I've never seen such a low gold game.
i am a level 9 cleric with Honor and Fire domains, the value of my inventory is about 9K GP's.
The campaign is homebrew
i ain't got a Wisdom band and no magic item in general because i got no GP's (i've been VERY naive i know)
The encounters the DM throws at us are embarassing, they either TPK without a plot armor or are way too easy
His problem is that he doesn't know how to balance out monsters according to our wealth, our best tank is our cavalier (22 AC) and it is too low considering that our enemies are CL 9 and above.
So he resorted to throw at us 5 CL monsters or less so we don't die, but the spellcasters just use them to mop up the floor and kill them almost istantly with a fireball
What advice can i give to him?
What can i do to improve the economy?
EDIT: The only think i can think is to combine spells, which are independent from the GP's and hope for the best
Side note: He told me that craft feats will be useless because i will have no time to craft items
Two relatively easy and quick solutions:
Use the automatic bonus progression rules, which obviate the need for constant stat, armor, and weapon bonuses and the like: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automati c-bonus-progression/
Get you geared up properly quickly, either via an easy encounter with extra loot or a plot device like a patron
Explain that the game is balanced around having certain amount of wealth at certain levels.
A monsters cr takes into account the fact the players have at least most of the standard WBL and if they don't encounters are significantly harder.
Maybe show them the automatic bonus progression rules.
this is one of the reasons why I hate Home brew. Most GM's don't know enough about the game to create well written, balanced, level appropriate encounters. my advice is to start over with 1st level characters and have your GM run one of the prewritten Adventure Paths.
I play with a similar GM. The root of the problem is: He is overwhelmed by the amount and complexity of rules. So he feels out of control. Hence he is stingy with XP and magic items - as well as rough with encounter difficulty.
I recommended E6 to him for next campaign: Level is capped to 6, players only gain wealth and single feats afterwards. He wasn't openminded about it, but I still think it's a good idea for such GMs.
But I guess you want to keep your level 9 cleric. He could use automatic bonus progression - these rules are optional but official. This way he doesn't have to bother much with items and you people get serious bonuses. The bonuses you get replace half of the normal wealth, so you are still supposed to get some more stuff.
- my initial answer, addressing the O.P. at length got lost in the warp and I don't have time to rewrite it all for now -
In short, talk to your G.M. Your problem doesn't lie with the gear in the least bit but in the combat encounters. Also, how do encounters outside of combat go?
TxSam88 wrote: Most GM's don't know enough about the game to create well written, balanced, level appropriate encounters. Your inference from anecdotal evidence is weak, your statement is too broad. Most G.M. I've played with have a good idea of what they are doing, with the diegesis as well as with the system.
Agénor wrote: - my initial answer, addressing the O.P. at length got lost in the warp and I don't have time to rewrite it all for now -
In short, talk to your G.M. Your problem doesn't lie with the gear in the least bit but in the combat encounters. Also, how do encounters outside of combat go?
TxSam88 wrote: Most GM's don't know enough about the game to create well written, balanced, level appropriate encounters. Your inference from anecdotal evidence is weak, your statement is too broad. Most G.M. I've played with have a good idea of what they are doing, with the diegesis as well as with the system.
I've played since 1983, even done some work for WOTC, played at multiple conventions as well as in multiple countries, while there are some great GMs out there, most players and GM's have barely cracked open a rulebook, much less taken the time to read one cover to cover. While I've seen some great homebrew adventures that are very well written, balanced and written thorough enough to account for most issues, those are most certainly the exception to the rule. The vast majority of GMs out there are just doing things ad hoc and have very little clue how to make things balanced, enjoyable and level appropriate.
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TxSam88 wrote: Agénor wrote: - my initial answer, addressing the O.P. at length got lost in the warp and I don't have time to rewrite it all for now -
In short, talk to your G.M. Your problem doesn't lie with the gear in the least bit but in the combat encounters. Also, how do encounters outside of combat go?
TxSam88 wrote: Most GM's don't know enough about the game to create well written, balanced, level appropriate encounters. Your inference from anecdotal evidence is weak, your statement is too broad. Most G.M. I've played with have a good idea of what they are doing, with the diegesis as well as with the system.
I've played since 1983, even done some work for WOTC, played at multiple conventions as well as in multiple countries, while there are some great GMs out there, most players and GM's have barely cracked open a rulebook, much less taken the time to read one cover to cover. While I've seen some great homebrew adventures that are very well written, balanced and written thorough enough to account for most issues, those are most certainly the exception to the rule. The vast majority of GMs out there are just doing things ad hoc and have very little clue how to make things balanced, enjoyable and level appropriate.
In this case you're right, he didn't read the book at all.
He didn't even know what metamagic is or the immediate action rules.
