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Thing is, there's a wide spectrum between "it takes freaking Saitama to destroy even a regular shield in one punch" and "an on-level bad guy can forcefully blink his eyelids in the general direction of a shield and it'll snap in two". There was middle ground; too bad we didn't...
Sure, if you're fighting an enemy on-level with a low-level shield. But if you attack them with a weapon that's the same level as that shield, it's also not particularly effective either.
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Shields and their ideal users can basically be fitted into 3 categories: Raisers, Droppers, and Blockers.
Raisers: Embodied by monks with a spell guard shield. These are for characters who either don't have shield block or whose shields grant their best benefits without it.
Droppers: Embodied by fighter with a bastard sword and Nethysian Bulwark. Shields that are meant to block a hit or two, usually dealing damage when they do, before being dropped. At which point he fighter two hands the bastard sword and finishes the fight, then repairs the shield for the next fight.
Blockers: Embodied by a champion with a sturdy shield, plus the Shield Warden, Quick Block, and Everhand Stance feats. These characters are defined by blocking as much as possible and don't want a broken shield. Which does mean it feels a bit Sturdy or bust.
People seem to resent the existence of the dropper or that you can't have the qualities of all 3. I do get wanting to be able to branch out a bit more with the exoteric shields on a blocker. That said, specific shields are in the same boat as specific magic weapons, largely. They are cute when you get to use their gimmick, but largely your workhorse, bread and butter choice will be the boring old weapon with as many elemental property runes as you can cram onto it because that is the best damage.
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I added this feat to my game. My players have yet to reach a level where they can take this, so I have no idea how well it would work in action. There is a fighter in the party, but he seems to be focused on 1- or 2-handed weapons, as well as reach, so he may not go for it.
Durable Shield
Champion 8, Fighter 8
Add your armor proficiency level to your shield’s hardness (+2 for Trained, +4 for Expert, +6 for Master, +8 for Legendary). Your shield’s HP and BT are not changed. This stacks with Shield Ally.
This will mostly result in shields that are currently good at blocking getting way better, and shields that are bad at blocking getting marginally better, but still being pretty easily broken in 1-2 hits.
If you want to go the stats modification route via a feat without significantly affecting power level, I would reccomend something like the following.
Shield Reinforcement - General 3
Requirements - Expert Crafting
You are adept as adept at reinforcing shields as you are repairing them. You can use the Repair action on a shield that already has its maximum hitpoints to Reinforce it, and when you do it gains "bonus" hitpoints equal to the number of hitpoints it would gain from the repair check. These hitpoints are lost before the shields normal hitpoints, and do not affect the shields BT or HP.
By increasing the effective HP of the shield, you don't increase the effective Resistance of the shield (a dramatic balance shift) but you do allow it to survive more blows.
Tieing this to an existing action and skill also allows for continuity and consistency in how things already work.
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I added this feat to my game. My players have yet to reach a level where they can take this, so I have no idea how well it would work in action. There is a fighter in the party, but he seems to be focused on 1- or 2-handed weapons, as well as reach, so he may not go for it.
Durable Shield
Champion 8, Fighter 8
Add your armor proficiency level to your shield’s hardness (+2 for Trained, +4 for Expert, +6 for Master, +8 for Legendary). Your shield’s HP and BT are not changed. This stacks with Shield Ally.
Honestly, I'd suggest you are going the wrong direction with this. I don't have an issue with the amount of damage that the shields are stopping. I take issue with the shields (most specifically magical ones) being destroyed if they get used for blocking so easily at higher levels.
I'd suggest that instead of raising hardness, Id suggest it might with each raise a shield give the shield the given number of temporary HP, as that would make the shield last longer, and be less likely to be destroyed on the first strike.
Other options to save the shield. When an attack is blocked by a shield, and the attack was a critical. The attacker chooses to have the critical apply to either the target, or their shield. If they choose the target (the normal default) the damage calculation for the shield is calculated as if the attack were not a critical. (if damage doesn't exceed the shields hardness, the shield takes no damage, but damage still passes on to the target) The target then takes the critical damage as normal. If the attacker chooses to have the critical apply to the shield, then the critical only applies when calculating the damage taken by the shield. Damage to the target is calculated as if the attack were a simple success. If the hardness cancels out the damage to the target from a normal success, the target takes none, but the shield still takes the calculated damage.
