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Several classes were accidentally missing an important limitation for 10th level spells. In the following class features, add “You can’t use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots.”
Page 121: Miraculous Spell
Page 133: Primal Hierophant
Page 207: Archwizard's Spellcraft
so i guess the idea that the wizard was the best with 10th level spells was a lie
is there even any reason for this class to exist anymore?
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So people layed Wizard for 18 lvls so at the last two they get more lvl 10 spells?
Anyway, it was obvious that the lvl 10 slots thing was a mistake looking at the spontaneous casters feature, and it was in the too good to be true having the triple of slots at that lvl.
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So people layed Wizard for 18 lvls so at the last two they get more lvl 10 spells?
Anyway, it was obvious that the lvl 10 slots thing was a mistake looking at the spontaneous casters feature, and it was in the too good to be true having the triple of slots at that lvl.
that is funny because i remember a lot of people claiming that was a feature and using it to claim wizards were great because of it
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If you can't see any use for one more spell of each level (and two more of the highest, max 9th), that's really on you in my opinion.
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Wizard is still a perfectly fine class, Archsage02.
Replace every Wizard in a party with a Bard and you won't be missing anything. Literally everything a Wizard can do, a Bard does better. Buffing, control, blasting, utility...and that's not even getting into spell slots!
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so i guess the idea that the wizard was the best with 10th level spells was a lie
is there even any reason for this class to exist anymore?
Being the only class that has mechanics for specializing in a school of magic, having the potential for having the most top level slots aside from 10th level or the ability to swap out prepared spells. There's also being an arcane prepared caster that isn't forced to have a familiar/fewer slots.
I think the wizard could use a little boost, but it has its place in the game.
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so i guess the idea that the wizard was the best with 10th level spells was a lie
is there even any reason for this class to exist anymore?
Being the only class that has mechanics for specializing in a school of magic, having the potential for having the most top level slots aside from 10th level or the ability to swap out prepared spells. There's also being an arcane prepared caster that isn't forced to have a familiar/fewer slots.
I think the wizard could use a little boost, but it has its place in the game.
It does have a place.
As the Bard's performance stool.
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i would say having a familiar is better than having a spellbook because the familiar can somewhat defend itself or run and hide
witches get a patron and that opens a door of infinite possibilities to your backstory:
it could be a half of your soul that you lost in a near death experience when you were yet to be born
it could be a distant relative of great power that wants to guide you into restoring your family's glory
it could be your own character from a previous game (funniest option in my humble opinion)
i think that is worth more than some slots
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Bards are very good. Bards are also not Wizards. Occult and Arcane lists have overlap, but it's not so much that one obviates the other — they focus on somewhat different things. Arcane's generally got more mechanical variety. Bards are showy and sustain-focused via a number of discrete focus cantrip options, Wizards have the option to cast magic outside the public eye and focus on sustain in a different way via a broader selection of spells. Bards do a little of everything and do it well, Wizards focus on traditional spellcasting things like making them land more often, swapping and preparing more than anyone else, and countering/reflecting other spells more practically than other classes can.
Bards have more flavorful and powerful focus spells, for sure, and more interesting feats, but Wizards have their strengths, and they have a different flavor and mechanical focus that can appeal to different players. They could use a boost in Secrets of Magic, but they aren't useless, and they certainly aren't just a Bard-.
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The whole “Wizards have the most top level spell slots” argument has been used since launch to justify their general lacklustre design.
The “they’re fine” crowd seem to have such a very low bar.
Maybe if sorcerers also had 3 slots a level the argument could be made, but honestly there isn’t much special or exciting about the Wizards design.
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Now that end game argument is no longer valid.
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Bards are very good. Bards are also not Wizards. Occult and Arcane lists have overlap, but it's not so much that one obviates the other — they focus on somewhat different things. Arcane's generally got more mechanical variety. Bards are showy and sustain-focused via a number of discrete focus cantrip options, Wizards have the option to cast magic outside the public eye and focus on sustain in a different way via a broader selection of spells. Bards do a little of everything and do it well, Wizards focus on traditional spellcasting things like making them land more often, swapping and preparing more than anyone else, and countering/reflecting other spells more practically than other classes can.
Bards have more flavorful and powerful focus spells, for sure, and more interesting feats, but Wizards have their strengths, and they have a different flavor and mechanical focus that can appeal to different players. They could use a boost in Secrets of Magic, but they aren't useless, and they certainly aren't just a Bard-.
