I am looking at the Monster Tactician Inquisitor and mechanically all I see is upside when compared to the Summoner
Being able to share teamwork feats is huge but being divine so you can wade into combat alongside them is huge.
What are the pros and cons of each?
What has the higher ceiling?
Original summoner or unchained? I have to agree with you on unchained, but the original summoner spell list is loaded with reduced spell level goodies so that you look like a weirdly specialised sorcerer half the time. Later on that better spell list adds up to a higher optimisation ceiling.
Summoner or Master Summoner (archetype)? Because the main feature of the Monster Tactician Inquisitor is the Summon Monster SLA ability - and that ability cannot be used by the Summoner while the Eidolon is active and vice versa (some special exceptions apply to that rule).
General things:
- The Summoner has an arcane spell list with things like Haste, Invisibility, Overland Flight or Dominate Monster. While being a 6th level caster he has a squished 9th level spell list. Both spell lists are powerful, with perhaps a light advantage in "general utility" for summons for the Summoner.
- The (full) Eidolon is a very solid combat chassis, with flight, reach, pounce etc build-in depending on the build and the level. A bit over a combat animal companion, but not by much. Depending on your build it can be a decent frontliner for your group if your players do not want to cover that role.
- One uses Charisma, the other Wisdom as casting stat. Both have their advantages.
- The out-of-summoning utility of the Summoner is almost non-existent. The MT is still an Inquisitor with a lot of mechanical features to provide utility and power inside and outside of combat.
- The Inquisitor is MAD, the Summoner is SAD and can be played this way without loosing too much, while of course he can be build to fulfill a secondary role (like melee with a long spear), but then would have to balance the different attribute requirements. A strictly spellcasting oriented Inquisitor? Sure, but perhaps not the best idea.
If you are however talking about the Summon Monster SLA, there is the Master Summoner (Summoner) archetype.
- The MS starts with [5 +ChaMod] charges of his daily Summon Monster SLA, the MT with [3 +mod].
- The MS can have multiple max level Summon Monster SLA active. The MT only 1. Which means for the MT 1 max level creature or 1d3 / 1d4+1 lower level creature. If you have (just as an example) 20 Charisma and you are level 7 (Summon Monster 4), 10 Hound Archons can fight at your side. This is one of the reasons while the Master Summoner is so infamous: many players cannot handle and are not used handling multiple summons. There are literally apps like the "Master Summoner" app making that feature usable at a normal table.
- As the Master Summoner will probably more specialize in summoning he will probably use more of the summoning feats like the full Expanded Summon List feat or the Evolved Summon feat. And his ability to have more summons can lead to insane results. Like summoning up to 6 Vulpinals at level 13 (with one single Summon SLA, and at that level you will have 10-12 uses per day), each of them is invisibile, has a ton of support spells ... and each can heal 18d6 hitpoints.
- The eidolon of a Master Summoner is not a combat creature. The mini-eidolon of a Master Summoner can be a surprisingly good rogue/scout-replacement if your players do not want to cover that area. Magic Trap finding, avian flight, darkvision and multiple +8 bonuses to rogue/scout skills like stealth, perception and disable device can come in quite handy.
SYL
I really don't feel the summoner is any less MAD than the monster tactician. The monster tactician can be built and played as a full caster. They just have more options to branch out from that, than the summoner has.
I'd also say being wisdom based is a little more powerful than being charisma based. Wisdom will help with common things like will saves and perception checks. Charisma is mostly just for some social skills which will be of variable use.
Another minor bonus to the MT is having a good fortitude save. Between having that good fortitude and a really good will save, it will be very hard to quickly take a monster tactician out of a fight.
The monster tactician can be built and played as a full caster.
In theory sure, but consider: some of the remaing MT Inquisitor abilities are still heavily combat oriented like Bane and teamwork feats. And the second main feature of the MT, the summoned creature teamwork feats requires either the MT fighting with summoned creature (Outflank for example) or summoning lower level summons (1d3 / 1d4+1) which can sometimes be extremely powerful, but often weakens the summoned creatures due to the gap in CR/HD. So in order to use these class abilities you would need the weaken your caster stats and vice versa.