This can actually simulate an critical attack actually bypassing a shield due to clever striking. It also allows an attacker to potentially attempt to disable a shield, if they so choose to.
Honestly, I'm more inclined to say that Shields, like armor are Rugged in nature, and thus instead of being destroyed when reaching 0 HP, are only Ruined. In order for rugged items to be destroyed, they have to sustain 2x their normal max HP from a single blow, or sustain that much damage over a continuous application of damage (such is sitting in a vat of acid long enough to have sustained 2x max HP damage during that continuous time).
Ruined items are beyond broken, and they can't be fixed using the repair activity. They have to be recrafted/reforged instead of repaired. Requirements for recrafting include that the crafter must be of an appropriate level to craft the item in question, must be an appropriate rank of crafter, and must have been familiar with the item (or an appropriately identical one) in a non-broken state before. Recrafting requires the complete remains of the ruined item [portions ate by acid damage are still considered complete remains as long as part of the surviving item were not taken by someone else]. (if it was ruined and parts taken by different groups, it cannot be recrafted until the portions are reunited). Recrafting requires a minimum of 1 day, and requires appropriate tools similar to repairing. For completion it requires crafting progress (first day counts for progress) of at least 10% of the value of the item being recrafted. After the first day of recrafting, the remainder of the balance of work can be paid in raw materials appropriate to crafting the item, representing replacing damaged portions out. Recrafting does not require having the formula for the item.
If only a portion of a surviving ruined item is available, the only option is to use its remains as materials for rebuilding the item from scratch from crafting. If 90% of the item was recovered, it can be counted as 45% of the necessary materials for crafting a replacement item.
I added this feat to my game. My players have yet to reach a level where they can take this, so I have no idea how well it would work in action. There is a fighter in the party, but he seems to be focused on 1- or 2-handed weapons, as well as reach, so he may not go for it.
Durable Shield
Champion 8, Fighter 8
Add your armor proficiency level to your shield’s hardness (+2 for Trained, +4 for Expert, +6 for Master, +8 for Legendary). Your shield’s HP and BT are not changed. This stacks with Shield Ally.This will mostly result in shields that are currently good at blocking getting way better, and shields that are bad at blocking getting marginally better, but still being pretty easily broken in 1-2 hits.
If you want to go the stats modification route via a feat without significantly affecting power level, I would reccomend something like the following.
Shield Reinforcement - General 3
Requirements - Expert Crafting
You are adept as adept at reinforcing shields as you are repairing them. You can use the Repair action on a shield that already has its maximum hitpoints to Reinforce it, and when you do it gains "bonus" hitpoints equal to the number of hitpoints it would gain from the repair check. These hitpoints are lost before the shields normal hitpoints, and do not affect the shields BT or HP.By increasing the effective HP of the shield, you don't increase the effective Resistance of the shield (a dramatic balance shift) but you do allow it to survive more blows.
Tieing this to an existing action and skill also allows for continuity and consistency in how things already work.
A very interesting tactic. I kind of believe that there should probably be a caveat that the temporary HP granted by Reinforcement can't exceed the shield normal HP, or your 1st level wooden buckler becomes awfully strong when reinforced by a high rank crafter. (hmm... maybe that is ok, I'm not sure)
Would you only allow this to benefit the shield used by the crafter, or can the crafter reinforce all the party's shields every morning? It brings up interesting questions/options.
A very interesting tactic. I kind of believe that there should probably be a caveat that the temporary HP granted by Reinforcement can't exceed the shield normal HP, or your 1st level wooden buckler becomes awfully strong when reinforced by a high rank crafter. (hmm... maybe that is ok, I'm not sure)
Would you only allow this to...
I mean, I personally wouldn't allow it ;)
That said, when considering the concept I think you definitely want to target Shield Durability (ie Hp) and not effectiveness (hardness), and I like the idea of tieing it to an already existing mechanic (Crafting and Repair).
