| Senhor_R |
Hi there guys! I'm here more for suggestions about a homebrew alternative class archetype for bards in my currently campaign.
So, the idea is pretty simple: a bard with nine levels of spellcasting, like a sorcerer. However, changing the classes always is something dangerous.
My issues about a bard with 9 levels spellcasting is:
> The bard would gain slow BAB, lose good REF save and gain only 4 + skill points with a skill list without any skills that use str and dex. How about it?
> When I thought about the spellcasting, my ideia was make the sorcerer/wizard list be used in conjunction with the regular bard list, but when a spell match in the two lists remain the one with the highest spell level - and limit the spells of the sorcerer list only to enchantment, ilusion, transmutation and divination. What did you think?
> Which kind of abilities it would retain and which ones it would lose? Inspire courage, competence and other performances would make the class overpowered when combined with the full spellcasting?
> If the bard retain light armor proficiency and the ability to cast spells with it, it would be unballanced?
So... Waiting for advice!
| Xethik |
I think you've got a pretty good basis.
You could compare to the Sublime Chord Prestige Class from D&D 3.5. I think it was in Complete Arcane, but if you do some Googling you can probably find more.
Bard hit die, 4 + Int Skills, slow BAB, gets access to both Bard spells and Sorcerer/Wizard spells of 4th level or higher, Bardic Knowledge, half Bardic Music per day, as well as some unique Bard Music usages. Keeps casting in light armor.
Class skills (keep in mind this is 3.5) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).
Sublime Chord was overpowered, though. The reasons being:
a) Due to the Prestige Class requirements, you could do Bard 7/Anything 3/Sublime Chord and achieve full casting benefits with 3 levels that don't advance casting
b) Getting 6th level Bard spells before "intended" led some pretty broken spells for their level. With your take the higher level of the two approach, it mostly solves that, but the problem persists for Bard 5/6 spells that don't appear on the Wizard/Sorcerer list.
c) Sublime Chord's underwhelming BAB, Hit Die, and skills could be all but eliminated by progressing its spells with another PrC. Sublime Chord's main feature is full casting, but you can still get that with another PrC.
Your approach has eliminated a. C was a generic problem for full casters in 3.5 that doesn't exist in Pathfinder and I think has been eliminated for you. The only concern would be a "Bard" prestige class with full casting advancement that is expecting you to come in with 6th level spells, not 9th. I'll have to look through Paths of Prestige/Paths of the Righteous, but I'm not familiar with anything.
B is partially resolved with your changes, but I think you could go further. The class could use the Wizard/Sorcerer list but add 1st level Bard spells at 1, 2nd level Bard spells at 4, 3rd level Bard spells at 7, 4th level Bard spells at 10, 5th level Bard spells at 13, and 6th level Bard spells at 16. You could probably use the lower of Bard/Wizard spell level in this case. You get the advantage of using lower level spell slots for more powerful spells, but have to wait until a Bard of an equal level could cast it.
I've been out of the loop in terms of official content, but I'd be curious if there was a full caster archetype that gets to cherrypick off the Bard spell list. That would be a good comparison point.
| bitter lily |
What makes a bard a bard?
The minute you start talking about sacrificing performance abilities, I start wondering why you're calling this class a bardic one.
As for the schools available, I don't know why you have Transmutation on the list. (Maybe there's a reason, but I just don't see it right away.) I like Divination, Enchantment, & Illusion.
Unfortunately, what I'd be inclined to do is so far different from what you want that I don't think I can help. I'd try to come up with an archetype for Bard (full bard stats & 2/3 casting) that allowed using Bardic Performance to spontaneously cast any sorc/wiz spell from the Divination, Enchantment, & Illusion schools of a level that the character could cast as a bard. This is no escape from 2/3 casting, but it means that a bard of this archetype could cherry-pick from those 3 schools independently of their (bard) spells known, at a cost of maybe 1 round of performance per spell level, as a standard action. It would represent tremendous flexibility within a few schools. Maybe broken flexibility -- I'm just tossing this off to see if I can tempt you into keeping bards as my image of bards.
{Added: I can see it this fast: this archetype would actually have to be similar to an arcanist for these spells. They'd have a "songbook" and have to prepare specific songs for the day, sadly, but then could use them the way I described -- spontaneously, in exchange for performance rounds.}
What would get replaced? My immediate candidates:
At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action.
[...]
Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.
Or maybe yes, you'd select specific performance types and substitute each school in turn.