Alchemist Alchemical Alacrity After Errata Part 2

[iNickedYerKnickers]

Quote:

From Pathfinder Core Rulebook Errata (Part 2):

Page 75: Alchemical Alacrity lets you make three alchemical items, but you can't hold all three, so it's unclear what happens to the third one. Add to the end "and you automatically stow one of these new items as you create them."

Quote:

From CRB Alchemist Features (emphasis added):

Alchemical Alacrity . . .
Your comfort in concocting items is such that you can create three at a time. When using the Quick Alchemy action, you can spend up to three batches of infused reagents to make up to three alchemical items as described in that action. These items do not have to be the same.
... and ...
Quick Alchemy . . .
You swiftly mix up a short-lived alchemical item to use at a moment’s notice. You create a single alchemical item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that’s in your formula book without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn.

While the errata addresses what happens with the odd item out, it does not address the fact that the third item goes piff! at the start of the Alchemist's next turn. So, Alchemical Alacrity requires the fourth level Class Feat, Enduring Alchemy, to actually be useful.

[shroudb]

yup.

it was always bad and it still is.

it's a level 17 core feature that's completely unusable if you don't pick up specific "optional" feats.

what makes me want to headbutt the wall is that they went to the effort to change Alacrity and they didn't bother to clarify the issue with if double brew/alacrity is intended/able to be used with Perpetual stuff, which does actually have quite a murky reading.

[PlantThings]

I assumed the third item is worn for some reason even after reading the change, but the fact that it is stowed, it's not really that action efficient even with Enduring Alchemy. I'd stick to Double Brew.

[Cordell Kintner]

When they say stow I believe they mean worn, otherwise that would be making three items, then taking off your backpack, putting the item in it, and putting it back on all in one action. You're probably putting it in a bandolier.

Also, it's UP TO three, it does not have to be three items. The feat Enduring Alchemy allows for more versatile use for the items. You could make three bombs in one round, throw two and have another available the next round for a triple attack, assuming you have some already available.

Basically since it's a free ability, if you don't like it you don't have to use it.

[PlantThings]

After the errata, I wish they could have used a different word for clarity if that's what they mean.

Also, Enduring Alchemy can't be used on bombs, right? It only applies to alchemical tools and elixirs. Unless I'm mistaken, I truly wish it did. The idea of crafting bombs or any other alchemical item and having enough time (more than the usual one turn) to plan out when and how to use them sounds fun and engaging. But you know, without having to take a feat.

[shroudb]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

When they say stow I believe they mean worn, otherwise that would be making three items, then taking off your backpack, putting the item in it, and putting it back on all in one action. You're probably putting it in a bandolier.

Also, it's UP TO three, it does not have to be three items. The feat Enduring Alchemy allows for more versatile use for the items. You could make three bombs in one round, throw two and have another available the next round for a triple attack, assuming you have some already available.

Basically since it's a free ability, if you don't like it you don't have to use it.

it makes no difference if it's "up to 3" since "up to two" is Double Brew already.

so it really is only the 3rd item.

Also, no 3rd Bomb for your example. Enduring Alchemy is only elixirs+tools.

As for it "it's free so why complain", i mean, you wouldn't mind all 9th and 10th level spells being 4 actions to cast would you? "they are free abilities"! You can pick up "quickened spell" and even, dare i say, cast them then!

The notion that a very high level core ability should be useless in the majority of builds if you do not spend extra Feats to even enable its base functionality is absurd.

In short:
If a feat is 1000% required to use a base, core, ability. Then by default that feat should be given for free. Afterall, that's the very definition of a tax.

That's the default stated PF2 design: "no feat taxes"

[Quintessentially Me]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

When they say stow I believe they mean worn, otherwise that would be making three items, then taking off your backpack, putting the item in it, and putting it back on all in one action. You're probably putting it in a bandolier.

I don't disagree that would make it more reasonable, particularly since if I can act with such alacrity that I can make 3 alchemical items *and* still have time to put one into a backpack, all in 1 action, it seems odd that I can't also pull it right back out and do something with it next round and do *that* in 1 action.

But unfortunately it says "stowed". I guess we get to at least pick which container it gets stuffed into.