If I were going to "finish" this feat, I'd probably actually add "The DC of this check is equal to a standard DC of your level." to make it non-trivial to just auto-critical a check on a Steel Shield to make it nearly unbreakable. If the DC is independent of the shield in question, that sort of thing is probably fine.
Id probably either limit it to Just One Shield At a Time, OR once per Shield per day - though arguably since Repair takes 10 minutes, it may be fine to allow one person to Reinforce multiple shields so long as the GM remembers the time it takes is intended to be the meaningful limitation.
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Sure, if you're fighting an enemy on-level with a low-level shield. But if you attack them with a weapon that's the same level as that shield, it's also not particularly effective either.
Thing is, there's a wide spectrum between "it takes freaking Saitama to destroy even a regular shield in one punch" and "an on-level bad guy can forcefully blink his eyelids in the general direction of a shield and it'll snap in two". There was middle ground; too bad we didn't...
Not really pertinent to my point, but it's my fault because I left out a word.
"An on-level bad guy can forcefully blink his eyelids in the general direction of (an) on-level shield and it'll snap in two."
Mea culpa.
And no, I'm not saying that shields in P2E are at that point, just that they're closer to that point and further away from the happy medium than I think those of us dissatisfied with shields would like.
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Shields and their ideal users can basically be fitted into 3 categories: Raisers, Droppers, and Blockers.
People seem to resent the existence of the dropper or that you can't have the qualities of all 3. I do get wanting to be able to branch out a bit more with the exoteric shields on a blocker. That said, specific shields are in the same boat as specific magic weapons, largely. They are cute when you get to use their gimmick, but largely your workhorse, bread and butter choice will be the boring old weapon with as many elemental property runes as you can cram onto it because that is the best damage.
This is a red herring. No one begrudge the Dropper. The problem is that Blocker is "sturdy or bust" and that there are only one or two options for the dropper and the aren't "on level" options for them at very many levels.
The problem is not the dropper.
The problem is "sturdy or bust."
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I think the philosophical argument over whether or not shield blocking is good or strong is kind of missing the point.
Shields are just fundamentally not well designed for the system they're put in. They're Starfinder items with leveled stats, except most shields don't have variants so you're stuck at whatever tier the item came at if you want to use it long term. They're pseudo-consumable in a game that has basically removed the concept of consumable equipment entirely (Sunder doesn't even exist anymore!).
It's an awkward mess all around. The fact that you can make it work if you play correctly is, imo, pretty much besides the point.
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I think the philosophical argument over whether or not shield blocking is good or strong is kind of missing the point.
Shields are just fundamentally not well designed for the system they're put in. They're Starfinder items with leveled stats, except most shields don't have variants so you're stuck at whatever tier the item came at if you want to use it long term. They're pseudo-consumable in a game that has basically removed the concept of consumable equipment entirely (Sunder doesn't even exist anymore!).
It's an awkward mess all around. The fact that you can make it work if you play correctly is, imo, pretty much besides the point.
Really? How are they different from focus spells, especially one like Enduring Might? Those are also X/combat, with a 10-minute activity to make them usable again.
The only time a shield is consumable is when it's destroyed, which is realistically rarely ever going to happen if you don't want it to. For instance, even the Lion Shield (level 6) can be used against the average damage of a high level 18 creature without being destroyed.
If you want shields to work as large AC buffs plus infinite-use DR X/turn, the numbers are going to have to go way down - just see the Indestructible Shield for example, which is both Rare and has 4 less hardness than the lower-level Sturdy Shield.
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We just need an equipment focused book. I imagine there will be a talisman or alchemical item that gives a shield bonus HP that is consumed first.
It seems like an obvious addition, but not one so critical that it needed to be in CRB or APG.
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If you want shields to work as large AC buffs plus infinite-use DR X/turn, the numbers are going to have to go way down - just see the Indestructible Shield for example, which is both Rare and has 4 less hardness than the lower-level Sturdy Shield.
May as well remove the "use your shield infinitely" feats then, if fighters aren't meant to use it infinitely.
Because holy cow do they get a lot of reactions to use on Shield Block. Twice per round.
No one is going to take a "get a free bonus reaction to shield block every turn" feat if they're only meant to shield block once a fight.