He calls me a rule lawyer and a min maxer because i take the right feats and read and understand the rules.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/
I showed him this very simple table for the character wealth and explained him that CR is based also on the PC equipment and he said "i don't care, my campaign is low gold" and that's it.
i tried to explain him that a Newbie DM can't really balance encounters just using his istinct, he needs a guideline but he refuses to follow any.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGj BMDg/edit
I gave him this guide so he could understand what i meant, but i bet he didn't read it since we had to face a badly nerfed Shoggoth that caused a TPK (we were level 7 at the time)
If i were him i would have just used a different system because it doesn't match his GM'ing style
Pathfinder unfortunately relies a lot rules, there is a rule basically for everything and that's why he struggles when balancing combat encounters.
The story he's telling is not something huge, mythic, unique but he manages to make it good through narration,details and acting.
But when it comes to a combat ESPECIALLY against a boss it is always either TPK or plot armor because he struggles to balance it.
The fact that he refuses to collaborate with other people, seeking guidance demonstrates that he's not made for GM'ing with pathfinder system.
Ferka wrote: Two relatively easy and quick solutions:
Use the automatic bonus progression rules, which obviate the need for constant stat, armor, and weapon bonuses and the like: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automati c-bonus-progression/
Get you geared up properly quickly, either via an easy encounter with extra loot or a plot device like a patron
i will try to propose him the bonus progression rules, it is easier to mantain and maybe he's more willing than just handing out thousands of GP's all of sudden.
Agénor wrote: - my initial answer, addressing the O.P. at length got lost in the warp and I don't have time to rewrite it all for now -
In short, talk to your G.M. Your problem doesn't lie with the gear in the least bit but in the combat encounters. Also, how do encounters outside of combat go?
TxSam88 wrote: Most GM's don't know enough about the game to create well written, balanced, level appropriate encounters. Your inference from anecdotal evidence is weak, your statement is too broad. Most G.M. I've played with have a good idea of what they are doing, with the diegesis as well as with the system.
As i said to TXSAM88 the "not combat" encounters are good usually, he has problem in the "combat" part of pathfinder and that's it, the story may not be something of epic proportion but through narration he managed to keep us guessing and curious, which is the most important thing.
He has a few annoying fixations but he's not bad in this side
Accept the challenge, and play your best.
Get one of the other players--this could be you--to take lots of ranks in Appraise, and scour the world for everything, EVERYTHING that could be of any value.
Build your characters around features that do not require equipment.
What happens when you let any NPCs hold onto valuable items or money for you? Does the GM always steal it from you?
Pathfinder is rules-heavy, it is more of a fantasy-combat simulator than a role-playing game. The fine-grain scaling of levels, class/monster abilities, H.P., hit chance, damage, saves.... All those mechanics are heavy of meaning, Pathfinder is close to a video-game in that they respect.
As such, Pathfinder isn't among the most appropriate games for what your G.M. is doing. There are other Sword and Sorcery games that would suit him much better, WFRP or Symbaroum are good examples, games without such a strong straightjacket as character class altogether but with X.P. to be spent by the player in the area where mechanical character growth is most wanted.
TxSam88 wrote: I've played since 1983, even done some work for WOTC, played at multiple conventions as well as in multiple countries, while there are some great GMs out there, most players and GM's have barely cracked open a rulebook, much less taken the time to read one cover to cover. While I've seen some great homebrew adventures that are very well written, balanced and written thorough enough to account for most issues, those are most certainly the exception to the rule. What is this? Flexing role-playing muscles?
I am sorry you've had such a poor experience as a player. Your personal experience still doesn't make your words inherently superior to that of another.
TxSam88 wrote: The vast majority of GMs out there are just doing things ad hoc and have very little clue how to make things balanced, enjoyable and level appropriate. At any rate, it still is anecdotal evidence to support your statement that most G.M. don't know how to create good encounters. Since «That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.», you are wrong or as Wikipedia would put it, [citation needed].
Pootisman wrote: As i said to TXSAM88 the "not combat" encounters are good usually, he has problem in the "combat" part of pathfinder and that's it Does he actually like the combat part? Because if not, he could reduce the amount of battles, in favor of more noncombat encounters. Would be an improvement for both him and you players...
Get together with all the other players in your game sans GM and discuss. Come up with a solution. Then bring the GM in and tell them here's what's wrong and how we want to fix things. We decided the game would be better with automatic bonus progression. This way you can continue running as you have, the abp rules will take care of the lack of treasure to keep the game numbers balanced, and we'll all have more fun. (or whatever solution your group comes up with).
Then compromise if need be, but do it collectively, with everyone at the table getting a say. This is not your game, this is our game. An rpg is a collective experience, wherein everyone at the table has a say in how it is played. Everyone has to buy in and accept the conceits, constraints, and rules for the game to function. If the rules you are using only work for 1 out of 7 players, then something is wrong and should be changed. The GM is not dictator. The GM does need to listen to everyone else too. You can find a way to make things enjoyable for everyone.