The Summoner, indirectly, has a bit more "freedom" in that regard, as he has the Summon Monser SLA, then a good spell list with very good buff/control spells and then the combat focused eidolon, taking care of wrecking stuff, allowing the Summoner to focus on the caster side. And the Master Summoner simply has more Summon Monster SLAs.
But yes, the MT Inquisitor is a very good, very powerful and very well designed package, that is true.
Edit: ah, yes another major advantage for the MT Inquisitor: he is actually accepted at the gaming table. How many DMs start with "No Summoner! No Master Summoner! Oh yea, Inquisitor is fine!!!". *sign*
SYL
Synthesist had to be banned from PFS because it can very easily break the point buy system. You can dump all physical scores to 7 and then replace those scores all day with your eidolon's stats.
Power-wise, the synthesist is weaker than the base summoner, because of action economy.
being divine so you can wade into combat alongside them is huge.
Is it? I ocne calculated the damage gain form my SUmmoner's Haste, and ended up with a number on part with the damage output of one of the party's martials. With Haste and the Eidolon, my Summoner provided the damage output of two good martials.
Overall, as pretty much always the case, what's best depends on what you actually want. If you want a martial (or rather gish) character that summons some extra bodies, Monster Tactician is best. If you want a purely summoner focussed character, Master Summoner is best. If you want to add a powerful melee presence and damage boost to a group with some martial/gish characters, vanilla Summoner is best. All of these are among the most powerful Pathfinder has to offer in the 6/9 casting range.
Unless you have someone who has nothing better to do than cast Haste first round of every combat (Bard/Skald), that spell alone pretty much makes Summoner have a better spell list. That goes double for cSummoner, which gets many spells at the same character level as full casters; e.g. Haste, Greater Invisibility, Overland Flight, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Greater Teleport, Maze.
- The (full) Eidolon is a very solid combat chassis, with flight, reach, pounce etc build-in depending on the build and the level. A bit over a combat animal companion, but not by much. Depending on your build it can be a decent frontliner for your group if your players do not want to cover that role.
I presume you're either talking about unchained Summoner, or have never seen a proper Eidolon. A well-build Eidolon is so much better than an animal companion it's not even a competition, and blows 98% of all martial characters out of the water, too!
Frankly I'll never understand GMs being paranoid about the summoners. They're far from overpowered. Comparing similar concepts, I would say from experience, an oracle or a cleric with an animal companion is worse because of the bigger spellcasting.
You don't see the issue because you're making the wrong comparisons. Sure, compared to a Oracle or Cleric, Summoner isn't problematic, but what about a martial? From their viewpoint, you have someone in your party who's class feature is (probably) better than your entire class, and the guy still has 6/9 casting with an amazing spell list on top of that! Even for a Barbarian, having to spend three rage powers and waiting until 10th level when the Eidolon can just get pounce for 1 evolution point at first level, and likewise having to spend three rage powers to get a few rounds of flight per day at a time where the Summoner has cast Overland Flight on the Eidolon for all-day-long flight, can easily feel unfair.
The problem with Summoner has never been power level, but spotlight stealing power. Synthesist is the same thing on crack, having the same issues but lacking the feel good effect martials get form recieving Haste every combat (which is why Synthesist is even more hated despite being a huge downgrade in power). I Wizard buffing the melee, and teleporting the melee around, and using spells to prevent enemies from hitting the melee, is way ahead in power, but that doesn't feel bad from a melee's perspective. Someone who just does more damage than a melee without having the same problems with flying or invisible enemies may be much weaker, but can still feel much more overshadowing.