[Cordell Kintner]

PlantThings wrote:

After the errata, I wish they could have used a different word for clarity if that's what they mean.

Also, Enduring Alchemy can't be used on bombs, right? It only applies to alchemical tools and elixirs. Unless I'm mistaken, I truly wish it did. The idea of crafting bombs or any other alchemical item and having enough time (more than the usual one turn) to plan out when and how to use them sounds fun and engaging. But you know, without having to take a feat.

Whoops, didn't read the feat close enough.

[SuperBidi]

As much as I agree with you, Shroudb, I think this whole issue is very limited due to the level you get Alchemical Alacrity.

Not a non issue, but still a minor one.
Alchemical Alacrity should be entirely removed, in my opinion. I hardly see how you can need 3 Alchemical items at once.

[shroudb]

SuperBidi wrote:

As much as I agree with you, Shroudb, I think this whole issue is very limited due to the level you get Alchemical Alacrity.

Not a non issue, but still a minor one.
Alchemical Alacrity should be entirely removed, in my opinion. I hardly see how you can need 3 Alchemical items at once.

if anything, in my mind, it is more important due to that level.

it's a level 17 feature.

it should be powerful.

not outright unusable if you don't sink in precious class feats just to have it work at a base level.

[SuperBidi]

shroudb wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

As much as I agree with you, Shroudb, I think this whole issue is very limited due to the level you get Alchemical Alacrity.

Not a non issue, but still a minor one.
Alchemical Alacrity should be entirely removed, in my opinion. I hardly see how you can need 3 Alchemical items at once.

if anything, in my mind, it is more important due to that level.

it's a level 17 feature.

it should be powerful.

not outright unusable if you don't sink in precious class feats just to have it work at a base level.

Honestly, even with the feats, it's just plain useless. Double Brew has a clear use, as you have 3 actions per round, so there's a logic to use one to create 2 items and then 2 to use the created items. But Alchemical Alacrity just doesn't work. You need an extra action. And because now it's stowed (even if you consider it is worn), you need 5 actions. Even with the feats, you end up mostly screwed. Even with major fix, Alchemical Alacrity, the way it works now, is mostly useless.

I would have prefered a free action Quick Alchemy once per round. It would have been a real alacrity and a useful and powerful one.

[shroudb]

SuperBidi wrote:

shroudb wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

As much as I agree with you, Shroudb, I think this whole issue is very limited due to the level you get Alchemical Alacrity.

Not a non issue, but still a minor one.
Alchemical Alacrity should be entirely removed, in my opinion. I hardly see how you can need 3 Alchemical items at once.

if anything, in my mind, it is more important due to that level.

it's a level 17 feature.

it should be powerful.

not outright unusable if you don't sink in precious class feats just to have it work at a base level.

Honestly, even with the feats, it's just plain useless. Double Brew has a clear use, as you have 3 actions per round, so there's a logic to use one to create 2 items and then 2 to use the created items. But Alchemical Alacrity just doesn't work. You need an extra action. And because now it's stowed (even if you consider it is worn), you need 5 actions. Even with the feats, you end up mostly screwed. Even with major fix, Alchemical Alacrity, the way it works now, is mostly useless.

I would have prefered a free action Quick Alchemy once per round. It would have been a real alacrity and a useful and powerful one.

i bet they were thinking along the lines of "mor items with the same action =action economy booster!"

but when you have to snot only spend feats for the itmes in question to not spoil, but now you also have to spend actions to draw them, whatever action economy you gained from using the ability you are losing it from having to draw the item in question.

and that's IF we assume that they have already messed up the wording and it's "worn" and not "stowed". If it's stowed, then it's objectively WORSE (instead of being a wash) using this ability compared to not using it even WITH the feat investment.

p.s.
the solution isn't really that hard either. my own houserule as an example just gives the alchemist the ability to hold up to 3 infused items in hand alongside Alacrity.
He's a master of elixirs, it's not unwaranted to be able to hold 3 vials in his hand at level 17.

[SuperBidi]

shroudb wrote:

p.s.

the solution isn't really that hard either. my own houserule as an example just gives the alchemist the ability to hold up to 3 infused items in hand alongside Alacrity.
He's a master of...

