"you can’t use it again for X rounds."


Rules Discussion

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Alfa/Polaris wrote:


It's unclear whether a cooldown would count as an "effect" and use those rules.

In this edition, everything is an effect: "Anything you do in the game has an effect."

So, a cooldown is an effect.


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Don't ignore reactions. While I am not aware of any current creatures with a limited-use ability that is also a reaction, I do not doubt Paizo would use future-proof language and strive for consistency when writing stat blocks. If this is the case then rolling a 1 would indeed deny the creature use of this ability (as a reaction) for one round, but it could use it as a normal action on its next turn.

Liberty's Edge

Is it time to create a post that we can flag as FAQ on this question? If so, we need to come up with a good question.

Is this good?

When does the counter for "Can't be used again for (some number) rounds" abilities occur at the beginning of the turn or at the end of the turn?


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Gary Bush wrote:

Is it time to create a post that we can flag as FAQ on this question? If so, we need to come up with a good question.

Is this good?

When does the counter for "Can't be used again for (some number) rounds" abilities occur at the beginning of the turn or at the end of the turn?

Need rephrasing.

Some people have "1 round" from the end of a creature's turn to the beginning of their next turn. (subjective to the creature's initiative)
Others have "1 round" be the turn count tied to the rounds themselves, as in being in round 1, then round 2, etc. Used it on round one, can't use on round two (objective)
Some focus on the lost round of use rather than the time expired, so that until the creature takes a round where they can't use their ability, the clock doesn't tick down. (subjective, but same results as last entry)

I'd rather have an example than an answer framed in terms of "counters".


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I breezed through most of the thread, so pardon me if I rehash someone up thread.

In my opinion the wording of "cannot use it again for X rounds" is different from the wording of Duration. One is placing a restriction, while the other is stating how long something definitely lasts.

This means that treating a "cooldown" as a "duration" is a false equivalency. To wit: A duration of 1 round still allows whatever effect it had to be in effect for 1 round. A cooldown of 1 round, if you went with reading that you reduce said cooldown at the beginning of the actors turn, would mean that there was effectively no cooldown at all.

So I tend to ere towards Blave's reading on this one. "You can't use it again for (1) round," shouldn't be meaningless. There should be at least 1 round between uses.


SuperBidi wrote:
In this edition, everything is an effect: "Anything you do in the game has an effect."

Yes, this part seems to be correct. Paizo considers all acts/conditions to be effects. Some are instantaneous and some have durations.

Earlier in the thread, I said a breath weapon was not an effect. That was technically incorrect. I was conflating the idea that it was not an effect with a duration with it not being an effect.

My goal was to separate the attack from the cooldown penalty. Not sure if that ultimately helps the discussion, but it was one way to dissect the problem.

Quote:
So, a cooldown is an effect.

This is probably technically correct. However, the way the cooldown is written, it is neither a "condition" nor an "action." So that makes it look like a simple directive. Pathfinder doesn't seem to have "cooldown" as a thing in the rules. There doesn't seem to be any formal treatment of it, but I haven't read the book cover to cover. And, it may be that they do think of it as an "effect."

Gary Bush wrote:
When does the counter for "Can't be used again for (some number) rounds" abilities occur at the beginning of the turn or at the end of the turn?

Not sure the answer to this question would be dispositve.

What we want to know is when Paizo writes "can't use again for XdY rounds" on a roll of 1, is the ability barred from use in the next round?


Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:

Checking whether the effects are consistent is the reason to test the ruling against 1 vs 2 actions. For, it would only make sense that a rule would operate the same if the action were 1 or 2 or 3 actions.

So...

If the ability that had "...can't use X again for 1 round." and...

If the ability were 1 action and character Y used that ability on the 1st action on their turn in round 1, would it be usable again on the 2nd action of their turn in round 2? Hypothetically 1 round has passed since they used it last.

If yes, then the ruling is based on exactly 1 round passing actions and all.

If no, then...the the ruling detaches itself from the 3-action based economy of the system? So...then what is the ruling using as an attachment to the mechanics of the system?

I am just trying to understand what some of you are rooting your rulings in.

To me, I find the intention to be that X rounds need to have passed where a breath is not used, before it can be used again. To that end, I view it as a number line, where X is the number of rounds that need to have passed where you have not used your breath from the last time you used your breath.

So, if I breath on Round 1, I cannot breath on Round 2 because I did not have X amount of rounds pass where I did not use a breath, as the breath has been used in consecutive rounds. In other words, we need a X round gap in between the breaths for it to work.

In this example, X can equal 1 to 4, where those amounts of rounds need to have passed without using a breath in order to use a breath again. In this case, you add that value to the next round value, and that is the next available round for a breath to be available. So, if I breath on Round 1, then roll a 1, that means I add 1 to Round 2 to make it Round 3.

I understand the technicalities of the other argument, but I find those technicalities go from 1 to 2, not 0 to 2 like the rules suggest they do.

**EDIT** Changed my equation wording to better reflect the intended ruling.


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N N 959 wrote:
Quote:
So, a cooldown is an effect.
This is probably technically correct. However, the way the cooldown is written, it is neither a "condition" nor an "action." So that makes it look like a simple directive. Pathfinder doesn't seem to have "cooldown" as a thing in the rules. There doesn't seem to be any formal treatment of it, but I haven't read the book cover to cover. And, it may be that they do think of it as an "effect."

Honestly, the way the rules are written, I really think the cooldown should tick at the beginning or your turn. It may be illogical, it may not be RAI (as I don't know the developer intent) but it is really RAW in my opinion. In an environment like PFS, I think it's the safest and most defendable position for RAW.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Honestly, the way the rules are written, I really think the cooldown should tick at the beginning or your turn. It may be illogical, it may not be RAI (as I don't know the developer intent) but it is really RAW in my opinion.

