I am requesting all GMs to help me in an endeavor of sorts, A joint venture, A tower of terror. A "solo" adventure.

[rorek55]

Greetings! I had an idea, an Idea that I could not and cannot do alone. It is a challenge, a test, a tournament. A tower of a godly competition!

The premise-
This would be a solo adventure, that is, each player would be embarking on the adventure solo. One GM would, ideally, run ~4 players each. Each player will be run through the exact same dungeon as the others. Only one of each class will be accepted (unless this turns into a huge huge thing). The "lore" is that each player has been selected to participate in a tournament of the gods. Where each god(player choice) selects several champions from the mortal plane(s). With the victor granted the honor of becoming their deities right hand. (which comes with immortality)

The players would start at level 1, and ideally make their way to level 20. (If they survive) With action economy against them, they would eventually take on a role similar to a big bad in normal games, that is, out action economied, yet fairly stronger than the "PCs" independently. As such, many encounters would consist of lower level/CR enemies. Example- level 5 would fight, largely, CR 2-4 enemies.

There would be a total of 40 floors to the tower, each floor consisting of a "dungeon" which the player must make their way through. These dungeons will vary, some will be filled with enemies, others, with traps and skill challenges, most with all three. Treasure will always be there as well. Every two floors would roughly represent a level up. Save perhaps level 1, and level 19. The alternative is to have each floor represent 1 level, thus making each floor more challenging and longer.

I have neither the time nor technical acumen for map making to do this alone. Nor the abilities to GM such a thing in PbP. However, I know many excellent GMs prowl these boards, and so I beseech the for aid.

Also, Not all 40 levels are planned out yet, indeed, very few of the dungeons are fully planned out, I have plans to hash out most of them, but if some of the GMs wished to make their own floors, I would give out "levels" and make sure the information was provided to other GMs.

This was an Idea I had, as I have often wondered how classes would perform when solo. Before I dedicate the full time and attention such an endeavor needs, I would like to know if there is

1. Interest in player bases
and
2. Interest in GMs.

Note, interest is not a commitment, as much needs to be further hashed out before any games are created. This is just seeing if I can find the players and GMs needed to do this.

Another aspect would be keeping track of data, namely how well classes perform, amount of time needed (days/hours) to clear each floor, number of times killed etc.

Players would be allowed, between each floor, to purchase or sell items and gear, and dedicate time to crafting (A limiter will be set, but I am unsure of what type) however no magic of any sort will allow a player to exit a floor once it is started.

These were the rules I was thinking of allowing-
25pt buy
max starting wealth for each class
max HP every odd level, then half HD+1 every even level
2 traits
all other things by the book.

Have I caught anyone's interest?

[SmooshieBanana]

What do you mean, "one of each class"? Do you mean to say no multiclassing builds? Strictly stay in your lane? What about archetypes?

[rorek55]

Multiclassing is something I have been thinking about, Its something I want to allow, but likely would limit. I can't really say more on it at this time, as I don't want to say something then go back and change it later.

Archetypes are all a go as long as its paizo.

I mean "one of each class" in a, I wouldn't want two wizards and two fighters. I understand that PF 1e is so large once class cannot cover all fronts of.. well, one class, but unless this becomes a huge thing (which I doubt) I'd rather get different classes from each player.

[Sysryke]

I'm the primary/only breadwinner in my house so time is limited, but I am interested/intrigued. I don't think I could run, but I could maybe assist with data tracking. Possibly play. I don't think dibs is an entirely equitable way to handle things, but if it comes to that, then dibs on either Druid, Summonear, Inquisitor, or chained Rogue :p

This is the only solo campaign I've ever been tempted to play.

[Oxnard Kettlebeak]

Consider me interested. . . I have little to no skill at mapmaking, but I can populate dungeons or DM, or play.

What's the plan for traps, considering how few classes get the ability to actually deal with them?