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If you want shields to work as large AC buffs plus infinite-use DR X/turn, the numbers are going to have to go way down - just see the Indestructible Shield for example, which is both Rare and has 4 less hardness than the lower-level Sturdy Shield.May as well remove the "use your shield infinitely" feats then, if fighters aren't meant to use it infinitely.
Because holy cow do they get a lot of reactions to use on Shield Block. Twice per round.
No one is going to take a "get a free bonus reaction to shield block every turn" feat if they're only meant to shield block once a fight.
You know they can just not take that if they don't want to focus on blocking? And that also lets them Reactive + Block, AoO + block, etc. For example, with Reactive, that lets them use all 3 actions without ever having to worry about raising their shield. That effectively turns it into another attack at second MAP.
Just because they get a second reaction that can only be used to block doesn't mean the first one has to be stuck doing that as well.
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If you want shields to work as large AC buffs plus infinite-use DR X/turn, the numbers are going to have to go way down - just see the Indestructible Shield for example, which is both Rare and has 4 less hardness than the lower-level Sturdy Shield.May as well remove the "use your shield infinitely" feats then, if fighters aren't meant to use it infinitely.
Because holy cow do they get a lot of reactions to use on Shield Block. Twice per round.
No one is going to take a "get a free bonus reaction to shield block every turn" feat if they're only meant to shield block once a fight.
You know they can just not take that if they don't want to focus on blocking? And that also lets them Reactive + Block, AoO + block, etc. For example, with Reactive, that lets them use all 3 actions without ever having to worry about raising their shield. That effectively turns it into another attack at second MAP.
Just because they get a second reaction that can only be used to block doesn't mean the first one has to be stuck doing that as well.
And the great thing about The Design is that if they DO want to use both Reactions Blocking, there is a Common rarity shield option which allows for them to do just that for multiple rounds of combat.
But as it stands, the design is absolutely about tradeoffs, through and through. As you've noted, there are clearly different types of shields and not all are intended to be used to Block / Block repeatedly.
Its fine for people to not like The Design, but its more questionable when its declared as flawed or broken. It may not be perfect, but it is perfectly functional - especially now that the extreme outliers have been patched with errata.
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If you want shields to work as large AC buffs plus infinite-use DR X/turn, the numbers are going to have to go way down - just see the Indestructible Shield for example, which is both Rare and has 4 less hardness than the lower-level Sturdy Shield.May as well remove the "use your shield infinitely" feats then, if fighters aren't meant to use it infinitely.
Because holy cow do they get a lot of reactions to use on Shield Block. Twice per round.
No one is going to take a "get a free bonus reaction to shield block every turn" feat if they're only meant to shield block once a fight.
Maybe a fighter wants to take an Attack of Opportunity with their reaction. Maybe a champion wants to use their reaction to grant an ally some damage resistance while having the shield in the back pocket. An additional reaction for Shield Block means you can do something else with that reaction.
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I've seen this mindset consistently grow bigger in the community and I find it very concerning.
Having to take risky and meaningful decisions in an RPG is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. I love the high risk high reward feel of deciding its worth risking destroying a shield to block the damage that could otherwise down me.
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I've seen this mindset consistently grow bigger in the community and I find it very concerning.
Having to take risky and meaningful decisions in an RPG is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. I love the high risk high reward feel of deciding its worth risking destroying a shield to block the damage that could otherwise down me.
Oh no one disagrees with you.
The problem is the degree of risk. How much money are you willing to risk in order to save yourself 6-8 damage?
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I've seen this mindset consistently grow bigger in the community and I find it very concerning.
Having to take risky and meaningful decisions in an RPG is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. I love the high risk high reward feel of deciding its worth risking destroying a shield to block the damage that could otherwise down me.
Oh no one disagrees with you.
The problem is the degree of risk. How much money are you willing to risk in order to save yourself 6-8 damage?
Or in the case of Encumbrance rules, you should feel the pressure to decide what's most important to carry around when you're trying to haul out the entire contents of a dungeon raid, just not before you even go in.
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I've seen this mindset consistently grow bigger in the community and I find it very concerning.
Having to take risky and meaningful decisions in an RPG is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. I love the high risk high reward feel of deciding its worth risking destroying a shield to block the damage that could otherwise down me.