As a cooldown would definitely be a detrimental effect (restricts an action) by RAW it would not tick at the start of your turn. But that alone doesn't necessarily change the ouctome

Quote:
In an environment like PFS, I think it's the safest and most defendable position for RAW.

I disagree. The safest most consistent position is "can't use" means that you can't use the action for 1d4 rounds. As Darksol points out, there has to be an actual period that you "can't use again." All abilities are affected equally, regardless of how many actions they cost. The math is simple.


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'd agree if the ability said you can't use it again for 1d4 turns, but it doesn't. Reactions are a thing, after all. Maybe no current limited-use abilities are reactions, but in the future some may be and we're simply seeing future-proof language in use.


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N N 959 wrote:
Quote:
In an environment like PFS, I think it's the safest and most defendable position for RAW.
I disagree. The safest most consistent position is "can't use" means that you can't use the action for 1d4 rounds. As Darksol points out, there has to be an actual period that you "can't use again." All abilities are affected equally, regardless of how many actions they cost. The math is simple.

Your position is not one of RAW but one of RAI. I can bring the rules about durations to back up my reading but you don't have a single line to back up yours. You just try to find a "meaning" to rules. That's ok if you don't follow RAW. But in a PFS environment, RAW is expected to be applied. And if a character has an ability that says "once every 1d4 rounds", expect the player to strongly disagree if you decide not to follow RAW and give one extra round of cooldown to his ability.

As a side note, the "start your turn" rules are quite clear also:
"If you created an effect lasting for a certain number of rounds, reduce the number of rounds remaining by 1. The effect ends if the duration is reduced to 0."


Still contentious with no consensus?

Cause that's what it looks like.


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N N 959 wrote:
I disagree. The safest most consistent position is "can't use" means that you can't use the action for 1d4 rounds. As Darksol points out, there has to be an actual period that you "can't use again." All abilities are affected equally, regardless of how many actions they cost. The math is simple.

See the thing is, as written you cannot use it for one round starting from when it comes into effect and the start of the next round. This is no different from any other count down ability that doesn't stipulate end of round.

That you couldn't use it in that period due to lack of actions is irrelevant to a RAW reading. You cannot use it for one round, the condition is fulfilled.

Keep in mind this is generic cooldown text that is used for similar abilities that don't have to have two actions to use them.
The [Aolaz] for instance with its ultrasonic blast.

Again, a RAW reading doesn't care if a creature is currently capable of taking an action. For instance if a PC was drained 6 and and influenced by an effect that said "you cannot take a stride action for 1d4 rounds" the round timer would still count down for the two rounds the character couldn't take stride actions anyway.
Same deal with a dragons breath, a 1 being being functionally impotent means nothing as it is standardised cooldown text used everywhere.

RAI, who knows.


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SuperBidi wrote:

I can bring the rules about durations to back up my reading but you don't have a single line to back up yours. You don't have an RAW that backs up your position.

I'm usiing the words that are written. "You can't use it again for 1d4 rounds." That's as RAW as it gets. It's also a very simple and straightforward concept. It doesn't (nor shouldn't) require the player or GM to do a deep dive into the rule book to see when the counter ticks down. Nor am I the only who reads it that way.

Quote:
That's ok if you don't follow RAW. But in a PFS environment, RAW is expected to be applied.

I think that applies more to your interpretation than mine. You're house ruling that 25% of the time, "you can't use" really means you can use. That's also counter-intuitive for a game revision that is trying to make things less complex.

Quote:
And if a character has an ability that says "once every 1d4 rounds", expect the player to strongly disagree if you decide not to follow RAW and give one extra round of cooldown to his ability.

If the rule said "once every 1d4 rounds," like it did in PF1, then I would agree. In fact, I don't know what the right answer is in PF1. But Paizo specifically changed the wording, or did you notice? It says you "can't" use something for 1d4 rounds. Categorical and fundamental difference. Using something once every round is different than saying you can't use it for 1 round. To repeat Darksol and myself, there has to be at least 1 full round, you couldn't use it. Your interpretation doesn't meet that criteria.

Quote:

As a side note, the "start your turn" rules are quite clear also:

"If you created an effect lasting for a certain number of rounds, reduce the number of rounds remaining by 1. The effect ends if the duration is reduced to 0."

Yes, the rules are clear. If that effect is a "beneficial" one, then it decreases at the start of your turn. If it's a detrimental one, then it decreases at the end of your turn.

End Your Turn p. 469 wrote:
End any effects that last until the end of your turn. For example, spells with a sustained duration end at the end of your turn unless you used the Sustain a Spell action during your turn to extend them. Some effects caused by enemies might also last through a certain number of your turns, and you decrease the remaining duration by 1 during this step, ending the effect if its duration is reduced to 0.

So if we were to agree that the cooldown should follow the Duration rules for effects, is it a beneficial or detrimental effect?


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SuperBidi wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Quote:
In an environment like PFS, I think it's the safest and most defendable position for RAW.
I disagree. The safest most consistent position is "can't use" means that you can't use the action for 1d4 rounds. As Darksol points out, there has to be an actual period that you "can't use again." All abilities are affected equally, regardless of how many actions they cost. The math is simple.

Your position is not one of RAW but one of RAI. I can bring the rules about durations to back up my reading but you don't have a single line to back up yours. You just try to find a "meaning" to rules. That's ok if you don't follow RAW. But in a PFS environment, RAW is expected to be applied. And if a character has an ability that says "once every 1d4 rounds", expect the player to strongly disagree if you decide not to follow RAW and give one extra round of cooldown to his ability.

