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When we are talking about summoning (reduced to the Summon Monster SLA), then the Master Summoner takes the cake due to the missing restrictions of how many SLAs you can have active. The I:MT is of course still a very cool combination of summoning abilities, skills and class abilities. SYL
Summon Eidolon btw has a casting time of 1 round, making the summoner/eidolon loose 1 round of damage if you go this way. SYL
Almost true (the lesser rod is 3k, not 1k), but the gloves are a beast of a power-up for a fighter, especially when AWTs come into play. Something comparable in both price and power does not exist for the Summoner (un)fortunately. SYL
I would definitely argue that a Warrior Spirit Fighter would try to get the Gloves ASAP as they are an incredible power boost. So both his "staying power" and the actual power of the Warrior Spirit selection is increased. But yes, the fighter certainly have to limit the usage of WS to the important fight, similar to the summoner who has to decide on what to buff for each fight (large evolution vs some more easy encounters for example). And yes, Extended Rods are as important for a Summoner as the gloves for a Fighter. Dire Tigers were Bestiary 1 and Animal Growth was Core Rulebook, so not sure about that part. Yeah, but later you got things like Atavis, Animal Growth (even Animal Growth alone put a the AC on Str 32), Aspect of the Wolf, Celestial Servant (giving Smite to the AC), Strong Jaw, Thorn Body, Vine Strike, Evolved Companion, AC specific feats and archetypes - and even Divine Power and Righteous Might (if you manage to be a Cleric, Inquisitor or Oracle with an AC). It is depending on your class, build and if you even have access to these feats and spells, but I believe between an AC back in the Advanced Player Guide age and today there is a power difference. I do not dispute the fact that a well build combat eidolon will be superior to a combat AC (especially considering easy flight access and human-like intelligence vs animal tricks), only that the difference may not be that great anymore compared to previous years. And for higher levels the magic items slots (shared on the eidolon vs limited on the AC) will be a completely different topic as well. SYL
Thanks for clarifying the strength setup. However, you are now using multiple spells (enlarge person, bulls strength, summon eidolon, evolution surge, depending on the exact setup), and they are 1/min range, so 9min. I am not counting things like Barkskin or Greater Magic Fang as they indeed on the long timer). So longer than a battle will last in Pathfinder, but not necessarily long enou8gh to cover multiple battles or an entire dungeon exploration. That however is very depending on the scenario. In my personal experience it is often possible for a fighter to activate Warrior Spirit right before the combat, more often than for caster to bring out multiple spells. Your (GM) experience may vary of course). (And strictly speaking about the rules: you do not need to pass a knowledge check to activate the corresponding warrior spirit bane (or any other enchantment. You can simply select by guessing it. You can be of course wrong.) And yes, I was referring to the the Mutation Warrior / Eldritch Guardian / Protector Familiar combo. With the Shield Other effect through a Protector Familiar the fighter is quite durable. I was referring to that familiar ability with the 50% (and later 100%) HP increase (although the correct description would be 50% more effective HP). This effect can partially be recreated with the Lifelink ability of the Summoner. Don´t get me wrong: the chained eidolon is very strong, and compared to some of the badly designed martial classes it can certainly be more powerful. And if you only had the books available when the Advanced Player Guide (with the Summoner introduced) came out you were certainly a bit wondering about the balance abilitie3s of Paizo. That however has changed with things like Advanced Weapon Training or Dire Tigers with Animal Growth. SYL
So I am looking at a Str 36 BAB +7 Eidolon(chained) at level 9 with 5 primary natural attacks, rend and pounce. I am not sure if I missed something. The Enlarge Person spell does not give you the full strength increase of the Huge Size, only +2. So that´s 14 base for the pouncing quadruped form, +2 for the strength evolution, +3 for the eidolon level, +8 for being large (via spell or evolution point choice) and +2 for the Enlarge spell So that´s around 29 Strengthor? Still beefy of course. You can of course spend 10 evolution points on the Huge evolution, which gives you the full +16 strength ... but only at level 13. For the archer fighter (your example): you may add a bit more, depending on your choices. Example Warrior Spirit bane (turning the +2 bow into a +7 bow doing 1D8+2d6 + str/other bonuses), flight at level 7 and 50% increased HP. ################ I presume you're either talking about unchained Summoner, or have never seen a proper Eidolon. A well-build Eidolon is so much better than an animal companion it's not even a competition, and blows 98% of all martial characters out of the water, too! There are certainly some weaker martial characters, but as you stated: it is not a problem of the summoner or the eidolon, as it would be the same for the Oracle or Cleric, it would be a problem of the corresponding class being weak in general and not well designed. Regarding the Animal Companion: it certainly depends on the context and situation, but some AC classes like the druid have some powerful buffs for their ACs like Animal Growth. Using that on an appropriate combat AC is actually surprisingly strong. But yes, if would require multiple buffs, that is not always usable, and as a "base" form the eidolon is certainly stronger than an AC. SYL
The monster tactician can be built and played as a full caster. In theory sure, but consider: some of the remaing MT Inquisitor abilities are still heavily combat oriented like Bane and teamwork feats. And the second main feature of the MT, the summoned creature teamwork feats requires either the MT fighting with summoned creature (Outflank for example) or summoning lower level summons (1d3 / 1d4+1) which can sometimes be extremely powerful, but often weakens the summoned creatures due to the gap in CR/HD. So in order to use these class abilities you would need the weaken your caster stats and vice versa. The Summoner, indirectly, has a bit more "freedom" in that regard, as he has the Summon Monser SLA, then a good spell list with very good buff/control spells and then the combat focused eidolon, taking care of wrecking stuff, allowing the Summoner to focus on the caster side. And the Master Summoner simply has more Summon Monster SLAs. But yes, the MT Inquisitor is a very good, very powerful and very well designed package, that is true. Edit: ah, yes another major advantage for the MT Inquisitor: he is actually accepted at the gaming table. How many DMs start with "No Summoner! No Master Summoner! Oh yea, Inquisitor is fine!!!". *sign* SYL