In effect, the Summoner's biggest problem is not the class itself, but the large number of atrociously made martial classes that get outclassed by the Eidolon. Brawler, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, and cMonk lack selectable class features, which no class in the game should lack. Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, Swashbuckler, Ninja, and Samurai only have a single good save, something no pure martial class in the game should have. Rogue, Ninja, and Stalker Vigilante are even behind an Eidolon on BAB three quarters of the time because they have medium BAB, something no pure martial class in the game should have. And to add insult to injury, most of these classes also don't have an easy fix to the "can't move plus full attack" sickness that plagues the game, while Eidolon does.
@Derek Dalton: Let me get this straight, you say Synthesist is weak because you pick crappy attacks and don't pick the options to increase your AC, and because the casting of a 6/9 caster isn't stronger than a Wizard's? You're a few months late for April Fools' Day, you know?
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When I played a vanilla original summoner, I found the Eidolon to be far more powerful than summoned creatures. It felt like my character was 3/4 of a full caster, with a pet that was 3/4 of a martial, each with their own standard actions. The Eidolon was a bipedal with weapon proficiency: greatsword and the Reach evolution. It also had Disable Device and the Skilled Evolution for +8 on the checks. I used the summon monster SLA mostly for out of combat utility.
Monster Tactician gets teamwork feats. They may not have Tactician to hand out those teamwork feats to the party, but they can via Rings of Tactical Precision (which they can craft themselves if they are so inclined). Best part about those particular rings is the bonus from Aid Another goes up. Now you stick Harrying Partners in those rings.
What if the Monster Tactician is a Helpful Halfling (or at least was once Adopted by Halflings and learned to be Helpful)?
You could even VMC Cavalier to get Tactician/Greater Tactician and actually hand out your teamwork feats to everyone. Take the Order of the Dragon for Aid Allies. Oh my...
So I am looking at a Str 36 BAB +7 Eidolon(chained) at level 9 with 5 primary natural attacks, rend and pounce.
I am not sure if I missed something. The Enlarge Person spell does not give you the full strength increase of the Huge Size, only +2.
So that´s 14 base for the pouncing quadruped form, +2 for the strength evolution, +3 for the eidolon level, +8 for being large (via spell or evolution point choice) and +2 for the Enlarge spell So that´s around 29 Strengthor? Still beefy of course.
You can of course spend 10 evolution points on the Huge evolution, which gives you the full +16 strength ... but only at level 13.
For the archer fighter (your example): you may add a bit more, depending on your choices. Example Warrior Spirit bane (turning the +2 bow into a +7 bow doing 1D8+2d6 + str/other bonuses), flight at level 7 and 50% increased HP.
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I presume you're either talking about unchained Summoner, or have never seen a proper Eidolon. A well-build Eidolon is so much better than an animal companion it's not even a competition, and blows 98% of all martial characters out of the water, too!
There are certainly some weaker martial characters, but as you stated: it is not a problem of the summoner or the eidolon, as it would be the same for the Oracle or Cleric, it would be a problem of the corresponding class being weak in general and not well designed.
Regarding the Animal Companion: it certainly depends on the context and situation, but some AC classes like the druid have some powerful buffs for their ACs like Animal Growth. Using that on an appropriate combat AC is actually surprisingly strong.
But yes, if would require multiple buffs, that is not always usable, and as a "base" form the eidolon is certainly stronger than an AC.
SYL
Thanks for clarifying the strength setup.
However, you are now using multiple spells (enlarge person, bulls strength, summon eidolon, evolution surge, depending on the exact setup), and they are 1/min range, so 9min. I am not counting things like Barkskin or Greater Magic Fang as they indeed on the long timer).
So longer than a battle will last in Pathfinder, but not necessarily long enou8gh to cover multiple battles or an entire dungeon exploration. That however is very depending on the scenario. In my personal experience it is often possible for a fighter to activate Warrior Spirit right before the combat, more often than for caster to bring out multiple spells. Your (GM) experience may vary of course).
(And strictly speaking about the rules: you do not need to pass a knowledge check to activate the corresponding warrior spirit bane (or any other enchantment. You can simply select by guessing it. You can be of course wrong.)
