It's the Paladin...lol
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No one is playing a fighter in my campaign, but I have read everything that has been posted.
Ok ok, but doesn't the Magus also have a spell point pool that he can use to enchant his weapon and/or reclaim used spells? That has also been overlooked. You all make decent points, but again, this ability to make 2 melee attacks with teh SAME HAND seems to fly counter to the rest of the rules. The Magus is a fighter/mage and should not be able to out attack a fighter. Having the Spellstrike/Spell Combat abilities as I think they work makes for a great balance, giving him that extra melee attack puts him over the top imo. Still not as bad as a Druid with a leopard pet...lol Thanks guys, have a great weekend! Ravingdork, your example reminds me SO much of my friend playing the Magus and his ability to min/max! LOL Thanks for the chuckle man!
I see what you are saying James, the Fighter class gets bonus feats, but the Spell Combat and SpellStrike skills are more akin to the Bravery and Armor Training class skills the Fighter gets.
These damage assumptions all account for Feat expenditures for the Fighter, which are not taken into account for the Magus (including NOT having to have TWF for better bonus; -2). Also, it seems to me that in your example Grick it would be: Magus standard action: 1 attack + spell (using Spell Strike)
dunebugg, this seems to me to suggest that when Spellstrike is used in conjunction with Spell Combat the Magus may cast the touch spell through the weapon as part of the attack AND cast a spell with the off hand. Not make a melee attack that delivers the touch spell AND then make a second melee attack with the same weapon and hand. The differentiation is the off hand use, which seems to be consistent throughout the rules in this way. For example, a fighter cannot charge and make BOTH his attacks even if he has the TWF Feat because charging is a full-round action, nor can he move his move action speed and make both his attacks, yet the Magus can cast a spell, attack with his weapon then attack again despite the fact that Spell Combat is a full round action??? It just doesn't jive in my head. I am not being argumentative in any way, and I hope no one is misconstruing what I am saying as belligerent or antagonistic. While Grick's description is appreciated and flows logically, the extra attack seems to fly in the face of ALL other rules.
Found this in another thread on Spellstrike, it seems to contradict what is being said. Again, my problem is NOT with Spell Combat skill by itself, not Spellstrike by itself. It is the, in my opinion, assumption that the Magus gets ANOTHER melee attack after using these two abilities in conjunction.
"Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Casting a spell is a standard action, so the magus wouldn't get secondary attacks. So, as a standard action, he can cast a touch spell or cast the spell and also attack with a weapon with both attacks resolved as one melee attack which does both the damage of the spell and the weapon. At least, that's the way I'm reading it. But if you move and cast touch spell in round 1 and then use your full attack on round 2, I understand you can make both attacks, the first one delivering the chill touch. "as part of a melee attack".
Jason Bulmahn
It seems to me to be enough of an advantage to be able to Spellstrike as a standard action in the round (thus casting a spell AND making a melee attack as well as moving during one round), and more on par with other 2nd level special abilities. Plus you avoid having to touch anything that may physically do you harm from touching it. *shrug* Also of note, a fighter type that takes Two-Weapon Fighting Feat is still -3/-4 when using that attack and the attack comes from the secondary weapon, and characters without TWF suffer a -6/-10! The -2 for the Magus is NOTHING in comparison. Even when Fighters get to a high enough level (6th I believe) The 2nd attack they are granted is at -5.
I have the same issue with Druid pets in Pathfinder. They should not out-tank the Fighters. lol
I appreciate your defense of the Magus class, and I think it is a cool class as well. But Magus class gets feats as well, and all other things being equal the Magus unleashes MUCH more damage than other classes at these lower levels. While the case was made for multiple goblins, one of my issues is the "boss" killing potential this power has at low level OR the player killing power it has at low level (if used against the party).
Hmm, explain to me how a 2nd level fighter or barbarian can get 3 attacks and do 6-24 points of damage in one round? That's IF he doesn't score a crit and with no other Feats to assist in the attacks. That stat also uses the above example of a Magus with a 12 Str. Not to mention if the enemy is wearing metal armor, the Magus using Shocking Grasp will be +3 to hit (which gives him a +1 after the -2 for Spell Combat). Oh, and then there is that whole magic pool to make the weapon magical thing. lol
So let me be sure I have this straight. If you are a 2nd-level Magus, you can make a weapon attack with Spellstrike and discharge a spell while getting full weapon damage, then make ANOTHER weapon attack using Spell Combat? The only penalty being the -2 to hit?