I played in a low magic, low treasure game recently, where we didn't use abp, just standard rules. The GM, however, understood the rules and altered things accordingly. He would only use enemies that were of lower CR than us. So like at level 4 we might face an encounter of 1600xp (EL5), but the enemies would be mostly cr 1/2 or 1, with one cr2 boss. It worked out fairly well. There are multiple solutions, abp is just one that would require zero effort or change on your GM's part, so it's an easy one to propose.
I think I have read somewhere that a character level n with only mundane gear, rather than magic gear of value approximately WBL, is of a power comparable to a character level n-1.
From there, adjusting the encounters is easy enough.
However, it seems the Game Master has only little grasp over Pathfinder combat between the party and monsters. A few +1 or +2 here and there that ABP would bring wouldn't solve much. The issue lies with the G.M. making the effort of undertaking reading Pathfinder then coming back to his table and being open about what he modifies. Him justifying the way he runs things with «low gold/few magic items» is inconsistent with what O.P. describes as «embarrassing, either TPK or cake walk».
One should understand before one modifies so that the modifications make sense with the bulk of the corpus.
A good way to balance encounters on the fly is through the use of monster reinforcements. If the party is struggling, they can arrive late, or not at all.
You may be doing this already, but make sure you're making good use of long duration buff spells spells like Greater Magic Weapon, and to a lesser extent, Magic Vestment. Threefold Aspect is particularly good for spellcasters that happen to have access to it.
Game Mastering is a strange skill set. Being mathematically savvy and theatrically sensitive is a hard enough balance to strike, but then there's the social dynamic of this community on top of it all.
TxSam88's experience sounds very similar to mine. Most of the GM's I've known had a tenuous grasp on what their role involved, at best.
There really seems to be this stigma around GM'inging (based on my personal observations, of course) where it's unacceptable or shameful to ask for help, because that would be admitting that you aren't already great at it.
The Angry GM easily and clearly defines *what* running a game actually entails and *how* to do it well. I can't recommend his stuff enough.
I don't do AP's; they miss the main draw of ttrpg's, for me. But starting out? Use one. A shortone. With pre-made characters. That should take a huge amount of pressure off the GM.
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Pootisman wrote: I've never seen such a low gold game.
i am a level 9 cleric with Honor and Fire domains, the value of my inventory is about 9K GP's.
The campaign is homebrew
i ain't got a Wisdom band and no magic item in general because i got no GP's (i've been VERY naive i know)
The encounters the DM throws at us are embarassing, they either TPK without a plot armor or are way too easy
His problem is that he doesn't know how to balance out monsters according to our wealth, our best tank is our cavalier (22 AC) and it is too low considering that our enemies are CL 9 and above.
So he resorted to throw at us 5 CL monsters or less so we don't die, but the spellcasters just use them to mop up the floor and kill them almost instantly with a fireball
What advice can i give to him?
What can i do to improve the economy?
EDIT: The only think i can think is to combine spells, which are independent from the GP's and hope for the best
Side note: He told me that craft feats will be useless because i will have no time to craft items
It's okay to run a low magic/low wealth campaign. I'm guessing the campaign was billed as such, though probably not much of explanation of what that entailed. The problem is, the GM has to know how to balance that level of systematic change with his encounters. A lot of monsters straight up can't be overcome without the proper magical gear to beat them. It's also not too big of an issue that he advises you not to take crafting feats, as it makes sense you wont have time/money to use it. Really, at least he's told you not to waste the feat.
If you mostly fight humanoids and they suffer the same problems then you should at least be on equal footing.
It's too bad you didn't make an Inquisitor instead. All the self buffing that Inquisitor can do, including using spells to make up for the lack of magic weapons/armor. It wouldn't completely fix your problem, but you'd definitely be better off.
Honestly, if your GM wont listen to the feedback that he isn't doing a good job with game balance then all you can do is quit. A GM that can't take the criticism of "I'm not having fun because X" just isn't being a good GM. The GMs goal should be to create a fun game. If the players aren't having fun then they've failed.
Agénor wrote: I think I have read somewhere that a character level n with only mundane gear, rather than magic gear of value approximately WBL, is of a power comparable to a character level n-1.
From there, adjusting the encounters is easy enough.
There's no good measure of what APL a party without magic gear would be. NPC wealth makes you CR-1. A party without access to Magic Weapon who fights a Ghost may as well be CR Infinity. If you have a carefully crafted party where everyone understands that no wealth will be the case(and has the system mastery to do it), then you MIGHT be able to get back to CR-1.
Agenor wrote:
Your inference from anecdotal evidence is weak, your statement is too broad. Most G.M. I've played with have a good idea of what they are doing, with the diegesis as well as with the system.