The Dent rule doesn't remove those choices, you're still choosing between blocking a little with an ability vice blocking a lot with little to no ability beyond that. The issue is that pretty much every other combat-related item has multiple levels that allow the item to be improved to keep it at basically the same effectiveness across your entire career if you choose.
As it stands now, rules as written, you can block about once with any given shield around the level that they pop up. A second block will break it. In a few levels, you're now down to blocking once will probably break it, so effectively you don't have a shield block anymore. A few levels more and a single block will quite possibly destroy it if you were to determine it was worth it.
There is no way currently to upgrade any shield except the Sturdy (and Medusa's Scream for some reason) to simply keep the "block once relatively safely." Why are there not additional steps of the Arrow-Catching Shield that keeps it about one step behind the Sturdy since it's only ability is about shield blocking?
There needs to be more shields in the middle-ground, like Arrow-Catching and Reforging Shields (that can block about two before breaking at the level they show up), where they are okay/good at blocking, but also have a neat ability so there are truly options for if you want to block and NOT be relegated to the one shield for your career (and they need improved versions that keep them about one step behind the Sturdy Shield). You'd still block more with the Sturdy Shield, but that's the trade off.
Granted, the numbers in this attempt are off, but the Dent idea just keeps everything at the effectiveness of when you get it (blocking safely once, twice, or thrice depending on its base ability at the levels you originally get it). Effectively giving your shield the EXACT amount of hp it needs to stay at the same level of relevance (as far as shield blocking goes) without overshadowing the shields that are "meant to block"
I think the philosophical argument over whether or not shield blocking is good or strong is kind of missing the point.
Shields are just fundamentally not well designed for the system they're put in. They're Starfinder items with leveled stats, except most shields don't have variants so you're stuck at whatever tier the item came at if you want to use it long term. They're pseudo-consumable in a game that has basically removed the concept of consumable equipment entirely (Sunder doesn't even exist anymore!).
It's an awkward mess all around. The fact that you can make it work if you play correctly is, imo, pretty much besides the point.
Really? How are they different from focus spells, especially one like Enduring Might? Those are also X/combat, with a 10-minute activity to make them usable again.
The only time a shield is consumable is when it's destroyed, which is realistically rarely ever going to happen if you don't want it to. For instance, even the Lion Shield (level 6) can be used against the average damage of a high level 18 creature without being destroyed.
If you want shields to work as large AC buffs plus infinite-use DR X/turn, the numbers are going to have to go way down - just see the Indestructible Shield for example, which is both Rare and has 4 less hardness than the lower-level Sturdy Shield.
Champion's reaction can be used once per round (twice at higher levels) block as much or more than almost every shield with regularity, never break, and has another solid effect. A barbarian's renewed vigor can give them the effects of a shield block (or greater) every single round. A cleric's replenishment of war can give them the effects of a shield block every round without needing a separate action outside of attacking. But I get that there are other trade-offs (the cleric having to succeed on the attack + not having the hp of a fighter/champion or the barbarian having a lower AC - a very big deal).
Lion's shield is hardness 6, hp 36, bt 18. That will be broken by an average hit by level 9 (only three levels higher). Average hit. Above-average will break it earlier (but you get to choose when to block so that's less of a concern). Regardless, you effectively lose one of the core abilities of the shield (with any regularity) within about three levels and no way to improve it to simply keep the "block once before breaking".
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I love the high risk high reward feel of deciding its worth risking destroying a shield to block the damage that could otherwise down me.
Some people like "high risk high reward" and others don't. It wouldn't be such an issue if it felt truly optional: several classes start with shield block and to use it, you're either using one of the limited options that actually have staying power or treat the shield as a consumable item [and some people also don't like those in general too].
How many 1 bulk shields do you carry around in case you high risk goes wrong?
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I love the high risk high reward feel of deciding its worth risking destroying a shield to block the damage that could otherwise down me.Some people like "high risk high reward" and others don't. It wouldn't be such an issue if it felt truly optional: several classes start with shield block and to use it, you're either using one of the limited options that actually have staying power or treat the shield as a consumable item [and some people also don't like those in general too].
How many 1 bulk shields do you carry around in case you high risk goes wrong?