Any buff or debuff a Wizard can do, a Bard can do better. Any damaging a Wizard can do, a Bard can outpace with their focus cantrips on martials (and a party without one, maybe two martials, is pretty atypical). Any utility spell a Wizard has, a Bard has enough of, if not more in other ways that a Wizard can't match. And obviously, Bard has better feats, focus spells, proficiencies, spell list...
There is maybe one or two benefits a Wizard has over a Bard, and that is free heightening and spell versatility with preparation. But honestly, an Occult Witch is stronger than a Wizard, even if the Familiar is 75% useless (though less useless for a Witch since they get more powers from Familiars), simply because they get a better spell list, and better focus powers by comparison.
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Bards are very good. Bards are also not Wizards. Occult and Arcane lists have overlap, but it's not so much that one obviates the other — they focus on somewhat different things. Arcane's generally got more mechanical variety. Bards are showy and sustain-focused via a number of discrete focus cantrip options, Wizards have the option to cast magic outside the public eye and focus on sustain in a different way via a broader selection of spells. Bards do a little of everything and do it well, Wizards focus on traditional spellcasting things like making them land more often, swapping and preparing more than anyone else, and countering/reflecting other spells more practically than other classes can.
Bards have more flavorful and powerful focus spells, for sure, and more interesting feats, but Wizards have their strengths, and they have a different flavor and mechanical focus that can appeal to different players. They could use a boost in Secrets of Magic, but they aren't useless, and they certainly aren't just a Bard-.
Any buff or debuff a Wizard can do, a Bard can do better. Any damaging a Wizard can do, a Bard can outpace with their focus cantrips on martials (and a party without one, maybe two martials, is pretty atypical). Any utility spell a Wizard has, a Bard has enough of, if not more in other ways that a Wizard can't match. And obviously, Bard has better feats, focus spells, proficiencies, spell list...
There is maybe one or two benefits a Wizard has over a Bard, and that is free heightening and spell versatility with preparation. But honestly, an Occult Witch is stronger than a Wizard, even if the Familiar is 75% useless (though less useless for a Witch since they get more powers from Familiars), simply because they get a better spell list, and better focus powers by comparison.
I think this is the first time I've seen someone say the occult list is better than the arcane list. I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I've always thought arcane was the most powerful, with my main criticism being that it's unfocused. Why do you think occult is better?
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I think this is the first time I've seen someone say the occult list is better than the arcane list. I'm not going to say you're wrong, but...Bards are very good. Bards are also not Wizards. Occult and Arcane lists have overlap, but it's not so much that one obviates the other — they focus on somewhat different things. Arcane's generally got more mechanical variety. Bards are showy and sustain-focused via a number of discrete focus cantrip options, Wizards have the option to cast magic outside the public eye and focus on sustain in a different way via a broader selection of spells. Bards do a little of everything and do it well, Wizards focus on traditional spellcasting things like making them land more often, swapping and preparing more than anyone else, and countering/reflecting other spells more practically than other classes can.
Bards have more flavorful and powerful focus spells, for sure, and more interesting feats, but Wizards have their strengths, and they have a different flavor and mechanical focus that can appeal to different players. They could use a boost in Secrets of Magic, but they aren't useless, and they certainly aren't just a Bard-.
Any buff or debuff a Wizard can do, a Bard can do better. Any damaging a Wizard can do, a Bard can outpace with their focus cantrips on martials (and a party without one, maybe two martials, is pretty atypical). Any utility spell a Wizard has, a Bard has enough of, if not more in other ways that a Wizard can't match. And obviously, Bard has better feats, focus spells, proficiencies, spell list...
There is maybe one or two benefits a Wizard has over a Bard, and that is free heightening and spell versatility with preparation. But honestly, an Occult Witch is stronger than a Wizard, even if the Familiar is 75% useless (though less useless for a Witch since they get more powers from Familiars), simply because they get a better spell list, and better focus powers by comparison.
It has stronger debuff and equivalent buff spells without losing a whole lot of damaging spells, plus has a passable healing spell that Arcane cannot acquire.
Occult and Primal are probably the two dominant spell lists in the game simply due to their sheer flexibility and application combined with the relevant power they encompass, with Arcane behind it, and Divine being dead last.
I don't really see any spells on the Arcane list that make me go "Yup, that's a reason I'd choose this over Occult or Primal." Whereas Primal can throw Fireballs and Heals and Hastes at the same time, and Occult can throw Synesthesia along with Vampiric Touch/Exsanguination, plus have utility spells like Wall of Force available as well.
As I've stated before: There is nothing the Arcane spell list (and by relation Wizards) can do that the Occult spell list (and by relation Bards and Occult Sorcerers and Witches and now soon to be Summoners) can't do.
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Now that end game argument is no longer valid.