I'll third him and Quixote. Most people don't play Pathfinder as it is written to be played. They play Pathfinder with all kinds of strange rules interpretations and house rules that mess with the balance of the game. This is pretty quick to see if you spend any time in the Rules forum. Even in PFS, you'll see differences in play. Some DMs hide their rolls. Some DMs fudge dice. Some DMs need every encounter to be a life-threatening one. Some DMs don't track the HP of the enemies at all and just end the encounter when it feels right. Some DMs say the BBEG passes every save or die you throw at them automatically. Some DMs have the party attacked every night without fail.
More on Topic:
So yeah, how do we play in a situation where Wealth is poor? If class choice was still an option, I'd be an Alchemist and churn out potions. As a Cleric, I would still pick up Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll so I could make some oils and potions for the party. You'll want to dump some skill ranks in there so you can accelerated craft too. This means you can craft 1st level potions and 1st/2nd level scrolls in 1 hour.
Even if adventuring, a crafter can still get 2 hours of progress a day on crafting. With accelerated crafting, that gets bumped up to 4 so you can get a 2nd/3rd potion or Scroll 3rd/4th at the end of the 2nd day.
Low wealth will favor casters over melee and ranged combat builds alot. This is your problem.
Adress this and get the GM to use reinforcements as earlier mentioned.
Rule-vise consider Savage World instead of Pathfinder. It is lesser rules heavy.
Pootisman wrote: What advice can i give to him?
...
I showed him this very simple table for the character wealth and explained him that CR is based also on the PC equipment and he said "i don't care, my campaign is low gold" and that's it.
i tried to explain him that a Newbie DM can't really balance encounters just using his instinct, he needs a guideline but he refuses to follow any.
I doubt he'd take any advice.
You should probably be GMing the game yourself.
In a situation like this the only one who can fix the problem is the GM. The first thing that he needs to do to fix the problem is to realize there is a problem. If you want to try and help fix the problem you are going to have to approach the GM in a way that put him on the defensive. Telling him that as a newbie GM he can’t do something is only going to make him dig in further. If the GM has an idea of the type of game he wants to run shooting that down is not going to go well. The way I see it you have two problems. The first is how to fix the campaign in a manner that the GM is open to. The second is how to approach him about implementing the fix.
The best solution to the first question is probably going to be the auto bonus progression. This actually works pretty well. I use it in the campaigns I run because I don’t like the emphasis on killing monsters for their loot. Monsters should be killed because they are monsters, not just to get their treasure. The normal auto bonus progression rules are designed to remove the big six so that the remaining magic items can be thing the players would normally pass up in favor of the big six. Now instead of saving the cloak slot for a cloak of protection you can get a cloak of elven kind. But if the GM wants to run a game with almost no magic items there is an option that grants the bonuses as if they were two levels higher than the normal auto bonus progression. That seems perfect for the campaign you are in.
Now the hard part, how to convince your GM to adopt those rules. Since he is insistent on keeping things low gold, don’t bother trying to change that. But suggesting the ABP as a way to keep things low gold may go over better. Pointing out to him that it would give him more freedom to design encounters because they players are better able to handle the challenges he can use would be better than criticizing what he has done. Let him know what you enjoy about the campaign, but tell him that there are somethings that bother you.
If that fails and you are not having fun you may need to invoke the nuclear option. Talk to your fellow players and see if they are in agreement with you. If they are then approach the GM as a group and let him know that you guys are not enjoying the campaign and what your problems are. If he still does nothing about it start a new campaign with a new GM.
Agénor wrote:
What is this? Flexing role-playing muscles?
I am sorry you've had such a poor experience as a player. Your personal experience still doesn't make your words inherently superior to that of another.
When you don't have data/evidence you can use to prove a point, you then rely on people who have experienced the situations in question. What I listed could be the equivalent to credentials. In the same way you wouldn't give any weight to the opinion of someone who had never played the game at all, you should give weight to the opinion of someone who has played the game extensively. Not a flex, just listing my experiences so that you can understand that I have been involved long enough to have a decently informed opinion.
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TxSam88 wrote: When you don't have data/evidence you can use to prove a point, you then rely on people who have experienced the situations in question. When one doesn't have reliable data, one doesn't make strong affirmative statements as if they were self-evident truths.
Literally, you don't know enough hence you don't know. You didn't state an opinion or a personal experience, you've stated a fact. You didn't leave open the possibility of someone answering «Well, I've had a different experience.» but left open the possible answer of «No, TxSam88, you are wrong.»
When you don't have evidence to prove a point, you can't prove it.
Pootisman wrote: In this case you're right, he didn't read the book at all.
He didn't even know what metamagic is or the immediate action rules.
Well then, what game was he running?
Pootisman wrote: He calls me a rule lawyer and a min maxer because i take the right feats and read and understand the rules. Not Pathfinder. Nothing D20. D20 is the most baroque gaming system there is, and Pathfinder is the most baroque version of D20 there is! If you don't like min-maxing, rules-lawyering players, then don't play Pathfinder. The game is obviously designed to be exploited through system mastery.
