do both at the same time until the mid game.Reloading and sheathing weapons each cost an action. A two-action penalty is too steep for melee gunslinger builds to be viable.You can put your sword away before you reload again, then quickdraw it next round.You quick draw your melee weapon. It still has runes on it.You mean reload, quickdraw blade shoot? If so that actually sounds really smart and I kind of like it.
But also only works one time, since the new rings are two weapons only... Not two groups or two types of weapon.
Not really, people want to play a character who uses both at the same time. The Drifter is intended to allow people to play this way. It seems like there is no reason to make the playstyle so incredibly clunky until mid levels. It would be quite easy to make it playable from 1st level given it is still in playtest.
Like dual-wielding melee weapons for other classes could be made super impractical to play with until 6th level, but it's fun and a really popular playstyle so it is obviously better to allow people to do it from 1st.
What are the reasons for delaying the dual-wielding Gunslinger playstyles to later in a campaign? It's not balance reasons, so why?
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Either you use your firearm primarily, or your melee weapon. It's okay that it's hard to do both at the same time until the mid game.Reloading and sheathing weapons each cost an action. A two-action penalty is too steep for melee gunslinger builds to be viable.You can put your sword away before you reload again, then quickdraw it next round.You quick draw your melee weapon. It still has runes on it.You mean reload, quickdraw blade shoot? If so that actually sounds really smart and I kind of like it.
But also only works one time, since the new rings are two weapons only... Not two groups or two types of weapon.
Cool! Then why is all of the support for this playstyle about alternating between the two equally?
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Either you use your firearm primarily, or your melee weapon. It's okay that it's hard to do both at the same time until the mid game.Reloading and sheathing weapons each cost an action. A two-action penalty is too steep for melee gunslinger builds to be viable.You can put your sword away before you reload again, then quickdraw it next round.You quick draw your melee weapon. It still has runes on it.You mean reload, quickdraw blade shoot? If so that actually sounds really smart and I kind of like it.
But also only works one time, since the new rings are two weapons only... Not two groups or two types of weapon.
Why is it okay? Every other martial can get their intended fighting style going by level 1 or 2.
Why should Gunslingers be locked away from the very fighting style two of the three available Ways present as a core option either for an arbitrary length of time (for Drifter) or forever (for sword+gun and dual gun Pistolero)?
How about a feat that lets you reload the fire arm without the free hand. hold it under your arm pit and reload. It would probably be awkward but characters are suppose to get pretty fantastical at later level.
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How about a feat that lets you reload the fire arm without the free hand. hold it under your arm pit and reload. It would probably be awkward but characters are suppose to get pretty fantastical at later level.
Such a feat already exists (Two-weapon Reload for the Dual Weapon Warrior), but I really think Gunslinger should get it as a baseline. It is necessary for one of the Ways, and extremely useful for another of the Ways. I don't think having a feat that close to 2/3rd of all Gunslingers have to pick if they want their advertised fighting style to function is a good idea. 2e was supposed to move away from mandatory feats to fix problems that shouldn't be problems in the first place.
How about a feat that lets you reload the fire arm without the free hand. hold it under your arm pit and reload. It would probably be awkward but characters are suppose to get pretty fantastical at later level.Such a feat already exists (Two-weapon Reload for the Dual Weapon Warrior), but I really think Gunslinger should get it as a baseline. It is necessary for one of the Ways, and extremely useful for another of the Ways. I don't think having a feat that close to 2/3rd of all Gunslingers have to pick if they want their advertised fighting style to function is a good idea. 2e was supposed to move away from mandatory feats to fix problems that shouldn't be problems in the first place.
I wouldn't even say baseline but at least as a level 1 option or at least something similar to it. Because not being able to use it as a drifter really sucks, pistoleros can probably be given something else to compensate.
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How about a feat that lets you reload the fire arm without the free hand. hold it under your arm pit and reload. It would probably be awkward but characters are suppose to get pretty fantastical at later level.Such a feat already exists (Two-weapon Reload for the Dual Weapon Warrior), but I really think Gunslinger should get it as a baseline. It is necessary for one of the Ways, and extremely useful for another of the Ways. I don't think having a feat that close to 2/3rd of all Gunslingers have to pick if they want their advertised fighting style to function is a good idea. 2e was supposed to move away from mandatory feats to fix problems that shouldn't be problems in the first place.
it's also feelbad to not at all use a class feature, I'd make it a free feat for 2 of the ways and give sniper a free feat of their own. Basically the same thing but less feelbad.
it's also feelbad to not at all use a class feature, I'd make it a free feat for 2 of the ways and give sniper a free feat of their own. Basically the same thing but less feelbad.How about a feat that lets you reload the fire arm without the free hand. hold it under your arm pit and reload. It would probably be awkward but characters are suppose to get pretty fantastical at later level.Such a feat already exists (Two-weapon Reload for the Dual Weapon Warrior), but I really think Gunslinger should get it as a baseline. It is necessary for one of the Ways, and extremely useful for another of the Ways. I don't think having a feat that close to 2/3rd of all Gunslingers have to pick if they want their advertised fighting style to function is a good idea. 2e was supposed to move away from mandatory feats to fix problems that shouldn't be problems in the first place.