As a side note, the "start your turn" rules are quite clear also:
"If you created an effect lasting for a certain number of rounds, reduce the number of rounds remaining by 1. The effect ends if the duration is reduced to 0."

It is, though, so I'll expand the example more to further demonstrate the point.

We have a 3 round combat. I have a breath. I use it on round 1, and roll a 1 on the D4. So I breath on round 2, roll a 1 again, and breath on round 3, ending the encounter.

The ability states that once I use the ability, I cannot use it again for 1D4 rounds. In any point of this example combat, have I had a round where I did not use a breath for a round? Obviously, no. I used breath for every round in this combat. Round 1, breath. Round 2, breath. Round 3, breath, combat ends.

At no point have I not had a round that I could not use breath, thereby breaking the intended rule that I need to have had at least one round where I could not use the ability. As such, this falls into the "Too good to be true" rules fallacy stated in the book, thus by balance and clear intention, it cannot be the way as I just described.

Liberty's Edge

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I agree with those who indicate support for the idea that you "start counting with 0" at the END of the turn you use the Ability so that you are prevented from using any such feature for at least 1 full Round if you happen to roll a 1 on the die roll.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The way I think about this is that a round is 6 seconds. It is a measurement of time which is not the same as a turn, which is when you get to act.

So if an effect states "can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 rounds" then I see that as it can't be used again for an interval of 6 seconds on a roll of 1.

So if that nasty dragon breaths on you in it's first turn (let's say it's 1:07:12 pm) and the GM rolls a 1, then the dragon gets to breath on you again on it's next turn (which will be 1:07:18 pm) as it has waited 1 round (6 seconds) before doing so.

Now if the effect stated "can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 turns" then that would change things in my mind. I would read that as a turn needs to be skipped on a roll of 1. So in the above example the dragon would only get to breath again on it's third turn (1:07:24 pm).


Wzrd wrote:

The way I think about this is that a round is 6 seconds. It is a measurement of time which is not the same as a turn, which is when you get to act.

So if an effect states "can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 rounds" then I see that as it can't be used again for an interval of 6 seconds on a roll of 1.

So if that nasty dragon breaths on you in it's first turn (let's say it's 1:07:12 pm) and the GM rolls a 1, then the dragon gets to breath on you again on it's next turn (which will be 1:07:18 pm) as it has waited 1 round (6 seconds) before doing so.

Now if the effect stated "can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 turns" then that would change things in my mind. I would read that as a turn needs to be skipped on a roll of 1. So in the above example the dragon would only get to breath again on it's third turn (1:07:24 pm).

problem is that litraly nothing in the game tracks like that.

even durations that last "rounds" always are counted on beginning or end of turns (depending if they are benefitial or hazardous)

Your approach of counting something in the middle of a turn (because that's what's happenning if you start counting 6 seconds from the middle of the turn) resembles 2nd edition adnd where spells, attack, and everything, had a variable initiative score you had to add to each action you took over your regular initiative roll.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber
shroudb wrote:
Wzrd wrote:

The way I think about this is that a round is 6 seconds. It is a measurement of time which is not the same as a turn, which is when you get to act.

So if an effect states "can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 rounds" then I see that as it can't be used again for an interval of 6 seconds on a roll of 1.

So if that nasty dragon breaths on you in it's first turn (let's say it's 1:07:12 pm) and the GM rolls a 1, then the dragon gets to breath on you again on it's next turn (which will be 1:07:18 pm) as it has waited 1 round (6 seconds) before doing so.

Now if the effect stated "can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 turns" then that would change things in my mind. I would read that as a turn needs to be skipped on a roll of 1. So in the above example the dragon would only get to breath again on it's third turn (1:07:24 pm).

problem is that litraly nothing in the game tracks like that.

even durations that last "rounds" always are counted on beginning or end of turns (depending if they are benefitial or hazardous)

Your approach of counting something in the middle of a turn (because that's what's happenning if you start counting 6 seconds from the middle of the turn) resembles 2nd edition adnd where spells, attack, and everything, had a variable initiative score you had to add to each action you took over your regular initiative roll.

What I was trying to explain is how I visualize it.

The actual game mechanic is that if the dragon rolls a 1, then at the start of its next turn, reduce the count by 1 to 0 with the dragon being able to breath again during the turn.

In my mind it has waited 1 round (but not 1 turn).


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Wzrd wrote:
In my mind it has waited 1 round (but not 1 turn).

And this is where I have issues with the argument because it hasn't actually waited for 1 round (or turn), it has waited from somewhere towards the end of one round (or turn)to the start of the next round (or turn). In the end it will have waited just as much of a round as of a turn because there is no difference of elapsed time for round or turn.

In the end I think that the problem comes from Pazio trying to do to much and ending up with too many different sorts of duration's (actions, rounds, turns, minutes and longer ones). The language for each might make sense when describing the individual action/effect but as evident by this thread it ends up lacking clarity and coherency overall.


Wzrd wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Wzrd wrote:

The way I think about this is that a round is 6 seconds. It is a measurement of time which is not the same as a turn, which is when you get to act.

So if an effect states "can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 rounds" then I see that as it can't be used again for an interval of 6 seconds on a roll of 1.

So if that nasty dragon breaths on you in it's first turn (let's say it's 1:07:12 pm) and the GM rolls a 1, then the dragon gets to breath on you again on it's next turn (which will be 1:07:18 pm) as it has waited 1 round (6 seconds) before doing so.