Pootisman wrote: I showed him this very simple table for the character wealth and explained him that CR is based also on the PC equipment and he said "i don't care, my campaign is low gold" and that's it. I hope you didn't show him the Wealth based on level chart at his gaming table! Most GMs don't appreciate being challenged at their tables. You should restrict table-challenges to things that are crucial to the gaming experience in the moment, and you should be brief, stopping when you think you have been heard.
It's fine to point out to your GM that he is going against guidelines, but it's also fine for your GM to go against the guidelines. It's also fine if he intentionally makes things hard on you.
Pootisman wrote: i tried to explain him that a Newbie DM can't really balance encounters just using his instinct, he needs a guideline but he refuses to follow any. That argument is terrible even if it is true. He can't create balanced encounters unless you let him, and balance is overrated.
Is he creating fun encounters?
Pootisman wrote: The encounters the DM throws at us are embarrassing, they either TPK without a plot armor or are way too easy...
So he resorted to throw at us 5 CL monsters or less so we don't die, but the spellcasters just use them to mop up the floor and kill them almost instantly with a fireball
These are your good arguments. Your combats are all catastrophic: catastrophically easy or catastrophically difficult.
Pootisman wrote: What advice can i give to him? Not much. You have observed to him that he has elected to go against the guidelines for wealth-based on level, and you seem to have communicated that his combats all end catastrophically, for one side or the other, and none of the combats are balanced, and that seems to be a direct result of his decision to go against the guidelines.
Plot Armor is not necessarily a bad thing. Lots of combats are more like puzzles to solve. That can be fine, even incredible.
I think there are 2 problems here. There may be a disconnect of expectations, and your GM hasn't found his sea legs, yet. In both cases, you need to do some soul-searching. Ask the GM what kind of experience he wants you to have, and ask yourself if you have the patience to let him learn how to give that to you?
Pootisman wrote: What can i do to improve the economy? I've pretty much given you this advice already. Engage with his world, and exploit every opportunity to strip every encounter of everything of any conceivable value. When you get past the heavy, carved-oaken doors and go into the room with the beautiful marble statue. Did you remove those doors from the hinges? Did you take down the marble statue and bring that home to sell? I'm guessing the answer to that is "no."
Surely your characters have sufficient ranks in Knowledge and Appraise to recognize when you kill or capture a monster which body parts have a good market value: the skins of this, the brains of that, the heart of the other? If you capture a camp of bandits, are you collecting the equipment? What about the livestock? Are you getting that?
When your party goes to a town, take a survey of the items for sale, and which items are the really big ticket items. Look for those items as you adventure.
If he complains about your gaming style, explain to him that you are just trying to survive in the world he created. If he complains about you being a rules-lawyering jerk, then then explain to him that this is Pathfinder, and if he doesn't like rules-lawyering, maybe he should play a nice game of Connect Four.
He shouldn't complain, though. You'll be communicating what you want without any complaining, but by giving him what he wants: a player engaging with his game world.
Agénor wrote: TxSam88 wrote: When you don't have data/evidence you can use to prove a point, you then rely on people who have experienced the situations in question. When one doesn't have reliable data, one doesn't make strong affirmative statements as if they were self-evident truths.
Literally, you don't know enough hence you don't know. You didn't state an opinion or a personal experience, you've stated a fact. You didn't leave open the possibility of someone answering «Well, I've had a different experience.» but left open the possible answer of «No, TxSam88, you are wrong.»
When you don't have evidence to prove a point, you can't prove it. ever been on a jury before? Quite often things are decided upon purely based upon someone's word and their credentials are how you decide on how much weight their word has.
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And judiciary truth often has nothing to do with reality.
Ever done science before?^^
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I mean, obviously talk to your GM first. I know you say they are unlikely to take advice, but exhaust this option anyway to ensure that you did everything you could.
To piggy back on Scotty Dubs' statement about exploiting what IS there... here are some tips:
1. Mending, Prestidigitation and Make Whole: these spells, especially by level 9, can potentially turn old, rusty or broken gear into yours in 10 minutes. You can also use that gear for barter, trade or sale on the road or in settlements.
2. Use your skills: Knowledge: Nature, Profession: Herbalist, Survival and so on can be used in the wilds to find resources. Other skills might get valuable substances or "trophies" off of monsters. IF your GM allows these, and that's a big IF considering the way you're describing this person, this can be a revenue source.
3. Scribe Scroll: I get it; the GM says no item creation. Remind them however that a scroll costing under 1000 GP can be made in 2 hours Downtime, even in the midst of an adventure, so long as the money can be spent for the materials. See if your GM will allow you to pre-pay in a settlement for the materials and then just scribe scrolls with buff spells as you adventure.