Its definitely less powerful than having extra 10th level slots.
It doesn't change the fact that Wizards still have the most high level slots for the vast majority of their existence.
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I think Archsage20 was the one who was most convinced that the extra 10th level spells were the best part of being a wizard. Many of the people who will (still) defend the wizard will point to the extra spell per level +1 extra highest (now maxed out at 9th) spell as a pretty good trade off for slightly weaker focus spell options than the druid and no amazing OP focus cantrip like the bard. As well as having the arcane spell list instead of the occult.
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Now that end game argument is no longer valid.Its definitely less powerful than having extra 10th level slots.
It doesn't change the fact that Wizards still have the most high level slots for the vast majority of their existence.
It’s 1 level slot over a sorcerer per level, at the cost of cutting your total spells per day dramatically.
It’s not PF1 anymore, low level spells can be just as effective as higher levels, depending on effect.
Plus Spell Substitution isn’t an inherent ability to all Wizards, it’s a thesis choice. So only a subset of Wizards will have it.
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Now that end game argument is no longer valid.Its definitely less powerful than having extra 10th level slots.
It doesn't change the fact that Wizards still have the most high level slots for the vast majority of their existence.
But that was not the argument. One of the main standout abilities touted in these "wizards are good" arguments is the huge number of lvl 10 slots they were gonna get at lvl 20. Now that argument is gone.
Having a few higher level slots has already been clearly shown to be matched by other abilities other classes get. Given spells work 50% of the time at best, then wizards basically have an ability that works about half the time that is limited in nature.
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... Any damaging a Wizard can do, a Bard can outpace with their focus cantrips on martials (and a party without one, maybe two martials, is pretty atypical).
Even without getting their damage from supporting martials, at 13th level Occult also get access to a better AoE damage spell than Wizards (arguably) ever get.
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The errata hurt Wizards. I do not think that it shifts them overly much into the unplayable realm except for the extreme optimizers. But, to be fair, they might have already been there before the errata for most of the optimizers anyway.
The loss of 10th level slots were disappointing.
The errata to drain bonded item was neat. Admittedly, I ignored the previous limitation and used it as it is now.
The biggest disappointment to me was the shift in runes and staves. I accept it. It really nerfs gishes. Runed-up staves were (from my perspective) the best thing that made gishes really solid. They were never on the power level for the extreme optimizers. But for the rest of us, it made them pleasantly playable. I can still work with what it is now, but my characters mechanical actions will be far sillier. *shrug* It is what it is. He'll now be grabbing onto the stave that is permanently affixed to his back to cast those spells when they are needed and wield a runed-up staff.
Just because they are not the best at nearly anything that they do does not make them bad. You are correct that Spell Substitution is not inharent to all Wizards. That said, it is an option that allows wizards more versatility than any other spellcaster (with the caviat that one has a well tended spellbook).
P.S. While Visions of Danger is a good aoe damaging spell, its weakness lies in it dealing no damage if a creature saves. It is quite good though.
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Being the only class that has mechanics for specializing in a school of magic
Look, we can debate if Wizards are good enough and all the other stuff, but this, this is first class bull.
Wizards that specialise in a school of magic don't really get anything noteable from it. They get extra slot, if they can fill it (Transmutation still doesn't have a Cantrip, for example), and a Focus spell that is mostly garbage, or at best useable.
Most importantly, they are not any BETTER at spells from their school of specialization. They don't have any better numbers when casting them (DC/duration/damage/whatever), they don't get better action economy with them, they don't dispel them better, they don't get access to special spells...
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Being the only class that has mechanics for specializing in a school of magicLook, we can debate if Wizards are good enough and all the other stuff, but this, this is first class bull.
Wizards that specialise in a school of magic don't really get anything noteable from it. They get extra slot, if they can fill it (Transmutation still doesn't have a Cantrip, for example), and a Focus spell that is mostly garbage, or at best useable.
Most importantly, they are not any BETTER at spells from their school of specialization. They don't have any better numbers when casting them (DC/duration/damage/whatever), they don't get better action economy with them, they don't dispel them better, they don't get access to special spells...
I admit I almost added a line in there about how the specialist mechanics are admittedly lacklustre, but whether or not you like how the specialist mechanics work (I'm not a fan personally, but I also dislike the flavor of specializing in general) but wizards are unarguably the only class that has specialist mechanics.
There are whole threads agreeing on the fact that wizards are bland and need a change in their focus spells/feats.
But I also disagree on the fact that they're less powerful than other spellcasters.
Here's a repost from another thread:
f I were to play a wizard, I would probably abuse spell blending. He's the only class to get that option and boy does it look good on paper.