The fact that several classes start with the Shield Block feat does not obligate them to use it, nor does it mean that they are "wasting" it by not doing so.
The Shield Block feat essentially replaced Shield Proficiency- its no less optional than any of the other weapon or armor proficiencies you choose not to utilize.
Which is to say, its absolutely totally optional.
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Which is to say, its absolutely totally optional.
You seemed to have missed my point: IF you want to use shield block, you have to buy into either having one of a VERY small number of shields or treating them as consumable. That and I talked about how it FELT: you can disagree with me on how it feels if you want but feelings aren't objective truths.
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The fact that several classes start with the Shield Block feat does not obligate them to use it, nor does it mean that they are "wasting" it by not doing so.The Shield Block feat essentially replaced Shield Proficiency- its no less optional than any of the other weapon or armor proficiencies you choose not to utilize.
Which is to say, its absolutely totally optional.
From a class design perspective, giving shield block as part of the class does carry a cost, so not using it is 'wasting' a portion of your classes assigned abilities. Nothing is really free. If shield block didn't have some design value attached to it, it would be a built-in function of shields rather than a feat. Maybe a given person doesn't care and maybe the designers assigned a low value to it in class design and balance considerations, but it is a non-zero value.
I hope that eventual class archetypes give options to trade it out (same with heavy/medium armor on DEX fighters, etc.).
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Which is to say, its absolutely totally optional.You seemed to have missed my point: IF you want to use shield block, you have to buy into either having one of a VERY small number of shields or treating them as consumable. That and I talked about how it FELT: you can disagree with me on how it feels if you want but feelings aren't objective truths.
I'm confused because I see Cyouni comment above yours that demonstrates how even Level 6 Lion Shield can be used against average Level 18 attacks without being Destroyed, i.e. only being Broken means it is NOT Consumable but merely 1/combat that is "Refocused" with Repair.
Also confused by the focus solely on average and above-average damage ignores below-average damage attacks, which with 2E's shift from static bonuses to more dice, does vary significantly and means even at later levels there are attacks that a low level Shield can Block without Breaking (never mind getting Destroyed). Not that max damage Crits can't also threaten Shields with Breaking at low levels too, so this doesn't even seem a fundamental shift in gameplay.
Given that most characters won't even have more than 1 Reaction and might use it for something else besides Block (precluding ability to Block that round, making the question of whether they can Block every single attack against them academic), I don't see any problem that Block can become an less frequent action especially without dedication to specific gear for that. Obviously I expect anybody who dedicates Feats etc to Blocking would get such gear to maximize usage of those Feats, same as any other mechanic.
• My druid has Shield Block. Not sure why. How is it druidic to “know” how to block with a shield. And as a personal weird out - what monks are using shields? Scarves, knuckle dusters, swords - I could imagine those, but a shield as a...shield? Definitely some mixed martial art, interesting reflavoring or a multiclass character that isn’t particularly a monk. I guess a fighter who was once a monk or monk who was once a ranger etc...
• I am interested in the concept of the feat being removed and being made a function of shields.
• I’m torn between liking the verisimilitude of a) shields breaking and b) blocking part of the damage; but hate the maths* involved. It is an added headache I could do without. I agree with Squiggit’s philosophical disconnect. They (shields) feel weird alongside all other items.
• As for risk/reward - I wouldn’t as a character think about it for a moment. Murder hobos can’t spend loot if they dead. This ties into the philosophical disconnect - I’m happy to consider risks, but only when they don’t involve consumable shields.
* Yes, in Australia we say “maths”, short for mathematics, because you don’t do the mathematic on something. Pritty wyrd I noe.
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So blockers need a shield caddy if they want to do multiple consecutive combats without rest?
So blockers need a shield caddy if they want to do multiple consecutive combats without rest?
This is why we need the Kasathas back... With 4 arms, you could block at least 3 attacks. ;)
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So blockers need a shield caddy if they want to do multiple consecutive combats without rest?
'Ah, a rampaging barbarian. Suggestion?' 'The ten iron, miss.' 'Why not the eight wood?' 'The wizard mentioned a powerful druid controlling the area, miss.' 'Right, good catch. The ten iron, then.'