4. Sell your knowledge: if the road of adventure has you CONSTANTLY on the move, I'm guessing your PCs are picking up a lot of lore - monster anatomies, dungeon layouts, demons' true names, whatever. Start telling your GM that you're writing it all down, making maps, and so on, then start selling this lore to other adventurers/NPC along the way
5. Look for the merchants EVERYWHERE: your GM makes good non-combat encounters, right? What resources do these NPCs have? Start looking at ways to make deals with them in the course of a non-combat encounter. You don't have a lot of magic or GP, I get that, but you have a unique set of skills and abilities. See if you can hire out your services to NPCs for their resources; this doesn't have to involve money or magic items. Could be that by doing some chore for a bunch of fey, they in turn show you a secret path to avoid several encounters, or they put a fairy spell on you that wards you against evil for 24 hours or something.
Another part of #5 is to look for merchants in places they wouldn't normally exist. Talk to intelligent monsters in dungeons and see if you can trade with them; barter with magical beasts for information or services; use divination spells to contact extraplanar creatures for aid beyond simply summoning them to a fight. Really maximize your interaction with sentient NPCs in the game, even if they're evil, unless doing so would put you and your party in danger.
6. Figure out EVERYTHING your GM will allow you to cast Permanency on: the spell specifically calls out certain things you can put on yourself, an object or an area, but at the very end it leaves the door open to other applications with the GM's approval. See if there are any other spells your GM will allow you to permanize in this way and what that would cost you.
As for surviving fights with little to no gear, any prepared full caster is going to be superior in these situations. Your character is a Cleric with a couple fireballs of his own each day, but besides that and your aura of Sanctuary from the Glory (Honor) domain, you're a weapon-based 3/4 BAB attacker. The reality is that many combat rounds for you will involve missing with your attacks.
This in turn means your party REALLY needs to maximize its recon and intel gathering skills and abilities. Setting up base camps and scouting the area, sneaking ahead to spot enemies, using spells like Divination, Lesser Planar Ally or Glimpse the Truth and so on. If you have forewarning you might be able to have the RIGHT buffs already running BEFORE you hit that encounter, increasing your chances of success.
You might also start putting ranks into Stealth, even if it's not a Class skill for you, and relying HARD on the spell Sanctuary or others like it to help mask your presence from your foes. In a low gear setting, running away from fights is often a very sound defense. Now that your arcane full casters have 4th level spells, 2nd level spells like Invisibility can be doled out for a nice long escape montage.
Find ways to exploit any permanent abilities your characters possess. Your PC, for example, currently has Fire Resist 10 from the Fire domain. Any melee fight you get the chance, your character should be smashing himself or his square with flaming oil or a flask of Alchemist's Fire. The substance deals only a maximum of 6 Fire damage so you can ignore it, but if the monster you're fighting is susceptible that means you're upping your DPR. If other PCs have similar abilities, weaponize them.
Last but not least, and I can't stress this enough... make friends and allies, then bring them WITH you. Hirelings, Cohorts, Contacts or just friendly NPCs - any of these folks could be trailing around with your party and making things for the heroes while you're fighting.
A lowly NG Human Expert 1 likely has a skill you can put to use (Craft, Profession and so on) with a +7. Use a spell to make a masterwork tool or kit for that NPC using, say, Rags to Riches and for a short time that Expert has a +11 on their checks. Using Make Whole, Greater Make Whole or Fabricate spells you can easily turn found objects or enemy gear into raw materials.
If that simple Expert then survives by your sides long enough to pick up ONE more NPC level, spend the gold to retrain their level 1 feat to Scribe Scroll and give them 1 level of Adept. Now they're a spellcaster and can make scrolls. As stated above, these can be made over the course of 2 hours while adventuring. Either the NPC is adding their own meager spells or you're casting your own party's spells on them. Either way, its a resource.
Beyond making stuff for you, imagine what befriending a magical beast or animal can do for the party, especially if someone in the party has spells to magically train these creatures to fight? Sure, the GM controls these allies, but filling out ranks of the party with extra flankers, mounts with extra movement types besides base land speeds, and scouts you can send out to detect enemies are all resources for overcoming the foes you struggle with.
TxSam88 wrote: this is one of the reasons why I hate Home brew. Most GM's don't know enough about the game to create well written, balanced, level appropriate encounters. my advice is to start over with 1st level characters and have your GM run one of the prewritten Adventure Paths.
I always prefer a homebrewed campaign over a published module. Almost every problem an inexperienced GM will have with his own campaign he will also have with a module. But when I play in a world created by the GM, I am connecting with someone personally, getting to know their mind, sharing their vision.
When the GM is being a gate-keeping, bullying jerk like so many GMs are, when that GM actually created the world he is running, he at least has something meaningful to say about the intent of the rules, at least it's actually his own artistic vision he is defending.
I don't understand any GM trying to defend or even opine on the intention of an adventure or campaign world they didn't even create.
If you don't feel like putting the work in to create the adventure or the world yourself, that's fine. I get it. Creating a campaign setting is hard work.
But I will always appreciate that hard work.