I mean, a 8 level specialist wizard has:
2 lvl 1 spells
2 lvl 2 spells
5 lvl 3 spells
6 lvl 4 spells
How's that for staying power ? Twice as many high level slots as a bard or a druid, half as much as a sorcerer.
In a game where heightened spells are incredibly useful and low level spell tend to lose steam, being able to unload on average two big hitters per fight could be worth way more than a focus spell.
At said level 8, you're a druid using the much-loved tempest surge for 4d12 single target ? Well let me use enervation or heightened fireball or even confusion.
I agree, it's just theorycrafting, but most people discussing the wizard seem to disregard spell blending, either dismissing thesis altogether or assuming a wizard would take spell substitution or improved familiar.
Hell no. If I were to make a wizard, I'd fling more spells than you can count, baby. And the higher level I get, the bigger an advantage it becomes.
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I feel like this conversation is incredibly distracting from the power level of Wizards. If you give Wizards bonus 10th level slots, they become the best casters in the game... at levels 19 and 20.
If a person believes that Wizards are terrible from level 1 to 18, why would the class suddenly be saved if it was good at levels 19 and 20? Are people really going to play a class if they think it's only going to be worthwhile in the late endgame? Most players aren't even going to make it that far.
I think the only conclusion you could possibly draw from this thread is that if you thought Wizards were bad before... you'll still think they're bad. If you thought they were good, you'll still think they are good.
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Well it’s makes them worse in an “all things considered” sense. However it is mainly due to community sentiment.
Much of the discussion around Wizards being “okay” is that they have more higher level spell slots than other casters, within a particular build (A specialist school with the Spell Substitution thesis). If the effectiveness of that build takes a hit, then so to does the supposed balance of the class as a whole.
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The more I play, and really comb the spell list, the more gems I find that fill in really well at lower levels. My primary character is a cloistered cleric at level 7and I often find myself wishing I had just one more spell per level.
Our party has had nearly no down time for crafting or buying items (1 2 week break at level before hitting level 5), so we are way behind on loot that has not been found in game, meaning that almost everything we have is standard AP drop stuff so we have lots of weapons with runes on them but haven't been able to translate any of that over into useful stuff for casters.
As a result, if you are using 2 slots a level on general utility spells, which makes all of the difficult nature stuff a lot easier, then you get 1 combat spell a level plus all your healing boosts. Which is shame because between you have some absolutely brutal battlefield control options for different kinds of combats spread out across your list and it is hard to justify taking any spell that is not going to be immediately useful to the party in almost every combat situation, whereas our party wizard gets to be a lot more playful with his spell list than I do, unless we get to a situation where we are able to spend a day doing recon on our encounter site. When we do, then he still comes out ahead on getting to select more of those incredibly useful to the situation spells than I do.
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whereas our party wizard gets to be a lot more playful with his spell list than I do, unless we get to a situation where we are able to spend a day doing recon on our encounter site. When we do, then he still comes out ahead on getting to select more of those incredibly useful to the situation spells than I do.
I would argue that's not because Wizard is so good, but because Cleric is hit with double whammy of having the worst list (Divine is really bad compared to other 3) and being expected to have the slots dedicated to healing.
Honestly, Paizo messed up by giving Clerics font instead of a Focus healing spell.
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whereas our party wizard gets to be a lot more playful with his spell list than I do, unless we get to a situation where we are able to spend a day doing recon on our encounter site. When we do, then he still comes out ahead on getting to select more of those incredibly useful to the situation spells than I do.I would argue that's not because Wizard is so good, but because Cleric is hit with double whammy of having the worst list (Divine is really bad compared to other 3) and being expected to have the slots dedicated to healing.
Honestly, Paizo messed up by giving Clerics font instead of a Focus healing spell.
I dont get this at all.
The more I run games, the more I think that Cleric is the best caster after Bard by a significant margin.
The Divine spell list plays better than it looks, and while it's not the best at anything it covers a lot of ground. It also has the best disable spell in the game from 3rd level on, as well as a solid array of debuffs and damage dealing spells, it you can deal with their conditional nature.
Its pretty trivial to pick up a healing Focus spell via Blessed one if you want to, but I dont know why you would as a Cleric - Font is, in most adventuring days, significantly superior.
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whereas our party wizard gets to be a lot more playful with his spell list than I do, unless we get to a situation where we are able to spend a day doing recon on our encounter site. When we do, then he still comes out ahead on getting to select more of those incredibly useful to the situation spells than I do.I would argue that's not because Wizard is so good, but because Cleric is hit with double whammy of having the worst list (Divine is really bad compared to other 3) and being expected to have the slots dedicated to healing.