And yes, I was referring to the the Mutation Warrior / Eldritch Guardian / Protector Familiar combo. With the Shield Other effect through a Protector Familiar the fighter is quite durable. I was referring to that familiar ability with the 50% (and later 100%) HP increase (although the correct description would be 50% more effective HP). This effect can partially be recreated with the Lifelink ability of the Summoner.
Don´t get me wrong: the chained eidolon is very strong, and compared to some of the badly designed martial classes it can certainly be more powerful. And if you only had the books available when the Advanced Player Guide (with the Summoner introduced) came out you were certainly a bit wondering about the balance abilitie3s of Paizo. That however has changed with things like Advanced Weapon Training or Dire Tigers with Animal Growth.
SYL
There are certainly some weaker martial characters, but as you stated: it is not a problem of the summoner or the eidolon, as it would be the same for the Oracle or Cleric, it would be a problem of the corresponding class being weak in general and not well designed.
While it can happen with an animal companion, the chance for a melee to be overshadowed is much, much greater when it comes to an Eidolon. That is the main issue.
Overshadowing/spotlight stealing requires similarity. Unlike an animal companion, an Eidolon is a talking, intelligent creature. It has a PC class like progression (unlike an animal companion), and competes for the same party jobs as a melee PC. An Eidolon could legitimately by a PC class, and would reign among the top of martial classes.
In effect, a Summoner player is pretty much controlling two full fledged PCs, and if one of them is just like your character only better, that breeds bad feelings.
Also, it's not just the weak martial classes. Between levels 4 and 9 an well build Eidolon outdamages almost every melee (including the likes of a raging Barbarian), because pounce reigns surpreme, and most melees actually never catch up at all.
Regarding the Animal Companion: it certainly depends on the context and situation, but some AC classes like the druid have some powerful buffs for their ACs like Animal Growth. Using that on an appropriate combat AC is actually surprisingly strong.
Regarding the Eidolon: it certainly depends on the context and situation, but the summoner has some powerful buffs for their Eidolon like Greater Invisibility. Using that on an appropriate combat Eidolon is actually surprisingly strong.
A while ago I compared the numbers for a pouncing Big Cat animal companion buffed with Animal Growth and Haste to an Eidolon buffed with just Haste, and the Eidolon still came out on top (at 9th level, when the impact of the spell is greatest).When I played a vanilla original summoner, I found the Eidolon to be far more powerful than summoned creatures.
At higher levels, summoning a bunch of creatures of a lower list can be very powerful (with Augmented + Superior Summoning). Especially once you hit 13th level and can summon multiple celestial dire tigers, which have an unusually high attack roll and HD - with smite and pounce, that can result in a lot of damage.
It felt like my character was 3/4 of a full caster, with a pet that was 3/4 of a martial, each with their own standard actions. The Eidolon was a bipedal with weapon proficiency: greatsword and the Reach evolution.
Next time, pick a quadruped with maxed out primary natural weapons, and the Eidolon is 5/4 of a martial!
Even using evolution gets main attacks at d8 and secondary at d6. Well designed martial class can do higher.
You measure martial classes by the size of their weapon damage dice? Seriously?
*supresses the urge to make a "size comparison" joke*
If you're genuinly interested in the topic I can explain why weapon damage dice negligible, what makes for a well build Eidolon, and how it compares to various martial builds.
Another benefit of the inquisitor is they actually get skills. Not only do they get 3 times the amount of skill points they also get bonuses to multiple skills. They also have a much better class skill list then the summoner. CHA is the summoners primary stat and they have only two CHA based skills on their list
The inquisitor also gets two good saves vs one. And since they are often getting into combat will probably have a higher CON which will make their Fortitude save even higher. They also get medium armor and shields. Overall this is going to boost their durability over the summoner.
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I think pounce gets really overvalued in these discussions. There are so very many times where there isn't a clear charge lane. And a majority of rounds, the enemies are just a five foot step away, anyway. Sure, pounce will come in useful some rounds, but it really isn't game defining.