TxSam88 wrote: ever been on a jury before? Quite often things are decided upon purely based upon someone's word and their credentials are how you decide on how much weight their word has. There is a problem with offering your person as evidence. All evidence offered invites cross-examination. When you offer your person as evidence, you are offering yourself for personal attack.
And so...
TxSam88 wrote: I've played since 1983, even done some work for WOTC So it sounds like you have a dog in this fight. It sounds like you are a published writer and homespinning GMs somehow insult your craft and maybe undermine your livelihood. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm somewhat sympathetic. Sometimes, watching people do things badly that I am passionate about can be almost physically painful. But just because I live on the same planet that Bobby Fisher lived on, I still will play the occasional chess game. I suck at chess. My opponent may be worse, but we'll have our fun anyway.
Agénor wrote: TxSam88 wrote: When you don't have data/evidence you can use to prove a point, you then rely on people who have experienced the situations in question. When one doesn't have reliable data, one doesn't make strong affirmative statements as if they were self-evident truths. People do that all the time. They do that more when they don't have good data than when they do. I wish they wouldn't, but they do.
Agénor wrote: Literally, you don't know enough hence you don't know. You didn't state an opinion or a personal experience, you've stated a fact. You didn't leave open the possibility of someone answering «Well, I've had a different experience.» but left open the possible answer of «No, TxSam88, you are wrong.»
When you don't have evidence to prove a point, you can't prove it.
Maybe, but Sam is making a soft argument to begin with. He's just saying he likes publish modules better than homespun adventurers, and he's saying that the OP's GM's problems are a direct result of not using a published module. He might have a point.
Agénor wrote: ...nothing to do with reality.
Ever done science before?^^
I was just saying that he invited you attack him personally, but that doesn't mean you should be rude. That kinda sounds like you're accusing him of having no objective grasp on reality.
Matthew Downie wrote: Pootisman wrote: What advice can i give to him?
...
I showed him this very simple table for the character wealth and explained him that CR is based also on the PC equipment and he said "i don't care, my campaign is low gold" and that's it.
i tried to explain him that a Newbie DM can't really balance encounters just using his instinct, he needs a guideline but he refuses to follow any.
I doubt he'd take any advice.
You should probably be GMing the game yourself. It makes sense for a group to alternate GMing amongst them; take turns.
Agénor wrote: However, it seems the Game Master has only little grasp over Pathfinder combat between the party and monsters. A few +1 or +2 here and there that ABP would bring wouldn't solve much. The issue lies with the G.M. making the effort of undertaking reading Pathfinder then coming back to his table and being open about what he modifies. Him justifying the way he runs things with «low gold/few magic items» is inconsistent with what O.P. describes as «embarrassing, either TPK or cake walk».
One should understand before one modifies so that the modifications make sense with the bulk of the corpus.
I think what the GM should do is collect copies of all the character record sheets and get each player to explain how their character "works," how they are meant act in combat, how the weapons, feats, spells, and other gear and talents are meant to work together, both as individuals and as members of a team. The GM should crunch some numbers and come up with DPRs
The GM should then design encounters based on a combination of his numbers and his narrative. You can't bring all the rulebooks to every encounter. A GM needs to just make decisions in real-time. He needs to reduce all the rules into a few numbers he can recognize at a glance, and keep the action going. The GM should think about how he hopes the party will handle each problem, and arrange those numbers to hopefully nudge the players accordingly. Nudge, not push. Everybody needs to make room for the disconnect of expectations.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I don't understand any GM trying to defend or even opine on the intention of an adventure or campaign world they didn't even create.
Are you saying that people can't have opinions about things they didn't create? Or that GMs can't have accurate understanding of a product they didn't have a hand in making?
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: I don't understand any GM trying to defend or even opine on the intention of an adventure or campaign world they didn't even create. Are you saying that people can't have opinions about things they didn't create? Or that GMs can't have accurate understanding of a product they didn't have a hand in making? No, people can have opinions about anything.
I'm saying people's opinions about the intentions of others have no weight most of the time. Unless you are actually the author or something, your opinion mere speculation, possibly rising to the level of inference.
And I'm saying that being a GM running somebody else's campaign gives you no more authority to presume upon the intent of the author than anybody else has. Less authority than the players' unless they are using pregens. I am almost always playing with characters I actually created, and if the GM isn't playing with something he actually created, he is merely a referee, and the players are the artists.
Jointly, we are all consumers of the same piece of artwork: the published module, but my interpretation of artwork is as good as anybody else's. Presumably, the GM has read the module in advance, and I haven't, that counts for something. But your authority over mine on the subject of a painting that you have seen and I haven't ends when I have seen the painting too. We will then be on equal footing unless of course, you are the artist or something.
But in terms of narrative, motivation, subtext, and meaning, authority comes from authorship.