Honestly, Paizo messed up by giving Clerics font instead of a Focus healing spell.
I dont get this at all.
The more I run games, the more I think that Cleric is the best caster after Bard by a significant margin.
The Divine spell list plays better than it looks, and while it's not the best at anything it covers a lot of ground. It also has the best disable spell in the game from 3rd level on, as well as a solid array of debuffs and damage dealing spells, it you can deal with their conditional nature.
Its pretty trivial to pick up a healing Focus spell via Blessed one if you want to, but I dont know why you would as a Cleric - Font is, in most adventuring days, significantly superior.
Bards can cast Haste, Clerics can't (except maybe certain deity choices, but by no means a guarantee). Bards have Inspire Courage, Defense, and Dirge of Doom, usable all day in most every combat with the option to boost or linger as needed. Clerics get Heroism, which is limited in application and takes high level spell slots (which can be used for other useful spells) to utilize. Bards have spells like Phantasmal Calamity, Vampiric Exsanguination, and Synesthesia. Clerics get maybe one of those, and their substitutions are not great.
I mean, other than getting access to a better Heal spell and maybe a couple undead-killer spells, Bard and Occult list come out on top here.
whereas our party wizard gets to be a lot more playful with his spell list than I do, unless we get to a situation where we are able to spend a day doing recon on our encounter site. When we do, then he still comes out ahead on getting to select more of those incredibly useful to the situation spells than I do.I would argue that's not because Wizard is so good, but because Cleric is hit with double whammy of having the worst list (Divine is really bad compared to other 3) and being expected to have the slots dedicated to healing.
Honestly, Paizo messed up by giving Clerics font instead of a Focus healing spell.
I dont get this at all.
The more I run games, the more I think that Cleric is the best caster after Bard by a significant margin.
The Divine spell list plays better than it looks, and while it's not the best at anything it covers a lot of ground. It also has the best disable spell in the game from 3rd level on, as well as a solid array of debuffs and damage dealing spells, it you can deal with their conditional nature.
Its pretty trivial to pick up a healing Focus spell via Blessed one if you want to, but I dont know why you would as a Cleric - Font is, in most adventuring days, significantly superior.
Bards can cast Haste, Clerics can't (except maybe certain deity choices, but by no means a guarantee). Bards have Inspire Courage, Defense, and Dirge of Doom, usable all day in most every combat with the option to boost or linger as needed. Clerics get Heroism, which is limited in application and takes high level spell slots (which can be used for other useful spells) to utilize. Bards have spells like Phantasmal Calamity, Vampiric Exsanguination, and Synesthesia. Clerics get maybe one of those, and their substitutions are not great.
I mean, other than getting access to a better Heal spell and maybe a couple undead-killer spells, Bard and Occult list come out on top here.
I legit think you may have misread my post. I said Clerics are best AFTER Bard.
Bard is, in my opinion, the best Class (let alone Caster) by a mile, and the incredibly excellent Occult spell list contributes significantly to that.
Playing for second place though, I dont think Divine is a bad Spell List and Clerics are in the running (again, IMO) for second best single Class Feature with Divine Font (compositions are The Best, imo - again Bards).
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Paizo, nerfing 2e spellcasters even further?
:surprised_pikachu:
Diety selection matters a lot for clerics. The 3 extra spells you get added to your list are easily as important as the weapon choice and the domains.
But even more important to the cleric spell list, between heal and harm, you could easily fill your top two levels of spells with powerful combat options that heighten effectively through the entire game. Having 3 top level/next highest harm spell memorized, assuming that you have a healing font means that you sit their undoing a boss monsters entire round each turn with heal spells until it gets tired, moves in to attack you, and then you can nova on it in a massively painful way. Which is probably the #1 reason clerics can't get more spell slots, because their nova potential is too high, but to say that the divine list makes for a weak caster is a big mistake.
My party was away on a wilderness exploration mission and these are the spells I was memorizing at 6th level:
1st: 1 Bless, 1 Air Bubble, 1 purify food and drink (we don't want to have to make fort saves against disease everytime we make camp and have to eat and drink)
2nd: 1 Heightened Ventriloquism, 2 restorations (we are often getting poisoned and occasionally enfeebled, even so, I was tempted to switch these out for harm spells and probably would have used them more often).
3rd: Dream Message, Wanderer's guide, Dispel magic.
Most players would probably switch out the dream message and the wanderer's guide spells for top level heal or harm spells, but our party needs me to guide us through the wilderness and wanderer's guide is an unbelievably good spell for exploration mode when you have a location you are headed to. The dream message has allowed us to coordinate operations with allies in 2 separate cities while we have spent the last 2 weeks zipping through dense wilderness. Its narrative power, but incredibly powerful narrative power.