It was the easy solution before their "fix". But even with your fix, do you think Alchemical Alacrity is really worth it?

Every time I think about taking Enduring Alchemy to maximize my action economy, I always end up with the same issue: Alchemical Alacrity allows you to create more items for more Reagents. So, if the round after the one you created the items, you realize that the situation changed to much to use the extra item, you basically lost Reagents.
I'm not against complex abilities, especially when they are high level ones, but this one seems just to hard to use for a very small gain. If I have 3 actions, I could use Double Brew. Otherwise, I'll certainly just pass.

[Zoken44]

So yeah, I don't see the need for the feat to make this work IF and only IF they mean worn and not stowed.

One of the things I do at the start of every encounter is to "remind" my party that which side my healing potions are on. At level 17, you are likely making enough items that you welcome other players to grab what they need.

[RexAliquid]

Yeah, letting the fighter grab the extra bomb when his sword would just split the ooze is a great choice, or you could just throw all three while quickened.

[shroudb]

RexAliquid wrote:

Yeah, letting the fighter grab the extra bomb when his sword would just split the ooze is a great choice, or you could just throw all three while quickened.

so the 17th level feature is to allow a -10 attack on an extremely expensive resource IF you are quickened and IF they actually errata it further to make it worn and IF you have Quick Bomber?

That just makes it instead of having 1 feat tax for Enduring to have a different one for quick bomber AND be errattaed further (since you can't quick draw stowed items) AND only works when hasted...

The amount of mental olympics to simply not say "yeah, that ability is worth 0, like literally 0"

[Zoken44]

@Shroudb Not gonna argue, it takes a lot to make it useful

@Rexaliquid: Or, if you're fighting a creature resistant to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing they could grab a bomb and do some damage, or grab an elixer to perk them up, heal themselves.

[shroudb]

but the thing is, as written now, it doesn't take a lot to "make it useful" it takes a lot to make it equal to not using it:

you spend 3 resources and 1 action to make 3 things. Then it takes 3 more actions to use those things, and at least 1 more action to "draw" that extra thing (IF and only IF they erratta it again to be worn and not stowed, mind you)

so we are at 5 actions and 3 resources for 3 elixirs.

using double brew, something that you get at level 9, you can make 3 or 4 items (your choice) in 2 actions and 3 actions to use 3 of those, so with the same actions you have:

5 actions and 3 resources for 3 elixirs OR 5 actions and 4 resources for 3 elixirs +1 left in your hand to immediately use.

So, all the "investment" you pile on is just to match the level 9 feature.

For srtarters, as errataed now it's 100% unusable (because stowed items), but even if they fix that, even after you spend your Feats to make it actually work, it still just matches up and not exceeds anything you could do already if you didn't use the feature!

[Zoken44]

That's fair.

I'm going to maintain IF fixed, it might be useful as a support function.

[Cordell Kintner]

You are seemingly misunderstanding Double Brew and Alchemical Alacrity. They are not actions you can "use", they are abilities gained that modify Quick Alchemy. Just like how you don't "Use" your weapon expertise, it just modifies your weapon attacks, or how how Evasion modifies your Reflex Saves. All Alchemical Alacrity does is allow you to choose to make a third item with Quick Alchemy.

Secondly, this is a minor nitpick but still one, it's granted at level 15 not 17. At least that's what's showing up on AoN and the most recent CRB Printing.

Third, by level 15 you will have a lot more available to help with action economy. Feats like Quick Bomber and Enduring Alchemy help, but are by far not the only available feats to help increase economy. It also allows bombers to make full use of being quickened, or a Chirurgeon can create three huge healing elixirs on the fly for their allies to make use of by just dropping two, and drinking the other. There's a lot of uses for the ability, we should think "What CAN we do with this ability" rather than "What CAN'T we do".

Finally, when the FAQ says "stow" I believe they are not saying it becomes a "stowed" item. The verb stow is used in many way to simply put things away, but was not defined in any way. For example, lets look at Quick Stow. It states that you "You Interact to stow a weapon and then Interact again to draw a readied item or weapon." This implies you put your weapon in your sheath, or some other method to store it in a way that it's what we now call "worn". What needs to be done is either change "stowed" items to something else, or define what "stowing" an item really means.