[Phntm888]

It's an interesting idea, but I don't see many d6 hit die classes getting past the first couple of floors. Even on a 25 point buy, they'll probably only have 8 or 9 hit points, and their AC will be 16 or 17 at best (assuming mage armor). In addition, their low number of spells per day will leave them heavily reliant on cantrips like acid splash (assuming they have them) or weapon attacks they aren't very good at.

Conversely, I see a lot of low base save martial characters struggling at higher levels, struggling to deal with all of the creatures that have debilitating effects that either take you out of the fight for a while or kill you outright. Fighters, Clerics and other 2+ skill point classes that don't rely on Int will also struggle heavily with skill challenges, and traps may prove difficult to overcome.

I'd suggest the following changes to the allowed character creation rules:
25pt buy
max starting wealth for each class
max HP every level
2 extra skill ranks per level
3 traits, including campaign traits from any AP (this allows more characters to get trapfinding)
Everyone gets Toughness as a bonus feat
Choice of bonus feat from the following: Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
Any Paizo archetype allowed.
All else by the book.

These ruless would give individual players more versatility and survivability, without necessarily making them more powerful.

The use of something like Hero Points or the Mythic Surge ability (NOT Mythic tiers, just the ability to spend a point and add a d6 to a roll) could also be good. These are the chosen champions of the gods, after all - they should have some ability beyond those of others.

I would also suggest that each level of the dungeon have "rest rooms" throughout - something that the players can use if they need to rest and recover their abilities. These can grow more scarce as they climb higher in the tower, but they'll be very useful at the beginning - especially for spellcasters.

[The Ghost of War]

Interesting idea and I'd like to help it take off, although I am horribly short on time so I probably could/should not commit to a DM place myself.

I second Phntm888's analysis, that many classes don't work well in such a scenario.
But I'd propose an even greater "buff" for the chosen of the gods:
Gestalt characters.

What better place than a solo, chosen of the gods game for this?
After all, what if your combination turns out to be ridiculously strong?
A one-man party with virtually no weaknesses?
AC so hight only 20's hit you?
Saves so high not even you yourself could enchant yourself?
Normally this is a real problem of gestalt games.
But in this one?
Rack up that score, Hoarder and go to the next floor!

It does also help offset some of the greates drawbacks of some classes, e.g. fighters / mages if combined with their opposites.
Out of spells? Go Enrage and roflstomp those peasants with the ripped off leg of the giant two rooms back.
Getting no skill points as the wild babarian that you are? Pick up some rogue levels and learn the important stuff as you go! Books are for weaklings anyway...

[The Archlich]

To be honest, as much as these empowerment rules can be cool, I think the challenge of making a class work on its own would be fairly great. No need for gestalt, extra skills or feats, let's be challenged :)

As long as this idea don't involve PvP I'm onboard with it. My suggestion, though, would be to allow the GMs to be solo players for other GMs. With that, I'd throw my hat with both playing and hosting for some.

[Oxnard Kettlebeak]

I think the originally stated rules you can make it as a d6 HP class, you just have to design yourself to do it-- you won't be able to waste a spell slot on Magic Missile level 1, and you probably can't min max into 20 INT, you'll need to spread your stats around and yes, rely on weapon attacks.

Probably being a race like a dwarf and using your 1st level feat on Toughness or something + a Toad familiar- that's the build I'd take for a Wizard build in this thing.

[Belafon]

I am interested, both as a player and a GM.

Actually, this could probably work quite well as a pyramid scheme. Let's see... there are 44 classes, counting unchained and alternate (antipaladin, ninja, samurai) classes separately, so a maximum of 44 players. If two GMs each ran 4 players through a level, then each of those 8 players ran 3, that would make 48 players.

Yeah, that's what I'd do. Give 8 people "priority" signups as players as long as they agree to GM for others. Put in some kind of limiter, like not allowing them to go to the 5th floor until their players have finished at least the 3rd floor. (With, of course, the understanding that some players will drop out.)

If the floors are designed to be relatively short (an hour or so), I'll volunteer as one of these player/GMs. Investigator would be my class choice.