Now that we hit 7th level, we have used 4th level silence to trivialize a bad ass monster with a lot of spell casting and sonic powers, and that dispel magic at 4th level is an absolute brutalizer because we face a lot of very powerful magical threats. We've finally found a fairly static "dungeon" where we could rest the night before and focus on combat feats and I am only now getting to play with heroism, and seeing how it is a much better option than inspire courage, if there is only one party member you really need to boost, and you don't want to waste 1 action a turn for two short combats or one extended combat. (I play a bard in PFS and everyone loves Inspire courage, but nobody waits for you to cast it before acting, and then all the casters cast spells with saving throws, and you realize you are affecting about 3 rolls a turn, which isn't nothing, but spending an action every round of combat to give 3 +1s to attacks and maybe 5 +1s to damage, isn't a non-cost action
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Part of the reason people think that the Arcane list is so good is because of the idea that its the most versatile. Having the most spells.
But thats not really true in PF2. Paizo gave the occult and primal lists a lot of the spells that used to make Wizards so great.
It really doesn't help that Bards were originally only casting 6th level spells while having the best buff. Now that they are a full cast and have the best buff, while also getting a lot of the previous Wizard exclusives... yeah Arcane lost way too much.
Looking at specific school is even worse. I mentioned this before, but Transmutation lost a bunch of spells to Evocation and Conjuration. Not counting all the spells that are just gone.
Objectively speaking, Arcane did have the most spells (I use past tense because I haven't updated my spreadsheet to account for the APG), but roughly 2/3s of the list was shared with occult. They also had the fewest unique spells, with every other list having at least twice as many.
Hopefully Secrets of Magic will help adjust some of those numbers, but given some of the comments the designers have made regarding how they approach creating those lists, I'm a little doubtful. Though at the very least I don't think it will get worse.
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I legit think you may have misread my post. I said Clerics are best AFTER Bard.
Bard is, in my opinion, the best Class (let alone Caster) by a mile, and the incredibly excellent Occult spell list contributes significantly to that.
Playing for second place though, I dont think Divine is a bad Spell List and Clerics are in the running (again, IMO) for second best single Class Feature with Divine Font (compositions are The Best, imo - again Bards).
So I did. But IMO, both Primal and Arcane would outrank Divine on a regular basis, even in actual play. Primal has the same access to healing and undead slaying combined with some of the blasting and utility of Arcane. Arcane doesn't heal, but has much more utility options and more blasting capabilities, and has buffs on par with Primal.
Divine might have more unique buffs compared to them, but those are largely poached by Bards, who do that all day, every day, with no significant resource cost. I suppose if this was a specific spell list comparison, Divine would have a place, but a Bard overwriting an entire spell list with their kit is just too powerful for any class to be able to do.
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I legit think you may have misread my post. I said Clerics are best AFTER Bard.
Bard is, in my opinion, the best Class (let alone Caster) by a mile, and the incredibly excellent Occult spell list contributes significantly to that.
Playing for second place though, I dont think Divine is a bad Spell List and Clerics are in the running (again, IMO) for second best single Class Feature with Divine Font (compositions are The Best, imo - again Bards).
So I did. But IMO, both Primal and Arcane would outrank Divine on a regular basis, even in actual play. Primal has the same access to healing and undead slaying combined with some of the blasting and utility of Arcane. Arcane doesn't heal, but has much more utility options and more blasting capabilities, and has buffs on par with Primal.
Divine might have more unique buffs compared to them, but those are largely poached by Bards, who do that all day, every day, with no significant resource cost. I suppose if this was a specific spell list comparison, Divine would have a place, but a Bard overwriting an entire spell list with their kit is just too powerful for any class to be able to do.
Part of the issue, in my opinion, is that Calm Emotions exists and it alone elevates the Divine spell list above Primal - Primal has more blasting against a wider range of targets, but I dont think the margin is enough to overcome a truly insanely powerful 2nd level disable (plus, Divine Blasting is generally "good enough" against the majority of foes players face, and there's enough non-blasting you won't be put out if you find yourself against foes that are immune).
Arcane actually has enough non-damage utility that I would, in general, rank it above the Divine list.
Theres also the matter of class Support - I'd put Cleric significantly ahead of other Divine Spell list classes (Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch) because the rest of their kit supplements it so well. Free heals and expanded spell access based on deity is huge for Clerics. As a class, I'd even put it ahead of Non-Bard Occult casters, as even though the spell list is amazing they don't get anything that competes with Divine Font.