Good GMs don't run other people's campaigns. Even when they are running a published module, they are still running their own campaign. A good GM takes responsibility. If something doesn't make sense to them, they change it. You don't have to know what the original author intended because it's not their game you are running, it's yours.
gnoams wrote: Good GMs don't run other people's campaigns. Even when they are running a published module, they are still running their own campaign. A good GM takes responsibility. If something doesn't make sense to them, they change it. You don't have to know what the original author intended because it's not their game you are running, it's yours. Pathfinder Society GMs are running someone else's campaign.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Maybe, but Sam is making a soft argument to begin with. He's just saying he likes publish modules better than homespun adventurers, and he's saying that the OP's GM's problems are a direct result of not using a published module. He might have a point. I didn't read it the way you did. I didn't understand the following
TxSam88 wrote: Most GM's don't know enough about the game to create well written, balanced, level appropriate encounters. to be a soft point at all. This statement isn't presented as an informed opinion, this is a hasty generalisation.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Agénor wrote: ...nothing to do with reality.
Ever done science before?^^
I was just saying that he invited you attack him personally, but that doesn't mean you should be rude. That kinda sounds like you're accusing him of having no objective grasp on reality.
It wasn't my intent to be rude, I do present my apologies if my form was so.
However, I do think that judiciary truth, including the way to establish it, is a rather poor grasp on reality, yes.
- and I do make a difference between «truth» and «reality», the former is subjective, the latter is not -
At any rate, I am not even attacking his point that most G.M. don't know what they are doing. I am attacking the weak foundations on which this statement is set, «My personal anecdotal experience is such and such and therefore I can infer unambivalent robust affirmations about realty from it.»
Whether the affirmations end up being correct or not isn't what doesn't sit well with me.
Agénor wrote:
«My personal anecdotal experience is such and such and therefore I can infer unambivalent robust affirmations about realty from it.»
Sadly, this is pretty much how reality works. Peoples personal experiences are pretty much what all decisions are based upon, and those experiences pretty much define reality.
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Didn't THIS thread begin with someone's personal experience with a low-gold game and ask for advice on how to either adapt to it, urge their GM to change things, or both?
Agénor wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Maybe, but Sam is making a soft argument to begin with. He's just saying he likes publish modules better than homespun adventurers, and he's saying that the OP's GM's problems are a direct result of not using a published module. He might have a point. I didn't read it the way you did. I didn't understand the following
TxSam88 wrote: Most GM's don't know enough about the game to create well written, balanced, level appropriate encounters. to be a soft point at all. This statement isn't presented as an informed opinion, this is a hasty generalisation. In general, my preferences of homespun vs. published adventures and campaigns are the opposite of Sam's, but Sam might be right in that the OP's problems are likely an inevitable result of homespun campaigns. Although I think it's more likely the result of an inexperienced GMing rather than original worldbuilding.
My advice is to the OP is to handle the situation with cunning, verve, and patience. Be forgiving and allow the GM to grow, and make no apologies for his own gaming style.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
In general, my preferences of homespun vs. published adventures and campaigns are the opposite of Sam's, but Sam might be right in that the OP's problems are likely an inevitable result of homespun campaigns. Although I think it's more likely the result of an inexperienced GMing rather than original worldbuilding.
Agreed, a good Experienced GM can create awesome original worlds, sadly, many try it way before they have enough experience to do it correctly, and even experienced ones sometimes lack the time to do it sufficiently.
TxSam88 wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: In general, my preferences of homespun vs. published adventures and campaigns are the opposite of Sam's, but Sam might be right in that the OP's problems are likely an inevitable result of homespun campaigns. Although I think it's more likely the result of an inexperienced GMing rather than original worldbuilding. Agreed, a good Experienced GM can create awesome original worlds, sadly, many try it way before they have enough experience to do it correctly, and even experienced ones sometimes lack the time to do it sufficiently. Correct, incorrect, we're playing fantasy make-believe, and the GM is axiomatically always right.
The real question is is the GM really so bad that you are having less fun? And if the answer is no, well, can you be patient with the GM? How will he ever become a good and experienced GM if people like you and me aren't willing to be his learning experience?
I've had highly experienced GMs who were terrible, and I had a GM who hit it out of the park on literally her first try. What made a terrible GM was gate-keeping and inflexible thinking, being unable to adapt or accept the ideas that I was bringing. I had one that was like, "You can't take levels in that if that's your character's name! There's only one place in the world where you could get training in that class, and they would refuse your training!" So he made me change my character's name, switch levels in one class for another, and I didn't come back to his table. He just had no respect for the effort and careful consideration I put into my character.
I had another situation where I had my true neutral Arcane Trickster try to surreptitiously cast Blood Transcription on the body of the slain evil wizard. And when we started mapping the area (Kingmaker Campaign), I said, "I cast Commune with Birds to get the lay of the land." He was dumbfounded and didn't know how to handle that. He was like a 4 Star PFS GM, but he could not handle thinking that was even a little out-of-the box. I just stopped coming back.
On the other hand, sometimes conflicts with my GM resulted in some awesome gaming experiences.
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