Overshadowing/spotlight stealing requires similarity. Unlike an animal companion, an Eidolon is a talking, intelligent creature. It has a PC class like progression (unlike an animal companion), and competes for the same party jobs as a melee PC. An Eidolon could legitimately by a PC class, and would reign among the top of martial classes.
Once upon a time there was a guy who wrote a 3rd party archetype for the barbarian which got evolution points instead of the usual rage bonuses. Just when raging, mind. It was called the Masquerade Reveler & yes it was fey-themed. Since Rogue Eidolon later got a job at Paizo he might be thought to be reasonably in tune with their ideas of balance.
@Melkiador, IMO a pouncer might want to put some thought into being able to deal with rough terrain and maybe allies in the way of a charge. Walls being in the way are another matter of course.
I think pounce gets really overvalued in these discussions. There are so very many times where there isn't a clear charge lane. And a majority of rounds, the enemies are just a five foot step away, anyway. Sure, pounce will come in useful some rounds, but it really isn't game defining.
Many times, I think Pounce isn't valued ENOUGH. A full attack is often enough to drop an enemy. Every pounce puts you up like 4-5 attacks on a non-pounce character. You have reach and in class flight so difficult terrain is often less of a problem for you than others. The summon eidolon spell can also drop it into the perfect position as well.
Ok, lets play it out. Warrior's Spirit with +2 Weapon Training (sans gloves of dueling)
I would definitely argue that a Warrior Spirit Fighter would try to get the Gloves ASAP as they are an incredible power boost. So both his "staying power" and the actual power of the Warrior Spirit selection is increased. But yes, the fighter certainly have to limit the usage of WS to the important fight, similar to the summoner who has to decide on what to buff for each fight (large evolution vs some more easy encounters for example). And yes, Extended Rods are as important for a Summoner as the gloves for a Fighter.
Dire Tigers were Bestiary 1 and Animal Growth was Core Rulebook, so not sure about that part.
Yeah, but later you got things like Atavis, Animal Growth (even Animal Growth alone put a the AC on Str 32), Aspect of the Wolf, Celestial Servant (giving Smite to the AC), Strong Jaw, Thorn Body, Vine Strike, Evolved Companion, AC specific feats and archetypes - and even Divine Power and Righteous Might (if you manage to be a Cleric, Inquisitor or Oracle with an AC). It is depending on your class, build and if you even have access to these feats and spells, but I believe between an AC back in the Advanced Player Guide age and today there is a power difference. I do not dispute the fact that a well build combat eidolon will be superior to a combat AC (especially considering easy flight access and human-like intelligence vs animal tricks), only that the difference may not be that great anymore compared to previous years.
And for higher levels the magic items slots (shared on the eidolon vs limited on the AC) will be a completely different topic as well.
SYL
Ok, lets play it out. Warrior's Spirit with +2 Weapon Training (sans gloves of dueling)
I would definitely argue that a Warrior Spirit Fighter would try to get the Gloves ASAP as they are an incredible power boost. So both his "staying power" and the actual power of the Warrior Spirit selection is increased. But yes, the fighter certainly have to limit the usage of WS to the important fight, similar to the summoner who has to decide on what to buff for each fight (large evolution vs some more easy encounters for example). And yes, Extended Rods are as important for a Summoner as the gloves for a Fighter.
The crucial difference here would be the Gloves of Dueling are a third(15,000 gp) of the Fighter's wealth at 9th level(Per Character Advancement) and a Rod of Lesser Extend is a 46th(1000 gp) of the Summoner's wealth.
Almost true (the lesser rod is 3k, not 1k), but the gloves are a beast of a power-up for a fighter, especially when AWTs come into play. Something comparable in both price and power does not exist for the Summoner (un)fortunately.
SYL
You're right on the prices that's my bad. My experience playing Pathfinder and a few different APs there is typically not enough gold to grab something like the Gloves of Dueling until 10th level and up. It's a very large bulk investment.