6 MINUTES!!! Methinks I shall burst... *runs amok amok amok*
Exactly five. None fantasy related (have never submitted anything fantasy, although I did editorial for a friends game once). One magazine article with less than 24 hours notice for deadline. You seem to think that money is what is most important here, or at least the determining factor in what's good. I'd rather be a Van Gogh than a Pollack any day. Or a Donaldson over a Jordan to bring it back home to fantasy (although Jordan more proves the point about lack of strict guidelines...yeesh!). Anyway, don't wanna do battle with you sir. It just struck me odd that the topic was brought up, and I am opposed to going quietly into that good night, and often choose the road less-traveled.
Hee...there was a book (by Camus? Sartre? Some other French guy?) about a man who has been rewriting the first sentence of his novel-to-be for the last 20 years because he hasn't quite managed to turn it perfect...so knowing when to go "that's good enough" is quite important too :) It was "The Plague" by Camus. The guy never got his book started because he kept altering the "fantastic" beginning. Nice reference!
Wow Krome, that is a pretty jaded look at things. You really have to seperate who you are writing for, and what you are writing. Screenplays, novels, etc are much less restricted (as pointed out by the SNG example) and most books are pretty much a matter of if the publisher likes what you have creatively written and submitted to them, not a matter of some format.
Smeazel, I was just saying that, based on what Clark posted, it seemed that items might be rejected for having a backstory. The idea that under production you have a certain limitation of space is certainly valid, but that was covered in the 200 word limitation, and is not under question. My submission certainly has more creative, Wondrous Item details than backstory, but I am a creative person, and the item I made just fit so well with the backstory elements that they became one and the same. It is not "So-and-so the Archmage created this for X use" at all.
I'm a little confused regarding the whole "backstory" issue. I know there was a suggestion that this was not the best way to go, but it was definitely NOT a rule regarding the contest itself that you could not. In fact, a question was asked that was placed in the FAQ regarding use of Golarion and other Pathfinder products in the contest, and the answer was, yes, you could use the background material. Now, why else would you use the background material if you were not going to extrapolate on the item itself? Just curious, and hope that backstory was not criteria for immediate rejection as it was not stated in the rules. My opinion; if you can create a decent wondrous item AND background given the confines of the 200 words, you should certainly not be rejected automatically.
Phoenix, AZ
You know, what I find really funny about this whole topic is that there are a large number of posts on other boards (not sure about here) that talk about how horrible all the "Complete" series of books were for 2nd Edition, how useless they were. Funny thing is, they were mostly just what people HERE are asking for; roleplaying supplements. They mostly had ideas for different types of class styles within whatever Complete Book you chose, or different ways to view that class type. It just goes to show you, you can't please all the monkeys all the time! I would recommend those books to any of you searching for roleplaying supplements.
THIS! With the added sentiment that, as the DM you have the ability and right to include MORE creatures should your party be cake-walking the encounter, even in a pre-packaged adventure. Up HPs to max, add a couple points of AC, give the monsters a weapon that is one up in damage output from what the encounter originally said, or just plain add more monsters. It won't change the EL of the encounter (if your players were matched to it and are walking through it, there was obviously something misconstrued in the formula, probably on the player side), make your players EARN that experience! It's your JOB! =)
Ugh, that brought back memories of how experience points used to be awarded individually instead of to whomever took part in the encounter. I remember the painstaking plod of keeping track of who did how many hit points of damage to try and keep it a little more fair from the "glory seekers" who liked to turn and kill the monster on it's last legs. Then there was experience for gold pieces (thieves ruled there!) and magic items...
Play up to the full of themselves aspect. Use it against them! My group once took a job from a man to enter another's residence and retrieve an item for him. Turns out they had unlawfully entered a fine and upstanding member of the communities house who also happened to be a relatively high ranking wizard (which he told them when he captured them!). They were pretty uptight at being duped, but there were certain clues along the way, and since they too were full of themselves, they didn't bother to check who their source was, or who their target was. That nipped that in the bud!
I thought the idea behind Pathfinder was to continue support of 3.5OGL with little tweaks to the system where needed. I don't think they set out to re-invent the proverbial wheel. Their system is support for their product line, which has already made a little money off me, and I'm not even a subscriber (yet). Golarian (adventures and world supplements), for me at least, is the meat and potatoes, where Pathfinder RPG is like a great side dish that complements the meal.