[shroudb]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

You are seemingly misunderstanding Double Brew and Alchemical Alacrity. They are not actions you can "use", they are abilities gained that modify Quick Alchemy. Just like how you don't "Use" your weapon expertise, it just modifies your weapon attacks, or how how Evasion modifies your Reflex Saves. All Alchemical Alacrity does is allow you to choose to make a third item with Quick Alchemy.

Secondly, this is a minor nitpick but still one, it's granted at level 15 not 17. At least that's what's showing up on AoN and the most recent CRB Printing.

Third, by level 15 you will have a lot more available to help with action economy. Feats like Quick Bomber and Enduring Alchemy help, but are by far not the only available feats to help increase economy. It also allows bombers to make full use of being quickened, or a Chirurgeon can create three huge healing elixirs on the fly for their allies to make use of by just dropping two, and drinking the other. There's a lot of uses for the ability, we should think "What CAN we do with this ability" rather than "What CAN'T we do".

Finally, when the FAQ says "stow" I believe they are not saying it becomes a "stowed" item. The verb stow is used in many way to simply put things away, but was not defined in any way. For example, lets look at Quick Stow. It states that you "You Interact to stow a weapon and then Interact again to draw a readied item or weapon." This implies you put your weapon in your sheath, or some other method to store it in a way that it's what we now call "worn". What needs to be done is either change "stowed" items to something else, or define what "stowing" an item really means.

a)while the verb stow is more universal, when you also happen to have a very specific gear sorting that's called "stow" i find you will be hardpressed to say that "well yeah, but this isn't the official stow in the rules, that's a different stow, please disregard that it uses the exact same term as the ones used by the rules"

b)all of those ways you describe (which are really not many, alchemist having terrible action economy in genral etcetcetc) are optional feats. And even using them it just makes the ability mimic Double brew, never outperforming it.

If optional feats are 100% required to even basically use a core ability, then those should be provided by the core chassis and not be feats. That's the whole design philosophy of PF2 isn't it? "no feat taxes"?

c)sure, drop 2 elixirs down so your allies have to spend 3 actions now to use them each. Sure sounds more efficient than just making 2 items and using them on your allies in the same turn and not using 6! more party actions for the net effect of +1 elixir.

d)i don't have an issue with Double Brew. In fact that ability actually works (unlike Alacrity that simply doesn't)

[Cordell Kintner]

Why would someone spend 3 actions to drink an elixir on the ground? One to pick up, and one to drink, exactly the same as if they drew their own elixir. Yes, they have to stride to it if they weren't near it, but you would have to stride if you were feeding elixirs to your teammates.

Yes they are "optional" but they're highly recommended to get for particular specializations. A Bomber without Quick Bomber is just nerfing themselves, and Enduring Alchemy is great for a Chirurgeon and Mutagenist. They aren't "required" for it to work, they're feats that you will likely have that help make use of the OPTION to make a third elixir.

As for the stow thing, I simply explained that I don't believe that was their intent, and stated what needs to be clarified to fix the issue. I was not suggesting we simply ignore it because it doesn't make sense.

Cordell Kintner wrote:

What needs to be done is either change "stowed" items to something else, or define what "stowing" an item really means.

If they clarify that "stowing" (the verb) does not necessarily mean it becomes "stowed" (the adverb) then there won't be an issue. They could also use a different word, or maybe change the corrected language to "you store the third item so that it is "worn", or drop it on the ground."

[PlantThings]

Unless I'm missing something, Quick Bomber vs Enduring Alchemy is an odd comparison since even without Quick Bomber, striking with bombs still functions independently. Inefficient but it still works within a lone Alchemist's single turn.

Alchemical Alacrity's third concoction is rather irrelevant by itself without involving interactions outside of the user's control or extra mechanics, Enduring Alchemy in this case. If the Alchemist had a natural way to make use of all three items before the item expires (via reaction, free action, class feature, etc.), it would be a different story.

More and more, I wish Enduring Alchemy followed the same path as Powerful Alchemy in the errata or just have its item potency duration be completely baked into Quick Alchemy. But at this point, I'm honestly content at topping off at Double Brew and have Alacrity become something completely different.