Remember, free feats are still feats, and feats are available for multiclassing. So my question is should you be able do do this if you’re only multiclassing? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, just posing the question. If it’s something multiclassing should have access to then I think you’re on the right path with the way granting a free level 1 feat.
Remember, free feats are still feats, and feats are available for multiclassing. So my question is should you be able do do this if you’re only multiclassing? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, just posing the question. If it’s something multiclassing should have access to then I think you’re on the right path with the way granting a free level 1 feat.it's also feelbad to not at all use a class feature, I'd make it a free feat for 2 of the ways and give sniper a free feat of their own. Basically the same thing but less feelbad.How about a feat that lets you reload the fire arm without the free hand. hold it under your arm pit and reload. It would probably be awkward but characters are suppose to get pretty fantastical at later level.Such a feat already exists (Two-weapon Reload for the Dual Weapon Warrior), but I really think Gunslinger should get it as a baseline. It is necessary for one of the Ways, and extremely useful for another of the Ways. I don't think having a feat that close to 2/3rd of all Gunslingers have to pick if they want their advertised fighting style to function is a good idea. 2e was supposed to move away from mandatory feats to fix problems that shouldn't be problems in the first place.
that's true but giving an alternative to DWW to get the feat is a good thing too. You'd be getting it at lvl 4 just the same.
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The real problem with dual wielding is the action cost of reloading. Even if there were no problems reloading with your hands full whatsoever, it would still be a terrible idea to actually do because of what it would cost you action-wise. For example, Paired Shots at the moment has an effective action cost of 4, which is absurd considering what you get for your time.
Until or unless there are firearms with magazines of some kind, using two guns is frankly madness.
Until or unless there are firearms with magazines of some kind, using two guns is frankly madness.
You might not be wrong, if that’s the case I’d want to see more than one ‘way’ for single gun users.
The real problem with dual wielding is the action cost of reloading. Even if there were no problems reloading with your hands full whatsoever, it would still be a terrible idea to actually do because of what it would cost you action-wise. For example, Paired Shots at the moment has an effective action cost of 4, which is absurd considering what you get for your time.
Until or unless there are firearms with magazines of some kind, using two guns is frankly madness.
What is worrisome is that none of the guns presented gave us the option. If they released one gun with magazines as well, then it would've been far easier to work with it. Even a gun with more barrels or something.
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I'm honestly fine if two-pistol gunslingers are suboptimal, since shooting with your non-dominant hand/eye is really hard! These are "one shot and reload" style guns, everybody is going to want to maximize their chance of hitting!
I'm personally more of a fan of "brace of pistols" than "I am able to reload the thing in 2 seconds" anyway.
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Can i just say that post around the forum kind of changed my mind, we don't need free reloads IMO, we need ways to make reload interesting. Just like the level 6 feat from the gunslinger we need small feats that let a class reload and hold weapons or that make reload interesting and fun instead of removing the action.
Juggle is an exemple that can help.
Can i just say that post around the forum kind of changed my mind, we don't need free reloads IMO, we need ways to make reload interesting. Just like the level 6 feat from the gunslinger we need small feats that let a class reload and hold weapons or that make reload interesting and fun instead of removing the action.
Juggle is an exemple that can help.
Yeah, like a two-action activity that lets you reload two weapons in your hands.
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I'm honestly fine if two-pistol gunslingers are suboptimal, since shooting with your non-dominant hand/eye is really hard! These are "one shot and reload" style guns, everybody is going to want to maximize their chance of hitting!
I'm personally more of a fan of "brace of pistols" than "I am able to reload the thing in 2 seconds" anyway.
If dual-wielding pistols is supposed to be bad then there shouldn't be feats that support it. I would personally be quite content if the "right way" to play a full ranged Pistolero is just one pistol with a free hand since I don't really care all that much for dual wielding, but a lot of people do like that playstyle and would naturally get excited to see there are feats that support it.