If it's a system you created (house-rule), there shouldn't be a problem with copyright as you are presenting it as an alternative to the current system. Has there not been a lot of people posting rules and classes and whatnot for Pathfinder on these boards?
Mister Light Dragon, I think you might have misunderstood what he was saying there a little. He was suggesting that the DEEDS of the characters should have more impact in the world, rather than their personalities/backgrounds which are (or should be) defined by the players themselves. I do not think that implies the game was meant to be purely tactical. In fact, I would argue that the reason AD&D was not given "roleplaying rules" in the first place, was to allow absolute freedom for the players and the DM BOTH in creating the story. The rules are there to moderate combat and spells and things of that nature, which is why they dominate the rule books. Otherwise, why would TSR have made a game and called it a roleplaying game when they could have easily continued in the miniature battle sense under which the concept was conceived? They surely would have made more money (at the time) given that the roleplaying genre was not even really invented at that point...unless you count charades. As the topic states, Roleplaying is so much more than combat. Roleplaying does not require rules to happen or to be fair. That is why there are no rules for it. Don't get me wrong, I think it is GREAT that the system introduced skills and feats to allow you to make a character that will not be the exact clone of someone elses of the same race, class, level and stats. The Skills in particular added a LOT (some would say too much) to the roleplaying determinations. It was accepted that the DM runs the game and you lived by his rules, or (as in my personal case) you find a new game. That thought still prevails with house rules, different ways of handling things and level of roleplaying; all as diverse as the people who play the game. Just some thoughts. BP529 - The types of players you are referring to will remain firmly entrenched with their instant gratification, low-workload video games or opt for tabletop miniature or board games, not look for roleplaying games. So, you're wrong-ish? =p Why do people continue to insist that you cannot have roleplaying without a set of rules to define it? The players handbooks (from 1st Edition to 3.5) ALL give the basics on how to roleplay. They give general ideas of how each race views the world, how each class fits/views/has a place in the world, skills that define the more social aspects of the character, in order for YOU the player to extrapolate on and create the personality you want to play. The game is then broken into interaction between the Dm and the players (the DM presenting a scene, the players reacting to the scene, lather, rinse repeat). SOME of this interaction is combat, more or less depending on your particular style of play, and for that there are rules which allow the DM and players to arbitrate through an unbiased system to determine the outcome. Admittedly, 1st Edition did a much better job explaining the roleplaying concept than the latest editions have, and I will not go into a lengthy treatise on marketing and broadening your audience here. But all the games are written in a way to fire the imagination, which is where YOU, the player, come in, NOT the rules.
Hmm, Flickr, Photobucket, MySpace, or Facebook should work. Then just link that site here in your messages. I'm sure there are others methods that would be easier/quicker. These were just off the top of my head...there's too much stuff bouncing about up there usually for me to pay attention to the small details.
Wow, Erik made ME want to relive Greyhawk! lol Good persuasive writing. He should get a job in gaming. ;)
I agree, Warhammer Fantasy RPG had some of the deepest, darkest flavor EVER! Unfortunately, most of the players at that time could not get their heads around the idea of starting out as something less than awesome (Rat-Catcher for instance), so it kind of fell by the wayside. It was my second gaming love after D&D. *sigh* My comments were not directed at you personally SquirrelyOgre man. Well, the Choose Your Own Adventure was a little. *cowers, wondering what the attack routine of a Squirrel-Ogre might be*
Kirth - non taken sir. I used to be a hippy, until I met some more of them and realized precisely the point you made. =) I have never claimed this is a stupid topic, or useless. I was just trying to spread a little fun in a drearyish topic. Flu + Insomnia + boredom I suppose. (See how I brought that back to math!)
The latest campaign I started is 3.5 Core Rules only. We are trying to determine where the supposed flaws lie.
...pedantic, eh? I meant that in the "b: one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge" way since somehow my personal commentary seemed to be viewed as some sort of attack on your personal character. It was certainly not meant to do that.
My concern was that you seem to be stripping the rules down mathematically in a way that removes all the fun from the game, and in fact discounts it as irrelevant due to the perceived "flaws" in the system itself. It has been my concern for a while now that people everywhere are being stripped of their imaginations by the idea that everything somehow needs to make logical sense in order to be good. That leaves out RP, Love, Friendship, Happiness...none of which are logically necessary to survival, but yet somehow, despite their chaotic nature, still seem to be sought after.I was just trying to offer a counterpoint, if you will, to a problem that is obviously vexing to some, by calling for a mental "unreality check" in hopes of inspiring you mathematically inclined people to stop for a moment and smell the unlogical sunshine. I certainly meant no offense, well, until the pedantic remark, which was only supposed to be mildly insulting as the way you were treating my innocent posting was most certainly categorically implied. I apologize for that affront sir. Carry on!