So no matter how nice the gloves are, we're still unlikely to have them unless the entire party is giving us their cut of the loot.
The summon eidolon spell can also drop it into the perfect position as well.
That sounds more like an argument against pounce. Most combats start in fairly small enclosures. Only a few open field battles in Pathfinder APs and modules, and many of those are ambushes.
Summon Eidolon btw has a casting time of 1 round, making the summoner/eidolon loose 1 round of damage if you go this way.
SYL
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When I played a Summoner, my first round was sometimes: cast Haste + full attack with Eidolon. My (medium sized) Eidolon was almost always already summoned. Sometimes I cast Evolution Surge on the first round instead.
I find that one or maybe 2 rounds buffing is all you can afford. I chose to keep my Eidolon medium size, for the reasons Derek Dalton mentions above, and use Eidolon Surge for a temporary size boost.
A large eidolon should be able to enter most game areas by squeezing. Huge is a problem though. If you’ve gone huge, then you are going to be using summon eidolon to bring it into most combats.
Alternatively, you can cast Alter Self on your eidolon, before entering narrow doors. You can even ready an action to dispel it after the eidolon enters a door if you’re doing an ambush.
See, this is probably why Monster Tactician is "better"... you have skills that are useful, two good saves, and class abilities that are still useful outside of summoning BS.
It does mean that you, yourself have to contribute to the party outside os summoning, though. So your stats have to match... archery is strong for an Inquisitor, works with Monster Tactician just the same. Every party needs an archer anyways.
A large eidolon should be able to enter most game areas by squeezing. Huge is a problem though. If you’ve gone huge, then you are going to be using summon eidolon to bring it into most combats.
Alternatively, you can cast Alter Self on your eidolon, before entering narrow doors. You can even ready an action to dispel it after the eidolon enters a door if you’re doing an ambush.
You could even do something silly and toss a hat of disguise greater on it.
See, this is probably why Monster Tactician is "better"... you have skills that are useful, two good saves, and class abilities that are still useful outside of summoning BS.
It does mean that you, yourself have to contribute to the party outside os summoning, though. So your stats have to match... archery is strong for an Inquisitor, works with Monster Tactician just the same. Every party needs an archer anyways.
Summoner has a much stronger spell list and acts as a party force amplifier.
Summoner has a subjectively "better" spell list... and generally acts as a buffer for their "friend"... and thier friend is taking the place they are wasting by not being there themseleves... unless you are hasting the entire party first, literally screw all your spells...
Haste is a creature per level and is a 2nd level spell on the Summoner's list. Third on unchained. You can hit the whole party with one cast by 5th level or 4th(chained) if you exclude someone.
The offensive spells are also nothing to sniff at. Black Tentacles, Slow, Create Pit spells, Glitterdust etc.
The summoner can do offensive spells, but has a couple problems with it. Lower base DCs from being a 6th level progression. And typically less focus on casting stat, again from being a 6th level progression. Also not many spells per day, once again from being a 6th level progression, but also no good source of bonus spells, like the magus spell recall ability.
The APG summoner's spell list handles buffing, protection and summoning about as well as a sorcerer of the same character level, and they can do a bit of battlefield control (including no-save effects) too. Then they have awesome utility ranging up to and including simulacrum and the full teleport line from dimension door up to teleportation circle, again at about the same character level as a sorcerer.
It's a lot like seeing a god wizard stripped down to the essentials.
An inquisitor has a whole lot of healing spells, buffs, debuffs and utility but not generally at reduced levels. It was intended to support a sneaky cleric and a battle cleric as concepts and it does that.
It looks a lot like a cleric with an interesting domain or two but a few character levels behind, perhaps because of significant multiclassing.
Both of these are valid PF characters and it's possible to make situations where either can shine, but one lends itself to a higher level of optimisation than the other. To be clear that's the summoner tho' the inquisitor wins DPR contests.