[Sysryke]

I think balance will be key here. I like the idea of "rest rooms". Maybe allow for spots that can become safe zones through the use of appropriate tactics or abilities. Maybe sprinkle in some NPCs that could be perseuded to offer temporary aid on some floors (like healing faeries in Zelda).

I favor maximizing all stats possible ( wealth, Hp per level, etc.), but I think gestalt or extra free traits, skills, or feats would remove the challenge somewhat. At least some of this idea is about testing and comparing the capabilities of the various classes. Of course, different player's styles, tactics, and game mastery will prevent this from being utterly scientific.

I don't know how to organize this, but maybe we should invite or court some build review or advisement threads. Get the more mechanically savvy players to help all participants with optimization. As fun as this all sounds, this format isn't likely to be as flavorful on the "role" play side as a group game would be. Not a bad thing, but I think mechanics will trump concepts at least a little in this project. . . . . Unless it gets big enough to draw multiples of each class

[rorek55]

Glad to see there is a large interest in this already, thank you all for your comments and thoughts.

I don't want to use gestalt, as I would like to see how the class itself functions.

I'm giving full HD every odd level, the other idea I had was to just give full HD every level.

I think I like the small boon, how about this-

Toughness OR a +2 save feat for free
Weapon finesse free.
Max HD every odd level. Or, max hd every level.

"Rest rooms" may be okay, but they would have to be a 1 time thing per room, depending on how big the dungeon is. I'd say no more than one rest for most, but I'll have to get a better grasp on the floor and stuff to decide.

There would be no PvP, each player is in their own vacuum. I could see having some interaction for those waiting in the infinite city for the rest to finish the floor.

Also, thoughts on how to handle multiclassing? Do we want to ban it? Limit it?

[Oxnard Kettlebeak]

I mean- the "ideal" is pure classes, right?

But I think for multiclassing you'd want to solicit the proposed 1-20 build before taking the character- there are certainly builds that would be good to allow (Mystic Theurge perhaps?) but you'd probably want to disallow builds like those I usually make (2 levels monk, 1 level swashbuckler, 2 levels slayer, fighter X, ect).

I'd vote for max every other level, and no free feats.

As far as "rest" rooms- you could handle these all on a level by level basis- in the design in addition to challenges and ordinary treasure, there would be a certain amount of "help" rooms that were all unique- maybe an extra cache of scrolls and potions, maybe a malfunctioning guard robot with just enough charge left to protect for 8 hours, maybe a bead of rope trick, ect, but just left to the level designer.

[trawets71]

Interesting idea. Making these levels will require a lot of work.

Multiclassing and prestige classing will have to be addressed. I would recommend something along the lines of no more than 2 classes and their levels must be with in 1-3 of each other. If you are going to prestige class you would have to declare it when you take the first level of your second class and enter into it at the bear minimum. Once the class is completed the level restriction between original classes is gone or you can pick another prestige class.

For example MT was mentioned, it requires at a minimum 3 levels of wizard and 3 levels of cleric, other classes are available and might have different levels needed. So your first six levels would be cleric and wizard; depending on the limits you can do them in almost any order. 1C, 1C/1W, 2C/1W etc or 3C, 3C/1W etc. Once the character hits 7th level it would take MT up through character level 16. The last 4 level could be all cleric, all wizard or any combo of the two or another prestige class all together.

I wouldn't mind taking a wizard through this or maybe a eldritch knight.

[pad300]

I see people mentioning "rest rooms", but I am not clear on the concept of the whole dungeon. Do PC's have downtime/rest between each level, or is this Ironman, with no breaks between levels?

[Esha]

I think this sounds fun! I don't have the experience or time to GM, but I might be interested as a player. It would all depend on the timing and what I've got going on when it actually starts.

[Sysryke]

pad300 wrote:

I see people mentioning "rest rooms", but I am not clear on the concept of the whole dungeon. Do PC's have downtime/rest between each level, or is this Ironman, with no breaks between levels?