There IS precedent for this in D&D, the optional Instant Death Crit where if you roll two natural 20's (to hit, then when confirming a crit) then confirm again, the target dies. But more than likely the Killer Queen was an aspect of plot, rather than rules mechanics. Story and roleplaying SHOULD supercede rules/logic in the RP world whenever possible, especially in situations where it makes the game more dramatic or fun. As long as the DM/Player contract is adhered to, there should be no problems. Trust and respect are earned over time, not something a DM should just demand because he is running the game.
I have not really read a lot of the Golarian setting having stumbled upon Paizo quite by accident (fortuitous accident!), but it seems to me that the world has a disparity because it is not all created by the same developer. Is this the case? I am only relatively familiar with the Darkmoon Vale area, which seems to have been fleshed out mostly by the adventures that have taken place there, then solidified in the Guide to Darkmoon Vale product.
They have these. They are called Choose Your Own Adventure books. Why is everyone so afraid of the DM making decisions? I feel your pain in some ways, as I spent years with a controlling DM who refused to expand the game and insisted that he was "god" and therefore unquestionable at the table. This went as far as him writing "scripts" that he wanted us to follow, or saying things like "You're character would NEVER do that!" It rankled all of us to the point that I eventually took over DMing, and the old DM now sits alone at home, surrounded by his old AD&D books (he refuses to adapt as a DM or play in my games since 3.5 "is not D&D") and no one to game with. Regarding party balance; doesn't anyone get together to make characters for a new campaign anymore? "I'll let you have my chicken wings if you let me play the fighter type this time!" That is where balance is achieved, backgrounds are fashioned, and where the DM gets in his head how he will need to gear the campaign based on the players and the characters they create. This is where the magic happens!
Blaring Horn of Sarcasm ? Oh wait, that might be TOO cool...
DnD STARTED Roleplaying sir, rose-colored glasses or not! The system will reward you the same experience points for overcoming an encounter whether you kill it, talk your way by it, bribe it, or sneak through (as long as you NEEDED to get past it to accomplish your objective anyway). You sound like you'd be a great player. It is unfortunate that you have not had better experiences, but it is not the rules...In every example you give it is either the DM hackin on you for roleplaying, or another player taking advantage of the rules in some way. There are NO fixes for that...well, legal ones anyways.
You invited me (from the other post), remember?
What you all seem to overlook is that Roleplaying is it's OWN reward. It makes me sad that most of what I have read here boils down to players wanting A) More Skills B) All characters to be somehow equal and C)rules to dictate their imagination. I would cry, but's it's too close to Christmas. Sorry you have all had these bad experiences with DMs or Players who steal your thunder to the point you want rules to regulate them. Take back your power friends! Rise up and make your case, or find other players who share your personal view of roleplaying. I am certain in my game you would find more fun (and pizza) than derailed games based on character builds. Stay alive wherever you are, we WILL find you! Merry Christmas n stuff... P.S. The rules are pretty clear that you garner experience for overcoming the encounter...not necassarily killing it. Some things NEED to be killed! (like the Kobold King). "Sometimes, dead's better." - Pet Cemetary
Isn't it up to the DM to maintain balance of play? Knowing your players? There was WAY too much math going on up in there for any fantasy rp game! My first rule is if you want to use splat books, you have to purchase 2, one for yourself, one for the DM (me). My second rule is keep it simple stupid. Do you really need another splat book to define your character? This is supposed to be more Art and less Science after all. Emphasis on roleplaying, story-crafting. My players are reluctant to use extreme builds against me, because they KNOW they will see it later, made evil and coming for them. I have yet to play or run a game where the high BAB player does all the work while the "poor" low-BABs huddle in the back waiting to be saved. Class balance is there for a reason. Grunt the Warrior will never cast spells. Does Grunt worry? Herby the Mage (who wanted to be a dentist) will never feel the satisfying crunch of muscle, bone and sinew as his sword slices into his enemy, but he WILL reduce the gesticulating LichOMage with his Disintegrate and feel very satisfied. Dexter the Rogue will never be able to remain in a stand-up fight like Grunt, but he will chuckle endlessly as he tumbles past yet another attack (he prefers not to be scarred after all), and pivots to unleash the organs of his opponent. Divvy the Cleric is content with his abilities to aid his companions, he knows he will shine when the Undead rise and so takes solace in that. These games were never meant to be designed as solid chunks of logic! Magic doesn't function there even. Relax, breathe deeply, now exhale and create fun!