[Brew Bird]

At this point, I’d pay for a book with an unchained alchemist. This slow drip of half-fixes is agonizing. I know it’s not Paizo’s fault, there’s only so much time that can be devoted to errata, and other issues have to be addressed too. But that doesn’t make it any less frustrating.

[Quintessentially Me]

Update Alchemical Alacrity to provide one additional action, usable only in the round Alchemical Alacrity was used, and only to use one alchemical item created that round by Alchemical Alacrity. Any unused alchemical items created by Alchemical Alacrity beyond the number of free hands become stowed (or worn or whatever they intended).

[shroudb]

in short:
if you need feat support so that you can spend an action next round to draw it
why simply not bother with said ability and feat support and use the same exact action and reagent cost as drawing it to just make the item in your hand directly?

the second way not only you have more control, not only you dont need to spend feats, but you actually have Action economy gains since you can make 2 items in your hands with 1 action rather than spening 1 action to have only 1 item in your hands.

[PlantThings]

Brew Bird wrote:

At this point, I’d pay for a book with an unchained alchemist. This slow drip of half-fixes is agonizing. I know it’s not Paizo’s fault, there’s only so much time that can be devoted to errata, and other issues have to be addressed too. But that doesn’t make it any less frustrating.

Agreed, on all counts. I’d pay for that over paying the Enduring Alchemy feat tax.

[Sushewakka]

PlantThings wrote:

Brew Bird wrote:

At this point, I’d pay for a book with an unchained alchemist. This slow drip of half-fixes is agonizing. I know it’s not Paizo’s fault, there’s only so much time that can be devoted to errata, and other issues have to be addressed too. But that doesn’t make it any less frustrating.

Agreed, on all counts. I’d pay for that over paying the Enduring Alchemy feat tax.

I'd rather not encourage them to publish badly-designed mechanics so they can sell you the fix later on.

Anyway, to sum up, in order to benefit from the 3rd craft of Alchemical Alacitry as an Alchemist (no archetypes), one of these three conditions must be met:
A) You are Hasted, have the Quick Bomber feat, at least two of your crafted items are bombs, you use your Haste action to toss the bomb in your hand then Quick Bomber to retrieve then toss the bomb you stowed with Alchemical Alacrity;
B) You have the Enduring Alchemy Feat, at least one of your crafted items is an elixir or tool, and you spend two actions the next round to retrieve then use the elixir/tool;
C) An ally uses two of their actions to retrieve then use the third item you crafted.

Basically, A) requires a specific feat and an ally to spend their spell slots for you. B) results in no net gain of actions or ingredients, since the retrieve action to recover the item you crafted could be used to craft the item this round. C) forces an ally to use two of their actions to make your lvl 15 class feature useful, when they could instead be making use of their (better) lvl 15 class features.
Yeah, Alchemical Alacrity is mostly pointless. Master Proficiency in bombs and simple weapons would serve the Alchemist much better at this level.

[ottdmk]

IMHO if Alchemical Alacrity allows you to stow the third item, it should also allow you to hand the third item to the person next to you.

Even the Hasted Bomber model of Alchemical Alacrity is flawed, as there are folks who argue that as Double Brew/Alchemical Alacrity call out using Batches of Infused Reagents, you can't use either one with your Perpetual Infusions (which don't use Batches.) I know I for one have no interest in throwing away an entire Batch on a third-strike Bomb at -10...

[HumbleGamer]

ottdmk wrote:

IMHO if Alchemical Alacrity allows you to stow the third item, it should also allow you to hand the third item to the person next to you.

Even the Hasted Bomber model of Alchemical Alacrity is flawed, as there are folks who argue that as Double Brew/Alchemical Alacrity call out using Batches of Infused Reagents, you can't use either one with your Perpetual Infusions (which don't use Batches.) I know I for one have no interest in throwing away an entire Batch on a third-strike Bomb at -10...

I thought the same, but apparently you can use perpetual infusions with Double/Alchemical Alacrity ( as well as feats with additive stuff which requires you to expend batches of reagents ).

Though I don't recall what the reason was ( I asked the same a while ago on this forum ). Somebody else would eventually provide the information.