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I legit think you may have misread my post. I said Clerics are best AFTER Bard.
Bard is, in my opinion, the best Class (let alone Caster) by a mile, and the incredibly excellent Occult spell list contributes significantly to that.
Playing for second place though, I dont think Divine is a bad Spell List and Clerics are in the running (again, IMO) for second best single Class Feature with Divine Font (compositions are The Best, imo - again Bards).
So I did. But IMO, both Primal and Arcane would outrank Divine on a regular basis, even in actual play. Primal has the same access to healing and undead slaying combined with some of the blasting and utility of Arcane. Arcane doesn't heal, but has much more utility options and more blasting capabilities, and has buffs on par with Primal.
Divine might have more unique buffs compared to them, but those are largely poached by Bards, who do that all day, every day, with no significant resource cost. I suppose if this was a specific spell list comparison, Divine would have a place, but a Bard overwriting an entire spell list with their kit is just too powerful for any class to be able to do.
Part of the issue, in my opinion, is that Calm Emotions exists and it alone elevates the Divine spell list above Primal - Primal has more blasting against a wider range of targets, but I dont think the margin is enough to overcome a truly insanely powerful 2nd level disable (plus, Divine Blasting is generally "good enough" against the majority of foes players face, and there's enough non-blasting you won't be put out if you find yourself against foes that are immune).
Arcane actually has enough non-damage utility that I would, in general, rank it above the Divine list.
Theres also the matter of class Support - I'd put Cleric significantly ahead of other Divine Spell list classes (Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch) because the rest of their kit supplements it so well. Free heals and expanded spell access...
Well, Calm Emotions does have the Incapacitate trait, so it's not some low level spell that can have powerful effects even at high levels, compared to spells like Sanctuary, Fear, or Slow. It also requires sustaining it for it to maintain effectiveness, and even after the spell ends, hostilities will most likely resume depending on the enemy; a major part of the encounter may have been nullified, but there are still threats abound.
It could be worth it to use high level slots for, to help keep mooks at bay, but most equal or higher level threats will either disregard it or dispel its usefulness real fast. But those are now slots that aren't used for newer or higher level spells, or even completely different spells, and as those spells get added to what's available, it becomes more and more difficult to justify those heightening choices.
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I feel like the PF1 mantra of "don't build around capstones" shouldn't be totally tossed out, FWIW. While more games reach the upper echelons of powers than used to (there's an AP volume every 6 months that puts the PCs at level 20), you're still going to spend most of your time not being there. Things like Bond Conservation should be taken because they're useful when you get them, not because they're useful 12 levels later.
10th level spells shouldn't be staples anyway,they're the apex of a spellcaster's power that you only use when it's particularly meaningful.
Plus the reason that the wizard (or any class) should exist has much more to do with "it fulfills the fantasy of playing kind of character" than "it is mechanically superior at this specific thing."
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I feel like the PF1 mantra of "don't build around capstones" shouldn't be totally tossed out, FWIW. While more games reach the upper echelons of powers than used to (there's an AP volume every 6 months that puts the PCs at level 20), you're still going to spend most of your time not being there. Things like Bond Conservation should be taken because they're useful when you get them, not because they're useful 12 levels later.
10th level spells shouldn't be staples anyway,they're the apex of a spellcaster's power that you only use when it's particularly meaningful.
Plus the reason that the wizard (or any class) should exist has much more to do with "it fulfills the fantasy of playing kind of character" than "it is mechanically superior at this specific thing."
Too bad that, for a Wizard, they are one and the same.
Razmir being a super high level Wizard nearing the cusp of immortality falls apart fast when he could be a Druid or a Bard and have better tools to access his latent power and be better considered a "god."
Nex and Geb are two extremely powerful Spellcasters who are basically at war with each other. I imagine their battles would be more legendary with access to the power and utility a Bard has compared to a Wizard.
And I imagine there are numerous other in-lore "wizards" who are just basic Arcane schmucks who can sling average spells that are so easily trounced by Occult and Primal spellcasters.
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How to make NPC wizards potent enough to match their role in the lore/history- give them unique/rare feats. Done. Nothing says Nex doesn't have a feat to give him a new 10th level spell slot every 10 minutes. We don't have rules for mythic tiers but "some people have mythic power" is still a thing in the diagesis. Razmir's power was never in his ability to bend reality with magic, it was in his ability to manipulate people, his talent for theatrics, and his considerable organization he has built to suppress dissent- the whole thing would work if he was a 6th level wizard too.
One of the reasons that special NPCs are special is that they have things that PCs can't get (your infernal sorcerers can't hand out Thrune contracts, and your alchemists can't make Sun Orchid Elixir either.)