If we can't give them what they actually want we may as well not deceive them.
Brace of pistols is the silliest idea of them all though and is what you get when you forget that Pathfinder is still supposed to be a game.
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Brace of pistols is an actual historical thing! Blackbeard (Edward Teach) carried six of them, and it's fine in the game considering that quick draw is a thing!
But I would prefer if the Pistolero did not strongly imply "you should be using two guns at once" with the level 15 ability.
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I am fully aware it is a historical thing, people have been reminding us of it constantly. Being historical doesn't make it any less silly in the context of a game with wealth-by-level guidelines and a need to make your weapons magic. A PF2 character can't afford six dueling pistols like Blackbeard until third level, and that's assuming they have bought virtually nothing else with their money.
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You probably shouldn't be able to be Blackbeard until like 9th level anyway.
The "need to make your weapons magic" is solved by a magic item that shares one set of runes between a number of different items when you draw one from that container. I don't just want this for guns, I want this for throwing weapons too! I like "my bandolier makes my throwing knives magic" much more than "my throwing knives magically return to my hand".
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I agree! Then maybe we shouldn't be balancing the entire class around the assumption that all gunslingers are capable of emulating a guy who had an absurd amount of money and could afford to just toss his guns on the floor when he was done with them.
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You probably shouldn't be able to be Blackbeard until like 9th level anyway.
Blackbeard? Probably not (although I'd say more like level 4 or 5 at the most)
But fundamental combat styles should come online a soon as possible. Someone shouldn't have to wait half the game just to play the style of character the set out to.
At what level does the Pistolero start benefiting from "having two guns"? By my count it's about 4th anyway.
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At what level does the Pistolero start benefiting from "having two guns"? By my count it's about 4th anyway.
Depends on the build. Remember this conversation matters for melee pistoleros too, another build that people have been swearing by the brace playstyle for. If you've got a sword in your offhand then this is an issue right from level one.
What is worrisome is that none of the guns presented gave us the option. If they released one gun with magazines as well, then it would've been far easier to work with it. Even a gun with more barrels or something.The real problem with dual wielding is the action cost of reloading. Even if there were no problems reloading with your hands full whatsoever, it would still be a terrible idea to actually do because of what it would cost you action-wise. For example, Paired Shots at the moment has an effective action cost of 4, which is absurd considering what you get for your time.
Until or unless there are firearms with magazines of some kind, using two guns is frankly madness.
The thought crossed my mind too. In 1e we had a few weapons that had two barrels. Now those would probably be covered in one reload action. (since you are fidgeting in the reload area anyway might as well insert two bullets, not much more work) which would give us a feeling for multi barrel/magazine guns
but I agree that we need more interesting reload options and/or dual reload options
I also support the notion that a gunslinger who's whole schtick is revolving about a small group of weapons probably sooner or later finds out for himself/herself how to reload a gun (or handcrossbow) not needing a hand free
Sidenote - I also realized that reloading works very good in concert with the bastion archetype which learns to have their shield hand free
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The only issue that should definitely be avoided is the trivialization of reloading. PF1e had this issue and it became a nightmare, once the Gunslinger achieved reload as a free action, basically doing away with the gun's main drawback.
One thing I would like to see are guns that don't follow real world weapons. This way, they could be balanced first and foremost mechanically and just loosely attaining themselves with some gun expectations.
Has anyone here played the Metro series? 2033 and Last Light? While that series feature some real guns, one of the most interesting aspects of that world is how guns had to adapt, due to a lack of factories, materials and knowledge. I think it would be interesting if the devs decided to make an approach of "How would firearms have evolved in Golarion?".
This way they could have guns having an "early" firearms feel, while having some conveniences that significantly smooths the gameplay without having to attain to some kind of expectation because they existed in our world.
Would being able to reload with a reaction be a viable option?
Yes, but not as an direct mechanic of spending your reaction to reload. But applying it to reactions like Hit The Dirt and similar seems a pretty cool idea, because your gunslinger will be reacting to danger while also not wasting time in getting ready to shoot back.
I don't mind the reloading itself but I think, especially for gunslingers themselves, if they just skip that part it wouldnt be too bad
but I am too mroe for giving intersting reload options like combining actions or minor actions at the same time then a realod (running reload is certainly a good start but we need more)
You probably shouldn't be able to be Blackbeard until like 9th level anyway.Blackbeard? Probably not (although I'd say more like level 4 or 5 at the most)
But fundamental combat styles should come online a soon as possible. Someone shouldn't have to wait half the game just to play the style of character the set out to.
*Angry PF1 Bomber Alchemist Noises*