Now if the effect stated "can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 turns" then that would change things in my mind. I would read that as a turn needs to be skipped on a roll of 1. So in the above example the dragon would only get to breath again on it's third turn (1:07:24 pm).

problem is that litraly nothing in the game tracks like that.

even durations that last "rounds" always are counted on beginning or end of turns (depending if they are benefitial or hazardous)

Your approach of counting something in the middle of a turn (because that's what's happenning if you start counting 6 seconds from the middle of the turn) resembles 2nd edition adnd where spells, attack, and everything, had a variable initiative score you had to add to each action you took over your regular initiative roll.

What I was trying to explain is how I visualize it.

The actual game mechanic is that if the dragon rolls a 1, then at the start of its next turn, reduce the count by 1 to 0 with the dragon being able to breath again during the turn.

In my mind it has waited 1 round (but not 1 turn).

But even using that logic, it really hasn't waited 1 round, has it? It didn't use it's breath weapon at the start of it's turn, it used it during it's turn. So what you would have to do is track the cooldown to the end of whatever action (2 or 3) it used the breath weapon, then allow it to use it at that point.

And that is if you assume that each action is perfectly 1/3 of a creatures turn time, which is a stretch given some of the things that you can do with a single action, and some of the things that arbitrarily require 2 actions.

That's why this logic doesn't hold water. Nothing is tracked this way that I can think of. The only time we are ever made to look at another action is in the case of actions with requirements that your previous action was "X" action. And there is no link between that mechanic and a "cooldown".

So where does that leave us? Either the dragon has to wait 1 round, meaning it's turn comes and goes without being able to use it's breath weapon, or it can immediately use it's breath weapon again with no cooldown to speak of. Assuming the dragon rolls a 1 on it's die that is.


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N N 959 wrote:
Quote:

As a side note, the "start your turn" rules are quite clear also:

"If you created an effect lasting for a certain number of rounds, reduce the number of rounds remaining by 1. The effect ends if the duration is reduced to 0."
Yes, the rules are clear. If that effect is a "beneficial" one, then it decreases at the start of your turn. If it's a detrimental one, then it decreases at the end of your turn.

If it's an effect you created it ends at the beginning of your turn, beneficial or detrimental.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
At no point have I not had a round that I could not use breath, thereby breaking the intended rule that I need to have had at least one round where I could not use the ability.

Emphasis mine. As I said, your point is one of RAI. You may be right, but I don't know the developer intent. If you apply RAW, the dragon can breath at every turn because of the rules about duration.

Now, if you can quote me a line that actually says that you can't use it 2 turns in a RAW, I'd be interested. But right now, there has been no line to back up this ruling.


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@SuperBidi

The thing is, the restriction on Breath Weapon isn't a duration. Not really. Instead it's a nebulous "cooldown" that doesn't really exist in any other abilities that I can think of off the top of my head.

So instead of trying to shoehorn this case into "Duration" which really only addresses the duration of Spells specifically, why not just do what the ability says, and make sure that the Dragon/Kobold can't use their breath weapon again for 1d4 rounds?

I mean, if the dragon rolls a 1, and you allow that dragon to use it's breath weapon on it's next turn, can you really honestly say that it couldn't use it's breath weapon for any amount of time?

No. You can't.


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The only argument otherwise is that it says you can't use it "again", that is, the single-action/reaction cooldown defense. It doesn't say "you can't use it for 1 round". That would disqualify the current round from counting for the cooldown because I already used it this round.

Instead it says I can't use it again for one round, and there was in fact a round in which I was unable to use it again. The round I am currently in.

Pretty nuanced, and I highly doubt this is the intent, but... That's the argument.


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beowulf99 wrote:


I mean, if the dragon rolls a 1, and you allow that dragon to use it's breath weapon on it's next turn, can you really honestly say that it couldn't use it's breath weapon for any amount of time?

No. You can't.

Unfortunately, yes, I can. I've always considered a 1 meant you can use it next turn, even before entering this discussion and looking for any RAW on that.

So, we have 2 different RAI.

Right now, I think you're wrong per RAW and I disagree with your RAI. And you continue to bring intent without anything to back up your reading. I mean, in current state of the discussion, you can't say your version is RAW. You follow no rule but intent.


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SuperBidi wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Quote:

As a side note, the "start your turn" rules are quite clear also:

"If you created an effect lasting for a certain number of rounds, reduce the number of rounds remaining by 1. The effect ends if the duration is reduced to 0."
Yes, the rules are clear. If that effect is a "beneficial" one, then it decreases at the start of your turn. If it's a detrimental one, then it decreases at the end of your turn.

If it's an effect you created it ends at the beginning of your turn, beneficial or detrimental.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
At no point have I not had a round that I could not use breath, thereby breaking the intended rule that I need to have had at least one round where I could not use the ability.

Emphasis mine. As I said, your point is one of RAI. You may be right, but I don't know the developer intent. If you apply RAW, the dragon can breath at every turn because of the rules about duration.

Now, if you can quote me a line that actually says that you can't use it 2 turns in a RAW, I'd be interested. But right now, there has been no line to back up this ruling.

I used 3 breaths in 3 rounds. At what point have I had a round where I did not use a breath? None. If I have an ability that states I can't use it for 1D4 rounds, and I consequently go on to effectively ignore that limitation with no ability that expressly lets me do that (such as certain Dragons resetting on a critical hit or something), it's not a meaningful restriction, dice rolls in my favor or not.