There is some type of infinity plane between each floor of the tower. Hasn't been fully explained yet, but this is where you would sell/trade/buy and maybe craft equipment. I would guess some rest and healing might be available here as well.

The freebies get a little complicated. No matter which feats you choose to give out, certain feats are more useful to some classes than others. A monk won't necessarily care about the save feats, and toughness or weapon finesse if given universally will be of more help to the non martial and dex classes than to the strong martial classes.

Max Hp makes sense because no one is at the mercy of the die, and this is a sort of endurance run. But the rest is and should be a challenge. For those who choose the classes with more obvious "weaknesses", that would seem to be at least part of what this challenge is all about. What choices do you make to prop up your fighters limited skills? How do you help your early levels squishy caster survive? Do the seemingly ideal classes fare better? Or do preconceptions lead to fatal errors?

[Sysryke]

Just also realized, and I am guilty of this as others. We've all been operating on an assumption of time suck. The level designing is going to be a prodigious undertaking, but actual GM duties may not take as much time as usual because the story is likely to be quite linear. People might take different routes along the floors, but the mechanics should all be pre calculated. This is basically a career long dungeon crawl.

I can't fully commit yet, but with that in mind, maybe some of us who've been hesitant could also GM.

[Phntm888]

I'd vote for Max HD at every level - as Sysryke says, this is an endurance run, and more hit points would allow someone to go longer.

For the freebie feats (if you choose to utilize them), I just found this feat that could be useful for allowing players to take instead of Toughness or a +2 save feat (since those aren't necessarily as useful to some classes as others, as pointed out by Sysryke): Cunning. While it is from the Villain Codex, an extra skill point per HD would help shore up the low skill point classes without giving everyone 2 free extra skill points. So, the options would be: Toughness, a +2 Save feat, or Cunning.

I don't think you should give Weapon Finesse for free. Swashbuckler and Unchained Rogue both get it for free already, so giving it for free either partially invalidates a class feature, or else coming up with something else to give them in its place.

If you want to allow multiclassing and prestige classes, set a limit of 1 additional class if you choose to multiclass, and only 1 prestige class. That way, you mostly get straight classes, but a Wizard wanting to do a 1-level dip in Fighter so they can qualify for Eldritch Knight isn't removed as an option. Or, if you just want pure classes, you could say no multiclassing or prestige classes - just one class from level 1 to level 20.

For rest rooms, one off rooms would be fine, allowing spellcasters or fighters to rest and regain spell slots if needed. You could also leave it to level designers to include other options. A fountain with a statue of the god Nethys, for instance, that drinking from restores a single spell slot of no higher than your highest level spell slot - 2 (minimum level 1), or something like that. You could even make them side rooms - you don't have to fight what's guarding it to complete the level, but you do have to fight it if you want to get the benefit.

[rorek55]

If everyone interested in potential working as a GM for this idea could PM so I can make a list of folk to keep communication with.

[Phntm888]

Out of curiosity, what is your plan for each level? Would each level have a theme, like "the undead level" or "the fire level"?

[rorek55]

I hadn't thought about particularly giving themes to the levels. At least, not outside of a broader sense.

I have planned for each level to have 1-3 "floors" themselves.

So, say one of the lower leveled floors, the first floor would be underground tunnels, filled with vermin, such as giant bugs (centipedes, spiders, scorpions) the second floor would be something like stoneworked mines, with humanoids living in them, (goblins/bandits/cultist) something like that. Then, if the level had a "boss", they would be on the 3rd floor of that level.

I could defiantly forsee themed floors being interesting. Such as the undead floor. Ending up with a "boss" fight with a lich or graveknight, or something akin to that.

Again, note, I haven't planned out a large majority of the later levels. So they are open to collaboration if one of the GMs had an idea or a desire to try out a specific dungeon theme.