The main reason that so many movers and shakers in the setting are Wizards has less to do with "how good Wizards are in a fight" than it does with the fact that they tend to be very intelligent (so they make plans, and have theories) and ego driven. At a certain level of political power, "how good you are in a fight" barely matters. Like the one nation on Golarion that literally elects leaders via "beat something formidable in a one-on-one fight" tends to elect Barbarians anyway.
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How to make NPC wizards potent enough to match their role in the lore/history- give them unique/rare feats. Done. Nothing says Nex doesn't have a feat to give him a new 10th level spell slot every 10 minutes. We don't have rules for mythic tiers but "some people have mythic power" is still a thing in the diagesis. Razmir's power was never in his ability to bend reality with magic, it was in his ability to manipulate people, his talent for theatrics, and his considerable organization he has built to suppress dissent- the whole thing would work if he was a 6th level wizard too.
One of the reasons that special NPCs are special is that they have things that PCs can't get (your infernal sorcerers can't hand out Thrune contracts, and your alchemists can't make Sun Orchid Elixir either.)
The main reason that so many movers and shakers in the setting are Wizards has less to do with "how good Wizards are in a fight" than it does with the fact that they tend to be very intelligent (so they make plans, and have theories) and ego driven. At a certain level of political power, "how good you are in a fight" barely matters. Like the one nation on Golarion that literally elects leaders via "beat something formidable in a one-on-one fight" tends to elect Barbarians anyway.
Or it's justified in lore because Paizo wants it to be, mechanics be damned. All I'm saying is that if I ever wanted to make a PC aspire to be a rival to any of those famous spellcasters, a perfectly valid character goal, I never could, simply because the powers of a Wizard do not reach that high, even at 20th level with a fully optimized build; a Bard or Druid would reach the levels being spread upon better than a Wizard would.
Even if you want to implement Rare or Unique feats (which have been stated by Paizo not to be a form of power creep, more to represent the availability of such things in setting), it's not like I can just acquire them, nor would I even be aware they exist unless the GM makes some crap up, which is homebrew and not an actual Paizo-published option. Yes, Mythic isn't out (yet), but there is nothing in the lore to suggest these spellcasters are also Mythic in power and nature. They are legendary NPCs who have done great things and have created an interesting story for themselves that many could barely hope to reach, even many others who have reached the pinnacle of their career. And who's to say Bards or Druids or Sorcerers won't get their fair share of equally special and/or powerful Rare/Unique feats?
The irony here is that you're suggesting Razmir would be best suited as a Sorcerer or even Bard compared to being an actual Wizard, whom in PF1 had a canonical way to be immortal, which was what Razmir was peddling as false information the whole time: That he is a living god in the flesh. As for whether it would work if he was a lower level character, highly doubtful considering the elevation and permutation of the rumors he has. He is no less than 15th level, having Legendary in Deception and maybe Diplomacy and Intimidate, with feats greatly supporting his ability to build reputation and spread (false) rumors about his greatness, as well as having a modicum of self-power and an extreme amount of luck and fortune to come his way. Bards and Sorcerers would be better suited to this capacity than a Wizard ever could, for obvious reasons.
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Too bad that, for a Wizard, they are one and the same.
Razmir being a super high level Wizard nearing the cusp of immortality falls apart fast when he could be a Druid or a Bard and have better tools to access his latent power and be better considered a "god."
Razmir's 'godhood' isn't about being a Wizard specifically, it's about the ability of any 19th level spellcaster to impersonate a God. Which they very much still can. Any Class at all can wreck just about anyone 4 levels below them pretty casually, and the number of adversaries around who are higher than 15th level is very small.
Nex and Geb are two extremely powerful Spellcasters who are basically at war with each other. I imagine their battles would be more legendary with access to the power and utility a Bard has compared to a Wizard.
Uh... Bards are Spontaneous, making their options for utility limited, and very limited in their ability to effect the physical world. They are also much worse than Wizards at Rituals, due to their casting stat being Cha-based rather than Int-based.
I don't think that fight makes more sense for Bards at all.
And I imagine there are numerous other in-lore "wizards" who are just basic Arcane schmucks who can sling average spells that are so easily trounced by Occult and Primal spellcasters.
Occult and Primal aren't better than Arcane. They're different, with different strengths and weaknesses. In fact, I'd argue that Arcane is unambiguously better than Primal for everything but healing. Occult and Arcane are more on par, but that's borne out by the fluff of the setting (the most powerful spellcaster to have influence in the Inner Sea is not an Arcane caster, but Baba Yaga, who is an Occult caster).