Thus, the "Can't use for 1d4 rounds" statement becomes useless in this context, because it's not an actual period where I can't use it for a round or more. That is the RAW I am talking about. You have not had a round where you could not use a breath, thereby making it incorrect by RAW to use it consecutively. Even if you want to say your interpretation is RAW, it still invokes the RAW of "Too good to be true," thus still defaulting to my interpretation.


SuperBidi wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:


I mean, if the dragon rolls a 1, and you allow that dragon to use it's breath weapon on it's next turn, can you really honestly say that it couldn't use it's breath weapon for any amount of time?

No. You can't.

Unfortunately, yes, I can. I've always considered a 1 meant you can use it next turn, even before entering this discussion and looking for any RAW on that.

So, we have 2 different RAI.

Right now, I think you're wrong per RAW and I disagree with your RAI. And you continue to bring intent without anything to back up your reading. I mean, in current state of the discussion, you can't say your version is RAW. You follow no rule but intent.

Well, its hard to argue RAW if your current disposition more or less is that there is not suitable RAW governing this specific case.

So we have one side which bases its argumentation on the very sensible assumption that the breath cooldown is an effect created by the user and thus follows the rules for durations.

And we have the other side which rejects the notion that a breath cooldown is governed by the effects & duration rules, thus currently has no applicable RAW and needs to be ruled by common sense / RAI instead.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


I used 3 breaths in 3 rounds. At what point have I had a round where I did not use a breath? None.

You are making a confusion between rounds and turn. You used breath in 3 turns. The duration between 2 turns is a round, six seconds. If you can't use something for a round, it means you have to wait a round (six seconds) before using it again. After one round, six seconds, it's your next turn and you can use it again.

It's like if I said "You can't use it for one minute". If you used it at minute 2, you can use it again after one minute so at minute 3, and then at minute 4 and so on.

If the sentence was "You can't use it for 1d4 turns", then I would agree with you, there must be a turn when you can't use it.

Liberty's Edge

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I absolutely disagree with anyone asserting that the following is true.

Round 1 - Use this kind of limited ability > Roll a 1
Round 2 - Use this kind of limited ability again

This is so clearly against the RAW and RAI that I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone reads it any differently by any means other than intentionally trying to twist the normal meaning of words that are not at all ambiguous.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

I absolutely disagree with anyone asserting that the following is true.

Round 1 - Use this kind of limited ability > Roll a 1
Round 2 - Use this kind of limited ability again

This is so clearly against the RAW and RAI that I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone reads it any differently by any means other than intentionally trying to twist the normal meaning of words that are not at all ambiguous.

The difference in understanding is stemming from the issue that round <> round.

A game round has a pretty much clear cut and different definition from a duration round.


Themetricsystem wrote:

I absolutely disagree with anyone asserting that the following is true.

Round 1 - Use this kind of limited ability > Roll a 1
Round 2 - Use this kind of limited ability again

This is so clearly against the RAW and RAI that I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone reads it any differently by any means other than intentionally trying to twist the normal meaning of words that are not at all ambiguous.

Let's say I use an ability at round one that says: "You can't use it for one minute.". At what round will I be able to use it again for you?

Liberty's Edge

SuperBidi wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

I absolutely disagree with anyone asserting that the following is true.

Round 1 - Use this kind of limited ability > Roll a 1
Round 2 - Use this kind of limited ability again

This is so clearly against the RAW and RAI that I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone reads it any differently by any means other than intentionally trying to twist the normal meaning of words that are not at all ambiguous.

Let's say I use an ability at round one that says: "You can't use it for one minute.". At what round will I be able to use it again for you?

Round 12. You spend 10 full rounds after the one you have used it being unable to use it, the logic is no different, until the full duration of "the cooldown" has elapsed you cannot use it again.

1 - Use the Ability: Start cooldown, at the end of the turn, counter at 0
2 - At the end of the turn, counter at 1
3 - At the end of the turn, counter at 2
4 - At the end of the turn, counter at 3
5 - At the end of the turn, counter at 4
6 - At the end of the turn, counter at 5
7 - At the end of the turn, counter at 6
8 - At the end of the turn, counter at 7
9 - At the end of the turn, counter at 8
10 - At the end of the turn, counter at 9
11 - At the end of the turn, counter at 10
12 - You can use the Ability


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Themetricsystem wrote:

Round 12. You spend 10 full rounds after the one you have used it being unable to use it, the logic is no different, until the full duration of "the cooldown" has elapsed you cannot use it again.

1 - Use the Ability: Start cooldown, at the end of the turn, counter at 0
2 - At the end of the turn, counter at 1
3 - At the end of the turn, counter at 2
4 - At the end of the turn, counter at 3
5 - At the end of the turn, counter at 4
6 - At the end of the turn, counter at 5
7 - At the end of the turn, counter at 6
8 - At the end of the turn, counter at 7
9 - At the end of the turn, counter at 8
10 - At the end of the turn, counter at 9
11 - At the end of the turn, counter at 10
12 - You can use the Ability

So, you can't use 10 times in 10 minutes an ability with a cooldown of 1 minute?


SuperBidi wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Round 12. You spend 10 full rounds after the one you have used it being unable to use it, the logic is no different, until the full duration of "the cooldown" has elapsed you cannot use it again.

1 - Use the Ability: Start cooldown, at the end of the turn, counter at 0
2 - At the end of the turn, counter at 1
3 - At the end of the turn, counter at 2
4 - At the end of the turn, counter at 3
5 - At the end of the turn, counter at 4
6 - At the end of the turn, counter at 5
7 - At the end of the turn, counter at 6
8 - At the end of the turn, counter at 7
9 - At the end of the turn, counter at 8
10 - At the end of the turn, counter at 9
11 - At the end of the turn, counter at 10
12 - You can use the Ability

So, you can't use 10 times in 10 minutes an ability with a cooldown of 1 minute?