[Sysryke]

I'm a sucker for themes, but my best skill contribution to building this is playing devil's advocate. Balance is going to be tricky here. Certain themes lend themselves better to certain classes or builds. An undead floor might favor divine casters for instance. . . . . . . Just gave myself a thought.

Not sure how logistically complicated this would be; but what about implementing some kind of more generous re-training/leveling system? What I'm thinking is that each time a character makes it through the floors to the point of leveling, they can do more than just swap a feat or allowed spell or class feature. Maybe they can switch up there build, alternating between different starting options or even archetypes. Basically, players have to stay with their one class or preset combo, but the options within their class (and race?) are still there at leveling, just like some of the suggestions on the advice for new player threads.

Alternately, maybe some of the possible floor rewards are relatively obvious clues about the content of floors to come. The difficulty of finding and understanding these clues should be minimal, but the obtainment of them should be optional to floor completion and come at some resource cost or risk. This gives players a chance to get a heads up, and make leveling choices appropriately.

Possibly merge, combine, or find some middle ground. In game I'm imagining some kind of temple or magic costume shop on the infinite marketplace between floors. Maybe the gods offer their champions some kind of temporary templates, in the form of actual templates or archetype feature add ons. If a level's floors are all themes, maybe you get a choice of three "costumes" that could help. A player is guaranteed to get some help with at least one floor, but the benefits only last for that level of play. GM's get to build and play with themes; players with specific build focuses or weaknesses get a survivabilty boost; characters get some more flavor and role play; and more options for the classes get featured and tested. Plus, because the templates are temporary, no one is stuck for several levels with dead features (unless chosen as part of their core build).

[Sysryke]

On a separate thought, as we try to generate ideas and excitement for this project, how much should we be discussing this game/concept with people in real life?

rorek55, I'm not sure of how much communication you are wanting or allowing between players. Since I would assume people will progress through the floors at different paces do to skill, style, and schedule differences, the potential for spoilers and or meta game knowledge to give some players advantage does exist. At some point we just have to go on the honor system and trust folks to stay true to the spirit and challenge of the game; but, how much would you like to control the flow of information?

Asking in particular, because I'd like to recommended this project to some of my friends, but I don't want to create a situation where we share more info in out of game conversation than we should.

[Phntm888]

rorek55 wrote:

Players would be allowed, between each floor, to purchase or sell items and gear, and dedicate time to crafting (A limiter will be set, but I am unsure of what type) however no magic of any sort will allow a player to exit a floor once it is started.

Sysryke wrote:

Alternately, maybe some of the possible floor rewards are relatively obvious clues about the content of floors to come. The difficulty of finding and understanding these clues should be minimal, but the obtainment of them should be optional to floor completion and come at some resource cost or risk. This gives players a chance to get a heads up, and make leveling choices appropriately.

I actually had some thoughts on this part yesterday. While each player goes through a self-contained solo game, they have all been chosen as champions of the gods to go through this gauntlet. With the opportunities to buy/sell and craft after each floor, it's not out of the realm of possibility that multiple players could be between floors at the same time. You could create a separate thread that allows players to RP among themselves while taking downtime - and possibly even negotiate information about future levels in exchange for item crafting or something else.

I don't know if that's what you intended for the buying/selling part, but it does give a little more life to what I'm guessing is an otherwise featureless demiplane with the Tower of Terror in it.

[rorek55]

the infinite city is anything but featureless (I used it in another game)

It a infinitly sprawling metropolis filled with souls in awaiting judgement, or the souls of those who either failed or "withdrew" from the tower tournament. I didn't expand on it too much due to it being a side bit to the main idea I had.

[Sysryke]

Bump. Same question different thread. Any updates, and do you need any help?

[Steffanio]

Hi, this seems interesting, any updates? I´m interested in playing and maybe running for one or to other players, though I have not run a PbP before.

[rorek55]

I'm working on fleshing out the lower floors before I move things to a Google doc. However I haven't had the most time to work on it further, due to working 60 hour weeks and other commitments.