Summoner or Master Summoner (archetype)? Because the main feature of the Monster Tactician Inquisitor is the Summon Monster SLA ability - and that ability cannot be used by the Summoner while the Eidolon is active and vice versa (some special exceptions apply to that rule). General things: - The Summoner has an arcane spell list with things like Haste, Invisibility, Overland Flight or Dominate Monster. While being a 6th level caster he has a squished 9th level spell list. Both spell lists are powerful, with perhaps a light advantage in "general utility" for summons for the Summoner. - The (full) Eidolon is a very solid combat chassis, with flight, reach, pounce etc build-in depending on the build and the level. A bit over a combat animal companion, but not by much. Depending on your build it can be a decent frontliner for your group if your players do not want to cover that role. - One uses Charisma, the other Wisdom as casting stat. Both have their advantages. - The out-of-summoning utility of the Summoner is almost non-existent. The MT is still an Inquisitor with a lot of mechanical features to provide utility and power inside and outside of combat. - The Inquisitor is MAD, the Summoner is SAD and can be played this way without loosing too much, while of course he can be build to fulfill a secondary role (like melee with a long spear), but then would have to balance the different attribute requirements. A strictly spellcasting oriented Inquisitor? Sure, but perhaps not the best idea. If you are however talking about the Summon Monster SLA, there is the Master Summoner (Summoner) archetype. - The MS starts with [5 +ChaMod] charges of his daily Summon Monster SLA, the MT with [3 +mod]. - The MS can have multiple max level Summon Monster SLA active. The MT only 1. Which means for the MT 1 max level creature or 1d3 / 1d4+1 lower level creature. If you have (just as an example) 20 Charisma and you are level 7 (Summon Monster 4), 10 Hound Archons can fight at your side. This is one of the reasons while the Master Summoner is so infamous: many players cannot handle and are not used handling multiple summons. There are literally apps like the "Master Summoner" app making that feature usable at a normal table. - As the Master Summoner will probably more specialize in summoning he will probably use more of the summoning feats like the full Expanded Summon List feat or the Evolved Summon feat. And his ability to have more summons can lead to insane results. Like summoning up to 6 Vulpinals at level 13 (with one single Summon SLA, and at that level you will have 10-12 uses per day), each of them is invisibile, has a ton of support spells ... and each can heal 18d6 hitpoints. - The eidolon of a Master Summoner is not a combat creature. The mini-eidolon of a Master Summoner can be a surprisingly good rogue/scout-replacement if your players do not want to cover that area. Magic Trap finding, avian flight, darkvision and multiple +8 bonuses to rogue/scout skills like stealth, perception and disable device can come in quite handy. SYL
In general however Spells/SLAs vanish if the summonend Monster vanishes, so for multiple effect you would usually use lower level summons. ### When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. ###
Synthesist could be banned just for breaking the point buy system. You could dump all of your physical scores and max your mental scores with little penalty. Alternatively, the more generous the rolling method you use, the less powerful the synthesist relatively becomes. Play in a game of 5d6 drop the two lowest and reroll ones, and the synthesist really falls behind. Please do not forget that a Synthesist Summoner cannot be healed normally (no fast healing, no cure wounds etc) - only via Rejuvenate Eidolon spell, which would take up a lot of spells per day from the summoner. But yes. Summoner in general, together with some other classes shine far more the more restrictive the GM is regarding magical items and stat generation. And of course: the higher the game progresses the more the shared magic item slot, the increaesd damage reduction and the more non-AC-attacks from enemies tend to balance out the initial strong eidolon. SYL
Hoi We know that if a Master Summoner is summoning 6+ monsters the combat can slow down quite substantially (even if you prepared everything and are pre-rolling dices during the turn of the other players). That is something I would like to avoid. Does anyone thought about a mechanismn to "virtually" convert multiple summoned monsters in one monster with better stats? Ideally it would have a similar combat effect (minus action economy) but where the dicerolls would be solved far faster? Like "you summon 4 earth elementals => you get one earth elemental with +3 on all stats/rolls"? Or is there even an official mechanism for that somewhere? Thanks! SYL
Ah, there seems to be a misunderstanding. My eidolon is the scout/rogue. Small eidolon, goes for perception, disable device, stealth, fly and UMD (which is more or less the maximum which the eidolon of a master summoner can pack). => www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner- archetypes/master-summoner
Hoi there I am playing a tpyical Master Summoner with a scout/disable device/perception eidolon (small size, skilled evolution for things like perception, disable device, fly etc). Currently I am little bit at loss on what feats to choose to support the scouting/rogue aspect. Level 5 btw, so the eidolon counts as 2 HD. It uses wings/fly mostly for movement. Skill focus for perception/disable device/stealth? +3 for one feat does not seem to be really impressive. Additional trait for more rogue-ish traits? Besides trapfinder I am not quite sure what there is? Fleet for more speed? You can never be fast enough... Any ideas or suggestions?
Hoi The new Monster Summoner Handbook brought the Expanded Summon Monster feat http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-summon-monster So, 18 new monsters for a summoner, 2 per each summon level. What to choose? For 3rd grade I am currently considering Thoqqa for melee and stone tunnel burrowing and the Luyrakien Azata as template for a guardian spirit / general usefulness with many different small and big abilites. What would you recommend for the other 8 grades? We will be playing in a campaign with a mixture of survival, stealth, guerilla combat and low ressources (for everything). My general idea would be some heavy combat and some utility/SLA monsters. Thanks! |