No, just like you couldn't use an ability 3 times in 3 minutes with a cool down of 1 minute. It would be twice.

Grand Lodge

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Looking at it from a Maths background it is fascinating - the underlying issue is one of rounding.

You can't use it for 1 minute?

Does it allow you to do it 5 times in 10 minutes or 10 times (or 9?)

Arguing for 5 times
Use 1 in minute 1 - the minute has already started
Minute 2 is ruled out
You again use it in minute 3

Or
you use it start of minute 1.
You can't use it for 1 minute. So you can't use it at the start of minute 2 - but you can use it later in that minute.
The 3rd use gets even later in minute 3, the fourth even later in minute 4 etc.

Or do you just say - the use itself is infinitesimal quick - so 10/1 = you can use it 10 times in 10 minutes (rounds are just rounded down to nothing). Once in minute 1, once in minute 2, once in minute 3, etc.

It doesn't matter if we replace minutes with other time units - like rounds.

The argument - you can't use it for 1 round meaning you can't use it the round after is the same logic which would lead to 5 uses - unless we allow sub minutes (well - we have 10 rounds in a minute).

But by that logic - what stops us to use sub-rounds? Mathematically it is the same as going to the next decimal precision.

There is one action where they explicitly deal with these sub-units of time: Treat wounds.

CRB. p249 wrote:

You spend 10 minutes treating one injured living creature (targeting yourself, if you so choose). The target is then temporarily immune to Treat Wounds actions for 1 hour, but this interval overlaps with the time you spent treating (so a patient can be treated once per hour, not once per 70 minutes).

So the question is - does the breath weapon action overlap with the time you can't use it (like Treat Wounds) or not.

Liberty's Edge

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mrspaghetti wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Round 12. You spend 10 full rounds after the one you have used it being unable to use it, the logic is no different, until the full duration of "the cooldown" has elapsed you cannot use it again.

1 - Use the Ability: Start cooldown, at the end of the turn, counter at 0
2 - At the end of the turn, counter at 1
3 - At the end of the turn, counter at 2
4 - At the end of the turn, counter at 3
5 - At the end of the turn, counter at 4
6 - At the end of the turn, counter at 5
7 - At the end of the turn, counter at 6
8 - At the end of the turn, counter at 7
9 - At the end of the turn, counter at 8
10 - At the end of the turn, counter at 9
11 - At the end of the turn, counter at 10
12 - You can use the Ability

So, you can't use 10 times in 10 minutes an ability with a cooldown of 1 minute?
No, just like you couldn't use an ability 3 times in 3 minutes with a cool down of 1 minute. It would be twice.

Use ability

Cool down = 1 minute
Use ability
Cool down = 1 minute
Use ability

Actually, that is 3 times in 2 minutes ;-)

Grand Lodge

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The Raven Black wrote:


Use ability
Cool down = 1 minute
Use ability
Cool down = 1 minute
Use ability

Actually, that is 3 times in 2 minutes ;-)

Another clever rounder ...

That is the 9 times in 10 minutes case

Only - you use it 3 times in 2 minutes and 3 actions and then round it down to 2 minutes overall time passed - and ignore that is can't be used until minute 3, round 4 again.


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mrspaghetti wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Round 12. You spend 10 full rounds after the one you have used it being unable to use it, the logic is no different, until the full duration of "the cooldown" has elapsed you cannot use it again.

1 - Use the Ability: Start cooldown, at the end of the turn, counter at 0
2 - At the end of the turn, counter at 1
3 - At the end of the turn, counter at 2
4 - At the end of the turn, counter at 3
5 - At the end of the turn, counter at 4
6 - At the end of the turn, counter at 5
7 - At the end of the turn, counter at 6
8 - At the end of the turn, counter at 7
9 - At the end of the turn, counter at 8
10 - At the end of the turn, counter at 9
11 - At the end of the turn, counter at 10
12 - You can use the Ability

So, you can't use 10 times in 10 minutes an ability with a cooldown of 1 minute?
No, just like you couldn't use an ability 3 times in 3 minutes with a cool down of 1 minute. It would be twice.

I would allow 10 uses in 10 minutes, you would only 9. Anyway, it ends up with the same thing: We don't read the same intent. And as such resorting to RAI to solve this issue will end up with (at least) 2 sides.

That's why I think we should focus on RAW.

Grand Archive

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"It doesn't make sense that it says that you can't use it for 1 round and then you can use it on your next turn."

*shrug*
Sure, but thems' how durations work.

You know what else doesn't make sense?

*If you cast Haste on yourself, you don't get the extra action the turn that you cast it. The duration is still ticking, but you are not benefitting.

*If you (for whatever reason) became frightened 1 during the 3rd action of your turn, it would end right after that.

There are plenty of other mechanical nonsensities. Just because it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean that the rules don't work that way.


SuperBidi wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


I used 3 breaths in 3 rounds. At what point have I had a round where I did not use a breath? None.

You are making a confusion between rounds and turn. You used breath in 3 turns. The duration between 2 turns is a round, six seconds. If you can't use something for a round, it means you have to wait a round (six seconds) before using it again. After one round, six seconds, it's your next turn and you can use it again.

It's like if I said "You can't use it for one minute". If you used it at minute 2, you can use it again after one minute so at minute 3, and then at minute 4 and so on.

If the sentence was "You can't use it for 1d4 turns", then I would agree with you, there must be a turn when you can't use it.