Oh, the Title doesn't count towards the 200 words??? I'm officially removing my earlier hug from you Mr. Wertz! *chuckles maniacally as the pressure of the contest builds* Though I am rather fond of Holy Hand Grenade references...
It is my belief that NO game surpasses another (ruleswise) for roleplaying possibilities. If you prefer a game with more social skill rules than anything else, then obviously D&D is not for you and maybe Exalted is. Claiming that D&D is neither fair nor fun for roleplayers is absolutely ludicrous. Your character should come from your imaginations heart, as should the DMs NPCs and his determination of how people and things react to your decisions as characters.I can only conclude those who require more rules for roleplaying have either had very bad experiences with DMs taking them for a ride, or just are incapable of exploring their own imaginations without rules as guideposts to lead them by the nose through their characters "experiences". That is NOT roleplaying.
SKILLS LIST FOR GODSDOG10 - Read/Write (English), Math, Computers, Fencing, Swimming, Climbing, Digging, Craft (Poetry), Craft (Origami), Craft (Models), Craft (miniature painting), Gaming, Carousing, Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Astronomy), Knowledge (Politics), Knowledge (Women), Knowledge (Psychology), Drive, Ride (bikes), Ride (skateboard), Ride (horses), Ride (snowboard), Spurious Logic... Man, I must be pretty high level! And that doesn't cover all my skills not to mention Ranks for each. But what can you tell about ME as an entity from that list? If you met me, would you have any idea how I would react to whatever was said? Am I a decent person? Do I anger easily? Do I let people walk all over me? Am I clever? Smart? Dumb? Charismatic? Carefree? Who knows...Skills obviously don't define me.
There IS a Skill System, and it covers most aspects outside of combat that occur. My point of view has been that a fully fleshed out Skills/Rules system covering EVERY aspect of the social part of the game is not needed, and that the DM is there for this very reason; to be the deciding factor in any given situation that may not be covered by rules.
Samuel Weiss, I laughed so hard I think it knocked the Flu right outta me! That was freakin well-thought out and executed. Kudos!
I think the game HAS come a long way since it's inception. We tried to have our old DM run a 3.5 campaign and he completely disagrees with the new system, saying the DM should have the control of the game. I tried to explain to him that Skills and Feats add a LOT to character development (as opposed to the generic classes from AD&D, every class of the same race will be the same) and the roleplaying aspect of the game as far as character uniqueness. Is the system open to abuse? Most definitely! What system isn't? Ask my friend about his half-dragon, fighter/warlock with the spiked chain! lol Anyway, the old DM has his issues which basically come down to his inability to keep track of things. Therefore, more rules in the players hands is a bad thing, and using miniatures prevents him from randomly moving his monsters to wherever he wants to; a syndrome we used to call Wizards on Rollerskates. But I digress.
Let me clarify something; I am in NO way being scornful, uptight, or making fun of how anyone else chooses to play the game. I am merely trying to have a dialogue with my fellow gamers regarding certain aspects of the game. My opinion = your opinion, not better or worse. Please use this as a disclaimer for ANY of my posts. You will know if I am being condescending, cynical, or sarcastic...trust me. We all have something in common, for better or worse, we are GAMERS! Let us celebrate this Brotherhood (or Sisterhood) of creativity. I tend to write off the cuff and from the heart; it keeps me honest. Now, on with the show! =)
I'm in, and as excited as a little school girl!
According to my Word program, yes. Even gp is a word. I was really excited to have to include a Skill category. *grins*
Woot! *hugs Vic, then comes to his senses* Sorry man.. =)
Isn't Eberron the world that was ruled by giants who enslaved Elves? I was pretty stubborn about my transition from AD&D and never experienced the world even after converting.
I TOTALLY hear you Set! I also could NOT preview what I wrote, nor would it allow me to access the BBCode tab. All that beautiful setup... It better not have changed the format to something outside the rules parameters! You shouldn't need to be a BBCoder to submit your pretty work anyway! =p The confirmation should still exist on the RPG Superstar main page. It will thank you for your submission right below the graphic for the contest.
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