No, I'm not, because those are identical in duration and application, except in a reaction case (which is not being discussed here, and has it's own hangups in certain situations). What I'm arguing is that the limitation stipulates rounds that you can't use the ability for. Hence why it states that once you use the ability, you can't use it again for 1D4 rounds.

In the example I provided, you have had 3 breaths in 3 rounds, all of which took place on your turn, even though you should have had rounds where you couldn't after it's been used. It's the "What's the DC to jump across a 10 foot pit" arguments all over again.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


I used 3 breaths in 3 rounds. At what point have I had a round where I did not use a breath? None.

You are making a confusion between rounds and turn. You used breath in 3 turns. The duration between 2 turns is a round, six seconds. If you can't use something for a round, it means you have to wait a round (six seconds) before using it again. After one round, six seconds, it's your next turn and you can use it again.

It's like if I said "You can't use it for one minute". If you used it at minute 2, you can use it again after one minute so at minute 3, and then at minute 4 and so on.

If the sentence was "You can't use it for 1d4 turns", then I would agree with you, there must be a turn when you can't use it.

No, I'm not, because those are identical in duration and application, except in a reaction case (which is not being discussed here, and has it's own hangups in certain situations). What I'm arguing is that the limitation stipulates rounds that you can't use the ability for. Hence why it states that once you use the ability, you can't use it again for 1D4 rounds.

In the example I provided, you have had 3 breaths in 3 rounds, all of which took place on your turn, even though you should have had rounds where you couldn't after it's been used. It's the "What's the DC to jump across a 10 foot pit" arguments all over again.

if i debuff someone with 1 round duration debuffs, for 3 rounds in a row, i will benefit from said debuffs 0 rounds actually. Since all those debuffs will expire at the start of my turn.

a "round" is from an action to the start of your next turn.

so something lasting "1 round" is often in between when you apply it and ends beofre you act again.


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If it ticks down at the end of a round it is called out. The system establishes this.

People may arbitrarily think that is how the 1d4 cooldown abilities should work but there is no clear RAI here and expecting an unstated change to how durations are counted is a stretch.

As I said before, the ability not being able to be used again before your next turn (either due to lack of actions or reaction options) has no bearing on the situation as it is just a cooldown. It literally cannot use the ability again for one round, and as such the text is being honoured.
It is generic rules text used everywhere to give a flexible duration.

The reason the game doesn't do fractional round tracking should be pretty clear, paizo has no interest in tracking at that level of granularity.

The steps are:
1. Dragon breaths rolls a 1
2. Dragon now cannot breath again for one round
3. Duration is determined by standard duration rules as there is no exception.
4. Duration starts this turn, counts down until this creature's turn starts again.
5. Round counts down returns to creatures turn
6. Ability resets as full round has passed without it using the ability again

RAI it is unclear, RAW it is not. It might seem counter intutive to your sensibilities, RAW often is.

There are creatures still directly effected by the 1 on a d4. Iron golems, Rune Giants, Hell Hounds (and nessian warhounds, Demi Lich, Poracha, Uthul, Korred, Quickling, Viper Vine and ofc the Aolaz I mentioned before,

And of course every creature is still effected on a 2+. Or if they have abilities that would let them use the two action option twice in a round.

But let's not forget this text also applies to player abilities that only cost one action or can be made to cost one action.
E.g. dragon roar, mountain quake, dragons breath potion

This duration counting also applies to abilities like align armament, the weapon gains the effect for one round, ending when the one who used the ability starts their next turn.


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SuperBidi wrote:
If it's an effect you created it ends at the beginning of your turn, beneficial or detrimental.

Per RAW, the "cooldown" on a breath weapon is not an effect "you created." It's a rule that restricts the use of an ability. You don't create the effect, you use an ability. It's like the cooldown on Rage. You don't create the cooldown effect on Rage, you use Rage and when its done the ability is restricted.

As you do not create the effect, the counter would not start at the beginning of your turn.


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N N 959 wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
If it's an effect you created it ends at the beginning of your turn, beneficial or detrimental.

Per RAW, the "cooldown" on a breath weapon is not an effect "you created." It's a rule that restricts the use of an ability. You don't create the effect, you use an ability. It's like the cooldown on Rage. You don't create the cooldown effect on Rage, you use Rage and when its done the ability is restricted.

As you do not create the effect, the counter would not start at the beginning of your turn.

"Anything you do in the game has an effect."

"Breath Weapon Two Actions (arcane, electricity, evocation) The dragon breathes lightning that deals 12d12 electricity damage in a 120-foot line (DC 40 basic Reflex save). It can't use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 rounds."

So, yes, it's an effect, an effect of Breath Weapon. And Breath Weapon is an ability you use and as such it's an effect you created.


SuperBidi wrote:

"Anything you do in the game has an effect."

So, yes, it's an effect, an effect of Breath Weapon. And Breath Weapon is an ability you use and as such it's an effect you created.

I think you are straining the language quite a bit by reading "effect" as having the exact same context across all those instances especially with the rules meant to be using a relaxed language. Don't get me wrong, your interpretation might very well be the correct RAW and IMO the main issue here is that cool-down timers like these are poorly defined in the rules.

Thankfully this won't be much of an issue for me as there is no way that the people I play with would ever consider having a limitation such as this not actually being limiting in in-game situations. Call it a house-rule if you will but a dragon that rolls a "1" would have a round where he could act but couldn't breathe, anything less would be considered ridiculous.


SuperBidi wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
If it's an effect you created it ends at the beginning of your turn, beneficial or detrimental.

Per RAW, the "cooldown" on a breath weapon is not an effect "you created." It's a rule that restricts the use of an ability. You don't create the effect, you use an ability. It's like the cooldown on Rage. You don't create the cooldown effect on Rage, you use Rage and when its done the ability is restricted.

As you do not create the effect, the counter would not start at the beginning of your turn.

"Anything you do in the game has an effect."

"Breath Weapon Two Actions (arcane, electricity, evocation) The dragon breathes lightning that deals 12d12 electricity damage in a 120-foot line (DC 40 basic Reflex save). It can't use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 rounds."

So, yes, it's an effect, an effect of Breath Weapon. And Breath Weapon is an ability you use and as such it's an effect you created.

I'll bite. We already know the effect of a Dragon's Breath weapon. It's clearly noted in the statblock after all. It does XdX damage of X element in X line/cone.

The effect of Dragon's Breath however is NOT the limitation placed on it.

Or do you believe that the following line is in fact, a distinct effect?

CRB PG. 84 wrote:
...and you can’t Rage again for 1 minute.

So a barbarian ending a rage, for whatever reason, enacts a whole separate effect? What if their rage ends due to being made unconscious? Because their enemy dies?

A "cooldown" is not a discrete effect, it is a descriptor of how you can use, and when you cannot use, said effect. This is the same with prerequisites, like traits. Or is the "Press" trait a discrete effect as well?

TLDR: Some things are NOT effects. Some things are just what they say they are on the tin.


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Let's flip the script. Hell hounds have a breath weapon that takes only one action, and it has the same "Can't use breath weapon again for 1d4 rounds" limitation.

Hell hound uses breath weapon as its first action on its turn. Rolls a 1 for the cooldown. It can't use breath weapon again with its remaining actions this round. So far so good.

Hell hound's next turn comes up. It can't use its breath weapon this round either?

Hmm. Well now it really seems like it wasn't able to use its breath weapon again for TWO rounds, even though it "Can't use breath weapon again for [one] round".

Thoughts?


beowulf99 wrote:

I'll bite. We already know the effect of a Dragon's Breath weapon. It's clearly noted in the statblock after all. It does XdX damage of X element in X line/cone.

The effect of Dragon's Breath however is NOT the limitation placed on it.

Or do you believe that the following line is in fact, a distinct effect?

CRB PG. 84 wrote:
...and you can’t Rage again for 1 minute.

So a barbarian ending a rage, for whatever reason, enacts a whole separate effect? What if their rage ends due to being made unconscious? Because their enemy dies?

A "cooldown" is not a discrete effect, it is a descriptor of how you can use, and when you cannot use, said effect. This is the same with prerequisites, like traits. Or is the "Press" trait a discrete effect as well?

TLDR: Some things are NOT effects. Some things are just what they say they are on the tin.

Yes, the cooldown is an effect. Grognard explained it fine. As written in the rules, anything in an action description follows this rule: "If the rule is an action, it explains what the effect is or what you must roll to determine the effect."


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The duration isn't an effect, but it is most certainly being applied to an effect and thus the durations text is relevant.

Archives of Nethys: How to Read Actions

And the duration rules say

Durations wrote:
Most effects are discrete, creating an instantaneous effect when you let the GM know what actions you are going to use. Firing a bow, moving to a new space, or taking something out of your pack all resolve instantly. Other effects instead last for a certain duration. Once the duration has elapsed, the effect ends. The rules generally use the following conventions for durations, though spells have some special durations detailed on pages 304–305. For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect. This is common for beneficial effects that target you or your allies. Detrimental effects often last “until the end of the target’s next turn” or “through” a number of their turns (such as “through the target’s next 3 turns”), which means that the effect’s duration decreases at the end of the creature’s turn, rather than the start. Instead of lasting a fixed number of rounds, a duration might end only when certain conditions are met (or cease to be true). If so, the effects last until those conditions are met.

And effects (just before duration)

"Effects wrote:
Anything you do in the game has an effect. Many of these outcomes are easy to adjudicate during the game. If you tell the GM that you draw your sword, no check is needed, and the result is that your character is now holding a sword. Other times, the specific effect requires more detailed rules governing how your choice is resolved. Many spells, magic items, and feats create specific effects, and your character will be subject to effects caused by monsters, hazards, the environment, and other characters. While a check might determine the overall impact or strength of an effect, a check is not always part of creating an effect. Casting a fly spell on yourself creates an effect that allows you to soar through the air, but casting the spell does not require a check. Conversely, using the Intimidate skill to Demoralize a foe does require a check, and your result on that check determines the effect’s outcome. The following general rules are used to understand and apply effects.

It makes it quite clear that if it is to last till the end of a turn it will say "to the end of" or "through".

And by ruling otherwise it creates an inconsistency that means single actions with the same cooldown wording like the iron giant actually cannot use it for more than one round (if we are going to argue about fractions or a turn)


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
theservantsllcleanitup wrote:

Let's flip the script. Hell hounds have a breath weapon that takes only one action, and it has the same "Can't use breath weapon again for 1d4 rounds" limitation.

Hell hound uses breath weapon as its first action on its turn. Rolls a 1 for the cooldown. It can't use breath weapon again with its remaining actions this round. So far so good.

Hell hound's next turn comes up. It can't use its breath weapon this round either?

Hmm. Well now it really seems like it wasn't able to use its breath weapon again for TWO rounds, even though it "Can't use breath weapon again for [one] round".

Thoughts?

This is at least the fourth time this (one action limited use abilities) has been brought up in this thread and it has yet to be fully addressed. I think that says a lot about how this is indeed the way it is supposed to work: rolling a 1 means you can use it again on your next turn.

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